Difficulty Does NOT Equal Quality

karekiz · July 2018

All depends on group guys. All depends on group...

The dungeons are well balanced for what they need to be. DLC are rough, but not un-puggable. There needs to be a starting point and an ending point.

I would assume that start is FG1 - that end is Vet HM trials for the devs thouights. Vet DLC dungeons hit that middle ground.

dtsharples · July 2018

DLC content is added to offer players new experiences. New Challenging Experiences.
They aren't added simply to add a new dungeon to the daily pledges.

Who would buy DLC content if it wasn't challenging? What would be the point of it at all?

You can learn the mechanics online by watching videos, and reading through the numerous written dungeon guides.
If people just leave the dungeon as soon as they see it is a DLC one, how are they ever going to get enough in-game practice to actually learn anything?
They are supposed to be difficult, they are supposed to test the group in whichever role they have chosen.
The best thing they did was put the 300CP lock on DLC dungeons.
By 300CP you should have a clear understanding of your class and role. (Unless you levelled just grinding mobs, and then that is your own fault).

I'd suggest joining a Guild, and making some in-game friends who you can run more difficult content with.
People who you 'know' are much more likely to be patient and accommodating.

IMO 1 extra undaunted key is not worth running the DLC content in a pug group. I have cleared almost everything in game, and I wouldn't put myself through the stress of pugging Cradle of Shadows HM, or Scalecaller etc. It just isn't worth it.

Lord_Ninka · July 2018

I'd get bored if there wasn't anything more difficult than non-dlc dungeons. You are right that difficulty does not equal or even imply quality, but for me it is a necessary part of quality, so to speak.

Apache_Kid · July 2018

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

I'd get bored if there wasn't anything more difficult than non-dlc dungeons. You are right that difficulty does not equal or even imply quality, but for me it is a necessary part of quality, so to speak.

Well-said. Difficultly does not inherently equal quality but they usually go hand in hand for me!

maxetro · July 2018

You all talk about guilds, "freiends" etc. But I dont want to join any guild or look for a "friends" in mmo. I dont like to chat, I dont want to socialize in a game and so one. I want to jump in to random group, run through the dungeon without saying a single word in a chat, complete the dungeon and leave. I can do it with any base game dungeon, Imperial City dlc dungeons and Cradle of Shadows. But not with the Mazatun and new ones, and this needs to be fixed, because i'm not going to extend my subscription when my current 3 months plan will end.

dtsharples · July 2018

maxetro wrote: »

You all talk about guilds, "freiends" etc. But I dont want to join any guild or look for a "friends" in mmo. I dont like to chat, I dont want to socialize in a game and so one. I want to jump in to random group, run through the dungeon without saying a single word in a chat, complete the dungeon and leave. I can do it with any base game dungeon, Imperial City dlc dungeons and Cradle of Shadows. But not with the Mazatun and new ones, and this needs to be fixed, because i'm not going to extend my subscription when my current 3 months plan will end.

That is because you can't guarantee the quality or experience of the other 3 people who you find via the RDF.
Maybe one day you'll get lucky and the other 3 people will all be very knowledgeable about vMazzatun and you'll have a nice easy run.
But until you join a guild or make some friends, luck is the only way your'e gonna get it done.
I'd just keep queuing for Mazzatun with my both my fingers crossed for now.

kylewwefan · July 2018

maxetro wrote: »

You all talk about guilds, "freiends" etc. But I dont want to join any guild or look for a "friends" in mmo. I dont like to chat, I dont want to socialize in a game and so one. I want to jump in to random group, run through the dungeon without saying a single word in a chat, complete the dungeon and leave. I can do it with any base game dungeon, Imperial City dlc dungeons and Cradle of Shadows. But not with the Mazatun and new ones, and this needs to be fixed, because i'm not going to extend my subscription when my current 3 months plan will end.

That’s what I mean. Although I like to chat. Many people don’t. Can’t run new stuff like basegame. Only way to take dlc off is to end subscription.

