Possible reason you lag when guilds come around.

frozywozy · July 2018

Even thought I am EP Zone General World 1st, I have to agree that my faction uses alot of lag switches and cheating tactics to overcome their enemies. I have seen more than once well known grand overlords turning on their exploits when they are low HP or when they are about to get zerged because of their big EGO.

I hope someday EP realize how pathetic they are and step up their gameplay to overcome the small man elite AD and DC running around at primetime. People need to realize that you can actually beat your enemies with skills and experience instead of lag switches or overwhelming numbers.

I mean even me sometimes I will be close to my ball group and I feel the electromagnetic discharges coming from certain people's hacks and it even powered off my computer once. Wake up EP. Git Gud!

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

The ball groups run builds that don’t require any character micro to use so they don’t mind the lag. They Are the greatest cause of the lag and the greatest beneficiaries of it.

I'm not sure you really know enough about groups if you're saying we don't mind the lag lol...

Lag is basically the main thing which kills us as a group. If we could use skills and strategies that we wanted without delays from lag we would be so happy lol.
Should hear how frustrated people are in group when we can't use skills. I would be interested in discussing what you mean when you talk about "character micro" though didn't know you are playing a sorc pet build XD

Short clip from upcoming video (seeing as I am editing it atm thought i'd include it).

https://youtu.be/hdS1NPaVPWg

Nothing against these guilds and pugs from coming to defend a home keep just pointing out that its a little far fetched to say that its only the 12-16 ppl causing the lag not the hordes they are fighting :P

It's also wonderful all the times when we are completely the other side of the map from a DC EP faction event at Chalman and siege can't be placed or abilities used. I never knew it was us trying to spread out away from the fights causing the lag consider me enlightened.

Hurtfan · July 2018

I've lagged out in small battles as well...no conspiracy here, move along now...

DuskMarine · July 2018

the orc army(not a guild name just a metric ton of orcs the guild has a different name) had pretty much broken the servers on sotha the other night they cannot hold up huge numbers of players without issues at all. we need more advanced servers or more upgraded ones.

rfennell_ESO · July 2018

griffkhalifa wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I'm not going to name names or even say which faction (it's irrelevant).

But... there is a zerg ball group that you can locate just by turning around and looking for the lag.

Not only can you identify where they are by doing this, it extends as far as to the next keep.

Lag has always been worse with a large group of people around...this doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't mean anything that I can locate a particular groups locations just by doing a 360 at a quiet spot?

I can even tell if they are moving toward a keep and get there before they flag it...

Vilestride · July 2018

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

griffkhalifa wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I'm not going to name names or even say which faction (it's irrelevant).

But... there is a zerg ball group that you can locate just by turning around and looking for the lag.

Not only can you identify where they are by doing this, it extends as far as to the next keep.

Lag has always been worse with a large group of people around...this doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't mean anything that I can locate a particular groups locations just by doing a 360 at a quiet spot?

I can even tell if they are moving toward a keep and get there before they flag it...

Keep that spidey sense tingling.

Wing · July 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

the orc army(not a guild name just a metric ton of orcs the guild has a different name) had pretty much broken the servers on sotha the other night they cannot hold up huge numbers of players without issues at all. we need more advanced servers or more upgraded ones.

@FENGRUSH orc army was hilarious and awesome, I may be on an opposing faction but even I can see how cool it was getting a bunch of people together (of many skill levels, there were only 2-3 requirements and neither were skill. for reference they were 1: be on pc na, 2: be DC, and 3: be an orc ) throw in a tiny bit of RP, and go PvP in cyro for the pure fun of PvP with others there doing the same thing.

I was actually rooting for them to get emp, they came really close a few times.

MaximillianDiE · July 2018

So a certain ball groups ex Havoc members have finally given up the secret to the Havoc, Lag Switch of Doom! I wonder how hard the ghost boss' of Tom Hanks and Anonymous Elf fought in order that the nerfarious crew could pry their cold dead fingers from that server stopping artifact.

