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How to fix fake dungeon roles: Dungeon Certification
Laquey
✭✭✭
The problem:
People playing direct damage classes, usually, queue as a tank (mostly) or healer and can't perform the core requirements of the role in the dungeon finder group system.
The solution:
Dungeon certification!
There is already a certification system players are familiar and interact with for the crafting system to allow them to do writs to prove they can why not allow the Undaunted enclaves have a "Certification program" for all three individual roles? Not only would this be a great system for people using the dungeon finder tool but it would also provide an invaluable opportunity for ZOS to help train new players in the basics of instance running so that these players would become better MMO community members in general.
Certification would be based on character not account and would have three levels Normal, Veteran and Deadly Veteran which would tie into normal dungeons available at level 10, veteran dungeons available at champion level and DLC veteran dungeons available at CP 300.
The certification process should educate players at each level what they need to do in their role. At the normal level it would be quite basic for each role and only be open for people who had unlocked skills and trees appropriate to those roles such as one handed and shield and staves for tanking, Staves and or class skills for healing and other weapons for dps. You could integrate these comments into the current skill helping system with notations such as "This skill is used in the Undaunted dungeon training for x role at level 10" so that players were quite clear on the path they were choosing.
After the initial verification process for the role the player should be introduced to their NPC group which consists of NPCs fulfilling the roles of a dungeon and given a introduction to their role and what they need to do in the group to succeed.
The training itself should probably include a small trash clear and then one boss and depending on the difficulty level it should introduce concepts needed by the group for the players role and how to test them. For example during the trash clear a tank should gather up the hard hitting adds and try and snare the rest or soft CC them. Interrupting casters where possible and other key items while protecting the group. A dps should avoid damage where possible help interrupt and aoe down adds.
There should be small tests of these skills which should be highlighted for example during the trash run a tank should have his screen paused and a big mark placed on a obviously tanky add that is going to kill the healer. The Tank should then taunt that add and control it. Failure to do this would result in healer dying and the training session resetting.
For boss mechanics the same training concepts would apply and new players should be training how to block heavy attacks, interrupt the boss, heal a group under pressure and not stand in fire as well being trained on learning obvious boss mechanics signs while being tutored by the undaunted instructors.
You could make this a lot more fun bot not using real monsters but undaunted members in dress up gear being scary for a little levity during the process.
For more advanced levels such as Veteran and Deadly Veteran it's not so much mechanics training but capability testing. Can the DPS meet a certain minimum requirement such as 15K for deadly veteran. Can the boss take that heavy attack from the boss and live while the healer brings them up? Can the player avoid the very obvious instant death mechanic by hiding behind a wall?
There is also the potential of adding advanced role concepts such as a Tank / Healer when someone is certified for Deadly veteran and also additional certifications for higher levels of DPS by completing the Deadly veteran run in a specific period of time up to the 20 / 25 and 30 K mark as well as healing and tanking with more advanced skill sets and more difficult circumstances so you could queue at higher levels and get matched with those people who had earned the same training levels.
There is also the possibility of Advanced roles being fulfilled such as Tank / healer and Healer / DPS and if you pass these certifications you can queue as both roles but the requirements would be strict such as You need to do this certain level of DPS 15 / 20 / 25 / 30K while making sure no one dies under the same advanced training scenario.
I think this system has great merit hot only for training new players but also guaranteeing that only the most dedicated trolls can queue into a tank / DPS role and interfere with a parties progress.
Also I think it would be a fun mini game edition to ESO.
Thanks for reading.
Edit:
Since I didn't specifically say so this system wouldn't and shouldn't cover completely pre made groups of four people; they should be excluded. If full groups want to play their way more power to them. However as soon as you look for one random other person the certifications would apply.
Edited by Laquey on July 12, 2018 2:17AM People playing direct damage classes, usually, queue as a tank (mostly) or healer and can't perform the core requirements of the role in the dungeon finder group system.
The solution:
Dungeon certification!
