Discussion: Stamina Heavy Attack Range Nerf (poll inside)

splitsand · July 2018

After testing, and hearing some feedback from friends + other players (in my opinion) this is a bad nerf.

Here is the info from the patch notes.
Decreased the range of Two Handed, Dual Wield, One Hand and Shield, Unarmed, and Werewolf Heavy Attacks to 7 meters from 10 meters.
Developer Comments:
"The range for melee Heavy Attacks now matches other melee cast time and channeled abilities, such as Uppercut and Flurry."

One of the best ways to sustain in PvE and PvP is the heavy attack, which you are frequently using at the max range --due to retreating from red, or other players. Heavies have gotten some significant nerfs lately, and this is one that just doesn't make sense.

In PvE this makes it so in even more scenarios a stam class cant do damage (do to environmental hazards, aoe's, etc...). I can't tell you how frustrating it is to be on a stam character and not be able to attack the boss because of an AoE or another mechanic, while the mag DPS is just wailing away at a range.

In PvP completely nerfs the "fade away-ish" heavy for resources. Commonly, when LoS'ing (which every player needs to do) you try to pull off a heavy attack to get a little more resources before you have to fight again.

I think this is actually a fairly significant nerf, and one that shouldn't be there when the update goes live.

How do you all feel?

Myux · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

stam users arent really gonna HA without weaving into another attack skill anyway so staying at that range is kinda pointless. its just an occasional thing that pops up when youre rushing in that doesnt really change much at all. like if you threw that argument in for shortening flame whip range i would definitely agree cause it allows for very neat strats, but for HAs its like, not that big a deal.
also meaningless in PvE (much like everything ever that isnt just numbers) so i believe the biggest purpose of fixing the range on em is just for clarities sake. doesnt make a whole lot of gameplay sense to have HAs arbitrarily have a much longer range and seem to hit people across the room. i always found it a bit weird and not too useful.

also nice biased wording in the poll lol

splitsand · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

Myux wrote: »

stam users arent really gonna HA without weaving into another attack skill anyway so staying at that range is kinda pointless. its just an occasional thing that pops up when youre rushing in that doesnt really change much at all. like if you threw that argument in for shortening flame whip range i would definitely agree cause it allows for very neat strats, but for HAs its like, not that big a deal.
also meaningless in PvE (much like everything ever that isnt just numbers) so i believe the biggest purpose of fixing the range on em is just for clarities sake. doesnt make a whole lot of gameplay sense to have HAs arbitrarily have a much longer range and seem to hit people across the room. i always found it a bit weird and not too useful.

also nice biased wording in the poll lol

The examples where this is a bad idea are when you can't stand still and attack. Heavies are commonly used when backpedaling from a boss, or an enemy player. As far as rotations go now, yes, you could heavy attack but be out of range of skills. With that being the case, I'm still not understanding your argument. Reducing heavy range only makes stam PvE survivablity even more difficult, even if it's only 3 meters.

Myux · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

splitsand wrote: »

Myux wrote: »

stam users arent really gonna HA without weaving into another attack skill anyway so staying at that range is kinda pointless. its just an occasional thing that pops up when youre rushing in that doesnt really change much at all. like if you threw that argument in for shortening flame whip range i would definitely agree cause it allows for very neat strats, but for HAs its like, not that big a deal.
also meaningless in PvE (much like everything ever that isnt just numbers) so i believe the biggest purpose of fixing the range on em is just for clarities sake. doesnt make a whole lot of gameplay sense to have HAs arbitrarily have a much longer range and seem to hit people across the room. i always found it a bit weird and not too useful.

also nice biased wording in the poll lol

The examples where this is a bad idea are when you can't stand still and attack. Heavies are commonly used when backpedaling from a boss, or an enemy player. As far as rotations go now, yes, you could heavy attack but be out of range of skills. With that being the case, I'm still not understanding your argument. Reducing heavy range only makes stam PvE survivablity even more difficult, even if it's only 3 meters.

well then thats more of an issue with the balance of PvE content and how its favored towards ranged dps currently. if melee dps is having as big of an issue as WELL AT LEAST I CAN DO SOMETHING in a dungeon or trial, thats just bad game design. HAs range is a minor change thats just making you realize your entire spec is at a disadvantage. this nerf isnt what needs to be changed, its the design of bosses that needs to be changed. thats where your issue is.

splitsand · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

its the design of bosses that needs to be changed

Exactly, but this will never be changed. There is a reason why magblade dominates most trials. But, since they will never change that, why hurt stam for no reason?

LiquidPony · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

Myux wrote: »

stam users arent really gonna HA without weaving into another attack skill anyway so staying at that range is kinda pointless. its just an occasional thing that pops up when youre rushing in that doesnt really change much at all. like if you threw that argument in for shortening flame whip range i would definitely agree cause it allows for very neat strats, but for HAs its like, not that big a deal.
also meaningless in PvE (much like everything ever that isnt just numbers) so i believe the biggest purpose of fixing the range on em is just for clarities sake. doesnt make a whole lot of gameplay sense to have HAs arbitrarily have a much longer range and seem to hit people across the room. i always found it a bit weird and not too useful.

also nice biased wording in the poll lol

I wouldn't say it's *meaningless* in PvE. Maybe not a huge deal but it does have some impact.

