Bow/Bow Viability

NaZuraith · July 2018

I have created this post to try and get an update/discussion on the viability of Bow/Bow on the current game.

So over the past week or so I have been doing a fair amount of research on different bow/bow builds to find something viable. However, most of the stuff I am finding is over a year old. So after checking out some patch notes, I wanted to get some more opinions on if the game changes in the past year have had an affect on bow/bow viability in end game content.

I've seen some builds focusing on DoT's (specifically poison) and that stuff doesn't interest me as much as a physical damage bow build, or a build that focuses on buffing auto attacks (I know some people will probably feel like that's lame but I really enjoy trying to make auto attack builds work from my time in the past playing ADC in League).

The two classes I'm looking at specifically are Stamina Night Blade, Stamina Sorc, and maybe some sort of proc, on hit type build.

I'm fairly new to the game and just trying to figure out a playstyle that I really enjoy, so I'm hoping that some people with more experience might give their two cents.

Thank you for your time!

The_Tarantian · July 2018

I cannot give you the exact builds, but I can assure you that bow/bow is now totally viable. One of my guildies started a vet trials group consisting of bow/bow damage dealers purely, and so far they were doing more than just fine.

Asardes · July 2018

Search @Masel92 's builds on the forum. He has a Stam NB one doing 42K on the 6M. I'm sure it will work on Stam Sorc as well though you'll need to build extra sustain into it since you don't benefit from syphoning strikes.

SilverWF · July 2018

Well, back in the days I've tried this on my Stam NB
Let's be honest - it was MEH. Sadly, bow here is a support weapon, not main.
You would use some skills from it as AOE damage (like Barrage) or engage in the fight (like Snipe), but finish the fight always with the melee.
Bow didn't have selfbuffs, like Rally in 2h. Sure, Sorc can use their selfbuff for crit, but NB need to actually hit any target with Sap Essence in 8m radius and this kinda counter to the Bow's Long Shot passive
Bow didn't have any viable debuffs (over DOTs). NB can use Mark to reduce phys defense. Sorc - dunno
Bow didn't have spammers with execution effect. Poison Injection has it only for DOT part and this is not a big deal, really.
Even if talk just about spammer, Silver Shards from Fighter Guild would be a bit better, especially against undead or daedra.

As a race I would suggest Bosmers or Khaijits

There is several possible sets:
Eagle Eye - jewelry set
Hawk's Eye, Kyne's Kiss and Marksman's Crest - from Cyrodiil or AH (they are fairly cheap for an obv reasons)
Wilderqueen's Arch - from Greenshade or AH (the same pricing as above)
This sets are specially focused about bow

And there is a fair amount sets, focused on physical damage bonuses (like Automaton from DsC1 and 2). All bow skill are physical, btw - poison and disease damage included here

Still you would need Spriggan's Thorns set (from Bangkorai or AH) - due to lack of phys penetration and this set is pretty expensive, especially weapons and jewelry

Also, you would need a bow from Maelstrom Arena: The Maelstrom's Bow, this is BIS weapon for any phys DPS, since it greatly increases damage of Volley. You can't buy it, you would need to complete veteran Maelstrom Arena by yourself (on any character) to has a chance to get it. Just a chance...

Also, you would need to learn Fighter Guild skilline, Alliance (mostly, Assault line) and would be nice to have Undaunted' Bone Shiled too

Dalsinthus · July 2018

Viable for nearly all content, yes. Optimal, no. Fun, yes.

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axkpih8ehw4

I main a bow/bow stamblade in pve and pvp. It is much more difficult than my other builds (mag sorc dps, mag dk dps, stam warden pvp, mag templar healer, health dk tank), but I enjoy it.

For PVE I run 5 twice fang, 5 VO, master bow and maelstrom bow. For PVP I run 5 marksman, 5 hawkeye, perfect asylum bow and master bow. The PVE build can pull 40k dps on a 6 mil target dummy.

Survivability is the most difficult issue in both types of content as going 7 medium and all stam on a woodelf makes you a glass cannon. You don't have access to the typical mitigation strategies for stam like deadly cloak and your damage goes up with range but that pulls you away from a healer.

There's also a lot of negative opinions about bows as a dps weapon in the community, so be prepared for that.

