How to fix fake dungeon roles: Dungeon Certification

fgulerneb18_ESO1 · July 2018

kick fake tanks so they can learn to que. up as their role

Gythral · July 2018

Do not use the Dungeon Finder is others upset you!

Simplest Solution

kargen27 · July 2018

Laquey wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I made that distinction. I mention groups needing random players and pre-made groups.

You are correct that the roles are defined by ESO. How we choose to play those roles should be left entirely up to us.

Your idea still locks content behind meeting some type of skill check. That should not be acceptable in any MMO.

Your idea doesn't prevent someone from qualifying as a tank, tossing away that gear, and going to a full DPS set-up in hopes of being able to just burn through a dungeon. Would just take them a little extra time to go through the training.

You're entitle to play those roles how you wish that is not in dispute however a healer still needs to heal, a Tank still needs to protect and a dps still needs to do damage. If your tank can't keep the boss focused on themselves and the instance requires it, then you're not doing your job as a tank. This is less necessary when you completely out gear an instance but for some people that's not the case.

These certification tests do not lock content more content that it not already currently locked away:

1) There are normal versions of all instances available for people to play, the normal certifications would be configured so that people passing these tests would be able to have a good chance of completing these normal dungeons. They could with little effort see almost all the content the game has to offer at the normal level. Spending five - ten minutes for a normal player going through this cert process which would teach them about their dungeon role and give them a helping hand would be a very useful thing.

2) Most if not all MMOs lock content behind skill checks. For ESO in particular:
Character Skins for Vet HM tiral kills
Vet Malestrom Arena weapons
Weapon sets for trials
Monster helms for Vet dungeons
etc etc

WoW, Ultima Online, AoC and many other MMOs did the same if you're the best you get more, it's a driving force behind all MMOs.

Regardig trolls. No I can't stop them, no one really can but I can make sure that trolls for the highest level certs have to pay a steep price.

Having to pass a certification test to join a dungeon run is locking content. If you fail the test you don't go.

Again I am all for a more advanced and intuitive tutorial program but requiring a certification test to be able to enter a dungeon for me is a no go. Have the test if you want and even offer a one time reward for finishing it. Don't require it as a prerequisite for joining a random group.

ESO is not most MMOs. Character skins, armor and weapons are not content. They are items. Items you get for finishing and meeting certain goals in the content. Content you would lock until the player passes a test. Better players get better gear in ESO now. This idea doesn't affect that in any way.

THe steep price thing...it potentially punishes all players just to provide a bit of inconvenience to the trolls.

Gladium · July 2018

This was done by the game The Secret World. In order to access Nightmare (Veteran) difficulty dungeons, you had to pass "The Gatekeeper". It was an amazing idea, but it led to a lot of frustrated players who quit when they were unable to pass the test. For player retention (and ultimately money) reasons I would say ZOS should stay away from it.

Elwendryll · July 2018

I do like the tutorial aspect of it. As a new undaunted, you would deserve a training from the more experienced ones. And I could really imagine a mini-dungeon with a few rooms, a pack of mobs, a boss with mechanics, some adds.

I don't really like the certification aspect of it, but I could accept it if it was less restrictive. For instance, it could be necessary to do a single tutorial on a character to unlock the ability to select the corresponding role in the group finder.
As a mean of insuring that anyone queuing for a role is aware of what is expected from them, not preventing fake roles or restricting the access to dungeons.

I totally disagree with specific gear or dps requirements. Mechanics are more important, having a very high DPS is nothing but a convenience in the vast majority of the situations. It allows a group to bypass mechanics and increase their chances of clearing a dungeon, except for some specific execute phases where it's truly necessary.

So, maybe, make a vMA like difficulty certification, and if a dps can get away with this with 15-20k dps but more survivability, it's ok.

TL;DR. I do like the tutorial part. I don't want the game to promote player made requirements that are actually not necessary to clear a dungeon.

