Add some balance to Stam v Mag - Crits on shields

jediodyn_ESO · July 2018

Stamina classes need love. PvP heavily favors mag builds and mag builds can get around one of the most time proven important factors in PvP (Crit hits) by stacking shields is a huge part of this.

Why can’t shields take crits? Look at the forums full of people saying “don’t play Stam__” or “mag__is better” or look at the BG data. 8/10 games it’s the Mag classes dominating the game.

melloni_aleb16_ESO · July 2018

This is elder magicka Sorc online ..

What are the stamina classes?

Tonturri · July 2018

Bear with me here, but I think the reasoning behind shields being uncrittable is that the shields themselves cannot crit.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2018

I think the problem with shields is that the same stat that makes them large is the same stat that defines how powerful the player can attack. Shield magnitude ought to scale off of health or (health+stam) or (Health+mag). The advantage to tank should go toward the tank not toward a DD and I've been saying this for years.

jediodyn_ESO · July 2018

Tonturri wrote: »

Bear with me here, but I think the reasoning behind shields being uncrittable is that the shields themselves cannot crit.

That would be terrible reasoning. Mag classes don’t need to choose between strong shields OR heals, they still get both, plus they still can, and often do choose armor over damage, just like Stam, except they can work around the need for the “impen” PvP stat that Stam classes have to give up for.

Rianai · July 2018

Shields don't benefit from resistances, so they usually take already more dmg than an unshielded player, unless the player is naked ...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem with shields is that the same stat that makes them large is the same stat that defines how powerful the player can attack. Shield magnitude ought to scale off of health or (health+stam) or (Health+mag). The advantage to tank should go toward the tank not toward a DD and I've been saying this for years.

The same applies to heals ...
If dmg and survivability would rule each other out, solo play would be dead.

Tonturri · July 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Bear with me here, but I think the reasoning behind shields being uncrittable is that the shields themselves cannot crit.

That would be terrible reasoning. Mag classes don’t need to choose between strong shields OR heals, they still get both, plus they still can, and often do choose armor over damage, just like Stam, except they can work around the need for the “impen” PvP stat that Stam classes have to give up for.

Yes they do - more or less to the same extent stamina builds do. Stam setups damage and healing scales off both weapon damage and max stam. Spell dmg > magicka for dmg, but spell damage contributes jack to shield strength.

I don't know where the idea that magicka builds (or sorcerers, since people complain about them the most) are the only ones who can 'build for just 1-2 things and get EVERYTHING!' because literally every other build works almost the exact same way.

Most mag builds still use impen, and/or mix in some other trait in there (I'm seeing more and more well-fitted).

If you REALLY want 'balance', let shields be penetrable but benefit from armor res and blocking reducing incoming dmg, let shields be crit but allow shields to crit, let shields be defilable but benefit from major/minor mending/vitality, and so on.

Believe me when I say that you do not want that to happen, ever. I am, however, interested in your reasoning as to why a defensive mechanism that doesn't benefit from crit should suffer from crits.

Edit: I'm mostly seeing bgs dominated by magsorcs, specifically, which is more than likely due to Rune Prison...which is going to be nerfed more in the future (or at least, based on discussion in the class rep Sorc discord).

CyrusArya · July 2018

Shields can’t be crit on cus they can’t crit themselves. They would be literally useless if they could take crits because incoming damage would always outpace shielding per global cooldown. At any rate, if you are struggling to break shields on a stam build, that’s really a l2p issue. Stam builds are best equipped to tear down shields aside from the mageblade.

ItsNebula · July 2018

Sounds like a L2P issue.

If youre a stambuild, and cant burn through shields.. sorry to be the bearer of bad news but.. youre just bad.

Shields themselves cant crit, so why should damage crit on them?
Using shields also takes time off of being on the defensive. And 90% of the time, shield relying players (Such as my MagSorc, and MANY other MagSorcs, MagBlades etc) are squishy and very easy to kill without them.
Once you L2P, and realize that you need to wait for a burst window, shield users are easy to kill. Mag toons are already pretty s'it solo with all the zerglings running around, where taking 30k+ dmg per second isnt uncommon.

