Shuffle Changes

The_1st_Elder · July 2018

First of All Hi Everyone,

This discussion is to discuss potential changes to current passives in the Medium Armor skill Line and the Evasion ability itself. Mainly focusing on PVP as i don't believe this skill is even used in PVE.

The reason for the need to make changes is that there needs to be a way to survive easier in Medium. Bring it more in line with Heavy/Light. Right not most builds are forced into heavy for the tankiness for example to at least be competitive.

Changes below are is my opinion so please state your comment on any changes you think the medium armor skill line should have.

#1 The "Improved Sneak" passive i feel needs to be redesigned so that grants minor expedition. IMO this is the most unused passive. The only real reason to use this is for Ganking, other than that it is completely useless.

#2 The last passive which increases the movement speed 3% at rank 1 and 4% at rank 2. Alter this so it is 5% at rank 1 and 10% at rank 2. (This will make medium armor quicker that heavy armor users as on live servers heavy armor users can run faster than medium). Should a heavy armor player be able to catch a medium armor player ???

#3 Evasion Skill - It would benefit medium armor if snare immunity is moved to the base skill and elude increases the duration of major evasion and shuffle increases snare immunity to 1sec up from 0.5secs. Total 5.5secs on snare immunity (this is more in line with forward momentum) I feel a lot more people will play medium if the above changes were made.

#4 Option - With the redesign of Improved Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Feanor · July 2018

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Gnozo · July 2018

I personally also think that the passive "Improved Sneak" should also get something that benefits non sneak Gameplay.

Like increasing your overall movement speed by 0,5%/1% per medium armor equiped.

The_1st_Elder · July 2018

Gnozo wrote: »

I personally also think that the passive "Improved Sneak" should also get something that benefits non sneak Gameplay.

Like increasing your overall movement speed by 0,5%/1% per medium armor equiped.

The last passive increases overall movement speed. Therefore I believe the way for medium counterplay should be able to move fast to LoS, etc

Gnozo · July 2018

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

I personally also think that the passive "Improved Sneak" should also get something that benefits non sneak Gameplay.

Like increasing your overall movement speed by 0,5%/1% per medium armor equiped.

The last passive increases overall movement speed. Therefore I believe the way for medium counterplay should be able to move fast to LoS, etc

You sure?

Increases your Movement Speed while using Sprint by 3% and reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

CyrusArya · July 2018

Agree with point 1. That passive is useless for people who actually like to fight. Inb4 some ganker tries to defend their cowardly playstyle.

Agree with point 3 too. Shuffle is so lackluster compared to forward momentum. Medium armor builds should definitely be more slick, evasive, and mobile than heavy armor builds but in practice this is not the case.

Point 2 however I disagree with. An orc in medium armor with major expedition is already quite fast. Then you factor in swift jewelry and, well, this could be very easily over the top.

Amdar_Godkiller · July 2018

Passive crit resistance is what medium needs because it will allow us to wear Well-fitted and sturdy in PVP for extra mitigation.

You can't block in medium armor, and roll dodge's cost cool-down can get monstrous.

A damage buff is overdue as well, but it shouldn't just copy light armor passives.

The third thing medium armor needs is a purge mechanism that doesn't cost 5K magicka.

ak_pvp · July 2018

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

#3 Evasion Skill - It would benefit medium armor if snare immunity is moved to the base skill and elude increases the duration of major evasion and shuffle increases snare immunity to 1sec up from 0.5secs. Total 5.5secs on snare immunity (this is more in line with forward momentum) I feel a lot more people will play medium if the above changes were made.

Wings. Exhibit D.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Passive crit resistance is what medium needs because it will allow us to wear Well-fitted and sturdy in PVP for extra mitigation.

You can't block in medium armor, and roll dodge's cost cool-down can get monstrous.

A damage buff is overdue as well, but it shouldn't just copy light armor passives.

The third thing medium armor needs is a purge mechanism that doesn't cost 5K magicka.

