2h maul, vs sword vs axe pvp

Aliyavana

As a stam sorc what do I want to run? is an axe perferable for the bleed?

Vapirko

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

Aliyavana

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

Vapirko

Aliyavana wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

They just bypass a percentage of the enemies resistance, so they’re all around most effective against heavy armor. If you run a maul the benefit is that you can avoid putting CP into phys pen or it’s like having the 5th trait of spriggans against heavy armor. I actually find penetration to be more useful in no CP.

Aliyavana

Vapirko wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

They just bypass a percentage of the enemies resistance, so they’re all around most effective against heavy armor. If you run a maul the benefit is that you can avoid putting CP into phys pen or it’s like having the 5th trait of spriggans against heavy armor. I actually find penetration to be more useful in no CP.

ugh, cries in transmutation stones

Lord_Eomer

Vapirko wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

They just bypass a percentage of the enemies resistance, so they’re all around most effective against heavy armor. If you run a maul the benefit is that you can avoid putting CP into phys pen or it’s like having the 5th trait of spriggans against heavy armor. I actually find penetration to be more useful in no CP.

Maul penetration bonus applies after any debuff calculation i.e Major / Minor Fracture etc. It has nothing to do with putting CP in penetration.

davidj8291

He isn’t saying it has anything to do with it. He is saying since the Maul has a passive penetration quality, you don’t need to put as many CP into Physical Penetration. Which is true. You can reasonably reallocate CPs elsewhere.

Lord_Eomer

davidj8291 wrote: »

He isn’t saying it has anything to do with it. He is saying since the Maul has a passive penetration quality, you don’t need to put as many CP into Physical Penetration. Which is true. You can reasonably reallocate CPs elsewhere.

More penetration is never useless in PVP, it only fails against damage shield and Mauls are bad if you are already applying any debuff i.e. major / minor fracture

Aliyavana

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

davidj8291 wrote: »

He isn’t saying it has anything to do with it. He is saying since the Maul has a passive penetration quality, you don’t need to put as many CP into Physical Penetration. Which is true. You can reasonably reallocate CPs elsewhere.

More penetration is never useless in PVP, it only fails against damage shield and Mauls are bad if you are already applying any debuff i.e. major / minor fracture

so you can never have to much penetration?

Leandor

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

davidj8291 wrote: »

He isn’t saying it has anything to do with it. He is saying since the Maul has a passive penetration quality, you don’t need to put as many CP into Physical Penetration. Which is true. You can reasonably reallocate CPs elsewhere.

More penetration is never useless in PVP, it only fails against damage shield and Mauls are bad if you are already applying any debuff i.e. major / minor fracture

Which part is true? You say more penetration is good and more penetration is useless in the same sentence

griffkhalifa

Aliyavana wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

davidj8291 wrote: »

He isn’t saying it has anything to do with it. He is saying since the Maul has a passive penetration quality, you don’t need to put as many CP into Physical Penetration. Which is true. You can reasonably reallocate CPs elsewhere.

More penetration is never useless in PVP, it only fails against damage shield and Mauls are bad if you are already applying any debuff i.e. major / minor fracture

so you can never have to much penetration?

In theory I think you can...you could get to a point where your penetration is greater than their resistances and the excess penetration doesn't do any additional damage.

I'm not sure how often this occurs, though. It would probably be really difficult to "over penetrate" in PvP, but maybe I'm wrong.

cpuScientist

It wholly depends on what you find more troubling to deal with. If you find shielded players to be a problem use sword. If you find heavy armor targets to be the problem use maul. I would generally say axe is better in duels. And not as good open world because it's a prolonged fight where the benefits would be best IMO and in open world you don't usually have that kinda time.

So for me, I kinda prefer maul on my stamblade because I can kill light armor targets fairly easily,and if they are shielded patience or running them out of stamina is better.

But a StamSorc I'd go for Max tooltip tbh. Especially if you are spin to win and your sword is your heal bar. But if you spam wrecking I'd still go sword probably.

Also Sword is always the safest choice as it also buffs heals. But that 5% is more like 3-3.5% with CP diminishing returns.

But yeah depends on who gives you the most trouble, if it's tankier targets and you feel you are just missing a little damage then maul if anyone else sword if duels axe.

Strider__Roshin

For starters I would not recommend the Maul since magsorcs are the meta right now so I would only consider the battle-axe or the greatsword. With that said it depends on your play style. If you're a DoT heavy build that applies a lot of pressure then I say go for the axe. If you're very bursty then I'd recommend the greatsword.

TheYKcid

Sword does not buff heals.

