Someone decided to join a Cloudrest run with only around 13k hp (with magicka/health food). I don't know what he was thinking but he died a lot.

The thing I noticed is that any skill that scales with health does not seem to be comparable with any skill that scales with magicka and stamina. Take the Warden's case for example. There's a skill there that scales with health, but even if you have 50k health, it's still not as powerful as that of the one that scales with magicka (even if you have your magicka at around 20k).

jypcy wrote: »

NB is great for end game pve in my experience. However, notable drawbacks to the class include:

No pull: silver leash is a substitute, but can be costly to run.

Swarm Mother's Monster Set - Pulls mobs to you while blocking, 1s cooldown

jypcy wrote: »

No engulfing flames: Magicka dps tend to use a lot of flame damage, so the 10% buff this skill adds can be significant. It doesn’t stack, though, so this is moot if somebody else in group is applying it.

As you can see, I'm lightning based. I use the "off-balance" debuff so the CP skill Exploiter grants 10% more damage to off-balance targets. As stated, more than likely there will be someone else applying the debuff.

jypcy wrote: »

No Magma shell: not a necessary skill, but arguably the best ultimate in the game if you need a quick “save me” button.

See Soul Tether ultimate in Siphoning tree.

jypcy wrote: »

No obsidian shield: not a huge shield for allies, but is useful to help a group survive during high damage phases. Bone shield is a possible substitute, but the group shield has a 20 second cooldown (and can be costly to run).

See Bolstering Darkness Ultimate in Shadow tree.

jypcy wrote: »

Poorer stamina sustain: there are workarounds for this, but I’ve found stamina sustain while tanking is easier on a warden or DK than my NB if only accounting for class abilities.

I'm magicka based and only use Stamina for blocking. A heavy attack is enough to fill my stamina pool back up.

jypcy wrote: »

Still, for the general things that a tank is expected to do (hold aggro, survive, buff allies and debuff enemies), NBs are absolutely fine.

I can agree with you there.

DuskMarine wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

I put a couple points into hp as a healer. I don't need even stronger heals my heals are strong enough and I have over 40k magicka with like 2700 regen.

It's important for a healer to survive and sometimes that extra few hundred hp helps.

Would I miss it if I put the last few points into magicka? Probably not. Would I get much better heals if I put them into magicka into hp? Not really.

honestly you never need more than 16k health(which is easily broken with just passives and food and ebon) so dumping everything into magicka or stamina really is the best option in everything which is sad as theyve basically turned the health attribute into a why is this even here.

16K is standard base for cp300 DD with dual food, I want to get a bit higher on healer in healing setup but does this with enchants as its easier to change, even in dungeon as in dd/ heal until last boss.
For me the same tactic would make sense for tanks, yes they need way higher base health but you still want flexibility. overland, easy dungeons or DD role then boos can not be tanked.

DuskMarine wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

I put a couple points into hp as a healer. I don't need even stronger heals my heals are strong enough and I have over 40k magicka with like 2700 regen.

It's important for a healer to survive and sometimes that extra few hundred hp helps.

Would I miss it if I put the last few points into magicka? Probably not. Would I get much better heals if I put them into magicka into hp? Not really.

honestly you never need more than 16k health(which is easily broken with just passives and food and ebon) so dumping everything into magicka or stamina really is the best option in everything which is sad as theyve basically turned the health attribute into a why is this even here.

Dont count on your tank running Ebon. Most tanks have Ebon, but not all(I have a set in my inventory, but will only equip it if I absolutely have to, there are many more sets that do more for the group than an extra 1k health). That being said...you certainly don't need your tank running Ebon to hit 16k. Even my lowest health builds hit 17k after eating food, but I do occasionally see a nightblade or sorc running around at 16k...dont think I have ever seen anyone lower than that with a food buff up.

josiahva wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Even on tanks you NEVER put points into health, only stamina and magicka. I am able to hit 50k health easily with just gear and enchants...why in the world would I ever use an attribute point for that nearly worthless stat? The advantage of never putting points in health is that with a simple gear and skill change I go from tank to wannabe-DPS(useful for fights where a tank is worthless) you cant do this if you have points in health...or not as effectively.

@josiahva One would assume from that statement that "you NEVER" have tanked a vet trial.

When I started tanking, it was for dungeons, and on a DPS character who would, with a swap of gear, be a tank. Doesn't matter what you do when you PUG a dungeon, as long as you taunt and don't die.

That kind of tank would be wholly inadequate in a vet trial. First, because you are limited in your gear selection. Your group expects the tank to wear certain sets that buff the group or debuff the enemy. You don't get much health if you're expected to wear Torug+Alkosh (Ebon+Alkosh is slightly better but still not that much health).

