Add some balance to Stam v Mag - Crits on shields

CyrusArya · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

I wouldn't entirely agree with your Nightblade assessment. From my experience dueling, stamblades are on average much easier to kill, and apply less pressure than a magblade.

Why do you feel stamblades are stronger?

The game isn't balanced around duelling and duels are just one part of the PvP spectrum. Mageblade is phenomenal 1v1, but the accessibility and prevalence of its strengths falls off in small scale and open world until you get to raid pvp where it’s the best damage dealer. Stamblade is also a great class in duels but also very strong and easy to play 1vX and small scale. Much easier to get results on than mageblade. The shortcoming is that stamblade is dead weight in larger groups.

Wholistically tho, I agree. I don’t think one is clearly superior to the other. Both are amazing. Nightblade is just the best designed class and both variants excel. If only every class was like that.

Gprime31 · July 2018

Shields are fine just bring the range down to 20m for all ranged not 35-40m just stupid, they hit you 4 times before you can gap close... just dumb

jediodyn_ESO · July 2018

Ankael07 wrote: »

Whoever told you that crits are the most important thing in PVP is unaware that impenetrable trait exists

Not “the” most important thing but one of the most important for certain. That’s is why Almost every MMO since Age of Camelot (to include WoW for those of you who have played like, two MMO games ever) has tried to somewhat balance PvP with PvE by creating a set of gear that reduces Crit effectiveness.

Shields = 100% Impen for as long as you can keep them up. You can build around that to avoid having to actual wear “PvP gear” in PvP and still be incredibly defensive while having amazing burst. This is, at its core, a major disbalancibg factor between Stam classes and mag classes.

I’m not new at this game, I’ve been here since invite alpha. I PvP on both Stam and mag toons and the fact that I can jump into a bg in the same gear I use to run a dungeon on my mag Templar or Sorc and survive stacking shields under heavy dps is a joke compared to what you have to give up as a Stam toon.

Finally I’d like to point out that this is really much more of a problem in no CP PvP than in CP PvP, since CP allow you to work around impen without the same types of gear costs.

Ultimately, the devs need to pick a PvP mode to actually make an effort to make fun for Stam builds, tank builds, and mag builds. Regardless of whether that will be cp PvP or non cp PvP, it needs to be consistent. Battlegrounds as they are right now are very broken and imbalanced towards mag classes.

Tonturri · July 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Whoever told you that crits are the most important thing in PVP is unaware that impenetrable trait exists

Not “the” most important thing but one of the most important for certain. That’s is why Almost every MMO since Age of Camelot (to include WoW for those of you who have played like, two MMO games ever) has tried to somewhat balance PvP with PvE by creating a set of gear that reduces Crit effectiveness.

Shields = 100% Impen for as long as you can keep them up. You can build around that to avoid having to actual wear “PvP gear” in PvP and still be incredibly defensive while having amazing burst. This is, at its core, a major disbalancibg factor between Stam classes and mag classes.

I’m not new at this game, I’ve been here since invite alpha. I PvP on both Stam and mag toons and the fact that I can jump into a bg in the same gear I use to run a dungeon on my mag Templar or Sorc and survive stacking shields under heavy dps is a joke compared to what you have to give up as a Stam toon.

Finally I’d like to point out that this is really much more of a problem in no CP PvP than in CP PvP, since CP allow you to work around impen without the same types of gear costs.

Ultimately, the devs need to pick a PvP mode to actually make an effort to make fun for Stam builds, tank builds, and mag builds. Regardless of whether that will be cp PvP or non cp PvP, it needs to be consistent. Battlegrounds as they are right now are very broken and imbalanced towards mag classes.

Have some actual numbers.

