Abolish MMR Entirely

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

Matchmaking ranking (as I understand its implementation in this game from other threads in this category) is broken. PUGs and premades end up both somehow getting short ends of the stick. People have to queue forever. It's frustrating. So here's the solution I suggest - no more MMR at all. A purely random free-for-all, the most experienced players verses the least. The most desparate pugs vs the most synergized premades.

The idea behind this is that yeah, inexperienced solo's may get teamed against ridiculously good players, but they also might end up teamed WITH those players, providing examples of how to play properly and learning moments that will make them better players.

The way MMR seems to work now is that premades automatically get a higher MMR for simply grouping together, leading to crazy long wait times while the group finder tries to find a relatively even match. But what ends up happening 99% of the time is that the group finder searches and searches, and lowers the standard MMR or raises it, so everyone ends up waiting forever and still end up getting matched against players of different MMRs.

So if we just ditch the MMR system entirely, queue times will drop because the group finder could care less about how strong your group is, and new players will have a chance to mingle with the more experienced, and it would not at all have a negative impact on the already-bad group forming process which far more often than not places premades against pugs, both of which probably had to sit in queue for far too long.

Is it the perfect solution? No, of course not. But it addresses multiple existing issues without creating any new ones. I'd say that''s pretty good.

EDIT: here's the link to the discussion about the nature of MMR as it currently is in ESO
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415941/lets-talk-about-the-mmr/p1

TarrNokk · July 2018

Only premades sitting in queue waiting. I never wait longer than 15 seconds in solo queue.

Qwazzy · July 2018

Dropping the MMR to add a solo queue or duo queue only option would be awesome.

Thogard · July 2018

TarrNokk wrote: »

Only premades sitting in queue waiting. I never wait longer than 15 seconds in solo queue.

Nope. I have to wait about 30-40 minutes MINIMUM on my Warden when I SOLO queue on him.

Many people who have played a lot of battleground matches are the same way.

kadar · July 2018

I agree completely. Mumps/Measels/Rubella need to be abolished. Get vaccinated everyone!

kwisatz · July 2018

Nope.
I want to play with my friends, not with pugs.

brandonv516 · July 2018

kwisatz wrote: »

Nope.
I want to play with my friends, not with pugs.

That's not what this thread is suggesting.

Removing the MMR means that you as a group still get to play as a group, but that it is completely random who you play against. It could be other 4 man teams, mostly PUGs, etc. Basically how it was before.

Currently your 4 man group will have a longer wait time than a solo player with a low MMR. A solo player with a high MMR will still have a long wait time.

I actually don't mind how it is right now except that I don't get to play my main as much. I've found enjoyment out of my alts with their short wait times. Also occasionally when I hop on my main I find I get a match within minutes.

Karm1cOne · July 2018

Isn't this what prompted the devs to change how bgs work? People stopped playing, cuz premade were roflstomping pugs.

Hetaira · July 2018

I think MMR should be abolished. Full 4 man and even 3 man premades should never go against pugs though. Make two distinct queues. 3/4 premades would always be on their own, and then 2 man and pugs would always be together.

Don't understand why that is even remotely hard to implement.

Thogard · July 2018

Hetaira wrote: »

I think MMR should be abolished. Full 4 man and even 3 man premades should never go against pugs though. Make two distinct queues. 3/4 premades would always be on their own, and then 2 man and pugs would always be together.

Don't understand why that is even remotely hard to implement.

How do you determine who the fourth player is if a 3 man premade queues up?

Hetaira · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Hetaira wrote: »

I think MMR should be abolished. Full 4 man and even 3 man premades should never go against pugs though. Make two distinct queues. 3/4 premades would always be on their own, and then 2 man and pugs would always be together.

Don't understand why that is even remotely hard to implement.

How do you determine who the fourth player is if a 3 man premade queues up?