Wait for the shield to drop, pop a CC, ult then execute. Not that hard to fight against a shield user. If MagSorcs can beat other MagSorcs... Harness v Harness.. then Stam toons can EASILY beat a shield user.

jediodyn_ESO · July 2018

Saying “shields should Crit if they can be Crit” is like saying “shuffle should Crit to make the dodge chance %45” or that momentum should Crit to provide increased speed”.

ak_pvp · July 2018

Because they 1) Can't crit 2) Take unresisted damage.

If you wanted them crittable, they would have to be able to crit too, like healing/health. And unresisted damage multiplied by crit would be super high, and kill the shields.

jediodyn_ESO · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because they 1) Can't crit 2) Take unresisted damage.

If you wanted them crittable, they would have to be able to crit too, like healing/health. And unresisted damage multiplied by crit would be super high, and kill the shields.

Why? Because mag users can’t effectively heal with their primary resource and damage pool? Obviously they can.

There is an imbalance in Stam v mag Pvp. Because shields allow casters a spammable technique that allows then to avoid the Crit and impenetrable balancing mechanic, shields as they are now are badly balance, particularly in no CP PvP which is all battlegrounds

arkansas_ESO · July 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Look at the forums full of people saying “don’t play Stam__” or “mag__is better”

lol where

minus mag sorc, it's been public consensus that stam>magic for a while now

paallterrain148 · July 2018

You can't compare healing to wards. That's not apples to apples.

Wards increase your effective HP. Healing does not. When damage is as high as it is, you have to be able to survive the burst to let healing work.

Burst right now is crazy high, especially magsorcs. Of notable mention are magnbs, and magdks who all offer unavoidable burst. Stamwarden burst is also disgusting, but they lack the unblockable/undodgeable CC.

Swimguy · July 2018

ItsNebula wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue.

If youre a stambuild, and cant burn through shields.. sorry to be the bearer of bad news but.. youre just bad.

Shields themselves cant crit, so why should damage crit on them?
Using shields also takes time off of being on the defensive. And 90% of the time, shield relying players (Such as my MagSorc, and MANY other MagSorcs, MagBlades etc) are squishy and very easy to kill without them.
Once you L2P, and realize that you need to wait for a burst window, shield users are easy to kill. Mag toons are already pretty s'it solo with all the zerglings running around, where taking 30k+ dmg per second isnt uncommon.

Wait for the shield to drop, pop a CC, ult then execute. Not that hard to fight against a shield user. If MagSorcs can beat other MagSorcs... Harness v Harness.. then Stam toons can EASILY beat a shield user.

LOLOL since when are ranged mages supposed to have the highest value defense ability and crazy damage. l2 kite. gap closers need nerf yes but this is ZOS so..........

Thogard · July 2018

Complaining about shields is the hallmark of a new PvPer. What they see is that the sorc never takes any actual damage because the shields absorb it all. What they don’t see is that if they do get past the shields, the poor mag sorc explodes. This polarizes the outcomes, leading many to believe that mag sorcs are either immortal or free kills, but never in between.

If you can’t get past a sorcs shields don’t worry, every time you force them to recast that’s another second that they aren’t doing damage and are closer to running out of Magicka.

Rune cage, and the sorc execute + curse on top of a sloads build, is another story though and should be looked at.

WrathOfInnos · July 2018

I’m fine with crits on shields as soon as shields benefit from resistances. Also shields should be able to crit to become larger shields (just like heals do). Until then I’m good with the current balance.

Tonturri · July 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Saying “shields should Crit if they can be Crit” is like saying “shuffle should Crit to make the dodge chance %45” or that momentum should Crit to provide increased speed”.