Facefister · July 2018

Many people, especially DDs, wouldn't pass that.

ayu_fever · July 2018

the root of the problem is all these millennial entitled liberal children who have (or think they have) “l33t deeps” expect a fast queue because they themselves lack the mental capacity of teamwork so they proceed to do what they want with no regards for anyone else by trolling as a fake tank or healer.

play the role you signed up for, or go make a premade group and play as you want instead of trolling other players.

rfennell_ESO · July 2018

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The way to fix queue jumpers is to make dungeons 5 or 6 man.

it's the nature of the 4 man group with a total lack of tanks that causes the issue.

Can't be that hard to scale it.

I came here to make this exact point. Even WoW has long DPS queues for 5-mans but it's nowhere near as bad as ESO. I think 6-man mode would solve this problem. There just simply aren't 25% of the population with a legitimate interest in the tanking role. I doubt it's even 16%, but it's close enough to that the queues would be significantly shorter for DPS.

Also, the system described by the OP is basically Proving Grounds in WoW, which worked well enough for it's time, but has long since gone by the wayside when the main small-group progression system for the past 2-3 years was shifted from queue-able content over to pre-made team content, combined with making nearly all queue-able relatively much easier. This is something they can afford to do with more than just 2 difficulty levels.

The other solution would be to add dual spec for characters.

Increase dungeon group size to 5, add dual spec and the problem mostly fades away.

Instead... ZOS is working out another bandaid on the wrong wound fix.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · July 2018

The moment you write educate made me laugh.

Go to Wayrest or any Undaunted fire camps and check the people there: the names, the way they dress, the /zone chat. And you want to educate them? Hilarious.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.

Content is already locked behind a performance test. Why do you think so many groups wipe or can't clear?

This kind of thing just certifies some level of experience. Things like RDF wouldn't necessarily need to require it (it could be optional on the part of the person queuing), but I suspect it would go a long way towards acceptable possibilities.

Who would you rather want in your vet (possibly HM) queue, someone that's successfully performed the role 200 times, or someone that's tried to BS the queue and fake failed miserably 200 times?

It could even be a recommendation, not a requirement ~ a suggestion, if you will?

Play as you want != guaranteed clear as you want, and it never will, at least not at Vet and above.

Gythral · July 2018

Remove the queue & the rewards is the simplest solution

But I guess that would not satisfy any party, & would hurt the majority that just get on with it...

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

@Gythral do you realize how hard it was for the average person to get a group of four (any group of four, not necessarily even a capable one) before the finder?

The finder and the daily was implemented to get people back into dungeons and pledges. It's not like most Vets needed more keys or monster masks.

vonScuzzman · July 2018

The easy solution? How about when your character reaches level 50 you select your role - forever.

Then ZOS can sell a role change token as well.

Lucious90 · July 2018

just define the trinity rolls a bit more, have a bit more separation in the rolls

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · July 2018

vonScuzzman wrote: »

The easy solution? How about when your character reaches level 50 you select your role - forever.

The simple fact that you select a role does not mean you will be able to do it. That is the source of the problem. And exactly what kids and trolls enjoy doing. There is no punishment.

As a matter of fact, it would be as simple as having a proper black list system in place: you won't be grouped with anyone who's blacklisted. At some point, those kids/trolls, even if playing their real role, won't group up with anyone and must group manually.

Riptide · July 2018

The facts are this won’t work. It is an amorphous approach, requires too much dev time to implement.

And it won’t be, because everyone in that planning meeting will understand it isn’t likely to solve the problem much at all. And that its not a completely solvable issue.

Witness their approach to curbing it - simple programatic approaches, like only being able to queue for one role. Thats how theyll go moving forward.

Because they know the problem is not ignorance. It is deliberate gaming the system for queue times. Those people will do whatever tests or training, then continue their ways.

So this idea inconveniences the entire population and yet doesn’t solve the problem, and costs a good deal of dev time.

