Difficulty Does NOT Equal Quality

kylewwefan

I saw this posted in another thread, and it really resonated with me and my in game experiences. I use group finder a lot as many do. Most times it’s random, sometimes for specific dungeons.

It feels like the regular base game dungeons are about perfect for group finder both normal and vet. They have the right difficulty and decently fun enough to keep you coming back for more.

Then there’s DLC dungeons. Having gone through them all with trusted teammates, they can be lots of fun. With players that don’t know them it is quite painful.

It took years for ZOS to nerf WGT so more casuals could have a chance to complete. It’s Still painful with pugs. That is the easiest of DLC dungeons. Not fun. Good luck with the rest. Still nearly impossible for most group finder pugs I’ve ever been a part of.

Ok. So what I’m thinking the best solution for these problems is the whole difficulty situation. Normal/Veteran/Hardmode.

Normal is fine where it is honestly.

Veteran needs to come down a few notches. One shots need to go. I’m sure the devs can figure something out.

The current Hardmode at last boss, should be at the beginning and ramp up the whole Difficulty not just last boss. Go ahead with the one shot stuff here.

When Shadows of the Hist came out, these Dungeons were being referred to as mini trials because of their difficulty. Now they’re just DLC dungeons. Let that sink in.

This is paid content. Additional to the base game. An excellent benefit with ESO+

The current difficulty does not support a casual, looking for a little something more challenging than normal player. It’s over the top. Not in a good way.

Gladium

kylewwefan wrote: »

This is paid content. Additional to the base game. An excellent benefit with ESO+

Like you said you are getting the normal version too, so I do not quite understand what the problem is? Is it that you are too good for normal, but not good enough for veteran? Someone is always going to fall in between two categories.

kylewwefan

Veteran DLC is poo. More than half the groups I get into can’t complete it. That’s a real problem. Many people rely on group finder to run content or go to Cyrodil for fun. Both are in a bad place right now.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Dungeons are fine as is. Harder means harder, not nerf it so everyone can complete it. I've been in this game for a very long time and many nerfs should not have happened. Now people can steam roll through a lot of Vet dungeons running dropped gear of mixed sets and or just crappy Training gear.

Some players cannot beat Normal mode dungeons. It is what it is. For instance, I pugged Vet Fang Lair not long ago and during the first boss fight both DD's left Group. DURING THE FIGHT. Leaving me and the Healer to beat the boss. We did. One DD wrote in chat "Oh, I remember this fight now, I can't do this. Sorry." And they both left. They didn't even try. We got two replacements and continued on. At the three Wolves we lost the Healer due to time issues and another DD. Got two more and after that Steam rolled the dungeon.

Some people don't want to learn the mechanics and better their DPS, Healing, Tanking. I run into them often. Some players, perhaps a low percentage are here for the end game hard core content such as I. We strive to get our characters and skill levels to where they need to be to accomplish the tough stuff. We don't want dungeons nerfed over and over because others don't want to work hard to beat these dungeons.

One last comment: I ran pledges in Normal mode the other day with guildies and their CP levels were 916, 545 and 489. They struggled with Normal non dlc dungeons. I was on one of my Healers and averaged over 50% Group DPS. No one died either. I expect players by the time they reach those CP levels to at least know some rotations to lay down good DPS. When I write in Chat "You guys need to do some AOE damage" and the response is "What is AOE?" I know it's going to be tough.

Sparr0w

Nah.

Drdeath20

Yeah my CP 97 completed vet fungal grotto i will now que up for vet ruin of mazzatun

Drdeath20

It always boils down to the damage dealers. If your group has enough dps and they dont stand in stupid then your tank and healer can further stregthen the group by other ways.

Bad damage dealers cause the tank to struggle just to stay alive and cause the healer to be strictly a healbot instead of a extra dd

maxetro

I completely agree with OP. New DLC dungeons is total crap.

I didn't played ESO since Shadows of the Hist DLC. Cradle of Shadows and Mazatun already were almost unachievable for me. But when I returned after release of Summerset and tried one of the new dungeons for first time (it was Bloodforge, if I remember right) and wiped on a first boss up for 10 times, I decided not to do any of it. Never.

So now, when I get one of this 4 new dungeons in a random que, I'm just leaving on the start. 15 minutes penalty is better than spoiled nerves.

kylewwefan

Ok. Let me stuff my ego back into the box.

Vaults of Madness.

It’s listed as the hardest base game dungeon. There’s usually no problem completing this dungeon even on HardMode with any groupfinder pug I’ve ever been in. Also happens to be one of the best looking IMO.

It may sound like a bold statement, but I suspect most groups can complete this fairly easy.

DLC dungeons aren’t like this. Not at all. Their normal version are kind of fun, but like base game, a bit too easy for over leveled players.