Do you have anything actually backing up your assertions? Some sort of analysis, maybe? Examples using in-game numbers? All of your posts are full of assertions with nothing backing them up or comparisons treating two totally different things (shields and dodge mechanics) as the exact same defensive mechanic. Have you considered that one cannot crit against dodge chance? Or that snares don't 'crit'? Gee, it's almost like there's some sort of pattern here - almost like things that crit can be crit against and things you can't crit against don't crit.

Snares don't crit and there are no dodge reduction mechanics in the game.

Minalan · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Complaining about shields is the hallmark of a new PvPer. What they see is that the sorc never takes any actual damage because the shields absorb it all. What they don’t see is that if they do get past the shields, the poor mag sorc explodes. This polarizes the outcomes, leading many to believe that mag sorcs are either immortal or free kills, but never in between.

If you can’t get past a sorcs shields don’t worry, every time you force them to recast that’s another second that they aren’t doing damage and are closer to running out of Magicka.

Rune cage, and the sorc execute + curse on top of a sloads build, is another story though and should be looked at.

It’s the way of ESO. Sorc is a potato mashing class, and they do well against multiple new players.

Said new players come here with all of their balancing ‘expertise’ and make pointless comments.

Eventually they get smart enough to equip 7th Legion, heavy armor, and 5K weapon damage. They learn to LOS, dodge roll, and vigor. They equip speed jewels, Then they take Sorcs apart in seconds.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

This is a complete L2P issue. If you are a stamina build and can't destroy shields with 1 hit, you need to sort out your build there. Even tank builds can wreck shields and sorcs when played right. Hell, even magicka builds can wreck shields so easy.

Feanor · July 2018

Can we nerf snare immunity for stam then too?

Biro123 · July 2018

People just don't get it.
There are multiple different defense mechanics in this game. All work in different ways and all have their strengths and weaknesses.
Complaining that one attack stat doesn't help Vs one defence is kind of dumb unless you want all defences to eventually work in exactly the same way and all attack stats to overpower all kinds of defence.

ChildOfLight · July 2018

The mag sorc army got a level up.
The new ultimate argumentation is:"if you don't agree with me, you suck"

Like you people are neglecting there are tons of magsorc that can stall a fight for hours face hitting a single key.

What next? Surprisingly none came out still with a:"PUSH HIS STAMINA POOL CC-ING HIM" like every magsorc's not running around full well-fitted traited and 1300 stam rec

Ankael07 · July 2018

Whoever told you that crits are the most important thing in PVP is unaware that impenetrable trait exists

oxygen_thief · July 2018

ChildOfLight wrote: »

The mag sorc army got a level up.
The new ultimate argumentation is:"if you don't agree with me, you suck"

Like you people are neglecting there are tons of magsorc that can stall a fight for hours face hitting a single key.

What next? Surprisingly none came out still with a:"PUSH HIS STAMINA POOL CC-ING HIM" like every magsorc's not running around full well-fitted traited and 1300 stam rec

you will neglect an army of dks and wardens which dance with noobs around rocks and trees in cyro? lets nerf stamina classes they are too tanky

Lord-Otto · July 2018

ChildOfLight wrote: »

The mag sorc army got a level up.
The new ultimate argumentation is:"if you don't agree with me, you suck"

Like you people are neglecting there are tons of magsorc that can stall a fight for hours face hitting a single key.

What next? Surprisingly none came out still with a:"PUSH HIS STAMINA POOL CC-ING HIM" like every magsorc's not running around full well-fitted traited and 1300 stam rec

No, they are not running well-fitted and 1300 stam regen. You're having to extremely exaggerate to make a point shows how weak your argument is.
DKs can also block several people for hours. NBs can cloak away from zergs for hours. Temps can purge and heal for hours. Every class can turtle at will. But how much of that drops when outnumbered or going on the offense makes the difference.

ak_pvp · July 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because they 1) Can't crit 2) Take unresisted damage.