W/full impen, crit% mitigated
27% no cp
42% cp

W/no impen, crit% mitigated (15% cp is from 37 pts into resistant)
0% no cp
15% cp

40.9k mag no cp all impen 7983 hardened ward
42.2k mag no cp divines + infused on big pieces 8238 hardened ward

47.7k mag cp all impen - 11069 hardened ward (before 23% buff)
49.1k mag cp divines + infused on big pieces 11400 hardened ward (before 23% buff)

So you can go all infused + divines to REALLY try and max out your magicka. You'll gain a grand total of...around 1.4k magicka, which is a little under 400 points worth of shield strength. Taddaaaaaa.

You can do that, oorrr you can mitigate a massive chunk of crit damage. However, this can be messed around with somewhat if you put more points into resistant - but that's a CP problem, not a sorc problem, as you said (I used 37 points into res - others put more, etc etc).

So yeah, sure, you can build around maxing out your shields. But it's most certainly not worth it and only effective against people who can't break your shields in the first place (aka lesser players who wouldn't beat you anyway).

Impen is even more important in BGs where you can't rely on CP to make up for the gaps in your build. If your opponent knows what they're doing your shields will go down, and then if you don't have a certain amount of impen you will most certainly implode next GCD.

Players running well fitted and the like mixed in with impen or whatever else is on their gear are likely doing so in the context of open world builds, where that extra dodge roll is more important than the impen because you need to evade a lot of incoming dmg from your usual group of Cyrodiil potatoes to get back into LoS or somesuch. Or, as I said, they're making up for the gaps in their armor with CP. I have no clue how many points people actually invest into resistant these days, but 37

That’s is why Almost every MMO since Age of Camelot (to include WoW for those of you who have played like, two MMO games ever) has tried to somewhat balance PvP with PvE by creating a set of gear that reduces Crit effectiveness.

This is a fully debatable point that I won't go toooo into...but Crit is RNG. One can easily argue that crit is purely a pve mechanic that really has no place in pvp, and so most games do their best to mitigate its presence in pvp scenarios to a more acceptable level. Also because crit dmg in games tends to become ridiculously high (everquest 2 stats anyone?).

You might also want to look up the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy.

TLDR You're incorrect, shield users still need impen for when their shields go down. If the shields aren't going down, you arne't doing enough damage (and that's why you get a lot of 'l2p' responses).

And THEN when you factor in that you're doing more damage against shields than you normally would due to shields having no armor res whatsoever, so you're seeing a not insignificant base damage increase against shields than you'd see against an unshielded target.

And that's how it balances out.

Just for fun I put in 51 points to dodge roll cost reduction (19%) and all well fitted (35%?). Dodge roll cost is listed at a little over 2k. No cp, 2.6k. This is in 7 pieces well fitted, 5% per piece. CC break cost is ~4.2k, ~5.4k respectively. With medium armor all well fitted, cp, roll cost is 1.2k ish, no cp 1.5k. And then when you take into considering magicka setups VASTLY lower stamina management compared to stamina builds (and that sorcs suck up stamina in order to get additional magicka sustain sometimes or whichever way you want to suck up which resource for which other resource)....

the fact that I can jump into a bg in the same gear I use to run a dungeon on my mag Templar or Sorc and survive stacking shields under heavy dps is a joke compared to what you have to give up as a Stam toon.

I wouldn't use random bgs as a measure of what's effective. I can go into a BG on my pve dps build and wreck potatos (Julianos, willpower, infernal guardian). It means absolutely nothing. In fact I did actually do that - wondered why the bads I were playing against died so fast, but I got destroyed the moment my shields went down. Realized halfway into the BG I forgot to change gear, lol. So ya got anything else you'd like me to address?

Edit: Build used was 750 CP - 51 into bastion. 5 shackle, 5 spinner, 1 domi 1 infernal guardian, all yellow quality. +1 amber plasm weapon because I couldn't be bothered to change it to willpower for that extra miniscule increase in max mag (so ~1k instead 1.4k)

melloni_aleb16_ESO · July 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

The mag sorc army got a level up.
The new ultimate argumentation is:"if you don't agree with me, you suck"

Like you people are neglecting there are tons of magsorc that can stall a fight for hours face hitting a single key.