Not a personal attack, maybe if you keep thinkin you’ll come up with a simple, elegant solution - or you could vote kick imposter roles and not pug dlcs as other folks have said.

And honestly, its been since the release and console users still have no search function in the store. Still. Oh, you can search house itemsbto buy with crowns, but traders, nope. Can you imagine how many thousands of hours every single day of inconvenience that causes their customers? Years. Since beta.

In that envirinment they simply aren’t going to do this dev work for a result that irritates, not fixes the problem.

Jamdarius · July 2018

I think that you go about the problem in wrong way, instead of doing some certifications etc. they should either:
1. Set your role based on your skills and gear you have, it would become locked when entering dungeons
2. Due to low tank based characters introduce tank bots (or something along the line) if your queue exceeds 5 minutes waiting time due to no tanks queueing (but for example you cannot do hard mode with it or any dlc dungs).

In the end nothing will be done as the queue tends to be broken a lot and not many people find tanking fun to be (I am among those ppl). SO let's just stick with making guild/friends runs for dungs.

Agenericname · July 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

Laquey wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I made that distinction. I mention groups needing random players and pre-made groups.

You are correct that the roles are defined by ESO. How we choose to play those roles should be left entirely up to us.

Your idea still locks content behind meeting some type of skill check. That should not be acceptable in any MMO.

Your idea doesn't prevent someone from qualifying as a tank, tossing away that gear, and going to a full DPS set-up in hopes of being able to just burn through a dungeon. Would just take them a little extra time to go through the training.

You're entitle to play those roles how you wish that is not in dispute however a healer still needs to heal, a Tank still needs to protect and a dps still needs to do damage. If your tank can't keep the boss focused on themselves and the instance requires it, then you're not doing your job as a tank. This is less necessary when you completely out gear an instance but for some people that's not the case.

These certification tests do not lock content more content that it not already currently locked away:

1) There are normal versions of all instances available for people to play, the normal certifications would be configured so that people passing these tests would be able to have a good chance of completing these normal dungeons. They could with little effort see almost all the content the game has to offer at the normal level. Spending five - ten minutes for a normal player going through this cert process which would teach them about their dungeon role and give them a helping hand would be a very useful thing.

2) Most if not all MMOs lock content behind skill checks. For ESO in particular:
Character Skins for Vet HM tiral kills
Vet Malestrom Arena weapons
Weapon sets for trials
Monster helms for Vet dungeons
etc etc

WoW, Ultima Online, AoC and many other MMOs did the same if you're the best you get more, it's a driving force behind all MMOs.

Regardig trolls. No I can't stop them, no one really can but I can make sure that trolls for the highest level certs have to pay a steep price.

Having to pass a certification test to join a dungeon run is locking content. If you fail the test you don't go.

Again I am all for a more advanced and intuitive tutorial program but requiring a certification test to be able to enter a dungeon for me is a no go. Have the test if you want and even offer a one time reward for finishing it. Don't require it as a prerequisite for joining a random group.

ESO is not most MMOs. Character skins, armor and weapons are not content. They are items. Items you get for finishing and meeting certain goals in the content. Content you would lock until the player passes a test. Better players get better gear in ESO now. This idea doesn't affect that in any way.

THe steep price thing...it potentially punishes all players just to provide a bit of inconvenience to the trolls.

It wouldn't really lock content away, merely the dungeon finder tool. We don't have to use that now, this wouldn't change that. The exception may be the random daily.

The rest I mostly agree with. It would at best provide training to those seeking it, which could be done with out the requirement. A proving grounds style instance would be fine.

It wouldn't stop people from queuing for different roles than they intend on filling and it's not going to punish them.

Lucious90 wrote: »

just define the trinity rolls a bit more, have a bit more separation in the rolls

I don't know if that's the solution simply because it seems so many people don't like grouping, but the fact that we can clear content without a tank or a healer is what makes it seem that they're optional, even in PUGs.