99 crit resistance per medium armor piece would be spot on.

The_1st_Elder · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

#3 Evasion Skill - It would benefit medium armor if snare immunity is moved to the base skill and elude increases the duration of major evasion and shuffle increases snare immunity to 1sec up from 0.5secs. Total 5.5secs on snare immunity (this is more in line with forward momentum) I feel a lot more people will play medium if the above changes were made.

Wings. Exhibit D.

Only Dks have wings. I understand medium dks will have a slight buff with reflective plate. 2sec from reflective plate + 5.5secs from shuffle = 7.5secs which is just over forward momentum. Basically one skill for a long duration or two skills same duration dependant on the type of armor worm.

What about the other classes who run medium? They only have shuffle for medium and forward momentum for heavy.

ak_pvp · July 2018

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

#3 Evasion Skill - It would benefit medium armor if snare immunity is moved to the base skill and elude increases the duration of major evasion and shuffle increases snare immunity to 1sec up from 0.5secs. Total 5.5secs on snare immunity (this is more in line with forward momentum) I feel a lot more people will play medium if the above changes were made.

Wings. Exhibit D.

Only Dks have wings. I understand medium dks will have a slight buff with reflective plate. 2sec from reflective plate + 5.5secs from shuffle = 7.5secs which is just over forward momentum. Basically one skill for a long duration or two skills same duration dependant on the type of armor worm.

What about the other classes who run medium? They only have shuffle for medium and forward momentum for heavy.

Ah, sorry. It was just a comment chronicling people who want shuffle duration buffed (I do too) and since wings falls in the same hole with a low removal time.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

#3 Evasion Skill - It would benefit medium armor if snare immunity is moved to the base skill and elude increases the duration of major evasion and shuffle increases snare immunity to 1sec up from 0.5secs. Total 5.5secs on snare immunity (this is more in line with forward momentum) I feel a lot more people will play medium if the above changes were made.

Wings. Exhibit D.

Only Dks have wings. I understand medium dks will have a slight buff with reflective plate. 2sec from reflective plate + 5.5secs from shuffle = 7.5secs which is just over forward momentum. Basically one skill for a long duration or two skills same duration dependant on the type of armor worm.

What about the other classes who run medium? They only have shuffle for medium and forward momentum for heavy.

Ah, sorry. It was just a comment chronicling people who want shuffle duration buffed (I do too) and since wings falls in the same hole with a low removal time.

Buffing wings won't benefit medium armor at all; which is in a terrible spot for non-stealth builds.

Feanor · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

Someone did the math on that, and IIRC the two passives are comparable. Not to mention the fact it’s way easier to stack WD, thus a percentage modifier has potentially much more value than a flat number.

Amdar_Godkiller · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

Someone did the math on that, and IIRC the two passives are comparable. Not to mention the fact it’s way easier to stack WD, thus a percentage modifier has potentially much more value than a flat number.

It depends on the content and the target

For PVE, penetration is much better than the 12% weapon damage bonus. For PVP, minimum physical resistance is around 8K, while minimum spell resistance is 10K, so the first 2K that is gained from concentration really just puts light armor wearers on par with medium armor before factoring in other passives.

Also it's less penetration against a CP160 player than you'd get against a PVE Boss. 660 is 1% in PVP while 500 is 1% in PVE; so the nearly 10% LA gets in PVE is worth less than 8% in PVP.

Also Penetration gets better the more resistance a player has, so against heavy armor, the spell penetration will likely out perform the weapon damage, but against medium and light armor, when factoring the additional spell resistance that magicka attacks must overcome, the weapon damage buff will account for slightly more than the penetration.

So in PVP they are comparable, but in PVE they are worlds apart.

LeHarrt91 · July 2018

Someone the other week in a similar forum post mentioned adding the AoE damage reduction from Blade Cloak to Medium armor, this gives them survivability with all medium playstyles and weapons (2H and Bow) and helps PVE and PVP.
I am unsure about crit resist as it doesnt help pve endgame dps but the sneak passive doesnt either so idk.