Royaji · July 2018

maxetro wrote: »

You all talk about guilds, "freiends" etc. But I dont want to join any guild or look for a "friends" in mmo. I dont like to chat, I dont want to socialize in a game and so one. I want to jump in to random group, run through the dungeon without saying a single word in a chat, complete the dungeon and leave. I can do it with any base game dungeon, Imperial City dlc dungeons and Cradle of Shadows. But not with the Mazatun and new ones, and this needs to be fixed, because i'm not going to extend my subscription when my current 3 months plan will end.

Sounds like MMOs are really not for you. I'm sorry but if the game was balanced around "I don't want to talk to anyone during group content" people it would be extremely boring for everyone else. Nothing needs to be fixed. There are dozens of games that will suit your platstyle better.

maxetro · July 2018

Royaji wrote: »

Sounds like MMOs are really not for you. I'm sorry but if the game was balanced around "I don't want to talk to anyone during group content" people it would be extremely boring for everyone else. Nothing needs to be fixed. There are dozens of games that will suit your platstyle better.

I'm playing mmo's since Anarchy online, and I were fine with my playstyle in almost any game. I don't want to do vet trials or vDSA for score runs, because I understand that it was not designed for pug groups in a first place, but i want to be able to do dungeons. Because it's daily, you know? Content that you are suppose to do every day. And this new dungeons is in a random pull too, so it should be possible to do it with random pug group, who is even never been there before.

Royaji · July 2018

maxetro wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Sounds like MMOs are really not for you. I'm sorry but if the game was balanced around "I don't want to talk to anyone during group content" people it would be extremely boring for everyone else. Nothing needs to be fixed. There are dozens of games that will suit your platstyle better.

I'm playing mmo's since Anarchy online, and I were fine with my playstyle in almost any game. I don't want to do vet trials or vDSA for score runs, because I understand that it was not designed for pug groups in a first place, but i want to be able to do dungeons. Because it's daily, you know? Content that you are suppose to do every day. And this new dungeons is in a random pull too, so it should be possible to do it with random pug group, who is even never been there before.

It's not that easy to organize a raid every day. Finding 12 people and all that. So in your opinion organized groups of 4 people should only have vDSA and... That's it. There are only 8 DLC dungeons. 4 of them are pretty puggable these days too. Compare that to 20+ base game dungeons. And you always have normal mode if you have to do the pledge.

Why can't we have a small part of content that is not faceroll easy for anyone who has a mic and is not afraid to talk to other people?

LadyNalcarya · July 2018

maxetro wrote: »

You all talk about guilds, "freiends" etc. But I dont want to join any guild or look for a "friends" in mmo. I dont like to chat, I dont want to socialize in a game and so one. I want to jump in to random group, run through the dungeon without saying a single word in a chat, complete the dungeon and leave. I can do it with any base game dungeon, Imperial City dlc dungeons and Cradle of Shadows. But not with the Mazatun and new ones, and this needs to be fixed, because i'm not going to extend my subscription when my current 3 months plan will end.

You can still do normal versions, if you're a semi-decent dd you can carry the group. You'll see the same quests, same bosses, and it's easy enough to pug.
And if its """""fixed""""" then guilds and groups of friends wont have anything to do. Group content is already a very small part of this game, most of it can be soloed so it already caters to your category of players.

maxetro · July 2018

No I don't. I don't want to do normal versions, I can't get helmets there, or skins, or motifs. And dlc dungeons is still in random pull list, so I even can't do random vet dungeons, because sometimes game throws me in to dlc dungeons 6 or even 7 times in a row.

Riptide · July 2018

Good gracious. The entire, massive, overland world is trivial content. And normal versions of everything is available.

What the game needs is a veteran overland mode, so that it isn’t such a shift when you drop into a vet dungeon. That shift makes a lot of folks think the difficulty is higher than it is.