Vet takes it to a whole new level. One shot mechanics, harder hitting mobs, Tanky mobs, run you out of resources fights, enraged mobs and bosses, etc.

It’s not really fun. It’s not the stuff that made people fall in love with the game. That’s where the problem lies I think.

idk

OP assessment of changes is off.

He/she seems to be basing changes off of dealing with pugs and maybe specifically pugs via GF.

That is a short sighted view since it sells short those who bother to actually form a group. Those that take the time to figure out how to deal with the mechanics.

Regardless, this is in the same vein as the players that call for overland to be more challenging and in the end is rather selfish.

BTW, some may have referred to Shadows of the Hist dungeons as mini trials but that does not make them so. They were always just dungeons.

Below is a rough scale of difficulty from easier to more challenging and it works great. There is plenty for everyone and it encourages players to strive to improve yet still offers everything for those that just want to chill out while playing.

Overworld
delves
normal dungeons
world bosses
vet dungeons
normal trials
vet DLC dungeons
vet trials
vet HM trials

In the end the game does support casual players very well in the normal modes. If they want to start clearing the vet and especially the vet HM they will need to step up their game.

Dagoth_Rac

Every game in existence has older content get easier as new content is released ... except ESO. Should the new Dragon Bones dungeons be nerfed? Heck no. That is the latest and greatest content that should be very difficult and only for the best players. But when that came out, Horns of the Reach should have gotten a small nerf. And Shadows of the Hist should have gotten a bit of a nerf. And so on. Top tier players have already run that content a thousand times and gotten all they need out of it. Slightly nerfing older content every year or so opens older content up to more of the player base.

I think the original idea was that as we gain more CP, older content would naturally become easier. But since ZOS always nerf of us with every patch, the CP cap increase just leaves us running in place. There is little to no increase in player strength as time passes. That makes sense for PvP where you do not want long time players to be unkillable mini-gods that make new players rage quit. But it is bad design for PvE. You have lots of content that is faceroll easy for 90% of players. And lots of content that is brutally difficult and just about impossible for 90% of players. And nothing in between. And nothing ever changes.

Since player power creep presents a big problem in PvP (and even in balancing new PvE content), gradual, incremental nerfs to older content makes the most sense.

LadyNalcarya

I think normal modes are inclusive enough, especially now that you can upgrade jewelry. Quests are the same in both vet and normal, which means that you're not missing a skill point by skipping veteran mode. Monster sets have 100% drop chance on non-harmode, and you only need to do it once (you can transmute them after all).
In my opinion, dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator is not the way to make the game appealing for every player. Simply because assuming that every average player is bad is kinda insulting and its not even close to the truth. I personally think it would be nice to have a "medium" difficulty level for dungeons and trials to make the learning curve a bit more balanced (and inclusive).

And yeah, random groups are always less effective than premades. This is true for any game and pretty much any situation. I don't think that the game should be balanced around group finder.

P.S. "Fun" is a subjective thing, different people enjoy different things and it's normal.

LadyNalcarya

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Every game in existence has older content get easier as new content is released ... except ESO.

Not really... Do you remember the times when Sanctum Ophidia used to be difficult? Or WGT/ICP? Or vMA?

Drdeath20

Please make options to have hardmode dungeons, with hardmode bosses. Once you reach a certain point and have a regular group ,you run dungeons with, everything becomes too easy.

Sorry your CP 150 damage dealer couldnt pug vet dlc dungeons. At that point level up, find a group of people you enjoy playing with, learn rotations/dungeon mechanics/ and farm gear.

After that everything will be too easy for you too and you also will get mad at people calling for nerfs to content.

Turelus

I would just be happy with losing the "you didn't do X within one second, now you take 80k damage"

I hate one shot mechanics and rage timers.

maxetro

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Not really... Do you remember the times when Sanctum Ophidia used to be difficult? Or WGT/ICP? Or vMA?

It is difficult. Get down from your High Hrotghar of elitism to us, mere mortals. Ofcos it's easy for you, if you doing it with premade group with top-tier builds and BiS gear, you know all mechanics and your rotations is in muscle memory already. But I doubt that there are even 10% of people like you in the game.

All vet daily dungeons should be achievable for pug groups, because it's daily, you know? And all this one-shoot mechanics and enrage timers should go away, because this is just poor design in the first place.

Danksta

maxetro wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Not really... Do you remember the times when Sanctum Ophidia used to be difficult? Or WGT/ICP? Or vMA?

It is difficult. Get down from your High Hrotghar of elitism to us, mere mortals. Ofcos it's easy for you, if you doing it with premade group with top-tier builds and BiS gear, you know all mechanics and your rotations is in muscle memory already. But I doubt that there are even 10% of people like you in the game.