Second, because you do need a lot of health in many vet trials. If you're a tank in vAS HM, you want around 40K if you are an experienced tank running with an experienced group. If you or your group is inexperienced, you'd want even more. The only way to get 40K while still wearing the kinds of non-selfish sets expected of a good tank is to have all 64 points in health.

Third, for tanks with good resource management, large magicka and stamina pools are useless. If you use more resources than you get back, then a larger pool merely delays the inevitable moment when you run dry. And if you have good resource management and get back more resources than you use, then the size of the resource pool is largely irrelevant. Health is far more useful, as it means your shields and self-heals are more effective.

I am very much aware of this. With 0 points in health, using purple gear I end up with 50.5k Health, 22k Stam, and 12k Magicka(focusing on stamina and magicka regen over large pools). Now, that 50.5K health is using Plague Doctor+Imperium...replace that with Alkosh+Torug's and you are at 40936 health using the same setup. It is true I play an Imperial and mostly health enchants, so that helps a bit...but still...if I can hit 40k health without ever putting a point in health stat...why would I? I also use the health Mundus though. My point is you are wrong...you dont need a single point in health to hit 40k. If you are still short of 40k you could always use Thorvukun for an extra 1206 health(though it might not be the best choice...its still a tempting choice with the minor maim(and less useful minor defile). Now going into a trial I change up the enchants for a bit more stam and a bit less health so I usually end up about 39k health, 24k stam, and 11k Magicka if using Alkosh and Torug's. (or 38k health if Alkosh+Powerful Asssault). The only time you need to put points in health is if you need more than 40k while wearing those sets...or more than 50k wearing plague doctor.

I don’t doubt that you can make your build work, but you do get more resources spending attribute points in health and other glyphs and food to accommodate. Values are from gold glyphs applied to gold, infused large pieces (if you include shield as well). Feel free to check the math as I did it mostly in my head haha

Health Glyphs: 3432 (1144)
Mag/Stam Attributes: 7104
Total: 10,536 (11,680)

Prismatic Glyphs: 4836 (1612)
Health Attribute: 7808
Total: 12,644 (14,256)

Of course it doesn’t boil down to strictly which is the bigger number in practice, but certainly there’s value in using health attribute points. Especially since sets like plague doctor really aren’t all that useful for the vast majority of end game content. And they’re definitely not necessary for any of it.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by end game content. I don't use plague doctor to run vet trials...but I do use it for vet DLC dungeons, not because I need 50k health(though that is useful for surviving Dranos in a pug in vCoS when your group members don't interrupt ads pinning you) but because the larger my health pool, the larger my shields...it makes igneous shield and bone shield much more effective for the group...top it off with imperium and barrier and you can hit 50k shield stacking for the entire group(plus more for you with psijiic passive and ice staff taunt shield) It has a dramatic effect of group survivability if you pug a lot of vet DLC dungeons...essentially anyone who stays relatively close to you as the tank will be hard to kill, especially if the DPS bother to hit the spinal surge synergy.

Re: Dranos. 32K health and max resistances, with major prot active mitigates that hit and many other boss “one shots” to around 25K. 40K Health, max resistances, major and minor prot and you can take Anvil Crackers in BRF to the face, too. Even then Plague Doctor is still rather useless. Only good for Blazplars now (and I prefer less health, more resources and Reactive on mine—PVP).

Peekachu99 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Even on tanks you NEVER put points into health, only stamina and magicka. I am able to hit 50k health easily with just gear and enchants...why in the world would I ever use an attribute point for that nearly worthless stat? The advantage of never putting points in health is that with a simple gear and skill change I go from tank to wannabe-DPS(useful for fights where a tank is worthless) you cant do this if you have points in health...or not as effectively.

@josiahva One would assume from that statement that "you NEVER" have tanked a vet trial.

When I started tanking, it was for dungeons, and on a DPS character who would, with a swap of gear, be a tank. Doesn't matter what you do when you PUG a dungeon, as long as you taunt and don't die.

That kind of tank would be wholly inadequate in a vet trial. First, because you are limited in your gear selection. Your group expects the tank to wear certain sets that buff the group or debuff the enemy. You don't get much health if you're expected to wear Torug+Alkosh (Ebon+Alkosh is slightly better but still not that much health).

Second, because you do need a lot of health in many vet trials. If you're a tank in vAS HM, you want around 40K if you are an experienced tank running with an experienced group. If you or your group is inexperienced, you'd want even more. The only way to get 40K while still wearing the kinds of non-selfish sets expected of a good tank is to have all 64 points in health.

Third, for tanks with good resource management, large magicka and stamina pools are useless. If you use more resources than you get back, then a larger pool merely delays the inevitable moment when you run dry. And if you have good resource management and get back more resources than you use, then the size of the resource pool is largely irrelevant. Health is far more useful, as it means your shields and self-heals are more effective.

