Forgive me for thinking that there is a bias against DKs and a tanky playstyle.

ak_pvp · July 2018

This isn't at all a comment on how well the class specifically is/isn't doing, frankly if you go the light destro/resto style it is doing decent on the overall leaderboard. Its a comment on balance changes that to me appear hypocritical and illogical towards certain playstles and harmful to class identities. There was a focus on build diversity in this last ESO live, but in practice it doesn't seem true. Mainly a PvP perspective, and mainly a MagDK perspective.

ESO Live:
With the comments on ESO live, we get another look at balance changes that single out DKs and other tankier playstyles in that the sloads projectile is not reflectable, this is in the same PTS that has made sloads dodgable and not break cloak. (which I agree with) Their reasoning behind this is so that it is easier to kill targets that soak up a lot of damage, and that targets that do so are the same targets that run reflect.

Also, the rune prison change. Again, its specifically targetted towards hurting tanks. Its unblockable, but not dodgable. Why? In the dev teams illogical distain for tanks, they didn't fix the problem of a meteor combo with rune.

Please explain why you feel like tanks and DKs, which have already been repetitively nerfed, needs another hard counter?

Heavy is in a worse state passively than pre buff since block cost and wrath were removed and constitution was nerfed. All of the mag classes have a meta in light, bar a few healbots. And only 2/5 of the stam classes are a guaranteed heavy, stamblade is always medium (heavy duel builds getting a nerf) and stamplar/sorc have equal footing in either depending on the player.
Block is super expensive and sacrificial to run, limiting regen and costing a very large amount despite having so many exceptions, it scales awfully cost wise and due to limiting mobility which is needed for outnumbered play
Tankier playstyles have counters in dots and other on target abilities like curse/POTL. Unblockables in certain AoEs, and then block breakers. They also have a double counter in bleeds (which is incredibly powerful in this meta.) As it is a dot that ignores resists.
I could go on about the strengths of other tankier builds like wardens over DKs, like reflect. But this isn't a nerf everyone else thread.

Cloak is a defense that suppresses all dots, stops all non pre applied single target attacks, makes you untargettable to any other ST attacks, and makes you invisible and so you can escape. This already strong skill got a better counter to sloads than reflect. 4 projectiles with caveats to it and a 2s snare removal, despite the point of reflect being to reflect a projectile.

I wouldn't mind as much if my class based passives and abilities didn't scream "tank!" and going for a non tank playstyle didn't feel like a worse version of another class. But seriously? Another thing not reflected "just because" feels like bias to me.

Now, off ESO live, and back to rune cage:

The existance of this skill is a travesty in itself. When petrify was changed to no longer be a disorient, it came with a ranged nerf, sort of fair I suppose and powerlash, a melee telegraphed ability with a 3gcd setup became dodgable.
Frags lost its CC, which I clearly disagree with, however within 2 patches, rune ended up as a 41m version that deals around 3x the damage of my fossilize and allowed all of sorcs burst to be unblockable and dodgable from range, whereas DK ended up weaker... What.
This is also one of many examples of DKs toolkit being spread out to others without receiving much back.

Wings:
This once great ability has had some serious abuse. In terms of defense it doesn't hold up at all compared to cloak, which doesn't have a limit? Its quite clear that 4 projectiles isn't enough.
Cliff racer, a clear projectile, but not reflectable... it is however absorbable by wardens shimmering shield.
Valkyn, can't be reflected since it is AoE.. but can be cloaked, wait, I thought cloak is broken by AoEs? Possible bias or just usual zos overlook?

Recently, wings was given a snare removal, it originally wasn't given an immunity because "they felt that it could be too strong." Yes. They felt it could be too strong of a mobility boost, so they decided to make it completely useless. Meanwhile they untethered shade into a teleport that could be used nearly anywhere. (I think this is a fair change) without any purposeful weakening.

