2h maul, vs sword vs axe pvp

Chilly-McFreeze · June 2018

cpuScientist wrote: »

Also Sword is always the safest choice as it also buffs heals. But that 5% is more like 3-3.5% with CP diminishing returns.

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Sword: When you're not lacking anything in particular in your build for your purposes, this is the best option. It also is the best backbar option since it will increase your healing while on it. It

Why do I keep reading this? The tooltip for Heavy Weapons clearly states: "Swords increase your damage done by 5%". Is this something I entirely missed or is this just a misinformation that keeps spreading?

templesus · June 2018

srnm wrote: »

Use an axe if you are building for bleeds.
But, in PvP, you are almost always better off with a maul.

As someone pointed out, swords don't buff your heals.
And the sword damage bonus is halved in PvP.
If you think 2.5% extra dmg is going to make a difference against a sorc's shield vs all the dmg you miss out on vs unshielded targets then use the sword ...

Actually, it isn’t halved, it increases your overall damage by 5%, which is then halved. By a simple calculation, say incap has a tooltip of 10,000 with a maul. Switching to Sword buffs that damage by 5% equating to 10,500 damage tooltip. That is then halved to 5,250. By your incorrect math, you are saying that half of the 10,000 maul damage, 5,000, is buffed by 2.5%, which nets a tooltip of 5,125 damage. This is false, that is not how the math on damage done works whilst in Cyrodiil. In cases where base damage tooltips are higher then 10,000, the numerical difference between the sword tooltip vs maul tooltip increases at a linear rate.

Please, people, stop posting false information on forum posts, especially when math like this is elementary school level. I take university calculus, it’s not hard to crunch numbers like these and get facts straight so you don’t look like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

They just bypass a percentage of the enemies resistance, so they’re all around most effective against heavy armor. If you run a maul the benefit is that you can avoid putting CP into phys pen or it’s like having the 5th trait of spriggans against heavy armor. I actually find penetration to be more useful in no CP.

Maul penetration bonus applies after any debuff calculation i.e Major / Minor Fracture etc. It has nothing to do with putting CP in penetration.

But does it calculate off the top or after the other debuff calculations? I think you misunderstood what I said. Instead of putting 3k+ penetration in CP like you’d do with a sword you can use that CP elsewhere.

There are two kinds of armor reductions. Personal armor piercing, which leaves mob armor the same but lets you and you alone ignore some of it. Sharpened and the passives on Mauls/Maces are like this. And mob armor debuffs, which reduce mob armor and allow everyone to hit mob a little harder. Things like Major/Minor Fracture, Alkosh, Crusher Enchant, etc., debuff enemy armor.

The formula is:
((Mob Base Armor - Mob Armor Debuffs) * (1 - percentage penetration)) - Flat Penetration

Note that the debuffs are skills that benefit the whole group, so armor sets like TFS and spriggan and kraghs are calculated after mauls/maces percentages, as is sharpened/lover.

glavius · June 2018

Axes do far more damage to high armor targets than mauls do.

Asardes · June 2018

Unless going for a bleed build, 2H sword is always better.

Maul ignores 20% of remaining resistance on target, after other things like major/minor fracture and CP in piercing have been substracted. Also penetration doesn't apply to shields so only if atacking stamina players or magicka ones after their shields are depleted will result in extra damage done.

In order for maul to equal sword:

(1-0.8*r)/(1-r) = 1.05
with r=R/66000 where R is the remaining resistance and r is that value divided by 66000 since players are considered to be lelel 66

1.05 - 1.05*r = 1 - 0.8*r => 0.05 = 0.25r => r = 0.2 => R = 13.3K.

So a player would need to have at least 13.3K remaining resistance and no shields for mauls to beat swords. Since Sorcerer doesn't have access to Major Fracture unless running 1H+S or NMG set, let's assume that's the actual resistance, which is about the same as 7 medium.

In no-CP, when going strictly against medium and heavy armor players maul will do slightly more damage than sword but will do much less against light armor users both because the actual penetration on armor is lower, and because shields are immune.

srnm · June 2018

templesus wrote: »

Please, people, stop posting false information on forum posts, especially when math like this is elementary school level. I take university calculus, it’s not hard to crunch numbers like these and get facts straight so you don’t look like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Sorry, approx. 2.5%

The PvPers that I know that use 2H for damage use mauls for non-bleed builds.
I've seen people people switch back to maul after trying axe and sword.

People interested in what is better should try the different weapons for themselves - at least in part because only ZOS knows how the damage calculation is done -- and the final number is likely to involve more factors than presented above.

But I am not one of those people that use 2H for damage - so my original mistake was getting involved in this discussion in the first place. My double bad...

Exodium · June 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sword does not buff heals.