No one would join that 3 man. If they chose to go in with 3 and knew they'd be potentially against a 4 man premade then that would be on them. I can actually see many end game players liking those odds when they want a definite challenge where they've already, willingly, gave themselves a disadvantage in numbers.

SUNMorph · July 2018

Hetaira wrote: »

I think MMR should be abolished. Full 4 man and even 3 man premades should never go against pugs though. Make two distinct queues. 3/4 premades would always be on their own, and then 2 man and pugs would always be together.

Don't understand why that is even remotely hard to implement.

For me that make also sense.

Aliyavana · July 2018

TarrNokk wrote: »

Only premades sitting in queue waiting. I never wait longer than 15 seconds in solo queue.

wrong, I get 20-30 minute solo ques on my main

ecru · July 2018

No. There were players with 96% win rates before there was MMR. That kind of win rate is a complete failure on the part of ZOS when it comes to matchmaking and it's beyond embarrassing for them that they allowed BGs to release in that state.

Not that the current system is much better, since any matchmaking system whose goal is to force players to lose two thirds of their games is awful, but hey, three teams is cool and unique lol.

jediodyn_ESO · July 2018

There should be a separate que for group PvP in BGs with a leaderboard that gives better rewards, and an extra bag/more ap for match each rewards.

The other que should be solo only, no MMR. I’m sick of going up against the same 5 guys all day because I play “too much PvP”

Juhasow · July 2018

It's not fault of MMR that less and less people joins BGs. Especially during last week when free ESO+ event lasted and everyone without ESO+ wanted to get achievements and sets from DLC content BGs matchmaking sucked but it's still not fault of matchmaker itself.

I dont see the point of quening total randoms that have no idea about the game agaisnt premades of organized and experienced players just so matchmaking would be faster. It would be just boring slaughtery. Argument that less experienced players would learn more is silly. You wont learn much if You spend 2/3 of Your match in dead recap window awaiting on respawn.

To truly resolve BG MMR system there have to be more incentive for ppl to join BGs which means there have to be better balance or better rewards atleast. Making BGs base game wont save them on longer term if we'll have things like current broken meta happening there.

ChunkyCat · July 2018

The only thing MMR accomplished was send everyone who BGs regularly to the back of the line.

New BG players are still getting fed to Premades because the less you’ve BG’d, then the higher the probablity for your queue to work. It’s like they’re just rushing into the lion’s den only to be surprised by the Premade lion in there.

I wouldn’t be surprised if at the ZOS Staff meeting, where they asked for a solution to all the premade complaints, someone said “why don’t we just make the queues shorter for players who don’t BG regularly?”

Then the rest of the staff was like “omg luv you, what a grand idea, grab a cupcake!”

Gaggin · July 2018

Is mmr account or character based? I play on like 9 different toons each day, solo queue isn't long at all.

Thogard · July 2018

Gaggin wrote: »

Is mmr account or character based? I play on like 9 different toons each day, solo queue isn't long at all.

Character based

ReName · July 2018

just remove MMR from BG this would resolve long wait times for games and you will not keep playing against the same players with a high MMR

Apache_Kid · July 2018

I have experienced long-queue times on my main as well. I have since switched back to playing Cyrodiil when I want to PvP when during the Dragon Bones patch I strictly played BGs and it was the most fun I've ever had in PvP in ESO. Thanks for the memories...

Also straight LOL at this thread. The reason this MMR bs happened is because people couldn't handle losing matches and pissed and moaned to no end on here about pre-mades versus PUGs. As a matter of fact, one of the people in this very thread complaining about the long queue times made countless threads about this (you know who you are). Well this is your fault. I pretty much strictly solo-queue in BGs and yeah I didn't win all the matches but I didn't cry on the message boards when i was beaten by a superior organized team. But those of you who did have ruined my queue times and ruined BGs for me. Shame on you (once again you know who you are)

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Because of this MMR system, my queues take forever, and my matches are almost entirely filled with magsorcs. It's pure hell.