All vet daily dungeons should be achievable for pug groups, because it's daily, you know? And all this one-shoot mechanics and enrage timers should go away, because this is just poor design in the first place.

So now you're an elitist if you're a good player that likes playing with friends and want a challenge? Maybe it's you that needs to get off your high horse and realize that not every piece of content needs to be design with you in mind. If you can't complete the DLC pledge there's always two others that are easily able to be cleared by PUGs.

maxetro

You want challenges - you doing vet hm trials. But because of this ridiculous new dlc dungeons, I can't do random vet dailys. And now I have like 7/10 dlc dungeons from Dragon Bones and Horns dlc in random que. And I forced to leave, ruining my time and time of other people, who were trapped there with me.

Is this ok? No, it isn't.

LadyNalcarya

@maxetro wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Not really... Do you remember the times when Sanctum Ophidia used to be difficult? Or WGT/ICP? Or vMA?

It is difficult. Get down from your High Hrotghar of elitism to us, mere mortals. Ofcos it's easy for you, if you doing it with premade group with top-tier builds and BiS gear, you know all mechanics and your rotations is in muscle memory already. But I doubt that there are even 10% of people like you in the game.

All vet daily dungeons should be achievable for pug groups, because it's daily, you know? And all this one-shoot mechanics and enrage timers should go away, because this is just poor design in the first place.

Please stop fighting that strawman of yours and at least read the previous post. -_- Also, putting labels on people is not a good thing, you know and no it doesnt give you moral high grounds or whatever...
Ok, back to the point.
Difficulty is relative, and compared to new veteran content those actually became easier. Of course, it will be hard for the first time, but its veteran content, its supposed to be challenging. However, you cant deny the fact that vSO has become much more accessible since its release. It took a while for a top guilds to beat the hard mode back in the days and today there's a lot of guilds that can reliably clear it (not just the boogeyman "elitist" ones btw). Same with other older vet dungeons and trials.
Veteran White Gold Tower, for example, used to be quite a challenge at the release. It was one of 2 hardest dlc dungeons and now its considered to be the easiest vet dlc dungeon along with ICP. Yes, they might be not so easy for newbies, but they certainly are the easiest of the bunch.
So, I only wanted to say that content does become easier as they add new stuff. Beating vMA now with capped cps is easier than it was before simply because we have more cps, more powerful sets, all the best strategies etc.

P.S. I'm in no way advocating for cheesy mechanics (such as oneshots) btw. I personally think its a bad design choice in many situations and I'm all for more varied and engaging mechanics.

maxetro

I don't know, I never been in any vet trial. So I have no idea how hard or easy it is. But vWGT and vICP were much easier then new dungeons, I did vWGT week or two after release with pugs. With v14-v15 gear. And then few times again. Ofcos, there were wipes and fails, but it was possible/

Now I can't do any of this 4 new dungeons. All mechanics is just ridiculously foolish. With *** load of aoe's, one-shoot abilities and rage timers. I can do up to 25r dmg on a dummy, and maybe up to 30k in raids. But here? 12-15k max, or just die again and again.

Drdeath20

Danksta wrote: »

maxetro wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Not really... Do you remember the times when Sanctum Ophidia used to be difficult? Or WGT/ICP? Or vMA?

It is difficult. Get down from your High Hrotghar of elitism to us, mere mortals. Ofcos it's easy for you, if you doing it with premade group with top-tier builds and BiS gear, you know all mechanics and your rotations is in muscle memory already. But I doubt that there are even 10% of people like you in the game.

All vet daily dungeons should be achievable for pug groups, because it's daily, you know? And all this one-shoot mechanics and enrage timers should go away, because this is just poor design in the first place.

So now you're an elitist if you're a good player that likes playing with friends and want a challenge? Maybe it's you that needs to get off your high horse and realize that not every piece of content needs to be design with you in mind. If you can't complete the DLC pledge there's always two others that are easily able to be cleared by PUGs.

Or they could simply do them on normal until the grow as a player. Great players put in a ton of time becoming great.

LadyNalcarya

maxetro wrote: »

I don't know, I never been in any vet trial. So I have no idea how hard or easy it is. But vWGT and vICP were much easier then new dungeons, I did vWGT week or two after release with pugs. With v14-v15 gear. And then few times again. Ofcos, there were wipes and fails, but it was possible/

Now I can't do any of this 4 new dungeons. All mechanics is just ridiculously foolish. With *** load of aoe's, one-shoot abilities and rage timers. I can do up to 25r dmg on a dummy, and maybe up to 30k in raids. But here? 12-15k max, or just die again and again.