The initial pull of Rakkhat (center pad) puts him out of range of melee abilities, however, you can drop DoTs and get a handful of heavy attacks in before transitioning to pad 1. And during pad transitions, I usually hit Rakkhat with a melee heavy while in transit from one position to the next after my DoTs are down.

On the Lightning Atro in AA, a common strat is to stack the boss in one of several positions where melee DPS can hit the boss with heavy attacks while standing on 2 of the lightning immunity pads.

There are other places in PvE (e.g., Triplets when the center boss throws up his lightning circle) with similar range restrictions where it is occasionally beneficial to be able to heavy attack from longer range than normal melee abilities.

So, again, not a huge deal but it will have some impact and I'm not sure I see the reason for the change in the first place.

sly007 · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

I understand that it makes no sense why heavy attacks have a longer range than some abilities. Okay, but why nerf heavy attack range without buffing light attack range. Two handed melee weapons have a 5 meter range for light attacks but have a 7meter range spammable.

If zos is willing to nerf heavy attack range for such a reason, a buff to light attack range is only reasonable to match other melee cast time and channeled abilities. Being unable to hit an enemy with a lightht attack at 7meter but all of a sudden, my dizzy swing or my cleave connects just fine is asinine.

Tonturri · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

As sly007 said, they should definitely adjust the range of light attacks up a bit to compensate, but I think consistency in this area is a good thing. It was horribly confusing to see myself get hit by a Dizzing Swing from a distance away that even my opponent's sword if laid out didn't cover, and mindboggling still to be hit by heavies if I moved a bit further away.

Obviously stamina (or just melee) is punished too much in PvE, but this change will be fine as long as they adjust accordingly.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

Reduce the range of gap closers.

Own · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

Have you seen the Range on melee heavy attacks. It's unreasonably far. You could fit 3 full length great swords in that gap. I'm really hoping this improves landing melee heavy attacks in PvP. I really feel like the excessive range causes them to not go through. Time will tell.

arkansas_ESO · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

It's too easy to sustain with heavies alone as stam in PVP on live. I'd have rather they reduced the cast time for destro and resto heavies instead to balance it, but oh well.

Starshadw · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

Melee attacks should be melee, range attacks should be range. Even 7 meters is too far - the only melee type weapon that should reach that far is a polearm (of which we have none in this game). it's ridiculous for any melee attack in this game to have a range other than 2-3 meters.

OrphanHelgen · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

Myux wrote: »

stam users arent really gonna HA without weaving into another attack skill anyway so staying at that range is kinda pointless. its just an occasional thing that pops up when youre rushing in that doesnt really change much at all.

It's not true. Both cloak and noxious breath can be weaved on 10 meters range, making one of the reasons stamina still can be used. This is a *** nerf, no discussion.

Vapirko · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

Not only is this a bad nerf that is absolutely pointless and uncalled for, but 2h LA need to be buffed again.

barshemm · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

Myux wrote: »

stam users arent really gonna HA without weaving into another attack skill anyway so staying at that range is kinda pointless. its just an occasional thing that pops up when youre rushing in that doesnt really change much at all. like if you threw that argument in for shortening flame whip range i would definitely agree cause it allows for very neat strats, but for HAs its like, not that big a deal.
also meaningless in PvE (much like everything ever that isnt just numbers) so i believe the biggest purpose of fixing the range on em is just for clarities sake. doesnt make a whole lot of gameplay sense to have HAs arbitrarily have a much longer range and seem to hit people across the room. i always found it a bit weird and not too useful.

also nice biased wording in the poll lol

In pvp when the number of opponents suddenly increases sometimes you are retreating while heavy attacking only just to keep resources up while you reposition. It's hard enough to land those heavy attacks for sustain now, especially since they made it so blocked attacks don't return resources. This is going to be a painful nerf to stamina sustain for classes that don't have high recovery. Heck even as a Stam sorc I'm using heavy attacks for Stam after streak.

Tannus15 · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

I like consistency

It would be cool though if 2-handers had +2 range on all melee skills.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

Because it's melee. I agree with the rationale. What I don't agree with is the reward. You can't land a heavy attack whenever you're in the mood like you can with a staff or a bow. Melee heavy attacks should not only do more damage than they currently do, but also restore more stamina; especially the 2H considering how slow and obvious it is.