I am very much aware of this. With 0 points in health, using purple gear I end up with 50.5k Health, 22k Stam, and 12k Magicka(focusing on stamina and magicka regen over large pools). Now, that 50.5K health is using Plague Doctor+Imperium...replace that with Alkosh+Torug's and you are at 40936 health using the same setup. It is true I play an Imperial and mostly health enchants, so that helps a bit...but still...if I can hit 40k health without ever putting a point in health stat...why would I? I also use the health Mundus though. My point is you are wrong...you dont need a single point in health to hit 40k. If you are still short of 40k you could always use Thorvukun for an extra 1206 health(though it might not be the best choice...its still a tempting choice with the minor maim(and less useful minor defile). Now going into a trial I change up the enchants for a bit more stam and a bit less health so I usually end up about 39k health, 24k stam, and 11k Magicka if using Alkosh and Torug's. (or 38k health if Alkosh+Powerful Asssault). The only time you need to put points in health is if you need more than 40k while wearing those sets...or more than 50k wearing plague doctor.

I don’t doubt that you can make your build work, but you do get more resources spending attribute points in health and other glyphs and food to accommodate. Values are from gold glyphs applied to gold, infused large pieces (if you include shield as well). Feel free to check the math as I did it mostly in my head haha

Health Glyphs: 3432 (1144)
Mag/Stam Attributes: 7104
Total: 10,536 (11,680)

Prismatic Glyphs: 4836 (1612)
Health Attribute: 7808
Total: 12,644 (14,256)

Of course it doesn’t boil down to strictly which is the bigger number in practice, but certainly there’s value in using health attribute points. Especially since sets like plague doctor really aren’t all that useful for the vast majority of end game content. And they’re definitely not necessary for any of it.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by end game content. I don't use plague doctor to run vet trials...but I do use it for vet DLC dungeons, not because I need 50k health(though that is useful for surviving Dranos in a pug in vCoS when your group members don't interrupt ads pinning you) but because the larger my health pool, the larger my shields...it makes igneous shield and bone shield much more effective for the group...top it off with imperium and barrier and you can hit 50k shield stacking for the entire group(plus more for you with psijiic passive and ice staff taunt shield) It has a dramatic effect of group survivability if you pug a lot of vet DLC dungeons...essentially anyone who stays relatively close to you as the tank will be hard to kill, especially if the DPS bother to hit the spinal surge synergy.

Re: Dranos. 32K health and max resistances, with major prot active mitigates that hit and many other boss “one shots” to around 25K. 40K Health, max resistances, major and minor prot and you can take Anvil Crackers in BRF to the face, too. Even then Plague Doctor is still rather useless. Only good for Blazplars now (and I prefer less health, more resources and Reactive on mine—PVP).

No...its still useful for a shield spamming build....when I choose to go full shield spamming mode(this is necessary sometimes...useful for the last phase of the treeminder in vRoM with a pug, as well as other fights). As for Major protection...you dont get that from many places...Pirate Skeleton(which may or may not proc on Dranos) Psijiic passive(certainly WONT proc on Dranos since you are pinned) Ironblood set(another proc chance) and that's it for major protection...you cant count on a single one to save you from Dranos if he isnt interrupted. 50k health WILL save you every time(assuming maxed resistances). Minor protection isn't much more common...circle of protection(which is controllable, so nice) and potions(also semi-controllable) the other sources are class skills or ults that may or may not be available when you need them most. Major and minor protection are not always available...whereas health is on 100% of the time. Again, I like that 50k health pool not for myself(I can survive on less easily) but because it makes my shields stronger for the group when needed. If I dont need that, I have many other sets to choose from, Alkosh, Powerful assault, Torug's Pact, etc etc, all in my inventory...but in general I have found Plague Doctor/Imperium on a DK to be the best setup for successfully completing pugged vet DLC dungeons. With an experienced pre-made, I choose other sets...or if I go into trials...other sets, but I like that combo as my default pug setup since it tends to make everyone who stays reasonably close tanky.

pelle412 wrote: »

You can reach high health with some race/gear combinations without putting any points into health. For tanks why does any of this really matter? If you can do your job in a trial and your raid leader is fine with your setup, it shouldn't matter how your attributes are divided up.

Not true...because you lose the ability to DPS with a gear swap(or do so as effectively) if you waste points in the health attribute. Admittedly, end game tanks arent often DPSing...but it does come in handy to swap gear and be able to DPS the planar inhibitor, or Drodda, or Grobull, etc since a tank is pretty worthless in some fights, and leaving that choice open by NOT investing attribute points is a smarter option than investing attribute points in health and then being stuck with worse DPS on those fights you gear and skill swap for. So it DOES make a difference...even if its only 5% of the time. Also...when doing overland content on my tank I swap to DPS gear and skills...and that is also made easier because I never choose the health attribute, so that increases the time I am wearing DPS gear on my tank to about 10% of the time.