What next? Surprisingly none came out still with a:"PUSH HIS STAMINA POOL CC-ING HIM" like every magsorc's not running around full well-fitted traited and 1300 stam rec

No, they are not running well-fitted and 1300 stam regen. You're having to extremely exaggerate to make a point shows how weak your argument is.
DKs can also block several people for hours. NBs can cloak away from zergs for hours. Temps can purge and heal for hours. Every class can turtle at will. But how much of that drops when outnumbered or going on the offense makes the difference.

DKs can also block several people for hours

stop writing ***, Dk can tank many enemies for minutes with certain builds, with 0 damage and 0 offensive skill on bars ..is a build to trolling.( there are numerous videos on the forum..see it)
you really compare it to the functioning of the shield stacking?
Do not you feel ridiculous to defend that class again?

have at least the decency to not post anything to defense magicka sorc

NBs can cloak away from zergs for hours

with 8k of magicka ? perma cloak on Nb " stamina " ? ....keep playing with the magicka sorc -.- (Furthermore , almost all magicka Sorc use potions with magicka + detection ....did you know that? )

Ragnaroek93 · July 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Stamina classes need love. PvP heavily favors mag builds and mag builds can get around one of the most time proven important factors in PvP (Crit hits) by stacking shields is a huge part of this.

Why can’t shields take crits? Look at the forums full of people saying “don’t play Stam__” or “mag__is better” or look at the BG data. 8/10 games it’s the Mag classes dominating the game.

You could at least try to be reasonable with nerf suggestions.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2018

Rianai wrote: »

Shields don't benefit from resistances, so they usually take already more dmg than an unshielded player, unless the player is naked ...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem with shields is that the same stat that makes them large is the same stat that defines how powerful the player can attack. Shield magnitude ought to scale off of health or (health+stam) or (Health+mag). The advantage to tank should go toward the tank not toward a DD and I've been saying this for years.

The same applies to heals ...
If dmg and survivability would rule each other out, solo play would be dead.

Actually you make a point for me that I normally make. Why should heals and damage be the same stat as well? They certainly are not on other games. Tanks do not get the luxuries you are describing.

Aznox · July 2018

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

ZOS_Mika · July 2018

We have recently removed a handful of comments that were baiting and unnecessary. It is fine to disagree, but please keep this discussion free of insults. Thank you for your understanding.

Tonturri · July 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Shields don't benefit from resistances, so they usually take already more dmg than an unshielded player, unless the player is naked ...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem with shields is that the same stat that makes them large is the same stat that defines how powerful the player can attack. Shield magnitude ought to scale off of health or (health+stam) or (Health+mag). The advantage to tank should go toward the tank not toward a DD and I've been saying this for years.

The same applies to heals ...
If dmg and survivability would rule each other out, solo play would be dead.

Actually you make a point for me that I normally make. Why should heals and damage be the same stat as well? They certainly are not on other games. Tanks do not get the luxuries you are describing.

You apparently didn't read the post you're quoting that tells you why heals and dmg should be the same/similar stat at the very end. Goodness gracious.

"Why should heals and damage be the same stat as well?" - For solo/small groups. It needs to be this way, at least to some degree, so that 1) People don't have to switch a whole bunch of junk around just to switch roles in pve and 2) So that Solo and small groups in pvp areas don't get wrecked without a chance vs superior numbers. Imagine if, in order to retain the ability to kill your opponent in a reasonable amount of time as a stamina character, your Vigor healed for nothing, Rally healed for nothing, you couldn't dodge roll, couldn't block, etc. I highly recommend taking a look at the in-progress game Camelot Unchained, which has a focus on something similar to Cyrodiil, but they're (IIRC) using the exact thing you're asking for - and it's making solo or small group play nearly impossible. You can't do anything at all without a whole bunch of people backing you up. A scout can only scout, no damage, no healing, no other group support...A game where I have to group up or bust is not the type of game I want to play.