It's strictly a %-damage modifier (just like minor berserk, for instance), it DOESN'T boost your weapon damage, not does it modify your healing dealt/received.

Not the first time I've heard this misconception and I really don't know where it comes from.

Can someone actually confirm this? I think a lot of people are under the conception that swords increase healing.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

@Asardes after other things like major/minor fracture and CP in piercing have been substracted

You have a source on mauls penetration being after the cp node? Every source I have seen only puts debuffs before it and as far as I can tell, piercing is not a debuff. It is personal buff, like the lover or sharpened.

Cavedog · June 2018

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

Who needs penetration when axe bleed bypasses resistance? I think maul is the weakest of the 3 but thats just my opinion

It's not just your opinion. These things ebb and flow a bit, depending on the update, but right now as of Summerset release, nobody should be using mauls or maces. At this time, you want swords for pve, and axes for pvp.

pve=swords
pvp=axes

...then use daggers if you a crit build, for both pvp and pve.....

templesus · July 2018

srnm wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Please, people, stop posting false information on forum posts, especially when math like this is elementary school level. I take university calculus, it’s not hard to crunch numbers like these and get facts straight so you don’t look like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Sorry, approx. 2.5%

The PvPers that I know that use 2H for damage use mauls for non-bleed builds.
I've seen people people switch back to maul after trying axe and sword.

People interested in what is better should try the different weapons for themselves - at least in part because only ZOS knows how the damage calculation is done -- and the final number is likely to involve more factors than presented above.

But I am not one of those people that use 2H for damage - so my original mistake was getting involved in this discussion in the first place. My double bad...

Lol just curious, why did you edit and change your comment?

Exodium · July 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sword does not buff heals.

It's strictly a %-damage modifier (just like minor berserk, for instance), it DOESN'T boost your weapon damage, not does it modify your healing dealt/received.

Not the first time I've heard this misconception and I really don't know where it comes from.

Holy crap I just tested this myself and you're 100% right. My vigour ticks were literally exactly the same regardless of whether I was using a 2h Sword or Axe (both are golded and of the same set).

This misconception is literally everywhere though!!! So many build videos out there claim swords do in fact increase healing.

Parobro · August 2018

so what is best then at the very end of the line?

like really mathmatically not some conceptionBS someone says here, just straight out more DPS on a max armor target.

Enslaved · August 2018

Axe is for bleeds
Sword is for magicka users that dont have 2x 1h swords for DW
Maul is not that good

Mister_DMC · August 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

As a stam sorc what do I want to run? is an axe perferable for the bleed?

If playing BGs or a dot build use an axe, if open world use a maul. Basically never use a sword unless it's all you have.

Morgul667 · August 2018

I like to go with the axe on a stamsorc

Asardes · August 2018

I have established somewhat of a rule of thumb:
- high weapon damage build: I go for swords
- lower weapon damage build: I go for axe
The cutoff point is 4K, before berserker enchanter proc, but with set proc (ex. Seventh Legion)

If you have high damage (and in some cases crit) the 5% damage for sword is more beneficial because you can burst people faster with Reverse Slice/Executioner (or Killer's Blade). If you have lower damage the extra DoT from Heavy Weapons is more beneficial in putting extra pressure on them since I can't rely on very high skill tool tips to kill them. On 2W I go Axe main hand, sword off hand, since the LA/HA weave from the main hand hits the target more often, and has a higher likelyhood of causing a bleed, while the offhand 2.5% sword bonus applies to all skills.

DeadlyRecluse · August 2018

I generally prefer swords, as the axe doesn't help as much in AOE situations, and neither the axe or maul help against shields. The axe bleed proc is strong but hard to control, and reproccing the axe bleed can subtract ticks (so it's a tossup whether you want lots of chances to proc vs few changes to proc)--I'd think about axes if I was running noCP with skoria and wanted another dot, or if I was strictly dueling and could swap to a sword against magicka specs, but that's pretty cheesy.

Ravereth · October 2018

Damn, interesting topic, one of the very few valuable here, imho.

It would be nice if you would continue your thoughts, guys.

Just saying...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Asardes after other things like major/minor fracture and CP in piercing have been substracted

You have a source on mauls penetration being after the cp node? Every source I have seen only puts debuffs before it and as far as I can tell, piercing is not a debuff. It is personal buff, like the lover or sharpened.

@Asardes you have any source that cp is before mauls?

Emmagoldman · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

For starters I would not recommend the Maul since magsorcs are the meta right now so I would only consider the battle-axe or the greatsword. With that said it depends on your play style. If you're a DoT heavy build that applies a lot of pressure then I say go for the axe. If you're very bursty then I'd recommend the greatsword.

where are you playing where magsorcs are the meta? In bgs, ateast in pc na, they are rare and they are far from top tier in duels. I plat shor and no cp and they are by far not the most dominate class. I think you are stuck in one tameriel.