I mean, I agree that oneshots in those dungeons are kinda cheap. I've seen people being killed by aoe when they were visibly outside of it for example. But they are still doable with new groups as long as at least one person knows the mechanics and can explain them.
But I'm pretty sure they too will become easier when they release new dlcs, because there's a constant power creep. Even if they will not nerf the oneshots, they will probably boost the dps so we'll have to deal with less mechanics.

kylewwefan

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Simply because assuming that every average player is bad is kinda insulting and its not even close to the truth. I personally think it would be nice to have a "medium" difficulty level for dungeons and trials to make the learning curve a bit more balanced (and inclusive).

And yeah, random groups are always less effective than premades. This is true for any game and pretty much any situation. I don't think that the game should be balanced around group finder.

P.S. "Fun" is a subjective thing, different people enjoy different things and it's normal.

It feels like you want to agree, but just not with me.

Gladium

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

I mean, I agree that oneshots in those dungeons are kinda cheap. I've seen people being killed by aoe when they were visibly outside of it for example. But they are still doable with new groups as long as at least one person knows the mechanics and can explain them.
But I'm pretty sure they too will become easier when they release new dlcs, because there's a constant power creep. Even if they will not nerf the oneshots, they will probably boost the dps so we'll have to deal with less mechanics.

I think you make a good point here - if someone in the group has experience, it makes the dungeon achievable. It can be fairly straightforward if everyone is good at their role, or a bit painful if they are mediocre.

Clearing content just after release is perhaps not something OP can rely on, but OP may be able to squeeze into a group of experienced people. I ran Fang Lair HM in a 3 DD 1 Tank group a day or two ago where one person had never been in Fang Lair at all, and we cleared the HM on the 2nd or 3rd pull. Admittedly the guy new to this dungeon was dead for half the fight, but that is to be expected for this HM - the odds of someone beating this HM for the first time without dying are virtually nil. Maybe OP needs to be carried, which is fine sometimes.

LadyNalcarya

kylewwefan wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Simply because assuming that every average player is bad is kinda insulting and its not even close to the truth. I personally think it would be nice to have a "medium" difficulty level for dungeons and trials to make the learning curve a bit more balanced (and inclusive).

And yeah, random groups are always less effective than premades. This is true for any game and pretty much any situation. I don't think that the game should be balanced around group finder.

P.S. "Fun" is a subjective thing, different people enjoy different things and it's normal.

It feels like you want to agree, but just not with me.

I mostly disagree with your argument about pugs.
Any remotely challenging content will be difficult with pugs, because some of the people you see in group finder will inevitably ignore the tactics and/or will be too arrogant to listen.
Difficult content requires some sort of group communication and half-decent builds, and that's not 100% guaranteed with pugs. So if you want to balance something around pugs, it would mean nerfing content so even the most clueless light attacker can clear it. Just removing oneshots wont help.

rexagamemnon

If we are paying for the dungeon DLC’s, then the ability to get monster mask should not be as difficult. I dont like having to pay for dungeons and find it impossible to get dungeon masks especially since i am mostly a solo player and am no very active socially in the pve side. Make it to where monster mask can be achieved at norm level but make the blue quality instead of purple like all the other gear is what i say.

montjie

rexagamemnon wrote: »

If we are paying for the dungeon DLC’s, then the ability to get monster mask should not be as difficult. I dont like having to pay for dungeons and find it impossible to get dungeon masks especially since i am mostly a solo player and am no very active socially in the pve side. Make it to where monster mask can be achieved at norm level but make the blue quality instead of purple like all the other gear is what i say.

Then get better at playing the game...Holy hell, talk about being entitled much...

Danksta

rexagamemnon wrote: »

If we are paying for the dungeon DLC’s, then the ability to get monster mask should not be as difficult. I dont like having to pay for dungeons and find it impossible to get dungeon masks especially since i am mostly a solo player and am no very active socially in the pve side. Make it to where monster mask can be achieved at norm level but make the blue quality instead of purple like all the other gear is what i say.

Buy your masks from the golden vendor.

Soella

I love that we have a few hard dungeons. But I think that we need better support for this from random finder. Something like:

- separate Random queues DLC/not DLC dungeons;
- prevent someone choose/get from random veteran options before normal difficulty was done;
- (probably) prevent from playing DLC dungeons before all/half? non-dlc dungeons are finished.

A small instance where player goes through set of tasks (dodge some damage, do AoE damage, interrupt, kill fast enough) before player can queue for random also would be very helpful.

Carcharodontosaurus

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Yeah my CP 97 completed vet fungal grotto i will now que up for vet ruin of mazzatun

Literally me. I finished vet spindleclutch and next dungeon was cradle of shadows. Thankfully, our group included a guy whose favorite dungeon was cradle of shadows and he said he did it like ten times a day. We were all carried that day. But yeah, second vet dungeon cleared was cradle of shadows

MerlinPendragon

Normal and Veteran difficulties both need major boosts. These should be a real challenge, not a push over.