Only in PTS did they add a whopping 2s to the removal, yep. A 4k cost, low reflect gets a snare removal of 2 seconds on a class that is quite slow and can't really avoid damage/snares naturally. This is less than shuffle, which can be unchained, is used on mobile classes, and still feels too low.
I'd understand if DK was some sort of tanky bastion, but not so much after the crusade the devs have had vs them. Giving a large functionality buff to an incredibly mobile class was fine, whereas giving a measly 2s immunity buff was such a hard decision. #4sforwings. #Falldmgimmunityforwings

Quickfire round:
Talons ~ Gripping shards
Old inferno ~ Hurricane
Shifting standard ~ Sleet storm
Chains ~ Frozen gate/leash
Basically all winters embrace ~ DK def/utility skills

So much shared from a DKs kit, but when they want buffs it's as if we are back in 1.5 and DK would suddenly be OP, completely ignoring the fact that the last 2 years have had stamnb and magsorc on top almost all of it.

I don't even want to be full top dog, just why can't you let the DKs be good at what the DKs are good at, a slower outsustain and pressure playstyle that for some reason. It has been nerfed to death, and is still being nerfed, yet when it comes to buffing them DK gets only partial unnerfs for the most part.

There also seems to be this strange stigma against DKs (or any other tanky build like templars, which are in the same boat completely) 1vXing by out tanking many opponents, but there is no such stigma against an NB out stealthing or out kiting the X opponents

VaranisArano · July 2018

ZOS generally doesn't like PVP players to be too tanky, especially not if they can also do damage. I mean, ZOS has been trying to dial in the balance on tanky PVPers ever since Morrowind.

ak_pvp · July 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS generally doesn't like PVP players to be too tanky, especially not if they can also do damage. I mean, ZOS has been trying to dial in the balance on tanky PVPers ever since Morrowind.

I just never understood it in the past, all playstyles could 1vX in different ways with enough skill.

I suppose in practice its more psychological, why is that 1 person sitting there with a group of 5 bashing on them and then kills them all, vs 1 person kiting and killing 5 people.

Didaco · July 2018

Wait, Rune Cage is dodgeable?

Thogard · July 2018

wrobel plays a bleed blade.

D0PAMINE · July 2018

@ak_pvp good thread.

Aliyavana · July 2018

sloads affects us all and not just tank. Really needs to be a projectile that acts like velidrith that you can just walk away from.

max_only · July 2018

Didaco wrote: »

Wait, Rune Cage is dodgeable?

The first one from the first Sorc is, the other 10 Rune Cages from the other 10 Sorcs, not so much.

Tasear · July 2018

How do you think ideally tanky playstles fit PvP gameplay? What do you wish was different?

D0PAMINE · July 2018

Tasear wrote: »

How do you think ideally tanky playstles fit PvP gameplay? What do you wish was different?

Classes like Templar and Dragonknight are not very mobile, so we tend to try to out sustain the enemy by resisting stacked bursts and snares etc, which is difficult on its own. However, it doesnt matter how much health, recovery or mitigation you incorporate, because you will still melt as if you were wearing no armor, no snare removal, break free not working and/or not using any skills whatsoever, because you cant stop it from happening

Tasear · July 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

How do you think ideally tanky playstles fit PvP gameplay? What do you wish was different?

Classes like Templar and Dragonknight are not very mobile, so we tend to try to out sustain the enemy by resisting stacked bursts and snares etc, which is difficult on its own. However, it doesnt matter how much health, recovery or mitigation you incorporate, because you will still melt as if you were wearing no armor, no snare removal, break free not working and/or not using any skills whatsoever, because you cant stop it from happening

How would you like to to move defensive to offensive? How would you like it be so feels like a good fight for everyone? What would make it so players don't feel tanky players aren't unkillable, but you still feel tanky?

Mojomonkeyman · July 2018

Tasear wrote: »

How do you think ideally tanky playstles fit PvP gameplay? What do you wish was different?

It's not really about "tanky" playstyle, it's about non-mobile, non-evasive playstyles. Block, as a defense mechanism, is falling behind compared to wards, cloak and dodgeroll (all 3 usually paired with excellent mobility).

Non-mobile/-non-cloak magicka classes in PvP already need to sacrifice more offensive power in order to use their main defense (block) to match survivability of so called "squishy" setups (magsorcs, magnbs). They cannot decide to withdraw from fights, they are stuck with whatever is coming at them. In terms of raw "PvP-survivability" blocking is actually not competitive with those "squishy" setups anymore.

