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Frag CC or Ruin Cage CC?
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Troneon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I’d take a complete Sorc overhaul rather, thank you very much.
This ^^
Someone at ZOS is obviously biased by protecting sorcs from nerfs for years and constantly gutting all other class's with insane nerfs....over and over...PC EU ADMaster Crafter - Anything you need!!High Elf Magicka Templar Healer/DPS/TankTrials / Dungeons / PVP / Everything1 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruinHere’s the problem with adding a CC back to frags:
We get a dodgeable, reflectable, blockable stun on a crappy 8K frag that does even less if the enemy is wearing more than one heavy piece. And our class will be at the bottom of a barrel of garbage.
We can’t empower a frag anymore.
The shadow mundus is nerfed.
They took 10% damage off a proc.
We won’t be hitting people like we did back pre Morrowind with 12-15K crystal frags. Those days are done.
Now if they just reverted Cage to do no damage, between maintaining a shield stack and stunning someone, we’re blowing 3 out of 6 GCD doing no damage. That’s assuming we aren’t CC’ed or pressured because that drops to 0.
I don’t know what the answer is, maybe cage needs a range, damage, and duration nerf. Maybe they need to revert cage, and buff frags on a proc considerably. Maybe they need to turn the cage damage into a DOT instead.
A lot of GOOD Sorcs here want frags to have the stun back because they remember how good it was, I just don’t think they’ve done the math this patch. We play in another era of permanent blocking and dodge rolling.
If you take away the damage from Rune Cage the skill becomes useless, the burst simply will not be there, even considering buffs to light attacks.
I like the idea of changing the damage to a DoT or reduce the damage and have it add some kind of minor buff, ideas that were thrown around in the PTS.
I think that Frag should have a damage morph and a CC morph. Both have the proc mechanic, but one does 20%(maybe 25%) proc damage and slightly faster travel time or better proc rate and the other 10% but with stun. It really opens up diversity this way.
Although I do agree that sorcs need an overhaul. The class identity has gone by the way side. Offensive rotation is clunky/overloaded with uncounterable damage. Mobility is abysmal for the "mobile" class and shield stacking, while nowhere near overpowered as trash blades would have you believe, does get dull and is the most punishing in lag. I'd rather have Lightning Form be meaningful. Sorcs are the only class that don't need to run their Major defence buffs.
TL;DR
-nerf unblockable burst
-buff mobility
-nerf shield stacking
-buff reactive mitigation
-buff pressure/give us 1 more offensive "Minor" buff/debuff1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruinHere’s the problem with adding a CC back to frags:
We get a dodgeable, reflectable, blockable stun on a crappy 8K frag that does even less if the enemy is wearing more than one heavy piece. And our class will be at the bottom of a barrel of garbage.
We can’t empower a frag anymore.
The shadow mundus is nerfed.
They took 10% damage off a proc.
We won’t be hitting people like we did back pre Morrowind with 12-15K crystal frags. Those days are done.
Now if they just reverted Cage to do no damage, between maintaining a shield stack and stunning someone, we’re blowing 3 out of 6 GCD doing no damage. That’s assuming we aren’t CC’ed or pressured because that drops to 0.
I don’t know what the answer is, maybe cage needs a range, damage, and duration nerf. Maybe they need to revert cage, and buff frags on a proc considerably. Maybe they need to turn the cage damage into a DOT instead.
A lot of GOOD Sorcs here want frags to have the stun back because they remember how good it was, I just don’t think they’ve done the math this patch. We play in another era of permanent blocking and dodge rolling.
If you take away the damage from Rune Cage the skill becomes useless, the burst simply will not be there, even considering buffs to light attacks.
I like the idea of changing the damage to a DoT or reduce the damage and have it add some kind of minor buff, ideas that were thrown around in the PTS.
I think that Frag should have a damage morph and a CC morph. Both have the proc mechanic, but one does 20%(maybe 25%) proc damage and slightly faster travel time or better proc rate and the other 10% but with stun. It really opens up diversity this way.
Although I do agree that sorcs need an overhaul. The class identity has gone by the way side. Offensive rotation is clunky/overloaded with uncounterable damage. Mobility is abysmal for the "mobile" class and shield stacking, while nowhere near overpowered as trash blades would have you believe, does get dull and is the most punishing in lag. I'd rather have Lightning Form be meaningful. Sorcs are the only class that don't need to run their Major defence buffs.