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

Good luck and have fun.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2018

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Viable for nearly all content, yes. Optimal, no. Fun, yes.

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axkpih8ehw4

I main a bow/bow stamblade in pve and pvp. It is much more difficult than my other builds (mag sorc dps, mag dk dps, stam warden pvp, mag templar healer, health dk tank), but I enjoy it.

For PVE I run 5 twice fang, 5 VO, master bow and maelstrom bow. For PVP I run 5 marksman, 5 hawkeye, perfect asylum bow and master bow. The PVE build can pull 40k dps on a 6 mil target dummy.

Survivability is the most difficult issue in both types of content as going 7 medium and all stam on a woodelf makes you a glass cannon. You don't have access to the typical mitigation strategies for stam like deadly cloak and your damage goes up with range but that pulls you away from a healer.

There's also a lot of negative opinions about bows as a dps weapon in the community, so be prepared for that.

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

Good luck and have fun.

Listen to this guy op, you can't go wrong if you follow the link he provides.

casparian · July 2018

Here you go. Up to date for Summerset. 40k+ DPS.

JobooAGS · July 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Viable for nearly all content, yes. Optimal, no. Fun, yes.

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axkpih8ehw4

I main a bow/bow stamblade in pve and pvp. It is much more difficult than my other builds (mag sorc dps, mag dk dps, stam warden pvp, mag templar healer, health dk tank), but I enjoy it.

For PVE I run 5 twice fang, 5 VO, master bow and maelstrom bow. For PVP I run 5 marksman, 5 hawkeye, perfect asylum bow and master bow. The PVE build can pull 40k dps on a 6 mil target dummy.

Survivability is the most difficult issue in both types of content as going 7 medium and all stam on a woodelf makes you a glass cannon. You don't have access to the typical mitigation strategies for stam like deadly cloak and your damage goes up with range but that pulls you away from a healer.

There's also a lot of negative opinions about bows as a dps weapon in the community, so be prepared for that.

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

Good luck and have fun.

Listen to this guy op, you can't go wrong if you follow the link he provides.

If you look at the disclaimer, it states that bow/bow falls behind in both dps and surviabilty to both melee stam dd and ranged mag dd therefore, with the exception of the raid leader saying "*** it, we can clear with a sufficient score even if we take one subpar player" you won't really see them in raids

Thorstienn · July 2018

It is totally viable. I have taken my NB bow/bow through almost all Vet DLC and a few trials.
I find it's biggest weakness is AoE; though I haven't gotten caltrops yet and rarely swap in bombard.
Survivability is fine as you can be quite mobile while dealing damage, I try to stand just slightly in front of the healer for buffs, but some boss fights just sit at max range and unleash, vigor is more than enough in those situations.
I highly recommend psijic order if you have access: great spammable and acceleration.

I run Velidreth, Relequin, Briarheart. Lover Mundus.

Dalsinthus · July 2018

JobooAGS wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Viable for nearly all content, yes. Optimal, no. Fun, yes.

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axkpih8ehw4

I main a bow/bow stamblade in pve and pvp. It is much more difficult than my other builds (mag sorc dps, mag dk dps, stam warden pvp, mag templar healer, health dk tank), but I enjoy it.

For PVE I run 5 twice fang, 5 VO, master bow and maelstrom bow. For PVP I run 5 marksman, 5 hawkeye, perfect asylum bow and master bow. The PVE build can pull 40k dps on a 6 mil target dummy.

Survivability is the most difficult issue in both types of content as going 7 medium and all stam on a woodelf makes you a glass cannon. You don't have access to the typical mitigation strategies for stam like deadly cloak and your damage goes up with range but that pulls you away from a healer.

There's also a lot of negative opinions about bows as a dps weapon in the community, so be prepared for that.

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

Good luck and have fun.

Listen to this guy op, you can't go wrong if you follow the link he provides.

If you look at the disclaimer, it states that bow/bow falls behind in both dps and surviabilty to both melee stam dd and ranged mag dd therefore, with the exception of the raid leader saying "*** it, we can clear with a sufficient score even if we take one subpar player" you won't really see them in raids

Yes, I agree. I tried to make that clear by saying bow/bow is viable but not optimal, is harder than other setups, loses out on survivability that is available to stam melee builds, and is not a setup that many in the community want to see in a group. But that said, 40k dps is plenty for most content and it is fun to play an archer. It's in end game trials that the build is going to be the least desirable.