WTS tin foil hats DC side NA Vivec - 100k guaranteed (but non refundable, buyer beware) to minimise the impact on your gameplay! If you buy one I will throw an attractive London bridge in with it.

DanteYoda · July 2018

I think Zos needs to do another hacking and botting purge.. I also think naming and shaming should be allowed by Zos.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

I think Zos needs to do another hacking and botting purge.. I also think naming and shaming should be allowed by Zos.

I'd really love for them to do a purge and have a zero tolerance on hacking and botting. Would give people less to tin foil over.

Wing · July 2018

one of the problems was cheat engine.

and even though they purged a lot of cheaters (that did come back) there have always been rumors and ideas that CE does still work as long as you don't edit values to be obviously too high.

whether this is true or not, if CE exits or not, the fact that for a long time it did in secret, and only got fixed because people made it obvious enough that ZOS had to go through and ban people.

that ruins any "trust" people have in pvp fights being fair, and once lost its gone for good.

its like sloads on the death recap, that's why they won the fight, because of sloads. once its known you actually can cheat, then that's the only way people win against you, by cheating, whether or not that's actually the case no longer matters, the trust is gone.

also lets not pretend all accusations are unfounded. I remember a specific EP guild back in the day sitting in a tower spamming various heals and other effects to take advantage of packet flow and lag out the server. things like this DID in fact happen as much as people like to pretend they didn't.

Vilestride · July 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

I think Zos needs to do another hacking and botting purge.. I also think naming and shaming should be allowed by Zos.

That would be awesome. Then less people would have excuses to clutch at and might just have to face the fact that they're bad.

technohic · July 2018

OMG. DId I hit a time machine? Just look at all the havoc in this thread

Rohamad_Ali · July 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

Even thought I am EP Zone General World 1st, I have to agree that my faction uses alot of lag switches and cheating tactics to overcome their enemies. I have seen more than once well known grand overlords turning on their exploits when they are low HP or when they are about to get zerged because of their big EGO.

I hope someday EP realize how pathetic they are and step up their gameplay to overcome the small man elite AD and DC running around at primetime. People need to realize that you can actually beat your enemies with skills and experience instead of lag switches or overwhelming numbers.

I mean even me sometimes I will be close to my ball group and I feel the electromagnetic discharges coming from certain people's hacks and it even powered off my computer once. Wake up EP. Git Gud!

Lol

dtsharples · July 2018

Ball groups cause lag, that's just a fact.
Any reasonably large sized group causes lag.
They have already stated that calculations are what is contributing to the lag.

But, it's unusual for an individual to turn up to PVP in sets such as Spell power cure, Sanctuary etc etc which all need to perform additional calculations when in a group.
Most 'LFGers' are not going to be wearing sets that are helpful to their group. They will likely be using a more 'selfish' build in order to keep themselves alive when they are running without a group.

Also, a lot of skill passives work on group members only - 'Illuminate' for example from the Templar Dawns Wrath skill-line.
"Mountains Blessing" in the DK skill-line, "Exploitation" in the Sorc skill-line and so on. These all add to those calculations.
Skill passives do not affect people outside of your group - so 20 individuals who aren't grouped are not causing any additional calculations to be made.

I'm not saying people shouldn't group ofc :P
The game was designed for group play - it just isn't actually managing that expectation very well.
But to say that groups / ball groups especially aren't adding to the lag, is just ridiculous.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

dtsharples wrote: »

Ball groups cause lag, that's just a fact.
Any reasonably large sized group causes lag.
They have already stated that calculations are what is contributing to the lag.

But, it's unusual for an individual to turn up to PVP in sets such as Spell power cure, Sanctuary etc etc which all need to perform additional calculations when in a group.
Most 'LFGers' are not going to be wearing sets that are helpful to their group. They will likely be using a more 'selfish' build in order to keep themselves alive when they are running without a group.

