What is "Divine Energy" ? [Summerset spoilers]

adriant1978 · June 2018

Towards the end of the Summerset MQ we learn that we need a source of Divine Energy to repair the Transparent Law crystal, and Dawnbreaker ends up being the source.

Thing is though, isn't Meridia a Daedric Prince? Wouldn't that be Daedric Energy then? Or perhaps "divine" is meant in a more generic sense rather than relating to "the Divines". Maybe they are all just et'Ada and the nature of their energy shouldn't be differentiated.

Prior games have placed some emphasis on the difference between Divine and Daedric though. For example in Oblivion's MQ we are required to obtain both "Blood of the Divines" and "Blood of the Daedra" for Martin's portal ritual, and I couldn't help thinking about this when it turned out we were getting Divine Energy from Dawnbreaker, which I always thought of as a Deadric artifact.

Ghanima_Atreides · June 2018

adriant1978 wrote: »

Thing is though, isn't Meridia a Daedric Prince? Wouldn't that be Daedric Energy then? Or perhaps "divine" is meant in a more generic sense rather than relating to "the Divines". Maybe they are all just et'Ada and the nature of their energy shouldn't be differentiated.

Probably, yes. After all, the only difference between Daedra and the Divines, is the fact that one group (the Divines) participated in the creation of Mundus, thus giving up most of their power, while the others (the Daedra) didn't. Daedra literally means "Not Our Ancestors". They are the same spirits, originally.

Moreover, "divine energy" in this context was not capitalised as far as I remember, suggesting it isn't a reference to the entities known as The Eight Divines, but rather the god-like energy of a being from before the dawn of time, powerful enough to reforge a mystical reality-shaping relic.

VaranisArano · June 2018

Dawnbreaker counts as both a Daedric and divine artifact because this plot twist relies on a fact that makes the lore fans squee and everyone else scratch their heads: Meridia used to be an Aedra, Merid-Nunda, who fled when the trick of creation became apparent and so became a Magna-Ge and eventually consorted with daedra and became a Daedric prince: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Meridia has the lore book links for it.

In playing through the questline, I'd forgotten about that and so I was a little frustrated about the need for a divine artifact coming out of nowhere in the 3rd act. Like, if my character had known ahead of time, I presumably could have gotten my hands on some other artifact instead while I was out bargaining with Daedric princes and doing side quests...its not like Nocturnal's in any hurry to claim Crystal Tower before I'm ready to go fight her.

Ghanima_Atreides · June 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dawnbreaker counts as both a Daedric and divine artifact because this plot twist relies on a fact that makes the lore fans squee and everyone else scratch their heads: Meridia used to be an Aedra, Merid-Nunda, who fled when the trick of creation became apparent and so became a Magna-Ge and eventually consorted with daedra and became a Daedric prince: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Meridia has the lore book links for it.

I know that, but since she fled from the creation of Mundus she cannot rightly be considered an Aedra (just like Magnus isn't) and since she has taken the mantle of a Daedric Prince that is her proper designation. While ZOS seems to like portraying her as some kind of "light side" Daedra or the missing link between Aedra and Daedra, let's not forget that in the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine she was an antagonist, the patron of Umaril the Unfeathered.

VaranisArano · June 2018

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dawnbreaker counts as both a Daedric and divine artifact because this plot twist relies on a fact that makes the lore fans squee and everyone else scratch their heads: Meridia used to be an Aedra, Merid-Nunda, who fled when the trick of creation became apparent and so became a Magna-Ge and eventually consorted with daedra and became a Daedric prince: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Meridia has the lore book links for it.

I know that, but since she fled from the creation of Mundus she cannot rightly be considered an Aedra (just like Magnus isn't) and since she has taken the mantle of a Daedric Prince that is her proper designation. While ZOS seems to like portraying her as some kind of "light side" Daedra or the missing link between Aedra and Daedra, let's not forget that in the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine she was an antagonist, the patron of Umaril the Unfeathered.

