#RemoveArgonians

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Argonians are not that OP. If it was, it was the Infused jewelry trait. Argonians were largely irrelevant race before. Even though the way they got their buffs were not what people really expected but it did make them more useful than before. And Argonians are not considered PvE DPS race. Not even close. Dunmer and Altmer are the go to DPS race with Argonians sometimes competing against Altmers and Breton for healing role. Tanking in PvE can be done with just about any race. Min/Max and self sustaining would put Argonians as tanks and heals on the top but that is exactly what ZOS seemed to have intended. Argonians as DPS race is not amazing. Khajiits for sure can use some buff in form of small max stamina boost or magicka rec boost even in place of health recovery because Khajiits are in no way indicated as a tanky race. Imperials are also too useless now where as it was overperforming with its Red Diamond passive before. Race balance should be left alone imho because I do jot want to see Argonians or Redguards fall out of use because ZOS never does anything in moderacy.

Argonians are very OP as Tanks in PvE, it's a night and day difference if you Race change from Nord/Imperial to Argonian. Argonian just makes it so much easier to sustain both Stamina and Magicka and the extra 10% healing is noticeable.

And in PvP even for an all out damage focused build Argonian has become the best for classes like StamDK, MagDK, MagNB, non gank StamNB, Magplar, and MagDen because of how you don't have to run a sustain focused set like you would on other Races and the 9% health and 10% extra healing makes you so much tankier. Then you add in the new Infused Jewelry with Potion cooldown glyphs which synergies perfectly.

Don't touch my khajiit health recovery. It's great for PvP. But a little stamina recovery would be nice.

I'm going to tell you right now that they're not going to address racial passives this patch. Don't get your hopes up or waste your energy.

Dont nerf anything ffs, show other races some love.

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Obviously. But I don't think this is ever what people have been asserting - and I haven't a clue why people immediately assume that it's a case of people thinking class/race are much more important than skill. It seems willfully misunderstanding by now, but anyway.

It's not that. It's that race is TOO significant. It isn't a question of how significant it is for your effectiveness compared to your class or skill level...it's just that it has far too much influence for something attached to pure cosmetics. People would throw a fit if, say, having this or that cosmetic on your character (motif type, a tattoo, facial expression etc) had any sort of influence on your PvE/PvP performance, yet somehow race having such a huge impact is okay.

Not that I - or, insofar as I've been able to gather, anyone else - think race should have zero impact...This is TES and for obvious reasons I don't think that'd adhere to the spirit of the game.

My beef with racials is more that you're pretty screwed if you want to run a 'stamina' race but play a magicka build, or vice versa and so on. My Bosmer magden gets absolutely pitiful bonuses from her racials compared to if she were a stamina build - which is why I think racials should all be turned into a flat bonus instead of percentage based so a wider variety of builds can benefit from the passives.

For example - my Bosmer madgen gets, as a result of having 21% increased stam regen, an extra...~100 stam regen and 700 extra stamina. Meanwhile, my Bosmer stamblade gets almost 300 regen and just a little over 2k stam (numbers based on uesp build editor).

It's gets worse if I compared the gains if I switched a Bosmer magicka build to Altmer - last I checked, it was the equivalent of being able to enchant your armor all over again + gaining a regen glyph for your jewelry, not counting the damage bonus.

I don't want my Bosmer to suddenly get more max mag, regen, etc. But I at least don't want her screwed out of a big chunk of stats just because ZOS has an affinity for percentage bonuses instead of a flat number.

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

This. What tank has to use potions in 90% of the content anyway? The only time I do is occasionally in the harder dlc dungeons. I don't tank trials but I assume you need to there too. I don't even make use of the "OP" passive argonians have because if you are a good tank you should be able to sustain without it.

I doubt race balancing is even on their charts right now. It's honestly not that big of a deal, most deficits in racial passives can be made up elsewhere. Overall I think passives are fine, and since many of them are supposedly based on 'lore', I doubt ZOS will revisit them for quite some time, if ever.

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Correct you don't need to be an Argonian to tank, the problem is you are not a DK. If you pick a class to tank with that has particularly poor/tank unfriendly sustain (templar/NB respectively) then you are looking to choose between Argonian or dropping sets like ebon. This is too big a gap to be considered balanced, especially when you compare Argonian to races with zero sustain (Nord/Imperial). Yes, it's probably more of a class issue than race, but a race change should not be the answer to anything. I'm not saying this is the case for everyone, there are people that can tank on templar without sustain sets effectively, but these people are highly skill players with maxed cp/gear - certainly not 'everyone'


In a world of diminishing returns, the classes would be fine, i.e. towards end game racial choice made minimal difference. Unfortuntely a lot of races act the opposite way. It would be much better if all races had a +x rather than +x% bonus. That would help out the lower cp/geared players more than the min maxers, which is kinda where these games need to go. Reducing that gap.

Since Morrowind sustain became much more important, so races that had sustain became more powerful. Races should be reviewed literally every time there is a big game changing patch. If it were me, i'd remove every racial passive/skill and just give +x base points into certain skills in the CP tree's depending on which race you had.

I'd like to see nords buffed.

Also Khajiit's to have a bit of sustain, e.g. on critical strikes restore x stamina. x cooldown.

#BuffNords

Benemime wrote: »

Remove the current racial passives entirely. The only racial passive we should have is the inherent racial passive, like the 1% AP bonus gain from breton, 1% gold bonus gain from imperials, and so on, because passives creates an imbalance, a go-to race, lack of freedom. Statiscally, high elves outnumbers every other race. I'm imperial sorc, my passives tells me that I had a heavy training as a warrior. Well, I haven't. I'm a mage, I didn't train to be a warrior.

Instead of the current passives, we should have a tab called "Specialization", between skill and champion tree tab, where we set our specialization and chose what we would like to raise: max magicka or max stamina for base energy resource (pick one), pick one defensive passive (max hp, spell/physical resistance, crit resist?, healing received, and so on), 1 recovery passive (like, magicka recovery, health recovery, decreased cost of stamina or magicka ability passive, and so on), offensive passive (spell/physical dmg, spell/physical crit, spell/phys. penetration, healing done), always picking one from each.

This covers everything, free us from bouding to races that we don't like, and actually would release us to be 100% better.

(i saw another fix for racial passives that was based on chosing the star that we were born under, but that would cause a lot of harm on character creation menu to new players in my opinion.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I got 10 agrees on my idea you should at least consider taking a look on racial passives by now