Also, a lot of skill passives work on group members only - 'Illuminate' for example from the Templar Dawns Wrath skill-line.
"Mountains Blessing" in the DK skill-line, "Exploitation" in the Sorc skill-line and so on. These all add to those calculations.
Skill passives do not affect people outside of your group - so 20 individuals who aren't grouped are not causing any additional calculations to be made.

I'm not saying people shouldn't group ofc :P
The game was designed for group play - it just isn't actually managing that expectation very well.
But to say that groups / ball groups especially aren't adding to the lag, is just ridiculous.

You could make the same arguments about soloers and proc sets and the lag they cause.
No one really knows the proportion of lag induced by being grouped vs not being.
I think what we can agree on is that lag is caused by number of players. It may or may not be scaled by being in a group. So when our group of 12-16 is fighting 20-60 others blaming the lag specifically on the 12-16 is very suspect.

You are right in the fact that the game was initially designed for groups. That's why there are so many mechanics for grouped players. But actually the game was also designed for ungroupped players to work together. Remember at the start we had purge / rapids across groups. Synergies didn't need to be grouped (and still don't).

I think what is required is a statement of intent from zos to say what they want cyro to be at this point. Trying to tinker with it without defining the goals isn't really helping anyone. Large battles? The player cap and lag prevents that. Small battles? The mechanics and rewards prevent that. It's kind of catch 22 atm.

Dravynn2525 · July 2018

Wing wrote: »

one of the things I wish the devs would do is mess with the terrain, bridges, outposts, add in more ruins, etc. to break up pvp a bit.

Be very careful for what you wish for....just saying.

DanteYoda · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I think Zos needs to do another hacking and botting purge.. I also think naming and shaming should be allowed by Zos.

I'd really love for them to do a purge and have a zero tolerance on hacking and botting. Would give people less to tin foil over.

Agreed 100%

dtsharples wrote: »

Ball groups cause lag, that's just a fact.
Any reasonably large sized group causes lag.
They have already stated that calculations are what is contributing to the lag.

But, it's unusual for an individual to turn up to PVP in sets such as Spell power cure, Sanctuary etc etc which all need to perform additional calculations when in a group.
Most 'LFGers' are not going to be wearing sets that are helpful to their group. They will likely be using a more 'selfish' build in order to keep themselves alive when they are running without a group.

Also, a lot of skill passives work on group members only - 'Illuminate' for example from the Templar Dawns Wrath skill-line.
"Mountains Blessing" in the DK skill-line, "Exploitation" in the Sorc skill-line and so on. These all add to those calculations.
Skill passives do not affect people outside of your group - so 20 individuals who aren't grouped are not causing any additional calculations to be made.

I'm not saying people shouldn't group ofc :P
The game was designed for group play - it just isn't actually managing that expectation very well.
But to say that groups / ball groups especially aren't adding to the lag, is just ridiculous.

Why then do people not mass disconnect in cities when hundreds of people are there, dueling and casting all over.. Why is it only mass disconnections in pvp...

Because in pvp a lot are running suspect stuff...

Thogard · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The ball groups run builds that don’t require any character micro to use so they don’t mind the lag. They Are the greatest cause of the lag and the greatest beneficiaries of it.

I'm not sure you really know enough about groups if you're saying we don't mind the lag lol...

Lag is basically the main thing which kills us as a group. If we could use skills and strategies that we wanted without delays from lag we would be so happy lol.
Should hear how frustrated people are in group when we can't use skills. I would be interested in discussing what you mean when you talk about "character micro" though didn't know you are playing a sorc pet build XD

Short clip from upcoming video (seeing as I am editing it atm thought i'd include it).
https://youtu.be/hdS1NPaVPWg

Nothing against these guilds and pugs from coming to defend a home keep just pointing out that its a little far fetched to say that its only the 12-16 ppl causing the lag not the hordes they are fighting :P

It's also wonderful all the times when we are completely the other side of the map from a DC EP faction event at Chalman and siege can't be placed or abilities used. I never knew it was us trying to spread out away from the fights causing the lag consider me enlightened.