Oh, I'm aware. Knights of the Nine is still my favorite TES DLC ever. Meridia is "good" only in the sense that the undead/other Daedric princes are usually worse.

Still, that's why this Dawnbreaker is divine handwave happened in the story (even though I'd much rather that the need for a divine artifact was mentioned before the final quest, so I could try to go get one while I was running around bargaining with thwarted daedric princes. Even if that artifact failed, it would have been nice to have a chance as opposed to stumbling through the tower hoping to get lucky.)

DarcyMardin · June 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

<snip> Still, that's why this Dawnbreaker is divine handwave happened in the story (even though I'd much rather that the need for a divine artifact was mentioned before the final quest, so I could try to go get one while I was running around bargaining with thwarted daedric princes. Even if that artifact failed, it would have been nice to have a chance as opposed to stumbling through the tower hoping to get lucky.)

I agree. Although I really liked the main Summerset quest, that was a big plot hole for me. The Vestige has to do various things and acquire the help of various others to enter the tower and reach the top, but when it’s mentioned that he/she also needs a divine artifact, it’s just waved off as if, “no worries, I’m sure one will conveniently appear.”

I get what they were trying to do with Darien, and indeed there is some foreshadowing in the original story (which is cool) but the ending, poignant though it was for those of us who are Darien fans, could have been handled a bit more smoothly.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · June 2018

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I agree. Although I really liked the main Summerset quest, that was a big plot hole for me. The Vestige has to do various things and acquire the help of various others to enter the tower and reach the top, but when it’s mentioned that he/she also needs a divine artifact, it’s just waved off as if, “no worries, I’m sure one will conveniently appear.”

When I first encountered her, I figured the lady in the room with the Ballista would point us in the right direction. $:\$ I mean, she's conveniently holding on to an item with enough divine energy to protect her until we get there, and there aren't any more in the room? She just happened to be within arm's length of the only one when the tower was attacked?

"Hey player character! There's a bunch of Aedric artifacts on level 6! Make sure to grab one on your way up, okay?"

And then just make sure the Daedra and cultists had ransacked level 6 when you get there. *sigh*

Konstant_Tel_Necris · June 2018

Merid-Nunda have strong connection with Magnus, she is not like other daedra.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Exegesis_of_Merid-Nunda

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2018

What is Divine Energy? A plot device, and a pretty transparent one at that.

Divine Energy is energy that fulfils the role of the god in a Deus Ex Machina ending.

We get to the top of the Crystal Tower, the story is near its conclusion, the big showdown with the chief villain is the only way forward, but we have reached an impasse. Dawnbreaker is broken

Failure and catastrophe seem certain. Ans then - flash, bang, wallop Divine Energy!. God appears out of the scenery and fixes it all for us. Sudden reversal of fortune. Eucatasrophe. The Hero advances to victory. The world is saved. Hurrah!

Ultimately, the creators of this game are story tellers. They follow the dictates of narrative imperative. When the need arises the story teller just has to make things up as they go along. I think Divine Energy is just one of those things.

I think it is very easy for us thoughtful players to overthink these things. I don't think Divine Energy is part of some coherent world design. In fact I don't think TES's story tellers actually have a fully coherent world design.

adriant1978 · July 2018

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I think it is very easy for us thoughtful players to overthink these things. I don't think Divine Energy is part of some coherent world design. In fact I don't think TES's story tellers actually have a fully coherent world design.

You are probably right, but what kind of lore nerds would we be if we didn't try to imagine that TES was working to a coherent design?

Ajaxandriel · July 2018

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

What is Divine Energy? A plot device, and a pretty transparent one at that.

Divine Energy is energy that fulfils the role of the god in a Deus Ex Machina ending.

We get to the top of the Crystal Tower, the story is near its conclusion, the big showdown with the chief villain is the only way forward, but we have reached an impasse. Dawnbreaker is broken Failure and catastrophe seem certain. Ans then - flash, bang, wallop Divine Energy!. God appears out of the scenery and fixes it all for us. Sudden reversal of fortune. Eucatasrophe. The Hero advances to victory. The world is saved. Hurrah!