It'd also suck if I, a pure damage spec, solo ran into a pure heal spec in pvp (let's pretend that the healer is wandering around. Maybe they're picking flowers, who knows). What kind of godawful pvp experience would that be if they can do nothing to me but heal and I can do nothing but try (and likely fail, assuming they possess the ability to press buttons) to kill them? This is why going balls-to-the-wall 'purity of purpose' or w/e you'd like to call it doesn't often work out in small scale pvp. I can't heal but they can't hit me. They can't hit me but they can heal.

"They certainly are not on other games." - And your evidence is...where? There are games out there that have defensive mechanics allowing solo players to deal damage and heal/defend. Every single class in gw2 has a designated heal. Disc priests in WoW heal by dealing damage, and feral druids can dish out some decent (or amazing, whether feral or guardian spec) damage while still having access to decent HoTs/class heals. Now if you were questioning how this all scales and asserting that perhaps ESO has gone a bit too far into the 'stack 1-2 things and doing so gives you a lot', then maybe that'd go somewhere. Some people do want soft caps back, and I've seen several posts on the forums asserting that investing into health is a waste of time in pvp after a certain point, excluding niche builds such as the long gone blazing shield templar.

"Tanks do not get the same luxuries." - Yes they do, to the same degree that a DPS going absolute, 100% into damage and slotting no survivability (because, see, ESO also places value on skill slots - slotting a damage skill vs a healing or defensive skill is an important choice to make). It feels like you're comparing players who shove 100% into tanking (like trials tanking) with pvp players, who have more well rounded builds. You can build a tankier setup in pvp and still output damage. Of course if you don't slot any dmg skills and shove everything into health you won't, for obvious reasons, deal any damage. But the DPS that shoves everything into offense and doesn't slot Vigor/Rally/press dodge roll isn't gonna be living very long, either.

I can put on heavy armor, 1h/shield and still kill people in pvp. I can even do the same in pve, where I've managed to get up to 100k aoe dps on a sap tank.

Swimguy · July 2018

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

Swimguy · July 2018

what if we made shields shield more damage but it was like a HoT?

8k shield every 1.5 seconds for 6 seconds for a 24k tooltip?

Priyasekarssk · July 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Stamina classes need love. PvP heavily favors mag builds and mag builds can get around one of the most time proven important factors in PvP (Crit hits) by stacking shields is a huge part of this.

Why can’t shields take crits? Look at the forums full of people saying “don’t play Stam__” or “mag__is better” or look at the BG data. 8/10 games it’s the Mag classes dominating the game.

L2P issue. Why bothering thread space ? Stamina dominates PVP and everyone knows it . There are more pressing issues.

Priyasekarssk · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because they 1) Can't crit 2) Take unresisted damage.

If you wanted them crittable, they would have to be able to crit too, like healing/health. And unresisted damage multiplied by crit would be super high, and kill the shields.

Why? Because mag users can’t effectively heal with their primary resource and damage pool? Obviously they can.

There is an imbalance in Stam v mag Pvp. Because shields allow casters a spammable technique that allows then to avoid the Crit and impenetrable balancing mechanic, shields as they are now are badly balance, particularly in no CP PvP which is all battlegrounds

Magsorcs, the main user of shields don't have good healing. Powersurge is so so, degen is bad, and pets are... pets... So the only heal they have is based of a shield.

I don't like shields, simply because they don't have a soft counter like all the other defenses, only oblivion. That means shields are "easy tier." However, your points are completely incorrect.

There isn't a StamVMag imbalance, on either side.

Magsorc>Stamsorc
MagNB<StamNB
MagDK>StamDK
Magden<Stamden
Magplar=Stamplar. (Situational)

And the top 3 classes, Stamden, Magsorc and StamNB have 2 stamina in them. The imbalances are almost always the top vs the bottom Its almost always a magsorc/NB at the top3 , and a DK and templar at the bottom 3.

I wouldn't entirely agree with your Nightblade assessment. From my experience dueling, stamblades are on average much easier to kill, and apply less pressure than a magblade.