Riptide · July 2018

vonScuzzman wrote: »

The easy solution? How about when your character reaches level 50 you select your role - forever.

Then ZOS can sell a role change token as well.

If they made it more like changing campaigns, expensive but not completely prohibitive, might be just the thing. One switch every 30 days.

But people would still tag a toon as a tank that isnt purely for rando dungeon enlightenment dumping.

But it might curb things a trifle.

Make some people mad who genuinely can do more than one role and who can’t stomach setting up alts for that purpose. Always a rub. But its more promising than the other ideas in the thread I saw, in my opinion.

Wifeaggro13 · July 2018

Laquey wrote: »

The problem:
People playing direct damage classes, usually, queue as a tank (mostly) or healer and can't perform the core requirements of the role in the dungeon finder group system.

The solution:
Dungeon certification!

There is already a certification system players are familiar and interact with for the crafting system to allow them to do writs to prove they can why not allow the Undaunted enclaves have a "Certification program" for all three individual roles? Not only would this be a great system for people using the dungeon finder tool but it would also provide an invaluable opportunity for ZOS to help train new players in the basics of instance running so that these players would become better MMO community members in general.

Certification would be based on character not account and would have three levels Normal, Veteran and Deadly Veteran which would tie into normal dungeons available at level 10, veteran dungeons available at champion level and DLC veteran dungeons available at CP 300.

The certification process should educate players at each level what they need to do in their role. At the normal level it would be quite basic for each role and only be open for people who had unlocked skills and trees appropriate to those roles such as one handed and shield and staves for tanking, Staves and or class skills for healing and other weapons for dps. You could integrate these comments into the current skill helping system with notations such as "This skill is used in the Undaunted dungeon training for x role at level 10" so that players were quite clear on the path they were choosing.

After the initial verification process for the role the player should be introduced to their NPC group which consists of NPCs fulfilling the roles of a dungeon and given a introduction to their role and what they need to do in the group to succeed.

The training itself should probably include a small trash clear and then one boss and depending on the difficulty level it should introduce concepts needed by the group for the players role and how to test them. For example during the trash clear a tank should gather up the hard hitting adds and try and snare the rest or soft CC them. Interrupting casters where possible and other key items while protecting the group. A dps should avoid damage where possible help interrupt and aoe down adds.

There should be small tests of these skills which should be highlighted for example during the trash run a tank should have his screen paused and a big mark placed on a obviously tanky add that is going to kill the healer. The Tank should then taunt that add and control it. Failure to do this would result in healer dying and the training session resetting.

For boss mechanics the same training concepts would apply and new players should be training how to block heavy attacks, interrupt the boss, heal a group under pressure and not stand in fire as well being trained on learning obvious boss mechanics signs while being tutored by the undaunted instructors.

You could make this a lot more fun bot not using real monsters but undaunted members in dress up gear being scary for a little levity during the process.

For more advanced levels such as Veteran and Deadly Veteran it's not so much mechanics training but capability testing. Can the DPS meet a certain minimum requirement such as 15K for deadly veteran. Can the boss take that heavy attack from the boss and live while the healer brings them up? Can the player avoid the very obvious instant death mechanic by hiding behind a wall?

There is also the potential of adding advanced role concepts such as a Tank / Healer when someone is certified for Deadly veteran and also additional certifications for higher levels of DPS by completing the Deadly veteran run in a specific period of time up to the 20 / 25 and 30 K mark as well as healing and tanking with more advanced skill sets and more difficult circumstances so you could queue at higher levels and get matched with those people who had earned the same training levels.

There is also the possibility of Advanced roles being fulfilled such as Tank / healer and Healer / DPS and if you pass these certifications you can queue as both roles but the requirements would be strict such as You need to do this certain level of DPS 15 / 20 / 25 / 30K while making sure no one dies under the same advanced training scenario.

I think this system has great merit hot only for training new players but also guaranteeing that only the most dedicated trolls can queue into a tank / DPS role and interfere with a parties progress.