Non-mobile/-non-cloak magicka classes in PvP usually have to rely on heavy armor since they can't mitigate damage by staying/getting out of range or going invisible and their favorite stat (magicka) is not scaling with defensive power (unlike magsorcs or to a magblades). Means they will have lower kill potential in the first place due to investment in either block cost reduction and/or max stamina pool of 14-15k to even be able to block occasionally in addition to breaking free. That cuts into either regen or max magicka which has to be compensated and ultimately leads to having less damage.

I want to emphasize that I am not talking about permablocking, I am talking about the use of block comparable to dodge roll - occasionally to mitigate huge burst spikes and/or get heals through. Dodge-roll as a mechanic would be in a similar position, but dodge-roll actually gets noticed for being in need of help. More and more exceptions to formerly undogable mechanics being introduced, prominent future examples being sloads and rune-cage.

The opposite is true for blocking as a defensive mechanic. Listening to the latest comments of Wrobel shows that the crusade against block is still ongoing, it is perceived as overperforming, when in fact it hasn't been for 2 DLC's anymore.

All those issues mentioned are even more concerning in no-cp environments.

Unit117 · July 2018

If you think Dks have it bad try other tanks in pvp. But it’s stupid that they have been super antitank. It’s like all that matters is dps. Tanks are supposed to absorb a lot of damage but they are giving all these cheese sets and ridiculous damage sets, cc and abilities. That make it worthless being tank.they need to stop catering to dps and realize people play other roles in this game too..

WuffyCerulei · July 2018

Fighting tanky-yet-hard-hitting players is heck. They still exist, though on a lesser level now. If a lot of people were still tanky in pvp, it would be a living nightmare.

hakan · July 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS generally doesn't like PVP players to be too tanky, especially not if they can also do damage. I mean, ZOS has been trying to dial in the balance on tanky PVPers ever since Morrowind.

Agreed. Unkillable tank that deals decent damage.

Back then people were using onslaught.

DDuke · July 2018

I've nothing against actual tanks, just the ones that also deal *** ton of damage (usually abusing sets like Sloads & Master DW bleeds) as well - which just happen to be the meta right now.

As long as those exist, I'm not too sad about Sload/Rune Cage still being a problem for them.

In my opinion ZOS should rework entirely how tanks function in PvP.

I don't think for instance that tank builds should have the same mobility as non-tanks by just having Forward Momentum on off bar (or wings next patch) - the tank playstyle should be more about "hold your ground" than "mitigate everything & delete opponents' health pools with DoTs & Dawnbreakers".

To this effect I hope ZOS significantly increases the power of static ground AoEs (e.g. Cinder Storm) & otherwise encourages defending an area rather than chasing after kills with 30k+ health & 30k mitigations.

huschdeguddzje · July 2018

I don't know what zos is thinking, those tanks mitigating a lot of damage is the whole point of heavy armor, the problem is when you've been wittering down their health for an hour and with one button press they're back at full health

Mojomonkeyman · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

I've nothing against actual tanks, just the ones that also deal *** ton of damage (usually abusing sets like Sloads & Master DW bleeds) as well - which just happen to be the meta right now.

As long as those exist, I'm not too sad about Sload/Rune Cage still being a problem for them.

In my opinion ZOS should rework entirely how tanks function in PvP.

I don't think for instance that tank builds should have the same mobility as non-tanks by just having Forward Momentum on off bar (or wings next patch) - the tank playstyle should be more about "hold your ground" than "mitigate everything & delete opponents' health pools with DoTs & Dawnbreakers".

To this effect I hope ZOS significantly increases the power of static ground AoEs (e.g. Cinder Storm) & otherwise encourages defending an area rather than chasing after kills with 30k+ health & 30k mitigations.

Whats about non-mobile/non-cloak magicka classes?

Joy_Division · July 2018

Personal opinion here, not speaking for anyone else:

It's not the devs who are biased against tanks. It's the players. The vast majority of whom invest a disproportionate amount of their scarce resources to kill other players

Devs have to cater to the desires of the customer base.

