More Templar nerfs incoming if PTS stays the same...
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Gargis✭✭✭Review of the above comments and my in game experience in regard to the evolution of the Templar class has been less than acceptable.
Channeled Focus issue, among others has made playing the class less than dynamic and beyond fun. I find it ironic that some classes have better dps and mobility which far outweighs the damage mitigation Templars have.
The "house" concept is a misnomer in the current game. One shot mechanics in pve, self healing on dps classes makes the issue moot.
The only thing that matters is burst damage, high mobility, and resource management. The Templar was lacking on the former two, and now the third will be an issue.
Actions have consequences. Behave accordingly.10 -
Cenom✭✭✭Review of the above comments and my in game experience in regard to the evolution of the Templar class has been less than acceptable.
Channeled Focus issue, among others has made playing the class less than dynamic and beyond fun. I find it ironic that some classes have better dps and mobility which far outweighs the damage mitigation Templars have.
The "house" concept is a misnomer in the current game. One shot mechanics in pve, self healing on dps classes makes the issue moot.
The only thing that matters is burst damage, high mobility, and resource management. The Templar was lacking on the former two, and now the third will be an issue.
Actions have consequences. Behave accordingly.
At least they are releasing tons of proc sets every patch; maybe that's the design they want us to follow. You can't sustain a single spell damage glyph or you can't do damage properly with a sustain set.
Magplars are crazy fun spot. Am not talking about pocket healers though... If that's the problem, change nerf further by using the Battle Spirit, instead of gutting classes... Healing youself 50%, healing someone else 25%.0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Honestly the "templar house" concept is garbage. I have a better "house" on my warden.11 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@idk
That's my chart. You are welcome to review the numbers behind it here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kgjGFug_Cq4pNT24b0JyKlIT9JbEr0ClvrgszwVgY7k/edit?usp=sharing
If any numbers are incorrect, I welcome feedback.Makes it appear as though on live the benefit continues for 25 second and continues well after that.
On live, the buff can indeed go all the way to 26 seconds, because the Rune buff refreshes if you return to it, and the initial cast lasts 18 seconds, for a potential NET return of 5160 magicka minus the live skill cost of 1080. (Might be 25 seconds if you have to subtract a GCD. But it's either 25 or 26.)
This is why there are two lines for Live on the chart -- one the *minimum* buff you get and the other the maximum. Chart ends at max time for a single cast.
On PTS, the Rune does not refresh if you return to it. There is a flat return of magicka of 15 seconds, period. While this simplifies templar sustain and gives a little more mobility, the absolute best net magicka return you can get it 1709, no matter how well you manage your sustain. And this is the one and only class source of sustain templar has, so you can't make it up elsewhere.
To be blunt: potential templar sustain is cut into a third of what it is on live if the changes on the PTS go through. 33%
If you look at the doc, you'll see a 2nd chart I'm noodling with. If they kept the Rune cost the same as live, you'd break even with Live at ~15 seconds, which will be a nerf still to PVE magplars, but they'll get simplified sustain and be less tied to that little circle on the ground. Since I only casually PVE, that's something end game DPS templars would need to give feedback on.
11 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@idk
That's my chart. You are welcome to review the numbers behind it here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kgjGFug_Cq4pNT24b0JyKlIT9JbEr0ClvrgszwVgY7k/edit?usp=sharing
If any numbers are incorrect, I welcome feedback.Makes it appear as though on live the benefit continues for 25 second and continues well after that.
On live, the buff can indeed go all the way to 26 seconds, because the Rune buff refreshes if you return to it, and the initial cast lasts 18 seconds, for a potential NET return of 5160 magicka minus the live skill cost of 1080. (Might be 25 seconds if you have to subtract a GCD. But it's either 25 or 26.)
This is why there are two lines for Live on the chart -- one the *minimum* buff you get and the other the maximum. Chart ends at max time for a single cast.
On PTS, the Rune does not refresh if you return to it. There is a flat return of magicka of 15 seconds, period. While this simplifies templar sustain and gives a little more mobility, the absolute best net magicka return you can get it 1709, no matter how well you manage your sustain. And this is the one and only class source of sustain templar has, so you can't make it up elsewhere.
To be blunt: potential templar sustain is cut into a third of what it is on live if the changes on the PTS go through. 33%
If you look at the doc, you'll see a 2nd chart I'm noodling with. If they kept the Rune cost the same as live, you'd break even with Live at ~15 seconds, which will be a nerf still to PVE magplars, but they'll get simplified sustain and be less tied to that little circle on the ground. Since I only casually PVE, that's something end game DPS templars would need to give feedback on.
That. Is. Horrfying.