Also I think it would be a fun mini game edition to ESO.

Thanks for reading.

Edit:
Since I didn't specifically say so this system wouldn't and shouldn't cover completely pre made groups of four people; they should be excluded. If full groups want to play their way more power to them. However as soon as you look for one random other person the certifications would apply.

Truthfully the problem was in ZOS's wishy washy combat ,and role design. They put far to much emphasis on competitive PVE creating a dynamic of content being completed by DPS with a smidgen of tank ,utility. healing is bit more of a requirement. so when you actually run across some content that has a firmer group dynamic of Tank heal and DPS/with some utility. you have a whole server full of dps . Had this combat design made tanking and healing more rewarding or even rquired in more content you would have less of these issues. Eventually zos will just nerf the content to where you dont need anything but a meta dps to complete.

idk · July 2018

All I need is a taunt slotted and I can tank. That is all a certification process can and would require in this game. Nothing more and nothing less could be listed. Not even HA since HA is not a tanking requirement.

Besides, what is the requirement for a DPS to be certified for "deadly veteran"? or the other levels?

Laquey wrote: »

Jameliel wrote: »

The problem is that Z0$ lumps all dungeons into one group. There is an enormous difference between Fungal Grotto and Cradle of Shadows, or between The Banished Cells and Fang Lair. When as a damage dealer, I que up for a random daily normal, why should I have to wait for 10minutes to infinity? I usually just want to run a simple dungeon to help level up a skill line. I'm nearly max cp, and understand my role well.

While it's totally acceptable and easy to use inner fire and tank Fungal Grotto, the same cannot be said of every dungeon. The easiest fix would be to revamp and FIX the group finder tool. People have been asking for it for years. Stop forcing every dungeon into one possible tier. Make three tiers, and let people choose which tier for randoms. Give the same xp so people don't continue to que as tanks. Right now it's usually the only way to get in a group within a reasonable amount of time.

I'm not trying to insult, but it just seems like an unavoidable observation. The devs seem complacent, slow and a bit dull. They make random and wild nerfs, tons of garbage armor and weapon sets no-one uses. Loads of things that make no sense to anyone with even an average intellect and intelligence. There seems to be no-one with a strong sense of objectivity and balance to lead them.

You wait for 10 minutes to infinity because there are no tanks or healers available it's as simple as that, if you wanted to change that situation under this system then certify as a normal tank (however you can) and double queue. Problem solved.

FYI normal tank certification would be a trivial 5 minute exercise for you.

OP needs to read the PTS patch notes.

Lucious90 · July 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

vonScuzzman wrote: »

The easy solution? How about when your character reaches level 50 you select your role - forever.

The simple fact that you select a role does not mean you will be able to do it. That is the source of the problem. And exactly what kids and trolls enjoy doing. There is no punishment.

As a matter of fact, it would be as simple as having a proper black list system in place: you won't be grouped with anyone who's blacklisted. At some point, those kids/trolls, even if playing their real role, won't group up with anyone and must group manually.

Wow did something that I liked and locked in specs to the dungeon roll.... While yes every class can do everything if you just define skills and atribute allocation into the roll selection... ( not to mention just group PUGs up by LvL/CP). Since you can still respec if you decide to change to a different roll the system will automatically catch it

Vercingetorix · July 2018

The only thing that's really needed is locking low CP players out of Vet DLC dungeons where all 3 roles and your proficiency at them truly matters. In non-DLC content (both Normal and Vet) you can get by with self-heals and proper movement/evasion. Sure, it may be more convenient to have a tank to hold a boss in place, but in most cases, it's not required and having more DPS can often allow the group to skip mechanics altogether.