But when you queue in from VMA and people are wiping because they dont eat food, don’t use pots, run some build focused on roleplaying a khajiit mage with a penchant for healing w vigor, well. Content feels very manageable to you because you are acclimated to living on the balls of your feet. Not because you are elitist, not because you can’t sympathize - but because the content is entirely manageable and you are in a different mindset as you play non trivial content while the folks struggling do.

idk · July 2018

Wow, this is great. We have people on their high horses telling others to get off their high horses. Seems like jousting.

TheNightflame · July 2018

There are supposed to be things that people can't complete and need to work on their character or skill to do. without progress a lot of people wouldn't keep coming back to the game. At the same time, there are groups that are doing speed no death and hardmode all at once of dlc dungeons. They're some of my favourite content in the game, the last thing I want is for them to be nerfed.

gnarlyvandal · July 2018

Normal content is (or at least should) be doable for the majority of players, with the exception of maybe a couple of the more recent dlc dungeons. Normal content is pretty damn easy with the most basic of rotations. I know that might sound smug to some players that cant complete normal content, but honestly it’s a learn to play issue; all games have their rules and fighting mechanics that you need to learn and practice to get better at. Why should this game be any different?

Area of Effect and Damage over Time skills are severely under utilised by many newer players, especially the former, which can help trash clear times hugely... but just try informing a player of that when they seem to have neither slotted; usually they either leave or vote to kick the party member that pointed it out, without even thinking about why it’s suggested.

Happened to me the other day, was healing vCOA on my Nightblade, doing 60% of group dps and somehow combat metrics telling me I’m doing 108% of the healing, letting the tank pull and not running ahead... but we had one lowbie dd, and one in cp500’s that was a werewolf the whole time, which is fine, but he was always on the corner of the fighting with a random trash mob light attacking the whole time.... except the times when he pounced and roared a big trash pack, causing all of them to run out of my aoes, thus slowing clear times even further.

Entire group had itchy feet and ran all over the place (didn’t understand my ground abilities). I was the only one that had died, both times it was to save one of the others whilst they were on the far side of the room (le facepalm) and got kicked from the group without a word. I was actually pretty happy I got kicked, as I was at the time about to leave anyway, but it just shows how little understanding some people have of how to play this game. I bet the group was disbanded within 5 minutes because of such low dps and probably no other healer willing to put up with their uselessness. Honestly, I think it would’ve been easier solo.

I do think there needs to be a middle ground level, the difficulty jump from normal to vet is quite significant and it’s easy to see how that’d put a lot of newer players off. Or if it doesn’t put them off, they’re kinda stranded with little direction on how to improve.

So my suggestions, either:

1) introduce a ‘middle’ tier between normal and vet that players can use as a stepping stone to vet content

2) I was going to say bring out a training arena, this already kind of exists in the form of vMA. It has an excellent range of enemies with mechanics you’ll recognise from bosses all over Tamriel

3) Some sort of quest/tutorial that explains how to fight would be helpful

(Sorry for the essay!)

karekiz · July 2018

maxetro wrote: »

You all talk about guilds, "freiends" etc. But I dont want to join any guild or look for a "friends" in mmo. I dont like to chat, I dont want to socialize in a game and so one. I want to jump in to random group, run through the dungeon without saying a single word in a chat, complete the dungeon and leave. I can do it with any base game dungeon, Imperial City dlc dungeons and Cradle of Shadows. But not with the Mazatun and new ones, and this needs to be fixed, because i'm not going to extend my subscription when my current 3 months plan will end.

I just finished a PuG in Vet Mazz. The group really didn't know easy way to do HM <best attempt was getting it to execute on our 3rd try, but someone said they didn't want to bother>. The boss on regular was easy one shot. Granted I usually do it slightly different by hugging middle and max ranging statue so that you basically never have to actually move much of anywhere. Then healer/dps/dps all drop ults on first totem spawn after xal'nir to push execute phase and kill before 2nd totem pop.

If you really want to do it then shout out in town for players who have completed HM already. If not just take one key. Honestly fang lair is probably much more difficult to pug due to the 3 animal fight and people not doing Dogs.