If you wanted them crittable, they would have to be able to crit too, like healing/health. And unresisted damage multiplied by crit would be super high, and kill the shields.

Why? Because mag users can’t effectively heal with their primary resource and damage pool? Obviously they can.

There is an imbalance in Stam v mag Pvp. Because shields allow casters a spammable technique that allows then to avoid the Crit and impenetrable balancing mechanic, shields as they are now are badly balance, particularly in no CP PvP which is all battlegrounds

Magsorcs, the main user of shields don't have good healing. Powersurge is so so, degen is bad, and pets are... pets... So the only heal they have is based of a shield.

I don't like shields, simply because they don't have a soft counter like all the other defenses, only oblivion. That means shields are "easy tier." However, your points are completely incorrect.

There isn't a StamVMag imbalance, on either side.

Magsorc>Stamsorc
MagNB<StamNB
MagDK>StamDK
Magden<Stamden
Magplar=Stamplar. (Situational)

And the top 3 classes, Stamden, Magsorc and StamNB have 2 stamina in them. The imbalances are almost always the top vs the bottom Its almost always a magsorc/NB at the top3 , and a DK and templar at the bottom 3.

wozborne · July 2018

Use Sheildbreaker if they give you so much trouble, that’s literally all it takes to kill a magsorc.

Septimus_Magna · July 2018

Just equip shieldbreaker bro

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Complaining about shields is the hallmark of a new PvPer. What they see is that the sorc never takes any actual damage because the shields absorb it all. What they don’t see is that if they do get past the shields, the poor mag sorc explodes. This polarizes the outcomes, leading many to believe that mag sorcs are either immortal or free kills, but never in between.

If you can’t get past a sorcs shields don’t worry, every time you force them to recast that’s another second that they aren’t doing damage and are closer to running out of Magicka.

Rune cage, and the sorc execute + curse on top of a sloads build, is another story though and should be looked at.

It’s the way of ESO. Sorc is a potato mashing class, and they do well against multiple new players.

Said new players come here with all of their balancing ‘expertise’ and make pointless comments.

Eventually they get smart enough to equip 7th Legion, heavy armor, and 5K weapon damage. They learn to LOS, dodge roll, and vigor. They equip speed jewels, Then they take Sorcs apart in seconds.

That actually doesn't work against sorcs. Sorcs remain immortal while they stack shields, and they wait until you no longer have CC immunity then they instagib you with their no-counterplay combo.

For 7th Legion to proc you need to be actively taking damage. I was using this set until I encountered this issue.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because they 1) Can't crit 2) Take unresisted damage.

If you wanted them crittable, they would have to be able to crit too, like healing/health. And unresisted damage multiplied by crit would be super high, and kill the shields.

Why? Because mag users can’t effectively heal with their primary resource and damage pool? Obviously they can.

There is an imbalance in Stam v mag Pvp. Because shields allow casters a spammable technique that allows then to avoid the Crit and impenetrable balancing mechanic, shields as they are now are badly balance, particularly in no CP PvP which is all battlegrounds

Magsorcs, the main user of shields don't have good healing. Powersurge is so so, degen is bad, and pets are... pets... So the only heal they have is based of a shield.

I don't like shields, simply because they don't have a soft counter like all the other defenses, only oblivion. That means shields are "easy tier." However, your points are completely incorrect.

There isn't a StamVMag imbalance, on either side.

Magsorc>Stamsorc
MagNB<StamNB
MagDK>StamDK
Magden<Stamden
Magplar=Stamplar. (Situational)

And the top 3 classes, Stamden, Magsorc and StamNB have 2 stamina in them. The imbalances are almost always the top vs the bottom Its almost always a magsorc/NB at the top3 , and a DK and templar at the bottom 3.

I wouldn't entirely agree with your Nightblade assessment. From my experience dueling, stamblades are on average much easier to kill, and apply less pressure than a magblade.

Why do you feel stamblades are stronger?