remilafo wrote: »

It's a bad idea..

I often queue as all three well because i can actually do all three and have various gear sets for that purpose.

Tanks may be more rare.

Most if not all Mag DD also have a heal spec.

Most if not all Stam DD have a tank spec...

forcing one role is a dumb idea.

The problem happens when a person queues as all three but then doesn't check what the dungeon is telling them they got in as. I always queue as Healer on my characters that can heal competently. Often I get in, and as we to though the dungeon I see that there is another person healing as well, because they queued as DPS/Healer and forgot to check that they are the DPS.

Yesterday I decided to queue for random normals as DPS so I can take my time doing overland content. In one of these dungeons the "tank" was not taunting the bosses and keeping them in place. At first I asked the CP 200 player in group chat whether they had a taunt and after a couple of minutes it was clear that I was not going to get an answer (this person was also marked as DPS and tank the latter being 100% BS considering their lack of a taunt and their focus on only using bow abilities) One could also argue that they were a fake DPS due to their low damage output, but that's a very different discussion. Thankfully I'm playing on pc and was able to switch to my frost staff tank instantly via alphagear. Even in normal dungeons I like a certain degree of order and it is annoying to perform my DPS rotation on a controllable boss who is acting erratic/moving out of my aoe.

I don't like to vote kick people especially in normal dungeons where people are still in the process of learning how to play. I personally like the change of being only allowed to mark yourself as one role. I used to mark myself as all three, since I had the gear/skills needed to perform any role required of me, but the majority of the time the tank role would beat out all the rest. This made me realize that I would need to queue for only one role if I truly wanted to play a role besides tank. I know fake tanks/healers will still queue up for dungeons, but I feel like I'll now have a more valid reason to initiate a kick, since those players will no longer have the excuse of not realizing which role they were assigned.

I also feel that it would be a terrible mistake to limit a player's role placement via stats/skills. My frost staff tank has DPS level health of 17K, but more often than not my knowledge of mechanics and my damage shields are more than enough to tank Vet vanilla dungeons and any normal dungeons. In most normal dungeons when the healer is having a bad day replenishing barrier alone can keep everyone alive throughout the entire fight, while I keep the boss in place. In a lot of groups a healer might not be necessary and it would be unfortunate for a healer to automatically be kicked for removing a healing ability that was marked as required for their dungeon placement. Such limits are ridiculous considering how many ways there are to play this game. If someone is truly not performing properly and holding the group back either power through or vote kick the individual.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

ceil420 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I don't remember which thread it was, but somebody pointed out that the queue system does some very screwy things at times. It seems to bug out for no reason a lot.

What if all of these issues are caused by some system limitation that just causes grouping hickups when players select multiple roles?

Everyone is saying that it will lead to longer queue times, but that's assuming the system is working fine at present. If this solves some under-the-hood problem with the grouping tool, it could actually lead to shorter queue times on average. I say we wait and see.

That's a ridiculous argument. Even if there are group finder problems, how do we know it's not caused by you, personally, queuing with them? You gonna not queue again until we're sure that ain't the case?

If there were back-end problems caused by multi-role grouping, ZoS would have certainly listed that as justification for the proposed change. They did not, and instead pointed to issues that this 'fix' will flat-out not solve.

You're assuming that ZOS is forthcoming about their justification and not just covering for the fact that they can't do a proper fix for their spaghetti code. There's even a precedent for this, look at animation cancelling lol.

You're right that it won't solve the problem of people queueing up for roles they have no business doing, but I do think it'll make some people a bit more hesitant at least.

Besides, you're failing to see the big picture here: it is exceedingly time-intensive to have a character be an effective multi-roller in this game. Having to respec at shrines makes it impossible to switch on the fly, and there are so many skill points required for any given role that only dedicated veterans will have enough for points to be effective 2 or even 3 roles at once. The same goes for how specialized gear generally is.