It's strictly a %-damage modifier (just like minor berserk, for instance), it DOESN'T boost your weapon damage, not does it modify your healing dealt/received.

Not the first time I've heard this misconception and I really don't know where it comes from.

josiahva

Daus wrote: »

For starters I would not recommend the Maul since magsorcs are the meta right now so I would only consider the battle-axe or the greatsword. With that said it depends on your play style. If you're a DoT heavy build that applies a lot of pressure then I say go for the axe. If you're very bursty then I'd recommend the greatsword.

I would run a maul and equip Shield Breaker...then I wouldn't have to worry about shield stacking sorcs or heavy armor users nearly as much...and glass cannon builds would melt even faster. If not running shield breaker, then I would use the sword or axe.

RajinPVP

Who needs penetration when axe bleed bypasses resistance? I think maul is the weakest of the 3 but thats just my opinion

Chilly-McFreeze

On a dot build i would go for the Axe. Another layer and ignored resistance. If you run a strict burst build that relies on weapon abilities - and you do as a stam sorc - go for swords. Pen is „too niche“ bc of shields.

Edziu

josiahva wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

For starters I would not recommend the Maul since magsorcs are the meta right now so I would only consider the battle-axe or the greatsword. With that said it depends on your play style. If you're a DoT heavy build that applies a lot of pressure then I say go for the axe. If you're very bursty then I'd recommend the greatsword.

I would run a maul and equip Shield Breaker...then I wouldn't have to worry about shield stacking sorcs or heavy armor users nearly as much...and glass cannon builds would melt even faster. If not running shield breaker, then I would use the sword or axe.

maul have nothing to shieldbreaker as sb is oblivion dmg which itself have 100% penetration

and as for me mauls/maces was never worth using in this game except when it had bug to exploit and gain 100% penetration xD

+ its useless agains people without resistance cap
+ and % armor penetration from armor is going after all reductions before like major fracture, sharpened etc so if you have something to penetration then more maul is useless

josiahva

Edziu wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

For starters I would not recommend the Maul since magsorcs are the meta right now so I would only consider the battle-axe or the greatsword. With that said it depends on your play style. If you're a DoT heavy build that applies a lot of pressure then I say go for the axe. If you're very bursty then I'd recommend the greatsword.

I would run a maul and equip Shield Breaker...then I wouldn't have to worry about shield stacking sorcs or heavy armor users nearly as much...and glass cannon builds would melt even faster. If not running shield breaker, then I would use the sword or axe.

maul have nothing to shieldbreaker as sb is oblivion dmg which itself have 100% penetration

and as for me mauls/maces was never worth using in this game except when it had bug to exploit and gain 100% penetration xD

+ its useless agains people without resistance cap
+ and % armor penetration from armor is going after all reductions before like major fracture, sharpened etc so if you have something to penetration then more maul is useless

That is exactly the point...mauls do nothing against shields, and with magsorc shield stacking being meta...use shield breaker to make up for that shortcoming. The maul is useful against heavy armor users...shield stackers and heavy armor users are the majority of PvPers...hence...the maul is useful if used in conjunction with shield breaker...if not used in conjunction with that one set, I wouldn't use it.

Nevasca

Depends on what your build is for, and what do you think it fits best.

Maul: When you do not have any armor pen debuff on your enemy like Major/Minor Fracture. This is because Maul % will work on the debuffed enemy resistances, not on their "Original" resistances @Leandor . Maul should be used when you think you will be facing agains't high resistances targets but do not have access to armor debuffs. Maul works wonders on BS+Heavy Armor meta for example.

Axe: If this is your main bar, and you think you're lacking DPS pressure, Axe is a good option

Sword: When you're not lacking anything in particular in your build for your purposes, this is the best option. It also is the best backbar option since it will increase your healing while on it. EDIT: No, Swords don't buff heals. My bad.

Aliyavana

Thank you guys for being informative

Leandor

@Littlebluelizard thanks mate, but my point was to point out the contradiction in his statement, not a question on the mechanics themselves.

Also, considering this is a pvp themed discussion, and since heavy armor and resistance stacking is an important part of builds for especially battlegrounds and phys resist values of 25k to 30k to even higher is still prevalent, the 20% reduction from mauls is still usefull even wih fracture applied.

Especially since crusher enchant and other stackable sources of armor reduction are much less available in the fast paced, often chaotic combat in pvp.

The only real disadvantage of mauls is their uselessness against damage shields. But this also applies to armor debuffs or other sources of penetration (i.e. CP) and as such is not applicable in the context of evaluating mauls against e.g. spriggan's.