Amdar_Godkiller · July 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Someone the other week in a similar forum post mentioned adding the AoE damage reduction from Blade Cloak to Medium armor, this gives them survivability with all medium playstyles and weapons (2H and Bow) and helps PVE and PVP.
I am unsure about crit resist as it doesnt help pve endgame dps but the sneak passive doesnt either so idk.

By the same token can we add the 5280 resistance debuff from Weakness to Elements to light armor?

That would be silly.

Blade Cloak is a trash skill for PVE that should never be slotted. And it shouldn't make your bar in PVP either because there are better mitigation options that both do and don't cost stamina, and there are better offensive options to choose from on the DW skill line as well.

TheYKcid · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

Someone did the math on that, and IIRC the two passives are comparable. Not to mention the fact it’s way easier to stack WD, thus a percentage modifier has potentially much more value than a flat number.

Not true, even a build heavily-stacked into WD will top-out at a ~400 WD bonus from the Agility passive, which pales in comparison to the damage boost 4884 pen provides (I can provide calculations on this if anyone requests).

That said, this damage disparity is fair for two reasons:

WD boosts a stam build's offence as well as defence (heal tooltips), whereas penetration only benefits offence
extra penetration can be situationally useless (vs. shields and overpenetrated targets)

I do agree med needs a buff though. And a buff to the immunity on shuffle makes sense. Hell, I'd even be comfortable with giving 1.2s per piece—a suicidal 7-med build would still only get a mere 0.4s more than an FM user. Mobility is probably a stam build's best defence, and this would go a long way in making med more equitable to heavy.

I don't like the idea of added crit resist, though. Admittedly it's just a "flavour" thing for me—adding passive mitigation to an armor type designed around active mitigation seems inconsistent.

Gprime31 · July 2018

Shuffle needs 1 sec per piece or 5 sec flat that’s all

IlCanis_LupuslI · July 2018

Gnozo wrote: »

I personally also think that the passive "Improved Sneak" should also get something that benefits non sneak Gameplay.

Like increasing your overall movement speed by 0,5%/1% per medium armor equiped.

@Gnozo then I suggest giving woodelves & Khajiits a 5% movement speed buff independently from what armor they wear vs the increased sneak damage which is useless unless one is a ganker ; probably the most useless passive ever @ZOS_GinaBruno maby this can be brought to the Devs attention plz

Qbiken · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

So you essentially want as much extra weapon damage from wearing medium armor as being a werewolf?
Nice balance.....

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

So you essentially want as much extra weapon damage from wearing medium armor as being a werewolf?
Nice balance.....

And yet concentration still would out-do that 18% in terms of damage output.

Qbiken · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

So you essentially want as much extra weapon damage from wearing medium armor as being a werewolf?
Nice balance.....

And yet concentration still would out-do that 18% in terms of damage output.

If I remember correctly 500 penetration is roughly equal to 1% DPS increase. Concentration would therefore give roughly 9,7% more DPS (assuming penetration-cap isn´t reached or shields aren´t applied on the enemy). In PvP against shield-users higher weapon-damage will be significantly more efficient than high spell-penetration, while against targets with high resistance it´s the opposite.

The only thing I think needs rework in the medium armor skilline is shuffle. It doesn´t give enough benefits compared to Forward momentum for example. Increase the snare-immunity duration and lower the cost would be a good start. Other than that the skilline is fairly balanced in my opinion.

TheYKcid · July 2018

It's 660 penetration to 1% armor reduction, so 4884 seems to be a 7.4% increase. But this is simply the absolute change—you still need to take proportion into account, which depends on how much armor your target already has:

Against a typical 5 heavy target (21000 resists), Concentration will increase the damage they are taking from 68.2% to 75.6%. Therefore, the effective gain in DPS is 10.8% compared to baseline. Against a 5 light target (15000 resists), you're going from 77.3 to 84.7, resulting in a 9.6% gain.