Own · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

barshemm wrote: »

Myux wrote: »

stam users arent really gonna HA without weaving into another attack skill anyway so staying at that range is kinda pointless. its just an occasional thing that pops up when youre rushing in that doesnt really change much at all. like if you threw that argument in for shortening flame whip range i would definitely agree cause it allows for very neat strats, but for HAs its like, not that big a deal.
also meaningless in PvE (much like everything ever that isnt just numbers) so i believe the biggest purpose of fixing the range on em is just for clarities sake. doesnt make a whole lot of gameplay sense to have HAs arbitrarily have a much longer range and seem to hit people across the room. i always found it a bit weird and not too useful.

also nice biased wording in the poll lol

In pvp when the number of opponents suddenly increases sometimes you are retreating while heavy attacking only just to keep resources up while you reposition. It's hard enough to land those heavy attacks for sustain now, especially since they made it so blocked attacks don't return resources. This is going to be a painful nerf to stamina sustain for classes that don't have high recovery. Heck even as a Stam sorc I'm using heavy attacks for Stam after streak.

I wish resources would return at least half when blocked. Permablockers can run you out of stam for doing nothing. @ZOS_GinaBruno

I run 1199 recover 7 medium. StamDk, 1789 StamNB 6 medium. I really feel like HA canceling into a skill will work more reliably with the ranges matched up. I have yet to get on the PTS. Probably won't for a while.

LeHarrt91 · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

i always thought that there are racial passives that are effected off of melee attacks. ie Orc and Imperial. Melee is 7 meters so those races weren't getting benefit from their heavy attacks.

Carbonised · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

splitsand wrote: »

I can't tell you how frustrating it is to be on a stam character and not be able to attack the boss because of an AoE or another mechanic, while the mag DPS is just wailing away at a range.

Hi, I'm called MagDK, have we met?

Stam get significant bonuses simply for being melee ranged. That's supposed to be the drawback, being able to bypass that drawback and still get the bonuses is wrong.

Being able to hit someone 10 meters away with a melee attack is wrong.

Also, use a bow at least on one bar.

Zer0oo · July 2018

Good luck hitting one of the really big trial bosses, who also have the worst hitboxes in the game.

Kitty_Quietly · July 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

i always thought that there are racial passives that are effected off of melee attacks. ie Orc and Imperial. Melee is 7 meters so those races weren't getting benefit from their heavy attacks.

That’s a very good point. I foolishly assumed heavy attack was close enough before so never paid attention. Does anybody know if this realy changes things for those passives? It would certainly be at least one plus if it does.

Mayrael · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

Melee is melee, due to dynamic character of combat in ESO I understand it can't be like 3m but 10m was a bit surprising to me, good change.

Ragnaroek93 · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

Fighting against a heavy attacker feels like fighting against a ranged caster lol

LegendaryMage · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fighting against a heavy attacker feels like fighting against a ranged caster lol

Yeah it's ridiculous the range on those heavy attacks, at least in PVP. You're like 10 meters away from someone, you get tagged anyway. Good change.

Ocelot9x · July 2018

This is a pointless nerf, and I think heavy range should stay where it is.

Keep nerfing those pesky stamina guys , its not balanced that they don't run out of resource when I hit them with light attacks with my role players raid.

Being serious,thats such a stupid and uncalled nerf. Not only the range of heavy attacks means tons of resources when LoSing but also on live you can heavy attack+ critrush to have a "reliable" spammable instead of dizzlying s****. Guess that's was too op I suppose

Biro123 · July 2018

I'm a little worried about how it will play out when laggy (ie every single day in primetime cyro)..

Will it mean just a little movement from your target, that hasn't registered yet on your client means you're gonna be constantly missing..?

I mean especially if he's running from you - his position on his client will be further from you than the server thinks - which will be further than your client sees - and therefore out of range from the server perspective, but in range to your client (and therefore your eyesight)..

I just remember these kind of bugs on other MMO's, and always assumed the long heavy attack range was a way to mitigate them..

LegendaryMage · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

It's not a big nerf, 3 meters, from 10 to 7, it just makes them a bit more forgiving for people who are getting distance and a little bit less ridiculous in PVP for builds that spam them to rely on stam management.

How is this going to be a problem in PVE? If you're in melee range then your abilities have certain range and there's no issues there, now heavy attacks are more in tune with that.

And how the hell can anyone expect a sword to hit someone 10 meters away in the first place?

Biro123 · July 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

It's not a big nerf, 3 meters, from 10 to 7, it just makes them a bit more forgiving for people who are getting distance and a little bit less ridiculous in PVP for builds that spam them to rely on stam management.

How is this going to be a problem in PVE? If you're in melee range then your abilities have certain range and there's no issues there, now heavy attacks are more in tune with that.

And how the hell can anyone expect a sword to hit someone 10 meters away in the first place?

Haha - that vid, though.. I have done a bit of Hema, and that guy there, if he swung the sword while stepping forwards with the same kind of stance - he could have reached the target without throwing.. But that's probably more like 4m than 10.

LegendaryMage · July 2018

This nerf is a great idea that makes a ton of sense, and by choosing this option I will explain why.

@Biro123 You mean if he did something like this?

Biro123 · July 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

@Biro123 You mean if he did something like this?

Nah - that's crit-rush!

The Elder Scrolls Online

Discussion: Stamina Heavy Attack Range Nerf (poll inside)

Discussion: Stamina Heavy Attack Range Nerf (poll inside) 127 votes