Ultimately, the creators of this game are story tellers. They follow the dictates of narrative imperative. When the need arises the story teller just has to make things up as they go along. I think Divine Energy is just one of those things.

It's rightly what you explain here
"Divine Ex Machina"

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I think it is very easy for us thoughtful players to overthink these things. I don't think Divine Energy is part of some coherent world design. In fact I don't think TES's story tellers actually have a fully coherent world design.

...but there is one point of the Elder Scrolls world design coherence, precisely! The elder Scrolls can be seen as "a story knowing it's a story" where the divinity has to do with metaphors and "tangible" allegories. And divinity in this setting is not limited to the Divines (even less to the 8 cyrodiil Divines), Vivec and Sotha Sil do display their own divinity too, so does a Daedra Prince like Meridia as far as it/she bears Light, like VaranisArano said, after having been an Aedra of some sort

MLGProPlayer · July 2018

I assumed that "divine" in this case referred to the energy of a god (any god), and not just energy from the 8 Divines. The Daedra are very much gods (they're just gods of destruction instead of creation). I don't think TES lore discriminates with respect to the type of energy possessed by the different deities. They are all equally divine, whether Aedra, Daedra, Tirbunal, or anything else.

adriant1978 · July 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I assumed that "divine" in this case referred to the energy of a god (any god), and not just energy from the 8 Divines. The Daedra are very much gods (they're just gods of destruction instead of creation). I don't think TES lore discriminates with respect to the type of energy possessed by the different deities. They are all equally divine, whether Aedra, Daedra, Tribunal, or anything else.

Given how much of a major plot point the divine energy of the Tribunal was in Morrowind, I was fully expecting Sotha Sil to offer us some.

VaranisArano · July 2018

adriant1978 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I assumed that "divine" in this case referred to the energy of a god (any god), and not just energy from the 8 Divines. The Daedra are very much gods (they're just gods of destruction instead of creation). I don't think TES lore discriminates with respect to the type of energy possessed by the different deities. They are all equally divine, whether Aedra, Daedra, Tribunal, or anything else.

Given how much of a major plot point the divine energy of the Tribunal was in Morrowind, I was fully expecting Sotha Sil to offer us some.

I assumed its a plot point that he doesn't, particularly since the Tribunal's "divine energy" is actually siphoned/stolen from the Heart of Lorkhan using the Tools of Kagrenac as per TES III: Morrowind.

Technically, Sotha Sil probably could have made it work, since he can still go get more energy from the Heart, Dagoth Ur not having cut the Tribunal off from Red Mountain yet. But it probably wouldn't have been wise to do so right in front of Mephala, who knows exactly where the Tribunal is getting their "divine" powers, as Mephala might have chosen to refuse to help if Sotha Sil was going to falsely claim to be divine in his own right. Nor would Sotha Sil particularly wish to reveal the charade in front of the Vestige or the Psijic Order in order to be honest about the source of his divine source of magic.

Bruccius · July 2018

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dawnbreaker counts as both a Daedric and divine artifact because this plot twist relies on a fact that makes the lore fans squee and everyone else scratch their heads: Meridia used to be an Aedra, Merid-Nunda, who fled when the trick of creation became apparent and so became a Magna-Ge and eventually consorted with daedra and became a Daedric prince: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Meridia has the lore book links for it.

I know that, but since she fled from the creation of Mundus she cannot rightly be considered an Aedra (just like Magnus isn't) and since she has taken the mantle of a Daedric Prince that is her proper designation. While ZOS seems to like portraying her as some kind of "light side" Daedra or the missing link between Aedra and Daedra, let's not forget that in the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine she was an antagonist, the patron of Umaril the Unfeathered.

Talos is also a Divine, Talos isn't an Aedra. In Meridia's case, if Dawnbreaker was created prior to her become a Daedric Prince (doubtful, but possible) it could still be classified as a Divine artifact? I guess?