You allways get about 1.7 K but you get nothing else, this is horrible, our sustain is absolutely murdered by this, it's -horrible-.
@NBrookus I've allready posted the survey in the other thread on the PTS talking about these changes but I urge you to post it in the main thread to combat changes and ping the devs. This -needs- attention.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on July 12, 2018 5:11AM9 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@NBrookus
Regardless of my confusion over the design of the graph, the information is incorrect.
On the PTS the skill lasts for 18 seconds, not the 15 you depict in the graph. The 15 seconds listed in the patch notes is for rank I of the morph, not rank IV. It is best to visit the PS itself to get an accurate picture.
That would provide a guaranteed 2400 magicka return from the cost over the duration of 18 seconds vs what looks like 1800 your graph seems to represent. That is without any cost reduction. Granted, that does pale in comparison of approximately 4500 - 5000 maximum possible today on live but is also much greater than the minimum return of only a few hundred magicka return which is the other part of the picture on live which was left out of your graph but it is important because Zos is aware of both extremes.
Personally they should have kept the cost the same and reduce the magicka return per second to match their goal. Raising the cost as they have is the biggest issue.
iirc Zos chose to not have a cost placed on the Warden's Betty Netch because they wanted access to the magicka/Stam return to not be an issue if the player was low on the resource.
Raising the cost of channeled focus is inconsistent with what Zos clearly stated just over a year ago and would make that the most important part to discuss since Zos' "vision" seems to wander quite a bit.Edited by idk on July 12, 2018 6:04AM1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@NBrookus
Regardless of my confusion over the design of the graph, the information is incorrect.
On the PTS the skill lasts for 18 seconds, not the 15 you depict in the graph. The 15 seconds listed in the patch notes is for rank I of the morph, not rank IV. It is best to visit the PS itself to get an accurate picture.
That would provide a guaranteed 2400 magicka return from the cost over the duration of 18 seconds vs what looks like 1800 your graph seems to represent. That is without any cost reduction. Granted, that does pale in comparison of approximately 4500 - 5000 maximum possible today on live but is also much greater than the minimum return of only a few hundred magicka return which is the other part of the picture on live which was left out of your graph but it is important because Zos is aware of both extremes.
Personally they should have kept the cost the same and reduce the magicka return per second to match their goal. Raising the cost as they have is the biggest issue.
iirc Zos chose to not have a cost placed on the Warden's Betty Netch because they wanted access to the magicka/Stam return to not be an issue if the player was low on the resource.
Raising the cost of channeled focus is inconsistent with what Zos clearly stated just over a year ago and would make that the most important part to discuss since Zos' "vision" seems to wander quite a bit.
The reason they didn't change the magicka recovery on focus is likely because, because focus is one of the morphs that has persisted since launch, they likely dont know how to edit it without breaking it entirely, so they just oped for cost.
Reguardless, it's still a nerf to the only means of sustain the class had, a class who's consistantly bad with it. So either their saying our sustain is as good as it's going to get, or their saying they dont know how to fix it. Neither really inspires much confidence.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on July 12, 2018 6:13AM7 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭At least with our lack of mobility, we wont even notice if our movement speed is reduced in PVP. Come in my house and i'll sweep the s**** out of you.
Edited by D0PAMINE on July 12, 2018 9:53AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »@NBrookus
Regardless of my confusion over the design of the graph, the information is incorrect.
On the PTS the skill lasts for 18 seconds, not the 15 you depict in the graph. The 15 seconds listed in the patch notes is for rank I of the morph, not rank IV. It is best to visit the PS itself to get an accurate picture.
That would provide a guaranteed 2400 magicka return from the cost over the duration of 18 seconds vs what looks like 1800 your graph seems to represent. That is without any cost reduction. Granted, that does pale in comparison of approximately 4500 - 5000 maximum possible today on live but is also much greater than the minimum return of only a few hundred magicka return which is the other part of the picture on live which was left out of your graph but it is important because Zos is aware of both extremes.
Personally they should have kept the cost the same and reduce the magicka return per second to match their goal. Raising the cost as they have is the biggest issue.
iirc Zos chose to not have a cost placed on the Warden's Betty Netch because they wanted access to the magicka/Stam return to not be an issue if the player was low on the resource.
Raising the cost of channeled focus is inconsistent with what Zos clearly stated just over a year ago and would make that the most important part to discuss since Zos' "vision" seems to wander quite a bit.
The reason they didn't change the magicka recovery on focus is likely because, because focus is one of the morphs that has persisted since launch, they likely dont know how to edit it without breaking it entirely, so they just oped for cost.
Reguardless, it's still a nerf to the only means of sustain the class had, a class who's consistantly bad with it. So either their saying our sustain is as good as it's going to get, or their saying they dont know how to fix it. Neither really inspires much confidence.