I would imagine that, of the players using the LFG tool, maybe 5% can effectively play multiple roles. Maybe. With this in mind, changing the LFG tool to trigger less internal hiccups and maybe have a slight reduction on "fake tanks" and "fake healers" is worth it to the playerbase as a whole. Of course ZOS will side with the majority in most of these situations.

PS: don't even bother making a forum poll about this, as the forums are heavily skewed towards the hardcore crowd so data collected here is meaningless

You DONT have to respec at shrines or go get other mundus stones to perform roles effectively. As an example, I have a toon that can tank while putting out 20k+ DPS...mind you, this is with tanking gear and skills(at least on the one bar). Swapping to DPS gear and skills raises this to 30k DPS. Not the highest DPS its true...but plenty good enough for regular vet dungeons. This particular toon is a compromise....he cant effectively tank some of the more difficult vet DLC dungeons, but I also don't take him places he cant handle the tanking requirements. The point is, this is a reasonable multi-role toon capable of performing both roles in the content I take him too without ever re-speccing skills, attribute, champion points, or mundus stones. I use an add-on for a gear/skill change at the click of a button and I am ready to go in either role

I’m not a big fan of finding myself in a dungeon with a “healer” that never throws out a single heal the entire time or a “tank” that can’t seem to pull the boss off of me. You can definitely tell a difference when the whole group is playing the role they queued for.

But I’m not sure how this will fix the problem of people queuing for any role just to get in quicker.

ceil420 wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

Such limits are ridiculous considering how many ways there are to play this game. If someone is truly not performing properly and holding the group back either power through or vote kick the individual.

Funny how I can quote the last two sentences in your post and use them in support of keeping multi-role queuing in place. If you would kick someone for checking the wrong box in single-queue, there should be zero problem with kicking someone for checking the wrong box in multi-queue. If they're not willing or able to do the job they were brought into the group to do, they don't deserve to be in that group. Simple as.

If you bothered to read my post you'd see that I used to queue for all three roles, and would change gear/skills to fulfill that role. Also my frost staff tank technically is performing the role of DPS and tank, but is primarily focused on being the tank. My problem is not with you who could fulfill multiple roles, but with those who cannot. From what I can tell when queueing for multiple roles the tank role is what you'll be assigned most of the time.

In a ideal world when you queue for all three roles there would be an equal chance of being selected for any of them, but that is not the case due to the large number of DPS players. If it were I would say keep the ability to queue for multiple roles in place for the equally random chance to play any of the three roles. Honestly one could utilize a random number generator if one is indecisive of what role they should queue for.

My quote in context relates to some posts talking about placing restrictions to determine what role a player can play, which is truly ridiculous.

Soleya wrote: »

I queued as Tank (since I'm actually a tank on this character).



But I was 45% of the group dps, so should I have queued as the DPS instead?

If your character's primary focus is tanking then queue as tank. The DPS you contribute to the group is a bonus. Also DPS queue takes a very long time so unless you genuinely want to be the primary damage dealer that does not taunt bosses there is no point especially if your character is focused on tanking. There are a lot of bad DPS in this game so your bonus damage is greatly appreciated.

Soleya wrote: »

I queued as Tank (since I'm actually a tank on this character).



But I was 45% of the group dps, so should I have queued as the DPS instead?

LOL you should have kicked both your DPS!

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I don't remember which thread it was, but somebody pointed out that the queue system does some very screwy things at times. It seems to bug out for no reason a lot.

What if all of these issues are caused by some system limitation that just causes grouping hickups when players select multiple roles?

Everyone is saying that it will lead to longer queue times, but that's assuming the system is working fine at present. If this solves some under-the-hood problem with the grouping tool, it could actually lead to shorter queue times on average. I say we wait and see.

I was thinking about the same thing as well. How many time have I queue as a DPS for hours with no success, then requeue and immediately get into a group. There is definitely some logic issue in the group finder and maybe instead of actually debugging it, ZSO just start throwing idea at the wall and see what stick.