TL;DR
-nerf unblockable burst
-buff mobility
-nerf shield stacking
-buff reactive mitigation
-buff pressure/give us 1 more offensive "Minor" buff/debuff
This please.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruinPut the CC on the frag but give something to stamsorc1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Hmm I want to see what conspiracy theory hides behind nightblades beeing even less touched then sorcs.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Undesirable ? By whom ? Problem with desires is that they are subjective thing and lately we can observe increase in magsorc population in PvP which kinda suggest opposite to Your words.
Undesireable in a way that reverting cage will not fix the issues of the class - while putting cc back on frags will not restore that ability to it´s former glory.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruin3. Damage nerf on Frags reverted in exchange for Cage damage.
I wish it were that simple. Frags benefitted from the damage nerf (10% more on a proc), the Shadow mundus (nerfed), and empowerment (nerfed).
Putting the “frags damage back” would result in 800 damage on an 8K frag proc, so 8800 damage.
We’re still missing 1600 from empower, another 800 or so from shadow, another 1000 or so from sharpened nerf, etc. All of that is gone and the game design is different now.
All that, and still nobody will EVER use a blockable, dodgeable cage (as suggested here by the game design geniuses who just happen to play stamina). We’ll use reach, because it’s smoother, faster, cheaper, it does more damage, and it has a DOT. So what is the POINT of cage if it’s nerfed?
Edited by Minalan on June 25, 2018 7:07AM1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Minalan
Besides, you have to actually hit first. The projectile is so slow and so visible that this either needs close range or an opponent who is out of stam.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruin
Hmm I want to see what conspiracy theory hides behind nightblades beeing even less touched then sorcs.
Simple, nerfing a class based heavily on stealth with a non functional stealth would just be cruelty to the poor blades. Unfortunately no one realized how broken OP stealth and the NB in general was at max potential, especially after everything else was nerfed.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep things as isI prefer the rune cage stun over the old cfrags stun because rng isnt a factor.
DKs and NBs also have a hard CC that goes through block and isnt rng so I dont think the stun itself is that overpowered.
The rune cage dmg might be a bit much with all the other sorc burst dmg like mages fury, curse and cfrags.
Its just too easy to line up good burst in 3.5 sec, even without popping an ultimate.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep things as isThere's far stronger classes to worry about tuning right now. Sorc is not tier 1 by any means.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruin
Hmm I want to see what conspiracy theory hides behind nightblades beeing even less touched then sorcs.
Simple, nerfing a class based heavily on stealth with a non functional stealth would just be cruelty to the poor blades. Unfortunately no one realized how broken OP stealth and the NB in general was at max potential, especially after everything else was nerfed.
Hilarious and old excuse, because stealth seems to work EVERY TIME it’s employed against me, even when it shouldn’t - like when cloak forces repeated *miss* when under a detect pot.
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭3. Damage nerf on Frags reverted in exchange for Cage damage.
I wish it were that simple. Frags benefitted from the damage nerf (10% more on a proc), the Shadow mundus (nerfed), and empowerment (nerfed).
Putting the “frags damage back” would result in 800 damage on an 8K frag proc, so 8800 damage.
We’re still missing 1600 from empower, another 800 or so from shadow, another 1000 or so from sharpened nerf, etc. All of that is gone and the game design is different now.
All that, and still nobody will EVER use a blockable, dodgeable cage (as suggested here by the game design geniuses who just happen to play stamina). We’ll use reach, because it’s smoother, faster, cheaper, it does more damage, and it has a DOT. So what is the POINT of cage if it’s nerfed?
True. However, I'm not talking about the recent 10% damage nerf. I want the full 20% damage restored, which should be well enough for a high-damage build.
This would have consequences for PvE, as well. I would estimate a possible slight buff to pet sorcs, and a big buff to non-pet, both appreciated. Also a possible re-introduction of Frags into a pet sorc rota, meaning Minor Prophecy for the group. I think everyone would win.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruin
Hmm I want to see what conspiracy theory hides behind nightblades beeing even less touched then sorcs.