We can all have our opinions as to why but that does not really productive.0 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is ZoS' solution to Wardens being too weak: "Just nerf Templars to make Wardens worth using." lmfao
ZoS is clueless as usual and I guarantee these terrible changes will remain in the final release.
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”6 -
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Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@NBrookus
Regardless of my confusion over the design of the graph, the information is incorrect.
On the PTS the skill lasts for 18 seconds, not the 15 you depict in the graph. The 15 seconds listed in the patch notes is for rank I of the morph, not rank IV. It is best to visit the PS itself to get an accurate picture.
That would provide a guaranteed 2400 magicka return from the cost over the duration of 18 seconds vs what looks like 1800 your graph seems to represent. That is without any cost reduction. Granted, that does pale in comparison of approximately 4500 - 5000 maximum possible today on live but is also much greater than the minimum return of only a few hundred magicka return which is the other part of the picture on live which was left out of your graph but it is important because Zos is aware of both extremes.
Personally they should have kept the cost the same and reduce the magicka return per second to match their goal. Raising the cost as they have is the biggest issue.
iirc Zos chose to not have a cost placed on the Warden's Betty Netch because they wanted access to the magicka/Stam return to not be an issue if the player was low on the resource.
Raising the cost of channeled focus is inconsistent with what Zos clearly stated just over a year ago and would make that the most important part to discuss since Zos' "vision" seems to wander quite a bit.
Thank you, corrected. My mistake for trusting the patch note.
"is also much greater than the minimum return of only a few hundred magicka return which is the other part of the picture on live which was left out of your graph" It's there; it's the red line.
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Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭DuskMarine wrote: »its still perfectly viable for endgame vet trials hm dps.
im not really a dps main i dont dps that often
people rarely used it outside of healing
?????????
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KittyHazWares✭✭✭Restoring focus is a buff for PVP templars
I do agree it sucks for you PVE DPS and healers..
They should make the Channeled Focus morph back to what it currently is. Have a PVE morph and a PVP morph..
But also.. Templars need a lot to get back in a better place as dps. I was disappointed they didn’t really get any love, even with the class rep program.
I changed my main to stam recently. I just feel very disappointed in my class from a magicka DPS standpoint.
It seems like ZOS only wants us be healers.. WITHOUT major mending mind you lolEdited by KittyHazWares on July 12, 2018 5:47PMXbox One NA9 -
radiostar✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's someone out there that can't keep their hands off the Twitter.
There's someone in here that can't keep their hands off the Templar.
Coinkidink?"Billions upon Billions of Stars"2 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Templar damage dealers just got a huge buff to dps. Stamplars got a nice buff to rune. The change to vampires bane is not that big of a deal.
I dislike the change to dark flare. That was a knee jerk nerf by ZoS and i dislike the change to channeled focus. Channeled focus needs its cost reduced.
What changed Ab Dark Flare?0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »@NBrookus
Regardless of my confusion over the design of the graph, the information is incorrect.
On the PTS the skill lasts for 18 seconds, not the 15 you depict in the graph. The 15 seconds listed in the patch notes is for rank I of the morph, not rank IV. It is best to visit the PS itself to get an accurate picture.
That would provide a guaranteed 2400 magicka return from the cost over the duration of 18 seconds vs what looks like 1800 your graph seems to represent. That is without any cost reduction. Granted, that does pale in comparison of approximately 4500 - 5000 maximum possible today on live but is also much greater than the minimum return of only a few hundred magicka return which is the other part of the picture on live which was left out of your graph but it is important because Zos is aware of both extremes.
Personally they should have kept the cost the same and reduce the magicka return per second to match their goal. Raising the cost as they have is the biggest issue.
iirc Zos chose to not have a cost placed on the Warden's Betty Netch because they wanted access to the magicka/Stam return to not be an issue if the player was low on the resource.
Raising the cost of channeled focus is inconsistent with what Zos clearly stated just over a year ago and would make that the most important part to discuss since Zos' "vision" seems to wander quite a bit.
The reason they didn't change the magicka recovery on focus is likely because, because focus is one of the morphs that has persisted since launch, they likely dont know how to edit it without breaking it entirely, so they just oped for cost.
Reguardless, it's still a nerf to the only means of sustain the class had, a class who's consistantly bad with it. So either their saying our sustain is as good as it's going to get, or their saying they dont know how to fix it. Neither really inspires much confidence.
We can all have our opinions as to why but that does not really productive.
By that logic feedback is not-productive.
And that applies retroactively so if you really feel that way apologize for all the feedback you've -ever- given.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on July 14, 2018 3:07AM1 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭Templar damage dealers just got a huge buff to dps. Stamplars got a nice buff to rune. The change to vampires bane is not that big of a deal.