The solution is simple, make it a reportable offence to queue for a role that you have no intention of doing. After X amount of reports ban them from group finder for like a week and if they continue to abuse the system make it a permanent ban.

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

It's a bad idea..

I often queue as all three well because i can actually do all three and have various gear sets for that purpose.

Tanks may be more rare.

Most if not all Mag DD also have a heal spec.

Most if not all Stam DD have a tank spec...

forcing one role is a dumb idea.

I think it’s a great idea. Choose your single role and queue.

When you multiqueue, do people wait around for you to swap your gear and skills?

I’ve seen far too many multiqueue people that can’t really do any of the three roles chosen.

You get 60s once queue pops before you even have to accept/decline. As mentioned, addons on PC easily allow this so I can see a queue pop, change gear/skills, then port in and no-one is any wiser.

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

With the right addon swapping roles\gear\action bars happens in one click. Maybe that point has validity on console but not for pc.

As for performance of players well that is case by case isnt it. Im sure there are some bad everything out there but there are also people who can solo vet dungeons. Im one of them.

Restricting role selection at minimum will increase queue time, thats just math. Not opinion.

Restricting role will increase queue times for those “clever” damage dealers that select tank for faster groups.

They’ll be booted for not completing their chosen role.

I’ve literally seen people go in after a dungeon has started and quickly remove tank and healer roles.

IMO it'll increase queue-times in general as someone who can genuinely do multiple roles is forced to pick one - if there's 10 groups in queue all waiting on a tank, and you're forced to pick out of tank or healer (my magplar could do both, but mains a healer), then you yourself are added to healer queue and the first group still can't get in.

One of ZOS' reasons for removing the ability is that people are confused by what role they are. I'm not sure how they're somehow missing the giant 'YOUR DUNGEON IS READY. YOUR ROLE IS <ROLE>' in the accept message. And then for those that remove their roles after that, there's the giant role icon next to your name in the default unit frames once you're in the dungeon. There is no reason that people should be unsure of what they're supposed to be doing once in the dungeon.

Swaping between mag dps and healer is pretty easy, i have cleared all vet dlc (all hard mode too except fang and scp) as both a dps and a healer with the same character. Dual queuing doesn’t mean you will fulfill 2 roles at the same time, it means you are able to fulfill the role you are assigned.

Would you guys like the idea of having the option to queue up without any role at all?

Every group has to find a way to survive. Of course, this owuld be very hard on vet DLCs. And interestingly, this could be easily achieved if everyone had all three roles activated: the waiting time would have been the same for everyone.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Would you guys like the idea of having the option to queue up without any role at all?
.

YES!!! So much yes.

Shadowmaster wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

That would cripple stamina healers, frost staff tanks, magSorc tanks, hybrid builds.

You assume those non-meta builds are desirable by the other players in your group. There is a reason some stuff is meta.

Pledges are a chore, not a time for us to screw around while you test out the build you should have tried on your training dummy.

Is there a tanking dummy? One that does a whole bunch of mechanics you have to defend against? Honestly I want to know.

DenMoria wrote: »

Okay. Somebody tell me what a "Real" tank's stats are. Not what they are to do, I already know that, but, how much health they are "required" to have or, alternatively, how much "stamina" or "magicka", etc. Also, what DPS are they supposed to pull (if any), what buffs are they "required" to have and, unless they're high-CP, what weapons and accouterments to you expect them to have.

Maybe if you specifically lay out what Meta requirements are to be met (I'm assuming anyone who claims to be a tank would know the correct rotations and actions to take in the role).

Please, enlighten me.

Resistance cap is 33.1k so being near the cap is one requirement. A taunt is another requirement.

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

Let the system decide what role you're best suited for. You shouldn't be able to queue as a tank if you don't have taunts. You shouldn't be able to queue as a healer if you don't have restoration abilities.

easy to exploit by sloting taunt/resto skill then desloting them.