Enslaved · July 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Personal opinion here, not speaking for anyone else:

It's not the devs who are biased against tanks. It's the players. The vast majority of whom invest a disproportionate amount of their scarce resources to kill other players

Devs have to cater to the desires of the customer base.

Well I might be wrong here but arent the tanks customers of zos as well, lol

DDuke · July 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I've nothing against actual tanks, just the ones that also deal *** ton of damage (usually abusing sets like Sloads & Master DW bleeds) as well - which just happen to be the meta right now.

As long as those exist, I'm not too sad about Sload/Rune Cage still being a problem for them.

In my opinion ZOS should rework entirely how tanks function in PvP.

I don't think for instance that tank builds should have the same mobility as non-tanks by just having Forward Momentum on off bar (or wings next patch) - the tank playstyle should be more about "hold your ground" than "mitigate everything & delete opponents' health pools with DoTs & Dawnbreakers".

To this effect I hope ZOS significantly increases the power of static ground AoEs (e.g. Cinder Storm) & otherwise encourages defending an area rather than chasing after kills with 30k+ health & 30k mitigations.

Whats about non-mobile/non-cloak magicka classes?

It's a complex issue for sure.

I want to be clear here: I do think the actual "tank" playstyle does need to be more powerful - but I don't think the "kill chasing" tanks with mobility skills slotted (magicka builds have access to strong ones as well: Race Against Time, Reflective Plate, Empowering Chains, Leap, Ritual, Toppling/Explosive Charge etc) need any help.

What I'd like to see are things like:

Ash Cloud
For every enemy within the Ash Cloud, you gain 2 ultimate per second.

Lightning Flood
Increased the radius to 10m, now applies Minor Magickasteal to everyone within the radius and drains their highest resource pool by 1000/second.

etc, things that reward you for actually tanking people within an area rather than just chasing kills with high mitigation/health pool & sometimes blocking after some fool tries to burst you through that mitigation/health pool.

Mojomonkeyman · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I've nothing against actual tanks, just the ones that also deal *** ton of damage (usually abusing sets like Sloads & Master DW bleeds) as well - which just happen to be the meta right now.

As long as those exist, I'm not too sad about Sload/Rune Cage still being a problem for them.

In my opinion ZOS should rework entirely how tanks function in PvP.

I don't think for instance that tank builds should have the same mobility as non-tanks by just having Forward Momentum on off bar (or wings next patch) - the tank playstyle should be more about "hold your ground" than "mitigate everything & delete opponents' health pools with DoTs & Dawnbreakers".

To this effect I hope ZOS significantly increases the power of static ground AoEs (e.g. Cinder Storm) & otherwise encourages defending an area rather than chasing after kills with 30k+ health & 30k mitigations.

Whats about non-mobile/non-cloak magicka classes?

It's a complex issue for sure.

I want to be clear here: I do think the actual "tank" playstyle does need to be more powerful - but I don't think the "kill chasing" tanks with mobility skills slotted (magicka builds have access to strong ones as well: Race Against Time, Reflective Plate, Empowering Chains, Leap, Ritual, Toppling/Explosive Charge etc) need any help.

What I'd like to see are things like:

Ash Cloud
For every enemy within the Ash Cloud, you gain 2 ultimate per second.

Lightning Flood
Increased the radius to 10m, now applies Minor Magickasteal to everyone within the radius and drains their highest resource pool by 1000/second.

etc, things that reward you for actually tanking people within an area rather than just chasing kills with high mitigation/health pool & sometimes blocking after some fool tries to burst you through that mitigation/health pool.

I agree on re-implementing scaling mechanics to the game, would make the game a lot healthier. Disagree with the whole sentiment about non-evasive/non-mobile magicka classes needing no help. They sacrifice a lot more for survival than any mobile/cloak build in the game.

You just can't put them in the same category as stamina based "tanks that can kill", they lack the offensive toolset for that.

The_Brosteen · July 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Personal opinion here, not speaking for anyone else:

It's not the devs who are biased against tanks. It's the players. The vast majority of whom invest a disproportionate amount of their scarce resources to kill other players

Devs have to cater to the desires of the customer base.