There is already a certification system players are familiar and interact with for the crafting system to allow them to do writs to prove they can why not allow the Undaunted enclaves have a "Certification program" for all three individual roles? Not only would this be a great system for people using the dungeon finder tool but it would also provide an invaluable opportunity for ZOS to help train new players in the basics of instance running so that these players would become better MMO community members in general.
Certification would be based on character not account and would have three levels Normal, Veteran and Deadly Veteran which would tie into normal dungeons available at level 10, veteran dungeons available at champion level and DLC veteran dungeons available at CP 300.
The certification process should educate players at each level what they need to do in their role. At the normal level it would be quite basic for each role and only be open for people who had unlocked skills and trees appropriate to those roles such as one handed and shield and staves for tanking, Staves and or class skills for healing and other weapons for dps. You could integrate these comments into the current skill helping system with notations such as "This skill is used in the Undaunted dungeon training for x role at level 10" so that players were quite clear on the path they were choosing.
After the initial verification process for the role the player should be introduced to their NPC group which consists of NPCs fulfilling the roles of a dungeon and given a introduction to their role and what they need to do in the group to succeed.
The training itself should probably include a small trash clear and then one boss and depending on the difficulty level it should introduce concepts needed by the group for the players role and how to test them. For example during the trash clear a tank should gather up the hard hitting adds and try and snare the rest or soft CC them. Interrupting casters where possible and other key items while protecting the group. A dps should avoid damage where possible help interrupt and aoe down adds.
There should be small tests of these skills which should be highlighted for example during the trash run a tank should have his screen paused and a big mark placed on a obviously tanky add that is going to kill the healer. The Tank should then taunt that add and control it. Failure to do this would result in healer dying and the training session resetting.
For boss mechanics the same training concepts would apply and new players should be training how to block heavy attacks, interrupt the boss, heal a group under pressure and not stand in fire as well being trained on learning obvious boss mechanics signs while being tutored by the undaunted instructors.
You could make this a lot more fun bot not using real monsters but undaunted members in dress up gear being scary for a little levity during the process.
For more advanced levels such as Veteran and Deadly Veteran it's not so much mechanics training but capability testing. Can the DPS meet a certain minimum requirement such as 15K for deadly veteran. Can the boss take that heavy attack from the boss and live while the healer brings them up? Can the player avoid the very obvious instant death mechanic by hiding behind a wall?
There is also the potential of adding advanced role concepts such as a Tank / Healer when someone is certified for Deadly veteran and also additional certifications for higher levels of DPS by completing the Deadly veteran run in a specific period of time up to the 20 / 25 and 30 K mark as well as healing and tanking with more advanced skill sets and more difficult circumstances so you could queue at higher levels and get matched with those people who had earned the same training levels.
There is also the possibility of Advanced roles being fulfilled such as Tank / healer and Healer / DPS and if you pass these certifications you can queue as both roles but the requirements would be strict such as You need to do this certain level of DPS 15 / 20 / 25 / 30K while making sure no one dies under the same advanced training scenario.
I think this system has great merit hot only for training new players but also guaranteeing that only the most dedicated trolls can queue into a tank / DPS role and interfere with a parties progress.
Also I think it would be a fun mini game edition to ESO.
Thanks for reading.
Edit:
Since I didn't specifically say so this system wouldn't and shouldn't cover completely pre made groups of four people; they should be excluded. If full groups want to play their way more power to them. However as soon as you look for one random other person the certifications would apply.
25
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.
I wouldn't mind the training concept but in no way should completing it be a prerequisite to being able to play content.
I don't like when players come in with a fake role and depending on the difficulty of the dungeon if I encounter a fake role I explain why I am leaving then I go.
I would like to see a change so a player can only queue as one role. Many players just queue as all three to get in fast. We have a couple of players in our guild that likes to do this. When I group with them and we need other random players I tell them pick the role they want to play or I will not queue with them. If it is a premade group I don't care as we all go in knowing what to expect.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."13 -
Laquey✭✭✭Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.
I wouldn't mind the training concept but in no way should completing it be a prerequisite to being able to play content.
I don't like when players come in with a fake role and depending on the difficulty of the dungeon if I encounter a fake role I explain why I am leaving then I go.