These figures decrease a little more if you've already stacked some additional penetration (eg. CP, major breach, etc).

Compare this to a medium build with a substantial investment into WD (4.7k net, 3.5k base) and 30k stam, and the 420 WD provided by Agility in this case only raises your tooltips by 5.9%.

So Concentration definitely adds more DPS than Agility, but this is justified for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

Amdar_Godkiller · July 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

So you essentially want as much extra weapon damage from wearing medium armor as being a werewolf?
Nice balance.....

And yet concentration still would out-do that 18% in terms of damage output.

If I remember correctly 500 penetration is roughly equal to 1% DPS increase. Concentration would therefore give roughly 9,7% more DPS (assuming penetration-cap isn´t reached or shields aren´t applied on the enemy). In PvP against shield-users higher weapon-damage will be significantly more efficient than high spell-penetration, while against targets with high resistance it´s the opposite.

The only thing I think needs rework in the medium armor skilline is shuffle. It doesn´t give enough benefits compared to Forward momentum for example. Increase the snare-immunity duration and lower the cost would be a good start. Other than that the skilline is fairly balanced in my opinion.

660 penetration in PVP is equal to between 1% and 2% always until you over penetrate. At the resistance cap, 660 is worth 2% dps, and when you are 660 penetration away from full penetration it is equal to 1%.

So 100 CP Piercing for example is worth between an 8 and 16% dps increase. Except of course when facing damage shields and it does nothing to increase the damage of bleeds.

The concentration passive comes out to between 7.3% and 14.6% more dps. However since base spell resistance is 2K higher than base physical resistance, the benefit in PVP is actually only 2840 penetration which will yield a dps increase of just between 4.3% and 8.6%. .

SodanTok · July 2018

As for the general idea of medium needing some penetration, it definitely does not. While slightly more weapon damage would help with healing, the weapon damage is currently well balanced (given higher need for healing and lesser gain from LA penetration, its totally underperforming in pve).
The issue with medium is not the damage you deal at all, nightblades and those various medium armor bleed builds are good proof of that. Its the survivability and sustain of medium that doesnt really allow for any defense when met with repeating snares, undodgeable CCs, those AoE damages that for some reason are as powerful or even better than any dodgeable single target hits, defiles and strong dots.
Plus small things like melee hits being able to hit you even if you literally spam dodge roll (you get free control of character to perform another dodge or skill like 1.4s after last dodge, but you are vulnerable to attacks 1.2s after dodge - which, correct me if I am wrong, feels like opposite of what it used to be in the past)

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

Because it has weapon damage.

Which is a good distinction, but it doesn't even compare to concentration. Buffing it to 18% from 12% would be a good change.

So you essentially want as much extra weapon damage from wearing medium armor as being a werewolf?
Nice balance.....

And yet concentration still would out-do that 18% in terms of damage output.

If I remember correctly 500 penetration is roughly equal to 1% DPS increase. Concentration would therefore give roughly 9,7% more DPS (assuming penetration-cap isn´t reached or shields aren´t applied on the enemy). In PvP against shield-users higher weapon-damage will be significantly more efficient than high spell-penetration, while against targets with high resistance it´s the opposite.

The only thing I think needs rework in the medium armor skilline is shuffle. It doesn´t give enough benefits compared to Forward momentum for example. Increase the snare-immunity duration and lower the cost would be a good start. Other than that the skilline is fairly balanced in my opinion.

660 penetration in PVP is equal to between 1% and 2% always until you over penetrate. At the resistance cap, 660 is worth 2% dps, and when you are 660 penetration away from full penetration it is equal to 1%.

So 100 CP Piercing for example is worth between an 8 and 16% dps increase. Except of course when facing damage shields and it does nothing to increase the damage of bleeds.

The concentration passive comes out to between 7.3% and 14.6% more dps. However since base spell resistance is 2K higher than base physical resistance, the benefit in PVP is actually only 2840 penetration which will yield a dps increase of just between 4.3% and 8.6%. .

