Getting wrecked by catapults in the new summerset chapter and I'm a tank!

Joy_Division · July 2018

Minno wrote: »

::plays game marketed as a huge warfare simulator, but expects small group sport-like competition where siege hits like a pool noodle::

I wouldn't say that.

I expect in a huge warfare simulator that there might be some sort of advantage to the defenders in a Castle layout. Anyone who is even halfway objective and has tried to defend the Inner Emp keeps would have realized the absurdity in how in this patch, the current layout of the "defensive bastions" that castle are supposed to represent now favors the attackers, particularly when said attackers faction stack.

Since you play BGs and have left cyrodiil I can see why you might be so casual in dismissing the concerns over siege damage. But you're a smart person, think about the small area on the top floor of the 6 inner keeps like Chalman, Ash, Alessia, etc. Now think about how few counter-siege can be placed there, how destructive overlapping persistent heal-debuff, damage dots, and damage amp zones in such a small zone might be - especially where there is no "moving out of stupid" because doing so means either falling from two floors or completely abandoning a defense and running down the stairs.

Now think of how wide expanse of space the attackers have to use *your* defensive structures to set up *their* siege weapons - and a lot more of them - and spread them out such their players can easily avoid concentrated counter-fire and move out it easy should they be a target.

This scenario has made it a lot more difficult for out-numbered defenders of the 6 inner keeps to hold out a zerg force because the very "area-denial" that siege is so good at this patch absolutely murders the defenders on the top floor because there is such little area up there. The irony! Once the attackers breech the outer, if they are smart, any player who tries to defend the inner rampart is going to get melted.

As it turns out, those little outposts are much easier to defend (well, except Bleakers because by fluke of geography, the attackers can put seige up on the mountain and destroy the defenders on the top floor). And the Tri-keeps aren't so bad because those engineers were smart enough to put a roof over the heads of the defenders

Mureel · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

I'm dying too fast to catapults near enemy keeps, even if there's a healer near me and I'm a tank. Now if the enemy players jump down from the walls that problem gets even worst. You have to fight other players near a keep they can respawn plus catapults which leave an area of effect for long with huge damage. If you are a small group you have no chance to siege a keep and your group will be wiped in 10 seconds if enemy players jump down from the wall and they have catapults support. I understand if you take a keep there are benefits to it but right now it's just impossible to siege a keep with a small group.

Sorry but nope. Huge telegraph, and they're meant to breach walls and doors. Sorry not sorry that you cannot survive a launched boulder.

Get out of the way or get more people.

Why does everything need to be a faceroll?

OP is talking about catapults not trebs. You aren't intended to siege walls or doors with cats. They are made for debuffing and area denial but that doesn't mean they aren't a little over tuned and causing more players to stack up.

Sorry my bad on which siege in OP, and yet the point remains.

Big ass telegraph- I'm a squishy and I do not die to siege because I can move away. No one should be tanking siege anyway.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

Mureel wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

I'm dying too fast to catapults near enemy keeps, even if there's a healer near me and I'm a tank. Now if the enemy players jump down from the walls that problem gets even worst. You have to fight other players near a keep they can respawn plus catapults which leave an area of effect for long with huge damage. If you are a small group you have no chance to siege a keep and your group will be wiped in 10 seconds if enemy players jump down from the wall and they have catapults support. I understand if you take a keep there are benefits to it but right now it's just impossible to siege a keep with a small group.

Sorry but nope. Huge telegraph, and they're meant to breach walls and doors. Sorry not sorry that you cannot survive a launched boulder.

Get out of the way or get more people.

Why does everything need to be a faceroll?

OP is talking about catapults not trebs. You aren't intended to siege walls or doors with cats. They are made for debuffing and area denial but that doesn't mean they aren't a little over tuned and causing more players to stack up.

Sorry my bad on which siege in OP, and yet the point remains.

Big ass telegraph- I'm a squishy and I do not die to siege because I can move away. No one should be tanking siege anyway.

The issue is that players would move out of this ordinarily but the gameplay mechanics necessitate being in the area of a flag to flip it. I think this is the main issue. When mechanics require something so that the optimal defense and offense methods force a certain style of gameplay. For example. Massive amounts of siege on both defense and offense. The fight comes down to whoever has the more effective numbers.

Now groups can counteract this to some degree if they know how to deal with the challenge but the majority can't because of the investment in gameplay it requires.

This change to cats is causing fights at keeps to get larger and larger and cause issues for the server. The aim of the change was to impact group play which it does but as usual it harms ungroupped players far more.