Why do you feel stamblades are stronger?

Poisons, shield breaker and increased stealth /mobility/stamina with medium armor. You literally need to bump into him for detection. Stam NB is stronger than magicka NB . CC breaks are a lot harder with poisons on magicka builds . Magicka only defense is shields.
stamblades are on average ?

Priyasekarssk · July 2018

Swimguy wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

60k mag on sorc you are near invincible ? Please make a magicka sorc and prove it. Forum posts are useless.
I never seen any top PVP pros with more than 45k magicka. Even builds more than 40k is very rare. They are not even playing magicka sorcs. There is a reason behind it as well.

Sun7dance · July 2018

The main problem for me is the unbalance between range (easy) and melee (especially in pvp very hard).

As melee you don't do any damage on range.
Your only chance is to get very close to your target (5m). Thx to ZOS for nerfing gap closers btw.

As a magsorc you don't care about. Melee or range you always do the same damage.

That's totally unbalanced in my opinion!

Range classes should do less damage at least, when they are close to the target.

To be fair, snipers are included as well!

Ender1310 · July 2018

Lets be honest. Like brutally honest. In the sloads/runecage meta a DK blocking for hours is fodder. Runecage is unblockable. Sloads..well. You know.

Ender1310 · July 2018

46k is the norm for a mag sorc a good one anyway. Over 50 k your sacrificing something most of the time. 46k and your good on defence and offense.

Vahrokh · July 2018

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

60k mag on sorc you are near invincible ? Please make a magicka sorc and prove it. Forum posts are useless.
I never seen any top PVP pros with more than 45k magicka. Even builds more than 40k is very rare. They are not even playing magicka sorcs. There is a reason behind it as well.

60k is a crappy "all out magicka" build, it shows how much he knows about sorcs PvP. 42-45k is where real PvP is at. These stats are the compromise required to get the other stats to acceptable PvP levels.

Swimguy · July 2018

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

60k mag on sorc you are near invincible ? Please make a magicka sorc and prove it. Forum posts are useless.
I never seen any top PVP pros with more than 45k magicka. Even builds more than 40k is very rare. They are not even playing magicka sorcs. There is a reason behind it as well.

i dont research builds that im never going to play. either way its overpowered despite if i know how to build the class or not.

Swimguy · July 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

60k mag on sorc you are near invincible ? Please make a magicka sorc and prove it. Forum posts are useless.
I never seen any top PVP pros with more than 45k magicka. Even builds more than 40k is very rare. They are not even playing magicka sorcs. There is a reason behind it as well.

60k is a crappy "all out magicka" build, it shows how much he knows about sorcs PvP. 42-45k is where real PvP is at. These stats are the compromise required to get the other stats to acceptable PvP levels.

yea all i know is that they hit way too hard for the defense mobility and ease of use.i never miss light attack weave on my magblade and it makes killing people easy if they arent fully buffed. only place i notice i cant weave my light attacks is melee.

lag and the horrendous "kiting" where people just run around in erratic circles and you miss like half abilities. if zos fixed the lag or how hitboxs work for people who are lagging etc then shields might not b a big deal for stam but otherwise its pretty gay.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

60k mag on sorc you are near invincible ? Please make a magicka sorc and prove it. Forum posts are useless.
I never seen any top PVP pros with more than 45k magicka. Even builds more than 40k is very rare. They are not even playing magicka sorcs. There is a reason behind it as well.

60k is a crappy "all out magicka" build, it shows how much he knows about sorcs PvP. 42-45k is where real PvP is at. These stats are the compromise required to get the other stats to acceptable PvP levels.

What's wrong with your build? 50k+ is easily achievable without compromising a thing.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

60k mag on sorc you are near invincible ? Please make a magicka sorc and prove it. Forum posts are useless.
I never seen any top PVP pros with more than 45k magicka. Even builds more than 40k is very rare. They are not even playing magicka sorcs. There is a reason behind it as well.