JobooAGS · July 2018

Dalsinthus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Viable for nearly all content, yes. Optimal, no. Fun, yes.

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axkpih8ehw4

I main a bow/bow stamblade in pve and pvp. It is much more difficult than my other builds (mag sorc dps, mag dk dps, stam warden pvp, mag templar healer, health dk tank), but I enjoy it.

For PVE I run 5 twice fang, 5 VO, master bow and maelstrom bow. For PVP I run 5 marksman, 5 hawkeye, perfect asylum bow and master bow. The PVE build can pull 40k dps on a 6 mil target dummy.

Survivability is the most difficult issue in both types of content as going 7 medium and all stam on a woodelf makes you a glass cannon. You don't have access to the typical mitigation strategies for stam like deadly cloak and your damage goes up with range but that pulls you away from a healer.

There's also a lot of negative opinions about bows as a dps weapon in the community, so be prepared for that.

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

Good luck and have fun.

Listen to this guy op, you can't go wrong if you follow the link he provides.

If you look at the disclaimer, it states that bow/bow falls behind in both dps and surviabilty to both melee stam dd and ranged mag dd therefore, with the exception of the raid leader saying "*** it, we can clear with a sufficient score even if we take one subpar player" you won't really see them in raids

Yes, I agree. I tried to make that clear by saying bow/bow is viable but not optimal, is harder than other setups, loses out on survivability that is available to stam melee builds, and is not a setup that many in the community want to see in a group. But that said, 40k dps is plenty for most content and it is fun to play an archer. It's in end game trials that the build is going to be the least desirable.

I can pull 40k+ self buffed on my bowblade, but for core only runs my raid leader told me go melee or make a mag even though I pull better numbers self buffed than some of our ranged self buffed and in raid I pull my weight in dps, even comparable to the melee stam. Other mmos have bow primary weapons suitable for endgame like other weapon combinations. People see bow being a "support" weapon but there is no statement saying it is one, and it is saddening.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2018

Dalsinthus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Viable for nearly all content, yes. Optimal, no. Fun, yes.

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axkpih8ehw4

I main a bow/bow stamblade in pve and pvp. It is much more difficult than my other builds (mag sorc dps, mag dk dps, stam warden pvp, mag templar healer, health dk tank), but I enjoy it.

For PVE I run 5 twice fang, 5 VO, master bow and maelstrom bow. For PVP I run 5 marksman, 5 hawkeye, perfect asylum bow and master bow. The PVE build can pull 40k dps on a 6 mil target dummy.

Survivability is the most difficult issue in both types of content as going 7 medium and all stam on a woodelf makes you a glass cannon. You don't have access to the typical mitigation strategies for stam like deadly cloak and your damage goes up with range but that pulls you away from a healer.

There's also a lot of negative opinions about bows as a dps weapon in the community, so be prepared for that.

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

Good luck and have fun.

Listen to this guy op, you can't go wrong if you follow the link he provides.

If you look at the disclaimer, it states that bow/bow falls behind in both dps and surviabilty to both melee stam dd and ranged mag dd therefore, with the exception of the raid leader saying "*** it, we can clear with a sufficient score even if we take one subpar player" you won't really see them in raids

Yes, I agree. I tried to make that clear by saying bow/bow is viable but not optimal, is harder than other setups, loses out on survivability that is available to stam melee builds, and is not a setup that many in the community want to see in a group. But that said, 40k dps is plenty for most content and it is fun to play an archer. It's in end game trials that the build is going to be the least desirable.

you see, i dont get this. the op is not going to be doing score runs on vet hm trials anytime soon. not everything is that sort of thing. bows can get 30k dps. easy. that is at least 50% more dps then you need to complete all content in the game. it is also 100% more then at least half the people i come across in the group finder, on vet, which is where 90% of the people that play this will be. if you want to be bow/bow. do it. get good at it and you will be better then most of the people that play this game.

tl:dr optimal is for try hards, viable is fine and better then most people that play this game.