Let’s not go there. We’ve had this conversation many times before.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

Ball groups cause lag, that's just a fact.
Any reasonably large sized group causes lag.
They have already stated that calculations are what is contributing to the lag.

But, it's unusual for an individual to turn up to PVP in sets such as Spell power cure, Sanctuary etc etc which all need to perform additional calculations when in a group.
Most 'LFGers' are not going to be wearing sets that are helpful to their group. They will likely be using a more 'selfish' build in order to keep themselves alive when they are running without a group.

Also, a lot of skill passives work on group members only - 'Illuminate' for example from the Templar Dawns Wrath skill-line.
"Mountains Blessing" in the DK skill-line, "Exploitation" in the Sorc skill-line and so on. These all add to those calculations.
Skill passives do not affect people outside of your group - so 20 individuals who aren't grouped are not causing any additional calculations to be made.

I'm not saying people shouldn't group ofc :P
The game was designed for group play - it just isn't actually managing that expectation very well.
But to say that groups / ball groups especially aren't adding to the lag, is just ridiculous.

You could make the same arguments about soloers and proc sets and the lag they cause.
No one really knows the proportion of lag induced by being grouped vs not being.
I think what we can agree on is that lag is caused by number of players. It may or may not be scaled by being in a group. So when our group of 12-16 is fighting 20-60 others blaming the lag specifically on the 12-16 is very suspect.

You are right in the fact that the game was initially designed for groups. That's why there are so many mechanics for grouped players. But actually the game was also designed for ungroupped players to work together. Remember at the start we had purge / rapids across groups. Synergies didn't need to be grouped (and still don't).

I think what is required is a statement of intent from zos to say what they want cyro to be at this point. Trying to tinker with it without defining the goals isn't really helping anyone. Large battles? The player cap and lag prevents that. Small battles? The mechanics and rewards prevent that. It's kind of catch 22 atm.

It’s the # of people who receive / are hit with a given effect. Remember that To-hit checks are done client side, your client tells the server who was in range and who wasn’t. If you hit 5 people with an AOE ability that means the server gets five messages from you, has to do five calculations, and then has to send out five dmg numbers to the people you hit.

Let’s look at two scenarios:
1. If you have one hundred duelers fighting each other, and they each smack each other once, that’s 100 sends from client to server, 100 calculations, and 100 sends from the server to the clients affected. Let’s say they do this for 8 seconds... total server calculations 100X8=800

2. If you have 50 people stacked up in a ball fighting 50 other people stacked up on a ball, and each of them activate destro ult for 8s, how does that compare?
Well for every player they’re hitting 50 players. So each individual client would send 50 “to hit” values to the server. Server would receive 5000 (100 players x 50 each). It would do 5000 dmg calculations, and it would send out 5000 dmg numbers. Over 8 seconds that’s 40,000 calculations.

So already the same number of players are taking up 50x more server resources PER PERSON by being in a ball instead of spread out and soloing

But wait. The ball group’s destro is just one attack, not eight consecutive ones like the soloers are using. They’ll also heal each other. And their earthgores will go off. And proxy det.

So yeah. AOE skills cause more lag than single target skills. That’s obvious.

And if you fight in such a way that you’re actively trying to hit as many people with your AOEs at the same time, then yeah, that’s what causes the lag.

Just don’t think that your healing doesn’t factor in. It definitely does.

When the ball groups log off, server goes back to being great.

I don’t blame the ball groups though. They’re playing efficiently and smart. They’re not trying to cause lag. I just wish ZOS would remove the incentives for using that playstyle.