You only have yourselves to blame

DDuke · July 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I've nothing against actual tanks, just the ones that also deal *** ton of damage (usually abusing sets like Sloads & Master DW bleeds) as well - which just happen to be the meta right now.

As long as those exist, I'm not too sad about Sload/Rune Cage still being a problem for them.

In my opinion ZOS should rework entirely how tanks function in PvP.

I don't think for instance that tank builds should have the same mobility as non-tanks by just having Forward Momentum on off bar (or wings next patch) - the tank playstyle should be more about "hold your ground" than "mitigate everything & delete opponents' health pools with DoTs & Dawnbreakers".

To this effect I hope ZOS significantly increases the power of static ground AoEs (e.g. Cinder Storm) & otherwise encourages defending an area rather than chasing after kills with 30k+ health & 30k mitigations.

Whats about non-mobile/non-cloak magicka classes?

It's a complex issue for sure.

I want to be clear here: I do think the actual "tank" playstyle does need to be more powerful - but I don't think the "kill chasing" tanks with mobility skills slotted (magicka builds have access to strong ones as well: Race Against Time, Reflective Plate, Empowering Chains, Leap, Ritual, Toppling/Explosive Charge etc) need any help.

What I'd like to see are things like:

Ash Cloud
For every enemy within the Ash Cloud, you gain 2 ultimate per second.

Lightning Flood
Increased the radius to 10m, now applies Minor Magickasteal to everyone within the radius and drains their highest resource pool by 1000/second.

etc, things that reward you for actually tanking people within an area rather than just chasing kills with high mitigation/health pool & sometimes blocking after some fool tries to burst you through that mitigation/health pool.

I agree on re-implementing scaling mechanics to the game, would make the game a lot healthier. Disagree with the whole sentiment about non-evasive/non-mobile magicka classes needing no help. They sacrifice a lot more for survival than any mobile/cloak build in the game.

You just can't put them in the same category as stamina based "tanks that can kill", they lack the offensive toolset for that.

Survival when outnumbered, yes. That's why I think they should have strong, scaling tanking skills that help them there, but limit their mobility.

I don't think current stamina "tank" builds are the beacon of balance we should aspire for.

Anne_Firehawk · July 2018

It's a lost cause, don't even try. I gave up long ago.

Wifeaggro13 · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

This isn't at all a comment on how well the class specifically is/isn't doing, frankly if you go the light destro/resto style it is doing decent on the overall leaderboard. Its a comment on balance changes that to me appear hypocritical and illogical towards certain playstles and harmful to class identities. There was a focus on build diversity in this last ESO live, but in practice it doesn't seem true. Mainly a PvP perspective, and mainly a MagDK perspective.

ESO Live:
With the comments on ESO live, we get another look at balance changes that single out DKs and other tankier playstyles in that the sloads projectile is not reflectable, this is in the same PTS that has made sloads dodgable and not break cloak. (which I agree with) Their reasoning behind this is so that it is easier to kill targets that soak up a lot of damage, and that targets that do so are the same targets that run reflect.

Also, the rune prison change. Again, its specifically targetted towards hurting tanks. Its unblockable, but not dodgable. Why? In the dev teams illogical distain for tanks, they didn't fix the problem of a meteor combo with rune.

Please explain why you feel like tanks and DKs, which have already been repetitively nerfed, needs another hard counter?
Heavy is in a worse state passively than pre buff since block cost and wrath were removed and constitution was nerfed. All of the mag classes have a meta in light, bar a few healbots. And only 2/5 of the stam classes are a guaranteed heavy, stamblade is always medium (heavy duel builds getting a nerf) and stamplar/sorc have equal footing in either depending on the player.

Block is super expensive and sacrificial to run, limiting regen and costing a very large amount despite having so many exceptions, it scales awfully cost wise and due to limiting mobility which is needed for outnumbered play

Tankier playstyles have counters in dots and other on target abilities like curse/POTL. Unblockables in certain AoEs, and then block breakers. They also have a double counter in bleeds (which is incredibly powerful in this meta.) As it is a dot that ignores resists.

I could go on about the strengths of other tankier builds like wardens over DKs, like reflect. But this isn't a nerf everyone else thread.