NaZuraith · July 2018

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm really just not into the melee playstyle, so it's good to know that bow/bow is possible, even if it is kinda taboo in the community (bummer).

Dalsinthus wrote: »

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

I have read through most of that forum already. Do you think there is much hope for having a bow build that doesn't just stack DoT's? I'm not opposed to using any of them at all. But I guess I find it much more satisfying to deal a chunk of damage straight out rather than stacking a billion dots on something. Haha.

Dalsinthus wrote: »

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:

Yeah I found that video. I haven't invested too much into pvp, but the playstyle looks hella fun. Even though it seems the community feels like the build is cancer. Ah well.

casparian wrote: »

Here you go. Up to date for Summerset. 40k+ DPS.

Noice! I'm super interested and I'll be checking this out further. Thanks for sharing!

Dalsinthus · July 2018

NaZuraith wrote: »

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm really just not into the melee playstyle, so it's good to know that bow/bow is possible, even if it is kinda taboo in the community (bummer).

Dalsinthus wrote: »

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

I have read through most of that forum already. Do you think there is much hope for having a bow build that doesn't just stack DoT's? I'm not opposed to using any of them at all. But I guess I find it much more satisfying to deal a chunk of damage straight out rather than stacking a billion dots on something. Haha.

Dalsinthus wrote: »

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:

Yeah I found that video. I haven't invested too much into pvp, but the playstyle looks hella fun. Even though it seems the community feels like the build is cancer. Ah well.

casparian wrote: »

Here you go. Up to date for Summerset. 40k+ DPS.

Noice! I'm super interested and I'll be checking this out further. Thanks for sharing!

A few things:

I agree that the minor taboo on bows as a dps weapon is silly. 30-40k dps is good for almost everything.

This is a play style that I like a lot and have made work. The hardest thing for me is survivability. Sustain and damage are great.

If you look at most PVE dps builds, they involve laying down various AOE abilities and DoT abilities, weaving light attacks between every skill, keeping buffs up, and then using a spammable ability until the AOE/DoT/buffs start to run out. The bow kit has some abilities that are used by almost all stamina pve dps builds and there is no reason to avoid them as a primary bow user.

There are proc sets that you could try to add into a build to get your desired outcome, but I have found the setup that I listed in my first post to be the most effective.

Now pvp is a different beast where sustain, healing, and burst damage are key for most builds. You can achieve great burst with bows in pvp using the asylum bow and/or stealth. You may find that style of play to your liking. And you can do both this and the pve approach I described with the same character by simply changing gear and skills.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2018

NaZuraith wrote: »

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm really just not into the melee playstyle, so it's good to know that bow/bow is possible, even if it is kinda taboo in the community (bummer).

Dalsinthus wrote: »

This thread is your best guide for PVE:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Bows have several good dots (injection, barrage, even acid spray) and I think you're going to need them to pull any kind of competitive dps.

I have read through most of that forum already. Do you think there is much hope for having a bow build that doesn't just stack DoT's? I'm not opposed to using any of them at all. But I guess I find it much more satisfying to deal a chunk of damage straight out rather than stacking a billion dots on something. Haha.

Dalsinthus wrote: »

This is the best current build I have found for PVP:

Yeah I found that video. I haven't invested too much into pvp, but the playstyle looks hella fun. Even though it seems the community feels like the build is cancer. Ah well.

casparian wrote: »

Here you go. Up to date for Summerset. 40k+ DPS.

Noice! I'm super interested and I'll be checking this out further. Thanks for sharing!

Dot use is a base part of all high end builds. You can minimize that though with NB or Sorc. 42k is close to the cap using Crushing Weapon. With Snipe you can get as much as 48k, solo buffed. This is mostly just showing off on dummy testing though because the NB can easily use Minor Berserk, Major Fracture, and Minor Fracture, where as if you hit 45k on a sorc without Majore Fracture or Minor Berserk you would be doing a lot more in a group providing those same buffs than the NB would.

https://m.imgur.com/EDb4yJH?r

SilverWF · July 2018

NaZuraith wrote: »

I'm fairly new to the game

So then you can ignore what that guys with "Viable!! Zillion k DPS!!!!" are saying.