Thogard · July 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

I have experienced long-queue times on my main as well. I have since switched back to playing Cyrodiil when I want to PvP when during the Dragon Bones patch I strictly played BGs and it was the most fun I've ever had in PvP in ESO. Thanks for the memories...

Also straight LOL at this thread. The reason this MMR bs happened is because people couldn't handle losing matches and pissed and moaned to no end on here about pre-mades versus PUGs. As a matter of fact, one of the people in this very thread complaining about the long queue times made countless threads about this (you know who you are). Well this is your fault. I pretty much strictly solo-queue in BGs and yeah I didn't win all the matches but I didn't cry on the message boards when i was beaten by a superior organized team. But those of you who did have ruined my queue times and ruined BGs for me. Shame on you (once again you know who you are)

It’s not that person’s fault. It’s a bad implementation of MMR.

generalmyrick · July 2018

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Matchmaking ranking (as I understand its implementation in this game from other threads in this category) is broken. PUGs and premades end up both somehow getting short ends of the stick. People have to queue forever. It's frustrating. So here's the solution I suggest - no more MMR at all. A purely random free-for-all, the most experienced players verses the least. The most desparate pugs vs the most synergized premades.

The idea behind this is that yeah, inexperienced solo's may get teamed against ridiculously good players, but they also might end up teamed WITH those players, providing examples of how to play properly and learning moments that will make them better players.

The way MMR seems to work now is that premades automatically get a higher MMR for simply grouping together, leading to crazy long wait times while the group finder tries to find a relatively even match. But what ends up happening 99% of the time is that the group finder searches and searches, and lowers the standard MMR or raises it, so everyone ends up waiting forever and still end up getting matched against players of different MMRs.

So if we just ditch the MMR system entirely, queue times will drop because the group finder could care less about how strong your group is, and new players will have a chance to mingle with the more experienced, and it would not at all have a negative impact on the already-bad group forming process which far more often than not places premades against pugs, both of which probably had to sit in queue for far too long.

Is it the perfect solution? No, of course not. But it addresses multiple existing issues without creating any new ones. I'd say that''s pretty good.

EDIT: here's the link to the discussion about the nature of MMR as it currently is in ESO
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415941/lets-talk-about-the-mmr/p1

yeah, i think the high ranking pre made groups have long qs, my solo qs are quick and i don't spend my time going 0-70 to 4-man sorc squads.

FrostFallFox · July 2018

Discouraged to play BGs SOLO, because the que time takes decades.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

generalmyrick wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Matchmaking ranking (as I understand its implementation in this game from other threads in this category) is broken. PUGs and premades end up both somehow getting short ends of the stick. People have to queue forever. It's frustrating. So here's the solution I suggest - no more MMR at all. A purely random free-for-all, the most experienced players verses the least. The most desparate pugs vs the most synergized premades.

The idea behind this is that yeah, inexperienced solo's may get teamed against ridiculously good players, but they also might end up teamed WITH those players, providing examples of how to play properly and learning moments that will make them better players.

The way MMR seems to work now is that premades automatically get a higher MMR for simply grouping together, leading to crazy long wait times while the group finder tries to find a relatively even match. But what ends up happening 99% of the time is that the group finder searches and searches, and lowers the standard MMR or raises it, so everyone ends up waiting forever and still end up getting matched against players of different MMRs.

So if we just ditch the MMR system entirely, queue times will drop because the group finder could care less about how strong your group is, and new players will have a chance to mingle with the more experienced, and it would not at all have a negative impact on the already-bad group forming process which far more often than not places premades against pugs, both of which probably had to sit in queue for far too long.

Is it the perfect solution? No, of course not. But it addresses multiple existing issues without creating any new ones. I'd say that''s pretty good.

EDIT: here's the link to the discussion about the nature of MMR as it currently is in ESO
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415941/lets-talk-about-the-mmr/p1

yeah, i think the high ranking pre made groups have long qs, my solo qs are quick and i don't spend my time going 0-70 to 4-man sorc squads.