EDIT: Just as a ballpark number, based on 33k resistance resulting in 50% damage mitigation, a maul with 20% resistance reduction would result in a higher damage increase than a sword starting from ~16500 resistance rating. Adding major fracture we're at ~21800. That is a value that is quite easily achievable, even for light armor builds in pvp-land (s&b + 1 heavy + class buff, for example).

Nevasca

Leandor wrote: »

@Littlebluelizard thanks mate, but my point was to point out the contradiction in his statement, not a question on the mechanics themselves.

Also, considering this is a pvp themed discussion, and since heavy armor and resistance stacking is an important part of builds for especially battlegrounds and phys resist values of 25k to 30k to even higher is still prevalent, the 20% reduction from mauls is still usefull even wih fracture applied.

Especially since crusher enchant and other stackable sources of armor reduction are much less available in the fast paced, often chaotic combat in pvp.

The only real disadvantage of mauls is their uselessness against damage shields. But this also applies to armor debuffs or other sources of penetration (i.e. CP) and as such is not applicable in the context of evaluating mauls against e.g. spriggan's.

He said it's bad because of that mechanic, that's why I quoted you. It's bad because it's inefective, if you need more penetration even with Major Fracture, you should invest in Sharpened, CP, etc, rather than Maul, because it's more effective. That's why Maul is not good on a NB for example, and that's why in PvE you don't use Maces.

Leandor

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

...and that's why in PvE you don't use Maces.

I give up.

srnm

Use an axe if you are building for bleeds.
But, in PvP, you are almost always better off with a maul.

As someone pointed out, swords don't buff your heals.
And the sword damage bonus is halved in PvP.
If you think 2.5% extra dmg is going to make a difference against a sorc's shield vs all the dmg you miss out on vs unshielded targets then use the sword ...

Sixty5

At absolute maximum, you are getting 5% damage out of a maul, so sword is always better.

On a Stam Sorc, axe vs sword depends heavily on what you are playing.
If your build is focused on popping people with Dizzy + Dawnbreaker, then sword will be your best option.

If you don't have the damage to one combo half of cyrodil, or if you are using crit surge, go with the Axe.
Stam sorc loves physical dots, and lacks innate ways to wear enemies down.

Vapirko

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

They just bypass a percentage of the enemies resistance, so they’re all around most effective against heavy armor. If you run a maul the benefit is that you can avoid putting CP into phys pen or it’s like having the 5th trait of spriggans against heavy armor. I actually find penetration to be more useful in no CP.

Maul penetration bonus applies after any debuff calculation i.e Major / Minor Fracture etc. It has nothing to do with putting CP in penetration.

But does it calculate off the top or after the other debuff calculations? I think you misunderstood what I said. Instead of putting 3k+ penetration in CP like you’d do with a sword you can use that CP elsewhere.

Vapirko

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

They just bypass a percentage of the enemies resistance, so they’re all around most effective against heavy armor. If you run a maul the benefit is that you can avoid putting CP into phys pen or it’s like having the 5th trait of spriggans against heavy armor. I actually find penetration to be more useful in no CP.

Maul penetration bonus applies after any debuff calculation i.e Major / Minor Fracture etc. It has nothing to do with putting CP in penetration.

But does it calculate off the top or after the other debuff calculations? I think you misunderstood what I said. Instead of putting 3k+ penetration in CP like you’d do with a sword you can use that CP elsewhere.

Vapirko

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Try and see what you like, they’re all effective. You see most people running swords or axes. Mauls can be good too but are more niche because they don’t matter v shields.

in no cp are mauls even less effective?

They just bypass a percentage of the enemies resistance, so they’re all around most effective against heavy armor. If you run a maul the benefit is that you can avoid putting CP into phys pen or it’s like having the 5th trait of spriggans against heavy armor. I actually find penetration to be more useful in no CP.

Maul penetration bonus applies after any debuff calculation i.e Major / Minor Fracture etc. It has nothing to do with putting CP in penetration.

But does it calculate off the top or after the other debuff calculations? I think you misunderstood what I said. Instead of putting 3k+ penetration in CP like you’d do with a sword you can use that CP elsewhere.

GreenSoup2HoT

Kinda sad that the differences in the weapons is so small.

Wing

I avoid mauls because they are ONLY better vs high armor builds (as its % based not flat pen) that gives them to specific of a niche.

that leaves swords and axes.

axes bleed is good vs everyone but is very rng dependent.

swords are the clear winner hear as flat damage is not only good no matter what your fighting and does not rely on rng (very consistent) but the base damage increase also effects heals (rally, vigor, etc.) meaning its also the best DEFENSIVE option as well. (also because its flat damage increase they benefit more from nirnhoned as well)

swords will never not be good in the end.