Especially linked build. Not because this build is bad or his author are tricking or whatever - this is pretty good build (especially against target dummy).
But:
1st it requires to be max CP (750 atm)
2nd it requires DLCs, most important would be Summerset, then Orsinium (this one not a must tho)
3rd (if 2nd was achieved) it requires grind of veteran(!) Cloudrest trial and trust me, noone would take some strange guy with crazy build there

4th - it requires incredible luck on getting Maelstrom Bow from vMA, and trust me, without knowledge and really good gear/spec there, it would be impossible, just to complete it, not even talking about farming it.
(just 3 and 4 are 33% of his DPS)

So, until all of that it would be Meh build.
And you would lvl up in pretty common 2h (or 2w) / bow stamina builds and maybe somewhere at the endgame (in 1 year or even later) you can think about some kind of strange crazy builds ))

No offense, just reality.

Vizier · July 2018

I think Bow/Bow theoretically offers alot of promise. You have good single target damage on one bar with buffs, heals and CC on the other.

If I remember right Sypher used to use a Bow/Bow build on his NB and used Magnum Shot to great effect. Add the spamable immobilize/speed reduction of Arrow Spray and it could provide a very challenging and exciting build.

casparian · July 2018

NaZuraith wrote: »

Do you think there is much hope for having a bow build that doesn't just stack DoT's? I'm not opposed to using any of them at all. But I guess I find it much more satisfying to deal a chunk of damage straight out rather than stacking a billion dots on something.

All DPS in this game -- not just bow/bow -- is about stacking and managing uptime on multiple DOTs. That's just how the game is designed.

PVP is the part of the game where you can succeed by focusing on burst damage.

MashmalloMan · July 2018

Bosmer's are actually a really bad choice for BOW/BOW, just go Redguard or Khajiit. The passive from Redguard for stam return procs off of weapon enchants like poison. So use infused poison enchant bow front bar. The enchant counts as melee damage and procs effectively every 2seconds because of any bow weapon skills like Endless Hail, Posion Injection, Acid Spray. The 10% max stam and stam return beats Bosmer hands down. Khajiit works too, but lower sustain, about the same damage as redguard.

Edit: the 12% stamina recovery from Bosmer would need a heavy investment in to stam recovery in order for it to match the Redguards 792 stamina every 5seconds. (This comment is for PVE)

Toc de Malsvi · July 2018

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Bosmer's are actually a really bad choice for BOW/BOW, just go Redguard or Khajiit. The passive from Redguard for stam return procs off of weapon enchants like poison. So use infused poison enchant bow front bar. The enchant counts as melee damage and procs effectively every 2seconds because of any bow weapon skills like Endless Hail, Posion Injection, Acid Spray. The 10% max stam and stam return beats Bosmer hands down. Khajiit works too, but lower sustain, about the same damage as redguard.

Edit: the 12% stamina recovery from Bosmer would need a heavy investment in to stam recovery in order for it to match the Redguards 792 stamina every 5seconds. (This comment is for PVE)

Bosmer are SO bad that I put up that 48k parse with one. I mean if you are only doing 48k Bow/Bow then you might as well reroll am I right?

Dalsinthus · July 2018

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Edit: the 12% stamina recovery from Bosmer would need a heavy investment in to stam recovery in order for it to match the Redguards 792 stamina every 5seconds. (This comment is for PVE)

I assume this is just a typo, but it's actually 21%. If you're going to run dubious or other recovery food then it really helps. Otherwise you are correct that other race choices are likely better.

Dalsinthus · July 2018

SilverWF wrote: »

NaZuraith wrote: »

I'm fairly new to the game

So then you can ignore what that guys with "Viable!! Zillion k DPS!!!!" are saying.

Very fair point.

When I'm starting out a game like this I like to have something to build towards and know if where I am going with this is going to be useable at high level. That was the basis of my feedback. But for most overland pve and early game content, it doesn't really matter what weapon or sets you use.