I would like to see a change so a player can only queue as one role. Many players just queue as all three to get in fast. We have a couple of players in our guild that likes to do this. When I group with them and we need other random players I tell them pick the role they want to play or I will not queue with them. If it is a premade group I don't care as we all go in knowing what to expect.
I assume nothing, the roles in ESO are defined by the writers of the game and are the classic MMO roles that have been used across numerous games.
You should also have noted that this only affects the dungeon finder system not premade groups you want to roll a group your way, just walk into the dungeon as a group.
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Cêltic421✭✭✭✭Just kick the person that has the wrong role or leave group or bring it tontheir attention they may leave so you can find a proper role. thats simple. I dont want to do a test before joining a group, thats stupid. Its takes long enough for que finder. And just cause someone cant reach x amount of dmg should not be excluded from a group due to this system, let the players decide. There has been many friendships made due to a more experience player helping out.6
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AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would love to see dungeon role training provided by the Undaunted much as you describe and applaud the thought you put into your ideas. I do have a consideration:
Focus on performance, not specific skills. To instruct a tank to taunt and what the options are is fine but don't pin it to specific skills (don't preclude a magtank for example w/o s&b). Same with a healer (don't preclude stamhealers). If this flexibility was incorporated into the training, I could support making the training a prereq for queuing in the dungeon finder.
Edited by AcadianPaladin on July 12, 2018 1:07AMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo2 -
Jameliel✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem is that Z0$ lumps all dungeons into one group. There is an enormous difference between Fungal Grotto and Cradle of Shadows, or between The Banished Cells and Fang Lair. When as a damage dealer, I que up for a random daily normal, why should I have to wait for 10minutes to infinity? I usually just want to run a simple dungeon to help level up a skill line. I'm nearly max cp, and understand my role well.
While it's totally acceptable and easy to use inner fire and tank Fungal Grotto, the same cannot be said of every dungeon. The easiest fix would be to revamp and FIX the group finder tool. People have been asking for it for years. Stop forcing every dungeon into one possible tier. Make three tiers, and let people choose which tier for randoms. Give the same xp so people don't continue to que as tanks. Right now it's usually the only way to get in a group within a reasonable amount of time.
[removed bashing comment]Edited by ZOS_JesC on July 12, 2018 5:01PM6 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.5 -
Laquey✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »I would love to see dungeon role training provided by the Undaunted much as you describe and applaud the thought you put into your ideas. I do have a consideration:
Focus on performance, not specific skills. To instruct a tank to taunt and what the options are is fine but don't pin it to specific skills (don't preclude a magtank for example w/o s&b). Same with a healer (don't preclude stamhealers). If this flexibility was incorporated into the training, I could support making the training a prereq for queuing in the dungeon finder.
Very fair points I agree, I was only trying to provide an example. 1 -
Laquey✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
Except this would do exactly what you say it won't.
If I'm a DPS using the random group finder on this system queuing for a veteran dungeon without certification as a veteran tank I can't queue as that role.
If ZOS used the advanced grading system for people with this system for the harder DLCs like Fang Lair etc al and I didn't meet the Deadly Veteran (x) level as a tank I couldn't queue as that role.
This system won't prevent certified characters trolling by not performing at all or changing their gear or just generally being negative but it would halt people who couldn't perform in that role and who have not specified in that role or gear or trained for it.
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Dasovaruilos✭✭✭✭✭To fix this issue, there should be a SPECIAL option to KICK or VOTE TO KICK players called "Fake role" or something.
Players reported/kicked for that would get increasingly harsher penalties and be forbidden from using the Group Finder for longer periods of time.
Since fake tanks and fake healers do that basically ALL THE TIME, the first few times could be easy, like just a few minutes, just to prevent the system form being exploited.
But once a player starts getting 6, 7, 8 kicks for that reason in a row, he/she should get bans for 1, 2, 5, 15 days from using the Activity Finder.
And this should be ACCOUNT based, like the BANS are, not character.