60k is a crappy "all out magicka" build, it shows how much he knows about sorcs PvP. 42-45k is where real PvP is at. These stats are the compromise required to get the other stats to acceptable PvP levels.

What's wrong with your build? 50k+ is easily achievable without compromising a thing.

Swimguy wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As a stam user i think crit-immune shields (like all the other exceptions/quirks to general mechanics) is a good thing because it adds depth to build choices, for example if you are in a strong shield-stacking meta, you know you should not focus your offense on crit and penetration too much.
But when the meta shifts, good players will identify the opportunity to reintegrate more crit and penetration into their build.

Small quirks of asymmetrical balance like that allow knowledgeable players to get an edge through meta-countering and will help the game self-balance with less developer intervention.

if shields arent changed the meta will never shift from shield stacking. if you have 60k mag on sorc you are near invincible. and its not even hard to get...

60k mag on sorc you are near invincible ? Please make a magicka sorc and prove it. Forum posts are useless.
I never seen any top PVP pros with more than 45k magicka. Even builds more than 40k is very rare. They are not even playing magicka sorcs. There is a reason behind it as well.

60k is a crappy "all out magicka" build, it shows how much he knows about sorcs PvP. 42-45k is where real PvP is at. These stats are the compromise required to get the other stats to acceptable PvP levels.

yea all i know is that they hit way too hard for the defense mobility and ease of use.i never miss light attack weave on my magblade and it makes killing people easy if they arent fully buffed. only place i notice i cant weave my light attacks is melee.

lag and the horrendous "kiting" where people just run around in erratic circles and you miss like half abilities. if zos fixed the lag or how hitboxs work for people who are lagging etc then shields might not b a big deal for stam but otherwise its pretty gay.

60k is a crappy build because it has 3 slots on each bar wasted at the very least and only offensive they will retain are either too delayed and telegraphed to be meaningful and it doesn't hit that much harder compared to 40~53k range builds to justify 60k and the expense of skillslots.

Micah_Bayer · July 2018

ChildOfLight wrote: »

The mag sorc army got a level up.
The new ultimate argumentation is:"if you don't agree with me, you suck"

Like you people are neglecting there are tons of magsorc that can stall a fight for hours face hitting a single key.

What next? Surprisingly none came out still with a:"PUSH HIS STAMINA POOL CC-ING HIM" like every magsorc's not running around full well-fitted traited and 1300 stam rec

No sorc is wearing well fitted lol

Micah_Bayer · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Complaining about shields is the hallmark of a new PvPer. What they see is that the sorc never takes any actual damage because the shields absorb it all. What they don’t see is that if they do get past the shields, the poor mag sorc explodes. This polarizes the outcomes, leading many to believe that mag sorcs are either immortal or free kills, but never in between.

If you can’t get past a sorcs shields don’t worry, every time you force them to recast that’s another second that they aren’t doing damage and are closer to running out of Magicka.

Rune cage, and the sorc execute + curse on top of a sloads build, is another story though and should be looked at.

It’s the way of ESO. Sorc is a potato mashing class, and they do well against multiple new players.

Said new players come here with all of their balancing ‘expertise’ and make pointless comments.

Eventually they get smart enough to equip 7th Legion, heavy armor, and 5K weapon damage. They learn to LOS, dodge roll, and vigor. They equip speed jewels, Then they take Sorcs apart in seconds.

That actually doesn't work against sorcs. Sorcs remain immortal while they stack shields, and they wait until you no longer have CC immunity then they instagib you with their no-counterplay combo.

For 7th Legion to proc you need to be actively taking damage. I was using this set until I encountered this issue.

The one combo insta gib requires an ultimate. You cant spam an ultimate unlike a NB can

Sky_WK · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Complaining about shields is the hallmark of a new PvPer. What they see is that the sorc never takes any actual damage because the shields absorb it all. What they don’t see is that if they do get past the shields, the poor mag sorc explodes. This polarizes the outcomes, leading many to believe that mag sorcs are either immortal or free kills, but never in between.