Sondernaam · July 2018

I've personally never never experienced any sort of lag in ESO.
Maybe because I never tried playing the game with a 4mbps internet line!!

dtsharples · July 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

Why then do people not mass disconnect in cities when hundreds of people are there, dueling and casting all over.. Why is it only mass disconnections in pvp...

Because in pvp a lot are running suspect stuff...

As explained, because they are not in a big group.
Duels are between 2 people only. So not many calculations being made and sent to the server.

Also on that note - Wayrest for example, as a city has a particular sized zone area.
So anyone duelling in Wayrest, I presume would affect only the Wayrest zone. (i.e area of zone chat)
Once outside of Wayrest you are then in the Stormhaven zone. (possibly even a sub-zone)

As far as I know, Cyrodiil is just one huge zone.
Like I can be at Dragonclaw and type LFG, and people in Faregyl can read that chat.
Thats a huuuge! area.

I wonder if splitting Cyrodiil up into multiple zones would help alleviate the lagg.
Kinda like the districts in IC, just much larger.

visionality · July 2018

Some organized groups use addons which show them when their ultis are ready for the next destro-ulti-bomb. For coordination, those addons produce additional pings on the map which in turn produce lag. The lag is affecting the groups themselves and everybody nearby.

Add the "normal" lag produced by destrotrains and heavy fighting and you have your explanation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

visionality wrote: »

Some organized groups use addons which show them when their ultis are ready for the next destro-ulti-bomb. For coordination, those addons produce additional pings on the map which in turn produce lag. The lag is affecting the groups themselves and everybody nearby.

Add the "normal" lag produced by destrotrains and heavy fighting and you have your explanation.

Can you link your source post for that information @visionality

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The ball groups run builds that don’t require any character micro to use so they don’t mind the lag. They Are the greatest cause of the lag and the greatest beneficiaries of it.

I'm not sure you really know enough about groups if you're saying we don't mind the lag lol...

Lag is basically the main thing which kills us as a group. If we could use skills and strategies that we wanted without delays from lag we would be so happy lol.
Should hear how frustrated people are in group when we can't use skills. I would be interested in discussing what you mean when you talk about "character micro" though didn't know you are playing a sorc pet build XD

Short clip from upcoming video (seeing as I am editing it atm thought i'd include it).
https://youtu.be/hdS1NPaVPWg

Nothing against these guilds and pugs from coming to defend a home keep just pointing out that its a little far fetched to say that its only the 12-16 ppl causing the lag not the hordes they are fighting :P

It's also wonderful all the times when we are completely the other side of the map from a DC EP faction event at Chalman and siege can't be placed or abilities used. I never knew it was us trying to spread out away from the fights causing the lag consider me enlightened.

Let’s not go there. We’ve had this conversation many times before.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

Ball groups cause lag, that's just a fact.
Any reasonably large sized group causes lag.
They have already stated that calculations are what is contributing to the lag.

But, it's unusual for an individual to turn up to PVP in sets such as Spell power cure, Sanctuary etc etc which all need to perform additional calculations when in a group.
Most 'LFGers' are not going to be wearing sets that are helpful to their group. They will likely be using a more 'selfish' build in order to keep themselves alive when they are running without a group.

Also, a lot of skill passives work on group members only - 'Illuminate' for example from the Templar Dawns Wrath skill-line.
"Mountains Blessing" in the DK skill-line, "Exploitation" in the Sorc skill-line and so on. These all add to those calculations.
Skill passives do not affect people outside of your group - so 20 individuals who aren't grouped are not causing any additional calculations to be made.

I'm not saying people shouldn't group ofc :P
The game was designed for group play - it just isn't actually managing that expectation very well.
But to say that groups / ball groups especially aren't adding to the lag, is just ridiculous.

You could make the same arguments about soloers and proc sets and the lag they cause.
No one really knows the proportion of lag induced by being grouped vs not being.
I think what we can agree on is that lag is caused by number of players. It may or may not be scaled by being in a group. So when our group of 12-16 is fighting 20-60 others blaming the lag specifically on the 12-16 is very suspect.