Do that and I guarantee you that eventually people will stop doing that, specially if repeated offenses really punish them for WEEKS without being able to queue again.8 -
Laquey✭✭✭The problem is that Z0$ lumps all dungeons into one group. There is an enormous difference between Fungal Grotto and Cradle of Shadows, or between The Banished Cells and Fang Lair. When as a damage dealer, I que up for a random daily normal, why should I have to wait for 10minutes to infinity? I usually just want to run a simple dungeon to help level up a skill line. I'm nearly max cp, and understand my role well.
While it's totally acceptable and easy to use inner fire and tank Fungal Grotto, the same cannot be said of every dungeon. The easiest fix would be to revamp and FIX the group finder tool. People have been asking for it for years. Stop forcing every dungeon into one possible tier. Make three tiers, and let people choose which tier for randoms. Give the same xp so people don't continue to que as tanks. Right now it's usually the only way to get in a group within a reasonable amount of time.
[removed quote].
You wait for 10 minutes to infinity because there are no tanks or healers available it's as simple as that, if you wanted to change that situation under this system then certify as a normal tank (however you can) and double queue. Problem solved.
FYI normal tank certification would be a trivial 5 minute exercise for you.
Edited by ZOS_JesC on July 12, 2018 5:01PM1 -
Seri✭✭✭✭
That isn't going to change much - it's generally accepted the healer or tank roles are shorter queue times, so the dps that currently queue all 3 are just going to queue as tank or heals.I would like to see a change so a player can only queue as one role. Many players just queue as all three to get in fast.EP CP160+ Templar, Sorc, NB
DC CP160+ Templar, Sorc, DK0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is an excellent solution to the problem of people queuing as a tank or healer who are ignorant of how to perform the role.
It does nothing to solve the problem of people queuing as a tank or healer to skip the DD queue with no intention of being a tank or a healer.
Ignorant/newbie tanks and healers are fine, they can learn. Often, they want to learn.
Fake tanks and fake healers that have no intention of filling the role they queued for are an entirely different problem, and no amount of education is going to make them want to respect their group members by properly queuing.5 -
Laquey✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »This is an excellent solution to the problem of people queuing as a tank or healer who are ignorant of how to perform the role.
It does nothing to solve the problem of people queuing as a tank or healer to skip the DD queue with no intention of being a tank or a healer.
Ignorant/newbie tanks and healers are fine, they can learn. Often, they want to learn.
Fake tanks and fake healers that have no intention of filling the role they queued for are an entirely different problem, and no amount of education is going to make them want to respect their group members by properly queuing.
Agreed in spirit but the ability to certify for the higher levels of tank or healer would be very hard for someone not proficient in the craft. I would design the system so that people who can certify at Deadly Veteran level or above would effectively deserve their spots and would not be cheating the system.
Certifying as a normal tank would be easy, Veteran tank substantially harder in knowledge requirements due to 50 levels of experience and certifying as a Deadly Veteran tank would be a knowledge and gear requirement (albeit mid level for a real tank) check.
You would be forced to block heavy attacks that would kill a DD, even with shields, or fail; think earth gore level heavies. That are easy to see but can't be dodged for some reason.
Making sure you can hold and reposition the boss and avoid one shot mechanics using cover, taunt and hold multiple heavy adds through healing or blocking while the boss is otherwise occupied and prove reasonable situation awareness that tanks at that level require.
If a DD player can do all this with their char and want to queue as a tank but then don't perform as one? That's a troll and no system will prevent trollish behaviour. Since they are already certified at that level players will be able to see that that player can but isn't and immediately call it out and kick them.
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Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?2 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?
Yup. People seem obsessed with adding this and that to the queue system. So many rules that basically boil down to excluding players that don't fit their set of criteria for their run. That's fine, but that system already exists. It's called forming your own group. The solution is there, it's just that it's more work than "press one button and go" so it's not overly popular.
At this point I'd be in favor of just completely removing the queue system from all vet content. That would be wildly unpopular among many people, but ZOS has no interest in balancing any new vet content for an average pug group.Edited by redspecter23 on July 12, 2018 2:14AM3 -
Laquey✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?