Base spell resistance is same as physical

You are probably forgetting light armor gives spell resistance

Dracane · July 2018

If you believe that reduced sneak detection is useless, then you have not pvped and found yourself in a stick situation. (which you will not experience under the protection of a zerg)

Didaco · July 2018

Give medium armor a base snare immunity of 40% when wearing 5 or more pieces to counter every minor snare and get rid of the friggin rng defense mechanic provide by evasion.

Yes, I hate evasion.

usmguy1234 · July 2018

Didaco wrote: »

Give medium armor a base snare immunity of 40% when wearing 5 or more pieces to counter every minor snare and get rid of the friggin rng defense mechanic provide by evasion.

Yes, I hate evasion.

The non nightblade specs need the evasion and 15% is pathetic for those specs.

idk · July 2018

The_1st_Elder wrote: »

#1 The "Improved Sneak" passive i feel needs to be redesigned so that grants minor expedition. IMO this is the most unused passive. The only real reason to use this is for Ganking, other than that it is completely useless.

#2 The last passive which increases the movement speed 3% at rank 1 and 4% at rank 2. Alter this so it is 5% at rank 1 and 10% at rank 2. (This will make medium armor quicker that heavy armor users as on live servers heavy armor users can run faster than medium). Should a heavy armor player be able to catch a medium armor player ???

#3 Evasion Skill - It would benefit medium armor if snare immunity is moved to the base skill and elude increases the duration of major evasion and shuffle increases snare immunity to 1sec up from 0.5secs. Total 5.5secs on snare immunity (this is more in line with forward momentum) I feel a lot more people will play medium if the above changes were made.

#4 Option - With the redesign of Improved Sneak you Could add physical penetration to this. The reason for this is because light armor gets spell penetration. Why can't medium have physical penetration?

No offense but your title is about shuffle yet most of what you are discussing has nothing to do with shuffle. It helps to be focused.

Further, snares are being heavily reduced with this next update that is on the PTS. It is probably not the best time to suggest increasing snare immunity when snares are being reduced.

Further, it is extremely unlikely that Zos will trade out snare immunity for the evasion buff as you are suggesting and I do not think the medium armor wearing players would like such a trade off since it would also make the other morph unattractive.

If I got this wrong and you think Zos would have the base skill include both evasion and snare immunity then I apologize but that is also something that just is not going to happen for what should be obvious reasons.

About 4th point, again there would have to be a trade off. If you are suggesting making medium armor passives like light armor in providing penetration then the crit chance would likely be normalized to what 5 pieces will provide and the added weapon damage would be removed.

Personally I think the current setup is good and like that it is not identical to light armor.

LeHarrt91 · July 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Someone the other week in a similar forum post mentioned adding the AoE damage reduction from Blade Cloak to Medium armor, this gives them survivability with all medium playstyles and weapons (2H and Bow) and helps PVE and PVP.
I am unsure about crit resist as it doesnt help pve endgame dps but the sneak passive doesnt either so idk.

By the same token can we add the 5280 resistance debuff from Weakness to Elements to light armor?

That would be silly.

Blade Cloak is a trash skill for PVE that should never be slotted. And it shouldn't make your bar in PVP either because there are better mitigation options that both do and don't cost stamina, and there are better offensive options to choose from on the DW skill line as well.

Light Armor already gets 4884 penetration built into it and spell resistance, Blade Cloak's mitigation isnt a Major/ Minor Buff/ Debuff.

Yes blade cloak isnt what it use to be, and idc about is offensive use i wasnt talking about that. But a lot of trial damage is coded as AoE damage so 25% less is good add it to medium armor so that you dont have to slot a skill for it.

In pvp yes, there are better mitigation skills to use but for medium adding the 25% reduction to AoE to a passive in medium wouldnt hurt (this way it doesnt cost magicka or stamina.... its free) and so many of the skills used in pvp are single target.