NaZuraith · July 2018

SilverWF wrote: »

NaZuraith wrote: »

I'm fairly new to the game

So then you can ignore what that guys with "Viable!! Zillion k DPS!!!!" are saying.
Especially linked build. Not because this build is bad or his author are tricking or whatever - this is pretty good build (especially against target dummy).
But:
1st it requires to be max CP (750 atm)
2nd it requires DLCs, most important would be Summerset, then Orsinium (this one not a must tho)
3rd (if 2nd was achieved) it requires grind of veteran(!) Cloudrest trial and trust me, noone would take some strange guy with crazy build there
4th - it requires incredible luck on getting Maelstrom Bow from vMA, and trust me, without knowledge and really good gear/spec there, it would be impossible, just to complete it, not even talking about farming it.
(just 3 and 4 are 33% of his DPS)

So, until all of that it would be Meh build.
And you would lvl up in pretty common 2h (or 2w) / bow stamina builds and maybe somewhere at the endgame (in 1 year or even later) you can think about some kind of strange crazy builds ))

No offense, just reality.

Yeah you're probably right. But I suppose I'm hoping to just get in with a decent guild that doesn't mind me pursuing what I enjoy rather than just what's absolutely best. Though getting through vMA with bow/bow might be a bit difficult. Haha.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dot use is a base part of all high end builds. You can minimize that though with NB or Sorc. 42k is close to the cap using Crushing Weapon. With Snipe you can get as much as 48k, solo buffed. This is mostly just showing off on dummy testing though because the NB can easily use Minor Berserk, Major Fracture, and Minor Fracture, where as if you hit 45k on a sorc without Majore Fracture or Minor Berserk you would be doing a lot more in a group providing those same buffs than the NB would.

This makes a lot of sense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm getting is that NB in PvE is great solo because it has a lot of self buffs. StamSorc has less self buffs, but can still do comparable damage, which means when it's with a party (and gets the buffs from the party members) then it is better than NB? NB > Sorc in PvP, but Sorc > NB in PvE? Apart from maybe vMA where you would be going in solo, so NB self buffs might be super useful?
And just to confirm, NB/Sorc are the best options for edging out of the DoT meta?

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Bosmer's are actually a really bad choice for BOW/BOW, just go Redguard or Khajiit. The passive from Redguard for stam return procs off of weapon enchants like poison. So use infused poison enchant bow front bar. The enchant counts as melee damage and procs effectively every 2seconds because of any bow weapon skills like Endless Hail, Posion Injection, Acid Spray. The 10% max stam and stam return beats Bosmer hands down. Khajiit works too, but lower sustain, about the same damage as redguard.

Is the greater regen the only thing that sets Bosmer and Redguard apart? I know Khajiit has the crit bonus. But from what I've seen, it's pretty much just regen going for the Redguard. Bosmer has some other passives that might be more useful in PvP (mainly Stealthy and the Poison Resist). Maybe the boosts are negligible, but I wouldn't say they're a really bad choice.

Current conclusion:
Right now I'm sorta figuring things out with a Bosmer Night Blade. But it seems like I might want to consider trying a Redguard or Khajiit StamSorc if I want to be working towards PvE content in the late game?

DDuke · July 2018

Redguard is worth 316,8 "stam regen" if you land an attack that qualifies every 5 seconds.

In PvP this is highly unlikely as you'll often be unable to land those attacks (even with bombard being undodgeable) and lots of time on bow builds is spent in sneak recovering stamina/kiting opponents.

Bosmer passive on the other hand is worth 108 stam regen on base regen (514+21%), 175 on base regen+artaeum broth/dubious (833+21%) & 229 on base regen+artaeum broth/dubious+Marksman (1091+21%).

If you were to run 3x regen on jewelry as well the value from Bosmer passive would be 335, better than even the "best case scenario" of Redguard passive.

I'd say that as long as Marksman is worth slotting, Bosmer is the better race for PvP atleast, considering that Redguard passive won't be proccing every 5 seconds there.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2018

@NaZuraith I'm not saying stam sorc will pull 45k. I'm saying that for solo parses Stam sorc will always be behind, if the Stam Sorc parses close to the stam NB then you know that in a group buffed scenario the Stam Sorc will do more. This is assuming the Sorc is purely solo buffed.

Also as for avoiding dots, complete avoidance will kill your dps. Stam NB can cast fewer dots because of proccing Relentless. Stam Sorc can stack passives and cast more Snipes. Snipe is very efficient damage to cost, but snares and is delayed from cast+flight time. Neither one do you want to ignore dots, both can be effective with less dots than DKs or necessarily Templars and Wardens.