This system doesn't prevent this at all fully premade groups would be excluded. If you random for one other person the system would be in affect. Your groups desire to play your way shouldn't impact other people.1 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?
This system doesn't prevent this at all fully premade groups would be excluded. If you random for one other person the system would be in affect. Your groups desire to play your way shouldn't impact other people.
Well if I want to run a random with 2 friends, people I know are completely capable, wouldn't they all have to be certified with your proposal? My cp1500 vet trials tank has to go get a certification to tank with 2 people he plays with all the time just to do a 15 minute vWGT run. The one pug has little effect here.Edited by redspecter23 on July 12, 2018 2:17AM0 -
Laquey✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?
This system doesn't prevent this at all fully premade groups would be excluded. If you random for one other person the system would be in affect. Your groups desire to play your way shouldn't impact other people.
Well if I want to run a random with 3 friends, people I know are completely capable, wouldn't they all have to be certified with your proposal? My cp1500 vet trials tank has to go get a certification to tank with 3 people he plays with all the time just to do a 15 minute vWGT run.
No that wasn't my intention and I've edited my original post to highlight this. If you have a full group of people you're not really using the dungeon finder so should be able to bypass the system. But it might be fun to certify anyway. 0 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The way to fix queue jumpers is to make dungeons 5 or 6 man.
it's the nature of the 4 man group with a total lack of tanks that causes the issue.
Can't be that hard to scale it.2 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?
This system doesn't prevent this at all fully premade groups would be excluded. If you random for one other person the system would be in affect. Your groups desire to play your way shouldn't impact other people.
Well if I want to run a random with 3 friends, people I know are completely capable, wouldn't they all have to be certified with your proposal? My cp1500 vet trials tank has to go get a certification to tank with 3 people he plays with all the time just to do a 15 minute vWGT run.
No that wasn't my intention and I've edited my original post to highlight this. If you have a full group of people you're not really using the dungeon finder so should be able to bypass the system. But it might be fun to certify anyway.
Edited it to reflect my mistake. The point still stands. You're adding extra hoops for players that don't need or want them. At least make it account wide. If I unlock the knowledge of how to tank on one toon, I don't lose that knowledge on my 14 other toons. They may not have the skills or gear, but my personal knowledge is still there. There is no way to force me to wear tank appropriate gear once I'm in the dungeon anyway. As others have mentioned, this only adds another layer for those looking to skip the queue with a fake role. They can still do it, but it takes more work. The kind of people that will fake queue and go in ignorant will still do so. It would be hard to have a certification that prepares you fully for vet DLC content.0 -
Laquey✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?
This system doesn't prevent this at all fully premade groups would be excluded. If you random for one other person the system would be in affect. Your groups desire to play your way shouldn't impact other people.
Well if I want to run a random with 2 friends, people I know are completely capable, wouldn't they all have to be certified with your proposal? My cp1500 vet trials tank has to go get a certification to tank with 2 people he plays with all the time just to do a 15 minute vWGT run. The one pug has little effect here.
With your revised comment you should be subject to the system regardless of how powerful you are using a match making system that needs to prevent abuse where possible. Honeslty if you have 1500 CP certifying Deadly Veteran with all roles would be a trivial exercise for you and your friends.0 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭With your revised comment you should be subject to the system regardless of how powerful you are using a match making system that needs to prevent abuse where possible. Honeslty if you have 1500 CP certifying Deadly Veteran with all roles would be a trivial exercise for you and your friends.
There will still be abuse no matter how many layers of certification and red tape you apply to the dungeon finder, @Laquey.
If you have specific goals in mind for a dungeon then don't use the dungeon finder.
Personally, I like using the dungeon finder every once in awhile ... some low CP players are honestly improving their playstyle and their character. Which is nice to see.0 -
Laquey✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »
Edited it to reflect my mistake. The point still stands. You're adding extra hoops for players that don't need or want them. At least make it account wide. If I unlock the knowledge of how to tank on one toon, I don't lose that knowledge on my 14 other toons. They may not have the skills or gear, but my personal knowledge is still there. There is no way to force me to wear tank appropriate gear once I'm in the dungeon anyway. As others have mentioned, this only adds another layer for those looking to skip the queue with a fake role. They can still do it, but it takes more work. The kind of people that will fake queue and go in ignorant will still do so. It would be hard to have a certification that prepares you fully for vet DLC content.