You are right in the fact that the game was initially designed for groups. That's why there are so many mechanics for grouped players. But actually the game was also designed for ungroupped players to work together. Remember at the start we had purge / rapids across groups. Synergies didn't need to be grouped (and still don't).

I think what is required is a statement of intent from zos to say what they want cyro to be at this point. Trying to tinker with it without defining the goals isn't really helping anyone. Large battles? The player cap and lag prevents that. Small battles? The mechanics and rewards prevent that. It's kind of catch 22 atm.

It’s the # of people who receive / are hit with a given effect. Remember that To-hit checks are done client side, your client tells the server who was in range and who wasn’t. If you hit 5 people with an AOE ability that means the server gets five messages from you, has to do five calculations, and then has to send out five dmg numbers to the people you hit.

Let’s look at two scenarios:
1. If you have one hundred duelers fighting each other, and they each smack each other once, that’s 100 sends from client to server, 100 calculations, and 100 sends from the server to the clients affected. Let’s say they do this for 8 seconds... total server calculations 100X8=800

2. If you have 50 people stacked up in a ball fighting 50 other people stacked up on a ball, and each of them activate destro ult for 8s, how does that compare?
Well for every player they’re hitting 50 players. So each individual client would send 50 “to hit” values to the server. Server would receive 5000 (100 players x 50 each). It would do 5000 dmg calculations, and it would send out 5000 dmg numbers. Over 8 seconds that’s 40,000 calculations.

So to be clear your problem is with AOE abilities not with groups or a specific sub type of group playstyle.
It might be easier if you just lead with that.

Reverb · July 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

Even thought I am EP Zone General World 1st, I have to agree that my faction uses alot of lag switches and cheating tactics to overcome their enemies. I have seen more than once well known grand overlords turning on their exploits when they are low HP or when they are about to get zerged because of their big EGO.

I hope someday EP realize how pathetic they are and step up their gameplay to overcome the small man elite AD and DC running around at primetime. People need to realize that you can actually beat your enemies with skills and experience instead of lag switches or overwhelming numbers.

I mean even me sometimes I will be close to my ball group and I feel the electromagnetic discharges coming from certain people's hacks and it even powered off my computer once. Wake up EP. Git Gud!

If I rolled my eyes any harder at your heavy handed use of sarcasm, it would cause permanent damage.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2018

I think everyone knows, and i won't drop any names, but there is a guild called Havoc that is in a cave 24 man deep casting healing springs, always. This is a long established fact and the cause of lag in cyrodiil.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2018

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think everyone knows, and i won't drop any names, but there is a guild called Havoc that is in a cave 24 man deep casting healing springs, always. This is a long established fact and the cause of lag in cyrodiil.

Their location is underneath Nikel near the all seeing 'Eye of Wrobel'

https://youtu.be/aKLvMhujSpI

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think everyone knows, and i won't drop any names, but there is a guild called Havoc that is in a cave 24 man deep casting healing springs, always. This is a long established fact and the cause of lag in cyrodiil.

Their location is underneath Nikel near the all seeing 'Eye of Wrobel'
https://youtu.be/aKLvMhujSpI

LOL busted

rfennell_ESO · July 2018

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think everyone knows, and i won't drop any names, but there is a guild called Havoc that is in a cave 24 man deep casting healing springs, always. This is a long established fact and the cause of lag in cyrodiil.

It's always made into a joke.

However Havoc used to go to that shrine south of BRK and north of Sej and just AOE until the server died.

No one there... no reason to be casting... and they would sit there aoeing.

Before they mostly set off to pursue a life of dating super models and buying teslas I took a video of it and sent it in. I always though it was funny how they disappeared soon after.

Course they aren't the only group to do such things. Walker, Texas Ranger used to do it in the southern tower of ash.