If you want to do good damage you will need to use dots. It might be possible to deal acceptable damage without dots but it isn't likely going to be effective or efficient.

NaZuraith · July 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@NaZuraith I'm not saying stam sorc will pull 45k. I'm saying that for solo parses Stam sorc will always be behind, if the Stam Sorc parses close to the stam NB then you know that in a group buffed scenario the Stam Sorc will do more. This is assuming the Sorc is purely solo buffed.

Gotcha. After looking through the sorc skill lines, I think I might just stick to NB. I do understand what you're saying.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2018

BTW assuming you just cannot possibly get any of the BiS gear you can make a more than viable PVE setup with gear that is acquirable through dungeons/overland content.

Bosmer 36k Bow/Bow, no VMA, no VDSA, no trial sets. Only Stormfist, 5 Hulking draugr, 5 Spriggans. Also limited dots to only Endless Hail and Poison Injection, otherwise pure snipe spam with Relentless Focus procs:

Edit: A quick note about this setup, the cleave is crappy which makes it really only very useful vs single target boss fights. And its using a ton of Snipes. But it works.

Thorstienn · July 2018

NaZuraith wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@NaZuraith I'm not saying stam sorc will pull 45k. I'm saying that for solo parses Stam sorc will always be behind, if the Stam Sorc parses close to the stam NB then you know that in a group buffed scenario the Stam Sorc will do more. This is assuming the Sorc is purely solo buffed.

Gotcha. After looking through the sorc skill lines, I think I might just stick to NB. I do understand what you're saying.

There are 2 great things about a sorc Bow.
1.they have passives that increase physical damage and an inbuilt physical damage execute.
2. You can make an exceptionally simple yet still strong (30+k DPS) build with them; 3 back bar DoTs (always there for stamina DPS), one 30 sec buff, one cast buff, and Focused aim spam.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2018

Thorstienn wrote: »

NaZuraith wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@NaZuraith I'm not saying stam sorc will pull 45k. I'm saying that for solo parses Stam sorc will always be behind, if the Stam Sorc parses close to the stam NB then you know that in a group buffed scenario the Stam Sorc will do more. This is assuming the Sorc is purely solo buffed.

Gotcha. After looking through the sorc skill lines, I think I might just stick to NB. I do understand what you're saying.

There are 2 great things about a sorc Bow.
1.they have passives that increase physical damage and an inbuilt physical damage execute.
2. You can make an exceptionally simple yet still strong (30+k DPS) build with them; 3 back bar DoTs (always there for stamina DPS), one 30 sec buff, one cast buff, and Focused aim spam.

To illustrate this:

31k Sorc Bow/Bow, 5 Hulking Draugr, 5 Spriggans, 2 Stormfist, no VMA, no VDSA. Snipe spam only using Poison Injection and Endless Hail, no Caltrops:

With tank applying Major Fracture this would go up to 35k, with Minor Berserk this would go up to 37k. Rotation is literally Endless Hail> Poison Injection> 5xFocused Aim> Heavy attack> back into Endless Hail, light attack between every skill and use Ballista as it comes up.

Bladerunner1 · July 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

BTW assuming you just cannot possibly get any of the BiS gear you can make a more than viable PVE setup with gear that is acquirable through dungeons/overland content.

Bosmer 36k Bow/Bow, no VMA, no VDSA, no trial sets. Only Stormfist, 5 Hulking draugr, 5 Spriggans. Also limited dots to only Endless Hail and Poison Injection, otherwise pure snipe spam with Relentless Focus procs:

Edit: A quick note about this setup, the cleave is crappy which makes it really only very useful vs single target boss fights. And its using a ton of Snipes. But it works.

Hey, thanks for posting this. After seeing such a high snipe number I had to try bow/bow again. Crushing weapons didn't feel right as a spammable, and I forgot how easily snipe and light attacks can weave together. It really does add a lot between relentless focus procs. This added another 5k to the DPS test, maybe more with practice.

NaZuraith · July 2018

Hello all. Thank you for the help earlier.

@Toc de Malsvi, What were the skill set ups you used on the snipe spam builds? I'm following on the gear, but what about the skills/bar set up?