There's only a few non-DLC vet bosses I can think of that would really benefit from a tank, but what you're suggesting is ridiculous. A "proficiency test" will not improve the quality of players in queue - it will just lower the amount of players bothering with the queue in the first place. If you're in Normal queue, you should expect fake roles and low-level players because the content is easy enough to breeze through for the daily reward. If you're in a vet queue, kick the fake tank if in a DLC dungeon and get a replacement. Problem Solved.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

Jamdarius wrote: »

I think that you go about the problem in wrong way, instead of doing some certifications etc. they should either:
1. Set your role based on your skills and gear you have, it would become locked when entering dungeons

Because I'd much rather see proof of proven success, vice someones ability to read a guide, watch a youtube build, and buy from a guild trader.

TL;DR;

IDC what gear, skills, or stats you use, so long as you're getting the job done.
I equally don't care that gear, skills, or stats you use if you still can't get the job done.

2. Due to low tank based characters introduce tank bots (or something along the line) if your queue exceeds 5 minutes waiting time due to no tanks queueing (but for example you cannot do hard mode with it or any dlc dungs).

In the end nothing will be done as the queue tends to be broken a lot and not many people find tanking fun to be (I am among those ppl). SO let's just stick with making guild/friends runs for dungs.

or make a character that can do the short supplied role yourself, and then you don't always have to wait.

If a role is in short supply, there should be additional bonus to those properly performing that role.

jaws343 · July 2018

A training program already exists. It's called normal dungeons. Normal dungeons are intended to be the training wheels that teach you how to do a dungeon. Rather than some silly certification process that would be cheesed and toothless, lock vet dungeons from players in group finder until they have completed the same dungeon on normal and lock vet 2 dungeons until the vet 1 dungeon is complete.

Want to do Elden Hollow 2 on vet in the group finder, complete Normal 1 and 2 and Vet 1 first.

Add one exception to this, if a player took a group into Elden Hollow 2 on vet outside of the group finder and completed it, it is now unlocked for them inside the group finder without the need to do the normals or vet 1.

And for Vet DLC dungeons in group finder, lock them until the player has completed every other dungeon in the game on vet or they have taken a group into that Vet DLC dungeon outside of the group finder and beaten it.

This allows all dungeons to be open to players outside of group finder, but provides a check to players attempting more difficult content within the group finder without proving they can even handle normal mode.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

@jaws343 Normal anything in this game doesn't teach jack.

Mechanics are rarely required, certainly not to the level they are on Vet, and since scaling was introduced, there is no required progression for the dungeons.

There are the level limitations, but those hardly impede anyone.

You can fumble your way through most norms with four people in any gear, with any combination of skills.

A program or rating system that actually required so many successes, and even more so, one that required you to maintain your rating, would have value.

A simple +1 for successful vet runs and a -.5 for kicks would average out to a pretty accurate indication of whether or now you knew WTH you were doing, while not impeding those learning the role. (Score wouldn't show until after so many 'votes/runs')

Seri · July 2018

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

[...]
Had this combat design made tanking and healing more rewarding or even rquired in more content you would have less of these issues. Eventually zos will just nerf the content to where you dont need anything but a meta dps to complete.

That's already the case. Once upon a time all the vet 2 dungeons (when they were the only vet dungeons) needed a solid group to clear, let alone HM. When IC was released, most groups barely got to Planar Inhibitor, let alone Kena or even HM.

The recent couple of DLC dungeons mostly still need a 'proper' group but there's no way that ZOS could go back and buff the old vanilla vet dungeons again back to what they used to feel like. There's already plenty of forum threads debating between those that would love that vs those that are happy as is or feel the DLC vet needs to be tuned downwards.

Sophocles1 · July 2018

Why won’t people tank? I love my tank dk....why is it perceived to not be fun?

Rak_am · July 2018

no no no no no... lol for all vet dungeon my friends and me never play with a healer (1 tank / 2 nb / 1 sorcerer)... let people play as they want !!

FakeFox · July 2018

This seems like a very interesting idea to me and I definitely support it. I don't see it as a solution to the "fake tank" or "fake healer" problem though.