My solo queues are also short because I haven't been doing BGs for very long, and my MMR is still low. That allows me to have really fast queue times. But you don't have to look far to find someone who solo queues and still has to wait 20 minutes or so because they've been playing longer and have a higher MMR. The system should not inhibit the most loyal players, and should work in a way that everyone gets to queue up relatively quickly, even if it means some of your matches you get stomped on. That's just how competitive online PvP in any game works.

Dropping the MMR system would likely bring in more players to BGs anyway, and that would also help with queue times. (more players joining would likely be returning vets who don't BG anymore because of queue times being too long, but also some new players who want to see what it's all about)

ecru · July 2018

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Matchmaking ranking (as I understand its implementation in this game from other threads in this category) is broken. PUGs and premades end up both somehow getting short ends of the stick. People have to queue forever. It's frustrating. So here's the solution I suggest - no more MMR at all. A purely random free-for-all, the most experienced players verses the least. The most desparate pugs vs the most synergized premades.

The idea behind this is that yeah, inexperienced solo's may get teamed against ridiculously good players, but they also might end up teamed WITH those players, providing examples of how to play properly and learning moments that will make them better players.

The way MMR seems to work now is that premades automatically get a higher MMR for simply grouping together, leading to crazy long wait times while the group finder tries to find a relatively even match. But what ends up happening 99% of the time is that the group finder searches and searches, and lowers the standard MMR or raises it, so everyone ends up waiting forever and still end up getting matched against players of different MMRs.

So if we just ditch the MMR system entirely, queue times will drop because the group finder could care less about how strong your group is, and new players will have a chance to mingle with the more experienced, and it would not at all have a negative impact on the already-bad group forming process which far more often than not places premades against pugs, both of which probably had to sit in queue for far too long.

Is it the perfect solution? No, of course not. But it addresses multiple existing issues without creating any new ones. I'd say that''s pretty good.

EDIT: here's the link to the discussion about the nature of MMR as it currently is in ESO
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415941/lets-talk-about-the-mmr/p1

yeah, i think the high ranking pre made groups have long qs, my solo qs are quick and i don't spend my time going 0-70 to 4-man sorc squads.

My solo queues are also short because I haven't been doing BGs for very long, and my MMR is still low. That allows me to have really fast queue times. But you don't have to look far to find someone who solo queues and still has to wait 20 minutes or so because they've been playing longer and have a higher MMR. The system should not inhibit the most loyal players, and should work in a way that everyone gets to queue up relatively quickly, even if it means some of your matches you get stomped on. That's just how competitive online PvP in any game works.

Dropping the MMR system would likely bring in more players to BGs anyway, and that would also help with queue times. (more players joining would likely be returning vets who don't BG anymore because of queue times being too long, but also some new players who want to see what it's all about)

Eliminating MMR would just lead to the same premades never losing matches against random pugs and people getting discouraged. Once people start losing all of their games, they're going to stop queueing entirely.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

ecru wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Matchmaking ranking (as I understand its implementation in this game from other threads in this category) is broken. PUGs and premades end up both somehow getting short ends of the stick. People have to queue forever. It's frustrating. So here's the solution I suggest - no more MMR at all. A purely random free-for-all, the most experienced players verses the least. The most desparate pugs vs the most synergized premades.

The idea behind this is that yeah, inexperienced solo's may get teamed against ridiculously good players, but they also might end up teamed WITH those players, providing examples of how to play properly and learning moments that will make them better players.

The way MMR seems to work now is that premades automatically get a higher MMR for simply grouping together, leading to crazy long wait times while the group finder tries to find a relatively even match. But what ends up happening 99% of the time is that the group finder searches and searches, and lowers the standard MMR or raises it, so everyone ends up waiting forever and still end up getting matched against players of different MMRs.

So if we just ditch the MMR system entirely, queue times will drop because the group finder could care less about how strong your group is, and new players will have a chance to mingle with the more experienced, and it would not at all have a negative impact on the already-bad group forming process which far more often than not places premades against pugs, both of which probably had to sit in queue for far too long.