As to the original response, there isnt one meta weapon. Maul is nice but you see its greatest returns with HA builds. There are a lot of tanky HA builds and maul will hit hard. It is great for bursty set ups.

*next patch* shield strength is influenced by resists, wouldnt penetration have impact? Kind of null seing that shield users will drop off next patch.

Bleeds on axes are really strong and if you are on stamsorc, you could easily make a bleed build. I have a dual wield stamdk that is a bleed build and as the build is stacking dots, axes add a lot to being able to have constant pressure.

swords are all around good and do impact your healing. I view swords as the safest bet, but again, think of how you play.

Daggers are great in pve and decent in pvp, if you dual wield, having crit isnt a bad thing (though i would use 1 dagger). Crits also impact your heals, which people generally dont consider.

Jameliel · October 2018

Thought someone tested and showed swords don't impact heals?

Banana · October 2018

Swords look better.

hakan · October 2018

well.. since thread necro'ed i will ask: now shields have resistance so mauls will be a bit better?

Ravereth · October 2018

Banana wrote: »

Swords look better.

Tbh, doesn't matter. You can use outfit station and change maul skin to sword skin, etc., etc...

hakan wrote: »

well.. since thread necro'ed i will ask: now shields have resistance so mauls will be a bit better?

Exactly, new patch inc., new changes, new thoughts.

Arthalion1 · October 2018

I'm interested in this topic. Question, so, a maul ignores 20% of armour. Am I therefore correct to say that a maul will out perform a sword so long as the target has more than 15k resists?

The reasoning behind this statement is that 20% means you are ignoring 3000 armour, which offers 5%(roughly) mitigation.

I am currently using a 2h axe. I do wonder if maul will be better next patch as I'm guessing the majority of people will have 20k+ resists, so you'll be looking at a 7% damage increase at all times, rather than hoping for a bleed?

Thoughts?

Parobro · October 2018

lets say i fight against a decent tanked shield user, he has 17k Resistance (my magblade uses lightarmor and has 24k)

i use major fracture and now he has around 12k left, and then i apply my maul that has base 100 penetration plus the 20% ignored resistance is: 12000 x 0,2 = 2400 equal to PlusDamage% of: 2400 / 660 = 3,63%

the same with my magblade light armor build at 24k resistances will be 24000 - 5200 (M. Frac.) - 100 (Base Pen.) = 28700
and these 28700 x 0,2 = 3740 what equals to 3740 / 660 = 5,66% more damage so overall its a gamble that u can get 0,66% more damage with a maul over having always 5% with a sword.

not worth my opinion tho.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2018

Parobro wrote: »

lets say i fight against a decent tanked shield user, he has 17k Resistance (my magblade uses lightarmor and has 24k)

i use major fracture and now he has around 12k left, and then i apply my maul that has base 100 penetration plus the 20% ignored resistance is: 12000 x 0,2 = 2400 equal to PlusDamage% of: 2400 / 660 = 3,63%

the same with my magblade light armor build at 24k resistances will be 24000 - 5200 (M. Frac.) - 100 (Base Pen.) = 28700
and these 28700 x 0,2 = 3740 what equals to 3740 / 660 = 5,66% more damage so overall its a gamble that u can get 0,66% more damage with a maul over having always 5% with a sword.

not worth my opinion tho.

Aren't they taking away the 100 base pen?

Arthalion1 · October 2018

@Parobro thanks for the reply. It's a shame the 20% comes after other debuffs. It makes it quite useless!

Parobro · October 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Parobro wrote: »

lets say i fight against a decent tanked shield user, he has 17k Resistance (my magblade uses lightarmor and has 24k)

i use major fracture and now he has around 12k left, and then i apply my maul that has base 100 penetration plus the 20% ignored resistance is: 12000 x 0,2 = 2400 equal to PlusDamage% of: 2400 / 660 = 3,63%

the same with my magblade light armor build at 24k resistances will be 24000 - 5200 (M. Frac.) - 100 (Base Pen.) = 28700
and these 28700 x 0,2 = 3740 what equals to 3740 / 660 = 5,66% more damage so overall its a gamble that u can get 0,66% more damage with a maul over having always 5% with a sword.

not worth my opinion tho.

Aren't they taking away the 100 base pen?

idk, but if so, maul is less worth over sword in the lower resistance profiles, if it coes hgher it isnt much of a diffrence imo

Kanar · October 2018

In CP, Mauls are pretty much always better than swords unless you apply major fracture and fight a lot of light armor targets.

Given that majority of targets are running 20k+ res, yeah mauls are better.

Axes are of course good too but different style.
Swords are bad.