If you can’t get past a sorcs shields don’t worry, every time you force them to recast that’s another second that they aren’t doing damage and are closer to running out of Magicka.

Rune cage, and the sorc execute + curse on top of a sloads build, is another story though and should be looked at.

It’s the way of ESO. Sorc is a potato mashing class, and they do well against multiple new players.

Said new players come here with all of their balancing ‘expertise’ and make pointless comments.

Eventually they get smart enough to equip 7th Legion, heavy armor, and 5K weapon damage. They learn to LOS, dodge roll, and vigor. They equip speed jewels, Then they take Sorcs apart in seconds.

That actually doesn't work against sorcs. Sorcs remain immortal while they stack shields, and they wait until you no longer have CC immunity then they instagib you with their no-counterplay combo.

For 7th Legion to proc you need to be actively taking damage. I was using this set until I encountered this issue.

Dude you have got to stop posting in the PVP forums.

Biro123 · July 2018

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

The mag sorc army got a level up.
The new ultimate argumentation is:"if you don't agree with me, you suck"

Like you people are neglecting there are tons of magsorc that can stall a fight for hours face hitting a single key.

What next? Surprisingly none came out still with a:"PUSH HIS STAMINA POOL CC-ING HIM" like every magsorc's not running around full well-fitted traited and 1300 stam rec

No sorc is wearing well fitted lol

Yeah they are lol

Minalan · July 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

I wouldn't entirely agree with your Nightblade assessment. From my experience dueling, stamblades are on average much easier to kill, and apply less pressure than a magblade.

Why do you feel stamblades are stronger?

The game isn't balanced around duelling and duels are just one part of the PvP spectrum. Mageblade is phenomenal 1v1, but the accessibility and prevalence of its strengths falls off in small scale and open world until you get to raid pvp where it’s the best damage dealer. Stamblade is also a great class in duels but also very strong and easy to play 1vX and small scale. Much easier to get results on than mageblade. The shortcoming is that stamblade is dead weight in larger groups.

Wholistically tho, I agree. I don’t think one is clearly superior to the other. Both are amazing. Nightblade is just the best designed class and both variants excel. If only every class was like that.

Biro123 wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

The mag sorc army got a level up.
The new ultimate argumentation is:"if you don't agree with me, you suck"

Like you people are neglecting there are tons of magsorc that can stall a fight for hours face hitting a single key.

What next? Surprisingly none came out still with a:"PUSH HIS STAMINA POOL CC-ING HIM" like every magsorc's not running around full well-fitted traited and 1300 stam rec

No sorc is wearing well fitted lol

Yeah they are lol

The EU people like Malcolm do.

But that’s a completely different server and PVP culture there. You don’t get double incapped out of stealth by nightblade gank teams every time you leave a keep.

I tried it once until I got hit with a 19.6K leap. Then I went back to crit resistance.

Priyasekarssk · July 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

I wouldn't entirely agree with your Nightblade assessment. From my experience dueling, stamblades are on average much easier to kill, and apply less pressure than a magblade.

Why do you feel stamblades are stronger?

The game isn't balanced around duelling and duels are just one part of the PvP spectrum. Mageblade is phenomenal 1v1, but the accessibility and prevalence of its strengths falls off in small scale and open world until you get to raid pvp where it’s the best damage dealer. Stamblade is also a great class in duels but also very strong and easy to play 1vX and small scale. Much easier to get results on than mageblade. The shortcoming is that stamblade is dead weight in larger groups.

Wholistically tho, I agree. I don’t think one is clearly superior to the other. Both are amazing. Nightblade is just the best designed class and both variants excel. If only every class was like that.

Lol. Strange. NB are invaluable in group. Just debuff everyone.

Sylosi · July 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

Nightblade is just the best designed class and both variants excel. If only every class was like that.

Nightblade is an example of poor design, at least for something like Cyrodil, what you call "excelling", in a lot cases is simply a class that has certain mechanics that completely go against core game design principles like risk vs reward.