Cloak is a defense that suppresses all dots, stops all non pre applied single target attacks, makes you untargettable to any other ST attacks, and makes you invisible and so you can escape. This already strong skill got a better counter to sloads than reflect. 4 projectiles with caveats to it and a 2s snare removal, despite the point of reflect being to reflect a projectile.

I wouldn't mind as much if my class based passives and abilities didn't scream "tank!" and going for a non tank playstyle didn't feel like a worse version of another class. But seriously? Another thing not reflected "just because" feels like bias to me.

Now, off ESO live, and back to rune cage:

The existance of this skill is a travesty in itself. When petrify was changed to no longer be a disorient, it came with a ranged nerf, sort of fair I suppose and powerlash, a melee telegraphed ability with a 3gcd setup became dodgable.
Frags lost its CC, which I clearly disagree with, however within 2 patches, rune ended up as a 41m version that deals around 3x the damage of my fossilize and allowed all of sorcs burst to be unblockable and dodgable from range, whereas DK ended up weaker... What.
This is also one of many examples of DKs toolkit being spread out to others without receiving much back.

Wings:
This once great ability has had some serious abuse. In terms of defense it doesn't hold up at all compared to cloak, which doesn't have a limit? Its quite clear that 4 projectiles isn't enough.
Cliff racer, a clear projectile, but not reflectable... it is however absorbable by wardens shimmering shield.
Valkyn, can't be reflected since it is AoE.. but can be cloaked, wait, I thought cloak is broken by AoEs? Possible bias or just usual zos overlook?

Recently, wings was given a snare removal, it originally wasn't given an immunity because "they felt that it could be too strong." Yes. They felt it could be too strong of a mobility boost, so they decided to make it completely useless. Meanwhile they untethered shade into a teleport that could be used nearly anywhere. (I think this is a fair change) without any purposeful weakening.

Only in PTS did they add a whopping 2s to the removal, yep. A 4k cost, low reflect gets a snare removal of 2 seconds on a class that is quite slow and can't really avoid damage/snares naturally. This is less than shuffle, which can be unchained, is used on mobile classes, and still feels too low.
I'd understand if DK was some sort of tanky bastion, but not so much after the crusade the devs have had vs them. Giving a large functionality buff to an incredibly mobile class was fine, whereas giving a measly 2s immunity buff was such a hard decision. #4sforwings. #Falldmgimmunityforwings

Quickfire round:
Talons ~ Gripping shards
Old inferno ~ Hurricane
Shifting standard ~ Sleet storm
Chains ~ Frozen gate/leash
Basically all winters embrace ~ DK def/utility skills

So much shared from a DKs kit, but when they want buffs it's as if we are back in 1.5 and DK would suddenly be OP, completely ignoring the fact that the last 2 years have had stamnb and magsorc on top almost all of it.

I don't even want to be full top dog, just why can't you let the DKs be good at what the DKs are good at, a slower outsustain and pressure playstyle that for some reason. It has been nerfed to death, and is still being nerfed, yet when it comes to buffing them DK gets only partial unnerfs for the most part.

There also seems to be this strange stigma against DKs (or any other tanky build like templars, which are in the same boat completely) 1vXing by out tanking many opponents, but there is no such stigma against an NB out stealthing or out kiting the X opponents

Balance by Worbel

bg22 · July 2018

I don’t main my SS-MagDK anymore, but I absolutely agree... ALL abilities that are CLEARLY a projectile, should be reflected. The only things I don’t feel should be reflected are lighting staves, and Restos, and ultimates.

Tetrafy · July 2018

Worbel clearly isnt biased at all.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2018

I think you're right but its worse for Templars.

Savos_Saren · July 2018

In your Quickfire Round, you missed:

DK Wings ~ Defensive Stance/Spell Wall (Spell Wall is 99.9% a rip-off of DK's wings)

Also- Wrobel even admits that PVP is more directed to speed and mobility... yet still limits DKs to major expedition on a [snip] gap closer. Sure, we can get major expedition from a vampire skill (which means we're gimped with undead banes) or a psijic skill (which means we have to have the Summerset DLC).

essi2 · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

wrobel plays a bleed blade.

Wrobel only plays Clicker Games.