Yes I'm adding a hoop and it's not just to prevent people from fake queueing but it also servers to train people in PvE content which is sorely lacking in this game.
Regarding skill knowledge for tanking I have tanked on DK, Warden and NB using different models and they all tank differently with my NB heal tank being my favorite. The differences between DK / Warden block tanking are subtle but there is a night and day difference between them and my NB heal tank which is vastly more challenging. Skill transfer is not guaranteed.
As I've addressed in another post certifying at Deadly veteran without significant investment in knowledge and resources for tanking would be extremely hard, I would think it would be next to impossible for most DDs to survive Earthgore level heavy hits they can't dodge for (insert x reason here) without becoming an effective tank at the same level and it's a significant time roadblock for someone who wants to abuse the system to do it.
Trolls can't be stopped as you say but they can be quickly marked as someone who abused the system. Perhaps certification can be revoked if enough kicks happen to a person by a new flag such as not fulfilling role. Hmm interesting.
Regarding certification preparing for DLC content I think it's absolutely possible. Instance the training location and everything becomes possible. Most DLC dungeon content can be easily replicated in base concepts this way with harder challenges reserved for harder certifications.
Edited by Laquey on July 12, 2018 2:33AM0 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »No set of imposed rules will prevent fake queue jumpers or those players that simply aren't capable of doing certain content. Group finder does what it's meant to do. It finds a group. You want a good group? Don't pug.
^Exactly This.^
Why create more red tape when you can just run dungeons the way you want to with friends or guildies?
This system doesn't prevent this at all fully premade groups would be excluded. If you random for one other person the system would be in affect. Your groups desire to play your way shouldn't impact other people.
Well if I want to run a random with 2 friends, people I know are completely capable, wouldn't they all have to be certified with your proposal? My cp1500 vet trials tank has to go get a certification to tank with 2 people he plays with all the time just to do a 15 minute vWGT run. The one pug has little effect here.
With your revised comment you should be subject to the system regardless of how powerful you are using a match making system that needs to prevent abuse where possible. Honeslty if you have 1500 CP certifying Deadly Veteran with all roles would be a trivial exercise for you and your friends.
Trivial, yes and probably annoying doing it on all my toons.
At any rate, I have no real problem with your proposed system. I'd hardly ever use it. I only run with premades. All it would do is discourage me from pugging out the last spot if I absolutely can't find a 4th person because the odds of myself and my 2 other friends having this certification on every one of the toons we might be running with when we hardly ever pug would be pretty much zero. Rather than go certify, we'd just wait for a 4th friend or just run the dungeon later on.
I am also absolutely positive that even with this change, there would still be people complaining about bad grouping experiences. Nothing anyone can do in any way to modify the queue system can stop that.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.
I wouldn't mind the training concept but in no way should completing it be a prerequisite to being able to play content.
I don't like when players come in with a fake role and depending on the difficulty of the dungeon if I encounter a fake role I explain why I am leaving then I go.
I would like to see a change so a player can only queue as one role. Many players just queue as all three to get in fast. We have a couple of players in our guild that likes to do this. When I group with them and we need other random players I tell them pick the role they want to play or I will not queue with them. If it is a premade group I don't care as we all go in knowing what to expect.
I assume nothing, the roles in ESO are defined by the writers of the game and are the classic MMO roles that have been used across numerous games.
You should also have noted that this only affects the dungeon finder system not premade groups you want to roll a group your way, just walk into the dungeon as a group.
I made that distinction. I mention groups needing random players and pre-made groups.
You are correct that the roles are defined by ESO. How we choose to play those roles should be left entirely up to us.
Your idea still locks content behind meeting some type of skill check. That should not be acceptable in any MMO.