Is it the perfect solution? No, of course not. But it addresses multiple existing issues without creating any new ones. I'd say that''s pretty good.

EDIT: here's the link to the discussion about the nature of MMR as it currently is in ESO
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415941/lets-talk-about-the-mmr/p1

yeah, i think the high ranking pre made groups have long qs, my solo qs are quick and i don't spend my time going 0-70 to 4-man sorc squads.

My solo queues are also short because I haven't been doing BGs for very long, and my MMR is still low. That allows me to have really fast queue times. But you don't have to look far to find someone who solo queues and still has to wait 20 minutes or so because they've been playing longer and have a higher MMR. The system should not inhibit the most loyal players, and should work in a way that everyone gets to queue up relatively quickly, even if it means some of your matches you get stomped on. That's just how competitive online PvP in any game works.

Dropping the MMR system would likely bring in more players to BGs anyway, and that would also help with queue times. (more players joining would likely be returning vets who don't BG anymore because of queue times being too long, but also some new players who want to see what it's all about)

Eliminating MMR would just lead to the same premades never losing matches against random pugs and people getting discouraged. Once people start losing all of their games, they're going to stop queueing entirely.

I disagree. Because as the system currently works, MMR causes high-ranking players to sit in queues waiting to be matched with someone at a similar level to them. If you read the link in the original post, you can get an in-depth explanation of the problem that then arises, but I'll summarize it here - the longer it takes for the matchmaking system to find even matches, the more it widens its standards of what it considers an even match. So, if group A (really good, been doing this for a while) queues up with no other equal (or similarly skilled) teams in queue, the MMR system will eventually just match them with a low-ranking PUG. And this happens all the time. It's why PUGs still complain about premades "ruining" BGs. So as it stands now, we have (as you say) premades that 'never lose matches' that dominate the matches they get in. That will always be the case. Better players will win, no getting around that. But those better players are having to wait upwards of 45 minutes to get into a match that they'll decimate. Without MMR, they'll jump right in, play the same matches they would have played anyway, and we've solved the long queue time issue. Like I said, it isn't a perfect solution, but it would help with people who sit in queues, and may even bring in some more people to battlegrounds.

Apache_Kid · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

I have experienced long-queue times on my main as well. I have since switched back to playing Cyrodiil when I want to PvP when during the Dragon Bones patch I strictly played BGs and it was the most fun I've ever had in PvP in ESO. Thanks for the memories...

Also straight LOL at this thread. The reason this MMR bs happened is because people couldn't handle losing matches and pissed and moaned to no end on here about pre-mades versus PUGs. As a matter of fact, one of the people in this very thread complaining about the long queue times made countless threads about this (you know who you are). Well this is your fault. I pretty much strictly solo-queue in BGs and yeah I didn't win all the matches but I didn't cry on the message boards when i was beaten by a superior organized team. But those of you who did have ruined my queue times and ruined BGs for me. Shame on you (once again you know who you are)

It’s not that person’s fault. It’s a bad implementation of MMR.

This would not have happened without all the complaints. When we ask for a fix they try to provide the fix and end up making everything worse in the process. Thus is the circle of life with this game. There was no chance they would institute MMR in a seamless, cohesive manner. It was doomed from the get go. I just want my dragon bones BGs back.

Gaggin · July 2018

Character-based is silly, if they're gonna do that they should shorten the time before the queue starts making mismatched mmr fights, I play on multiple toons so I probably don't climb very high on the mmr even though I win most of the time even solo queuing.

LadyNalcarya · July 2018

The idea behind is if good, but it has serious issues.
First of all, the system isnt transparent. I wish it was possible to see your character's stats.
Secondly, if the system thinks you're winning too much, it gives you a 20+min solo queue and you end up against premades. So it doesnt even solve the "pugs vs premades" issue.