If you want help doing something like Vet Mazz list your in game info. We might want you in discord, but could if group has empty slots take you through.

Gladium · July 2018

maxetro wrote: »

No I don't. I don't want to do normal versions, I can't get helmets there, or skins, or motifs. And dlc dungeons is still in random pull list, so I even can't do random vet dungeons, because sometimes game throws me in to dlc dungeons 6 or even 7 times in a row.

You need to lower your expectations if you think you can ever get challenger achievements using the group finder..

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

kylewwefan wrote: »

DLC dungeons aren’t like this. Not at all. Their normal version are kind of fun, but like base game, a bit too easy for over leveled players.

Vet takes it to a whole new level.

Isn't that kind of the point? There is no real required progression anymore. When things were zone leveled, the dungeons got progressively more difficult by default. Your skills and group play progressed in the process, as well.

Now that you can go anywhere, at any time, at basically any level, and even worse with norm, you have access to walk in the door, regardless of if you're ready or not.

If you haven't cleared the base game dungeons, you probably should do that first before considering the DLC's.

They're supposed to be mini-expansions for a reason.

One shot mechanics, harder hitting mobs, Tanky mobs, run you out of resources fights, enraged mobs and bosses, etc.

Aside from Stormfist (which is a standard Storm Atro mechanic, actually), which dungeon has an enrage mechanic again??

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Every game in existence has older content get easier as new content is released ... except ESO.

Not really... Do you remember the times when Sanctum Ophidia used to be difficult? Or WGT/ICP? Or vMA?

I guarantee he does. Things got easier because players got better, not even so much because of power creep or rebalancing.

rexagamemnon wrote: »

If we are paying for the dungeon DLC’s, then the ability to get monster mask should not be as difficult simply handed to us.. I dont like having to pay for dungeons and find it impossible to get dungeon masks especially since i am mostly a solo player and am no very active socially in the pve side. Make it to where monster mask can be achieved at norm level but make the blue quality instead of purple like all the other gear is what i say.

Fixed it for you. Buying the DLC grants you access, not a guaranteed clear.

If you want an easy clear, do norm. There are plenty of others that buy the DLC's because they want the challenge. They don't want the faceroll that norm provides.

Norm if for immersion and story. If you want a helm, clear it on Vet, or cheese it from the Golden, as has already been suggested.

If you're primarily solo, why are you shelling out $ for group content in the first place? (And please don't argue that it's not fair to restrict group content rewards to group content.)

Vet (and the mask that comes with it) is accessible for the majority of the playerbase. It may not be a right away thing. It does require that you learn and know what you're doing, however.

FTR: The game doesn't need to be nerfed, it simply needs to be made responsive. It's that that prevents a lot of players from getting a clear, more so than difficulty or ability ever will.

kylewwefan · July 2018

Flesh atronach get enraged.

The number of groups I leave at the planar inhibitors will continue to grow. Same with the bear, Guar, sanche Boss. Even still, most times I get a dlc random dungeon, might as well bail.

I’m not of the mind frame that any Trial be considered easy at this point. Honestly, there’s tons of players that just don’t know them.

The new trials are great. Short quick trials. The gear drops really helps the light attack spammers. Then you try Vet. And it’s just soul crushing.

Druid40 · July 2018

No more one-shot mechanics --- for tanks. If you sneeze and drop block you shouldn't die from one hit at full health.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

So ICP, one out of several dungeons. (I've never had a Flesh Atro enrage elsewhere, Spindle II, for instance.)

Druid40 wrote: »

No more one-shot mechanics --- for tanks. If you sneeze and drop block you shouldn't die from one hit at full health.

@Druid40 you don't even have to drop block now, with the *** desync's, delays, and fringe AoE's happening lately. (Did vScalecaller and vFang both yesterday on alt account and it was atrocious.)

I have not problem eating dirt if I'm the one making the mistake, but it's irritating when you're doing everything right (and your group is too), but you're getting server sync ****ed and having to start over.