Your idea doesn't prevent someone from qualifying as a tank, tossing away that gear, and going to a full DPS set-up in hopes of being able to just burn through a dungeon. Would just take them a little extra time to go through the training.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
MisterBigglesworth✭✭✭✭✭
✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »The way to fix queue jumpers is to make dungeons 5 or 6 man.
it's the nature of the 4 man group with a total lack of tanks that causes the issue.
Can't be that hard to scale it.
I came here to make this exact point. Even WoW has long DPS queues for 5-mans but it's nowhere near as bad as ESO. I think 6-man mode would solve this problem. There just simply aren't 25% of the population with a legitimate interest in the tanking role. I doubt it's even 16%, but it's close enough to that the queues would be significantly shorter for DPS.
Also, the system described by the OP is basically Proving Grounds in WoW, which worked well enough for it's time, but has long since gone by the wayside when the main small-group progression system for the past 2-3 years was shifted from queue-able content over to pre-made team content, combined with making nearly all queue-able relatively much easier. This is something they can afford to do with more than just 2 difficulty levels.Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.0 -
Soella✭✭✭✭Absolutely for this kind of certification. It will help both new players to understand what is expected from them in group play and lessen burden on experienced players who have to deal with "play as you want" concept in dungeons.
Details could and should be polished, but key ideas are fine.
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Laquey✭✭✭I made that distinction. I mention groups needing random players and pre-made groups.
You are correct that the roles are defined by ESO. How we choose to play those roles should be left entirely up to us.
Your idea still locks content behind meeting some type of skill check. That should not be acceptable in any MMO.
Your idea doesn't prevent someone from qualifying as a tank, tossing away that gear, and going to a full DPS set-up in hopes of being able to just burn through a dungeon. Would just take them a little extra time to go through the training.
You're entitle to play those roles how you wish that is not in dispute however a healer still needs to heal, a Tank still needs to protect and a dps still needs to do damage. If your tank can't keep the boss focused on themselves and the instance requires it, then you're not doing your job as a tank. This is less necessary when you completely out gear an instance but for some people that's not the case.
These certification tests do not lock content more content that it not already currently locked away:
1) There are normal versions of all instances available for people to play, the normal certifications would be configured so that people passing these tests would be able to have a good chance of completing these normal dungeons. They could with little effort see almost all the content the game has to offer at the normal level. Spending five - ten minutes for a normal player going through this cert process which would teach them about their dungeon role and give them a helping hand would be a very useful thing.
2) Most if not all MMOs lock content behind skill checks. For ESO in particular:
Character Skins for Vet HM tiral kills
Vet Malestrom Arena weapons
Weapon sets for trials
Monster helms for Vet dungeons
etc etc
WoW, Ultima Online, AoC and many other MMOs did the same if you're the best you get more, it's a driving force behind all MMOs.
Regardig trolls. No I can't stop them, no one really can but I can make sure that trolls for the highest level certs have to pay a steep price.
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Laquey✭✭✭MisterBigglesworth wrote: »I came here to make this exact point. Even WoW has long DPS queues for 5-mans but it's nowhere near as bad as ESO. I think 6-man mode would solve this problem. There just simply aren't 25% of the population with a legitimate interest in the tanking role. I doubt it's even 16%, but it's close enough to that the queues would be significantly shorter for DPS.
Also, the system described by the OP is basically Proving Grounds in WoW, which worked well enough for it's time, but has long since gone by the wayside when the main small-group progression system for the past 2-3 years was shifted from queue-able content over to pre-made team content, combined with making nearly all queue-able relatively much easier. This is something they can afford to do with more than just 2 difficulty levels.
I think it would take quite a bit of rework for dungeons to be adjusted to 5-6 toon play but it's something that could be worth looking in to reduce queue times.
As for proving grounds yes it is similar but much more advanced. You didn't have a group to interact with and manage, training and real advice isn't offered during the process at the basic level and it didn't integrate with the game very well at all. I would like the Undaunted system to allow a player to walk up and go through the process and feel like they've completed part of the story.
WoW's current Dungeon system with Mythic+ difficulty is terrible and that along with the world quest grind and legendary RNG drops were some of the primary reasons I no longer play that game after 10 years.
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