Sky_WK · July 2018

First of all, there are no tanks in pvp.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

Inb4 "adapt" people are the left click heroes that don't want their crutch gone.

zyk · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The issue is that players would move out of this ordinarily but the gameplay mechanics necessitate being in the area of a flag to flip it. I think this is the main issue. When mechanics require something so that the optimal defense and offense methods force a certain style of gameplay. For example. Massive amounts of siege on both defense and offense. The fight comes down to whoever has the more effective numbers.

There's some irony here because I've read that *exact* argument against destro/proxy/vd groups several times over the years.

dotme · July 2018

Squishy stamblade here, and I have yet to die to a catapult. I PvP for 4+ hours a day. They're nice and strong - If I stand on my siege, I'd probably get melted. So I don't. That strategy seems to be working for me.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

zyk wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The issue is that players would move out of this ordinarily but the gameplay mechanics necessitate being in the area of a flag to flip it. I think this is the main issue. When mechanics require something so that the optimal defense and offense methods force a certain style of gameplay. For example. Massive amounts of siege on both defense and offense. The fight comes down to whoever has the more effective numbers.

There's some irony here because I've read that *exact* argument against destro/proxy/vd groups several times over the years.

You'll have to refresh my memory on the arguments. Fighting players to me is more interesting than fighting a left click bot though.

It's even funnier to see guilds placing siege in open field gvg style fights too.

zyk · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The issue is that players would move out of this ordinarily but the gameplay mechanics necessitate being in the area of a flag to flip it. I think this is the main issue. When mechanics require something so that the optimal defense and offense methods force a certain style of gameplay. For example. Massive amounts of siege on both defense and offense. The fight comes down to whoever has the more effective numbers.

There's some irony here because I've read that *exact* argument against destro/proxy/vd groups several times over the years.

You'll have to refresh my memory on the arguments. Fighting players to me is more interesting than fighting a left click bot though.

It's even funnier to see guilds placing siege in open field gvg style fights too.

It's the same basic idea. I'm sure you anticipate juicy stacks on flags multiple times a night. When players complain about ball groups, the common response is to spread out, but that's not easy while on keep/outpost flags.

You are fighting players on those siege. They are using the tools provided by the game just as you are when you design optimal builds and group comp. The way you are looking down on those players is the same way players who identify as small scalers look down on large groups.

Players who run in large groups say they are the counter to even larger zergs and I think siegers would say they are a counter to both. I think siege is an ideal counter for ball groups because players in large groups are generally less individually autonomous and often have so much focus on following the leader. I think it's good to have a counter to the main weakness of a ball group which is predictability.

There are complaints like this in every game with vehicles and turrets. But to a lot of players, vehicles, turrets, siege, etc are awesome features that should be viable and useful tools.

GvG is a different beast altogether because you can agree to rules beforehand.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

zyk wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The issue is that players would move out of this ordinarily but the gameplay mechanics necessitate being in the area of a flag to flip it. I think this is the main issue. When mechanics require something so that the optimal defense and offense methods force a certain style of gameplay. For example. Massive amounts of siege on both defense and offense. The fight comes down to whoever has the more effective numbers.

There's some irony here because I've read that *exact* argument against destro/proxy/vd groups several times over the years.

You'll have to refresh my memory on the arguments. Fighting players to me is more interesting than fighting a left click bot though.

It's even funnier to see guilds placing siege in open field gvg style fights too.

It's the same basic idea. I'm sure you anticipate juicy stacks on flags multiple times a night. When players complain about ball groups, the common response is to spread out, but that's not easy while on keep/outpost flags.

You are fighting players on those siege. They are using the tools provided by the game just as you are when you design optimal builds and group comp. The way you are looking down on those players is the same way players who identify as small scalers look down on large groups.

Players who run in large groups say they are the counter to even larger zergs and I think siegers would say they are a counter to both. I think siege is an ideal counter for ball groups because players in large groups are generally less individually autonomous and often have so much focus on following the leader. I think it's good to have a counter to the main weakness of a ball group which is predictability.

There are complaints like this in every game with vehicles and turrets. But to a lot of players, vehicles, turrets, siege, etc are awesome features that should be viable and useful tools.

GvG is a different beast altogether because you can agree to rules beforehand.

I don't disagree with you. My point is that the majority of the player base cannot deal with the problem and cannot assist eachother to do so. Hence groups have further advantage. Sure it works the other way too when super outnumbered and I wish that I could actually fight players rather than their siege but I would even like to see a return of ground oils.

When you see a siege keep and its 5 cats hitting from inside out and 5 from outside in it just seems a little boring honestly and just promotes more and more players to stack trying to defend and flip causing more and more lag.

I'd rather that players actually fight back and forward and use skills appropriate to what they are fighting not just place a consumable and sit there pressing left click.