I dislike the change to dark flare. That was a knee jerk nerf by ZoS and i dislike the change to channeled focus. Channeled focus needs its cost reduced.
What changed Ab Dark Flare?
Defile reduced from 4 seconds to 2 but flare was a good and fair defile. It has counterplay and is hard to keep good defile uptime with dark flare Some of the armor sets out there could keep crazy uptime on defile with no counterplay.
Developers realized that defile could be elevated to dangerous levels and took everything with a defile and nerfed it accross the board as a knee jerk reaction. Treating every skill and set with a defile ability as the same and not on an individual basis.11 -
Smasherx74✭✭✭✭✭
✭We need to nerf stamplar sustain some more imo. I really hate being able to do rotations without having to heavy attack every other ability.Master Debater6 -
Ragebull✭✭✭✭✭Why do they want people to stop playing templars? I mean I get their disinterest in wardens since they turned out all silly *tosses flowers and critters during combat* but come on! Templars are awesome. Show me off ZOS!
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cazlonb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭The core problem with ZOS' balancing is that they usually tunnel vision on one particular aspect and rarely if ever consider the appropriate context. The Dark Flare nerf is the perfect example. Yes, the Defile meta required some adjustments. I don't think anybody in the entire game ever claimed that Dark Flare was a significant part of that meta though. For Templars otoh the Defile is pretty much the only reason to put this skill on the bars at all. ( Dark Flare gank builds are technically still possible, but more in a proof of concept way than as a practical build in any content ).
So as the result we have an even before extremely situational skill further decreased in usefulness for very limited if any gain regarding the issue that was targeted.
Templars have been on the receiving end of that kind of changes constantly. The result is a class that is still playable but feels hollowed out in almost every aspect of the game.10 -
Troneon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
PC EU ADMaster Crafter - Anything you need!!High Elf Magicka Templar Healer/DPS/TankTrials / Dungeons / PVP / Everything3 -
MakoFore✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really wonder lately why I still play this game. I have as little respect for the combat team as they clearly have for Templars.
pretty much how the whole end game and competitive community feels right now. the devs have clearly put questing andlifestyle, housing and motif s above the game being balanced enough to be remotely fair. duelling and BG isnt even a contest of skill anymore- its just who has the meta gear and the cheese broken skills that work- snipe bugs (not hearing or seeing any damage go down til like the 3rd tick snipe), sloads, rune cage, we ve gone on enough. but this has been the worst combat patch EVER. worse than even the viper days- and now- lookin ahead to PTS where we have werewolves doing 70k dps with just light attacks- its clear they havent got a clue of twhat theyre doing.
the PTS should be a place of constant blaance and testing - not just throwig out the first idea that comes - without ANY type of mathematical grounding or consideration.
the breakdown of combat should be something closer to
SKILLS/co-ordination 60 percent
gear 20 percent
luck 10 percent
expereince/CP 10 percent
right now?
its gear - 50 percent
skills - 10 percent
luck 20 percent
experience/CP 20 percent
OR
zerg 100 percent.
really really disheartening. ive supported this game from the old days- financially every month- thru purhcases- ive even bought the game for 3 of my friends so they could enjoy it and get int it with me- and ive never been more disheartened and resentful of the combat devs as now. go into any BGs and its hard not to feel totally pissed off afterwards.1 -
Dillpat✭✭✭every patch i just see myself reverting my stamplar back to how it was for along time my craft b*tch grinding chara cuz its just getting more and more painful to play.
Edit: and i have 3 templars rip
my main and 2 on other factions Edited by Dillpat on July 15, 2018 11:47AM@Dillpaat PC EU/NA
Just a laggy memer
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXwr2YeTb0aQXEI99RfwQsg?view_as=subscriber?&ab_channel=DILLPAAT0 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm seriously considering deleting.. I'm currently level 31 and leveling templar is honestly like watching grass grow..
I just don't enjoy it at all, the skills are horrible the class is boring as hell and just clunky as to play. And this is in pve.. Leveled 3 nightblades and two wardens to 50 and cp 221
But my templars just deserve being deleted imo..0 -
Shadowmaster✭✭✭✭Let me tell you about the time, 4 patches ago, where we beamplars ruled the lands.
Entire raids of us spamming beam in vMoL, 7 deep, while NB tears fueled our dreams
Now, let me tell you about the great magplar exodus of the last 3 patches. Where not a one of us can be seen in top tier raids in any role other than heal monkey.
Different sides of the same coin. The problem is ZoS needs to balance for PvP or PVE, and its almost impossible to balance both together.Edited by Shadowmaster on July 16, 2018 4:12PM6