Simple, nerfing a class based heavily on stealth with a non functional stealth would just be cruelty to the poor blades. Unfortunately no one realized how broken OP stealth and the NB in general was at max potential, especially after everything else was nerfed.
Hilarious and old excuse, because stealth seems to work EVERY TIME it’s employed against me, even when it shouldn’t - like when cloak forces repeated *miss* when under a detect pot.
It was an old excuse. It works as intended now, and is absolutely OP, the force misses under detection is stupid. The fact that it pretty much only has hard counters that require a lot of sacrifice are also stupid.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Morvane✭✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruinBrutusmax1mus wrote: »Rune cage is strong, but mages wrath needs to go.
excuse, but you need to go firstDC Dunmer Sorcerer since 2014
@morvayn54, PC/EU0 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruinFrag should get its stun back, rune cage should be reverted.
I also think procced frag should additionally get its 10% damage back. Pre Morrowind/Clockwork frag was far more rewarding than current cheesy rune cage.
Ok so You just used word "rewarding" to replace "cheesy" with it ? There is nothing rewarding with stun that with the same global cooldown brings very high dmg to the combo. Bringing old frag back would just make sorc burst combo 1 ability simplier and faster which means much more deadly on enemies that will get hitted by it and basicly unchanged on others since You still could use cage on the rest. Old frag could come back only if curse would be turned into DoT dmg.
Well I'll just continue to rune cage you then.The Age of Wrobel.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I dont like either plan if I am being honest. Rune Cage and Fossilze have a place in the current roll dodge/permablock meta. Giving frags (whose damage has been nerfed) a stun back and nerfing Cage off a sorcs bars is not the answer.
Sorc is over performing in two ways IMO. Sorc is probably the most narrow class in terms of playstyle at the moment, so breaking either of these skills would be too much. Subtle changes are the answer, but unforutunately, ZOS has a history of lacking subtlety.
First, rune cage is a little over the top. I think it could have 2 nerfs. Cut the range down to say 15 meters. This would still act like a ranged ability, but you wont have people spamming it from across the map. It would mean that the sorc does have to engage the fight to be effective. It doesnt make sense to take it down to 8 meters as it plays against the sorc toolkit. I think you could also nerf the damage at the end by 15-25%. Shortening the duration would be meaningless.
Second, Mages Wrath is again a little over the top in BGs. In open world, I really dont think its that big of a deal. KBs dont really mean all that much. In BGs, they are more important, and certanly a sorc stealing kills can be annoying. I think you could potentially lower the execute range a touch, say 15%, or perhaps, they could look at how kills are actually calculated. Rather than Assists and KBs, they could figure out a way to figure out who did the most damage to them in the last 5 seconds or whatever and give that person the kill. I dont think its as big of a deal as some, because most premades have at least 1 sorc on them so i think the kill stealing does tend to balance itself out. You would have to be careful with PVE balance here. Maybe make one skill function like mages wrath currently does but at a lower percent, and another morph function more like a traditional execute but at a higher health range.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 25, 2018 5:56PM2 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep things as isOreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I dont like either plan if I am being honest. Rune Cage and Fossilze have a place in the current roll dodge/permablock meta. Giving frags (whose damage has been nerfed) a stun back and nerfing Cage off a sorcs bars is not the answer.
Sorc is over performing in two ways IMO. Sorc is probably the most narrow class in terms of playstyle at the moment, so breaking either of these skills would be too much. Subtle changes are the answer, but unforutunately, ZOS has a history of lacking subtlety.
First, rune cage is a little over the top. I think it could have 2 nerfs. Cut the range down to say 15 meters. This would still act like a ranged ability, but you wont have people spamming it from across the map. It would mean that the sorc does have to engage the fight to be effective. It doesnt make sense to take it down to 8 meters as it plays against the sorc toolkit. I think you could also nerf the damage at the end by 15-25%. Shortening the duration would be meaningless.
Second, Mages Wrath is again a little over the top in BGs. In open world, I really dont think its that big of a deal. KBs dont really mean all that much. In BGs, they are more important, and certanly a sorc stealing kills can be annoying. I think you could potentially lower the execute range a touch, say 15%, or perhaps, they could look at how kills are actually calculated. Rather than Assists and KBs, they could figure out a way to figure out who did the most damage to them in the last 5 seconds or whatever and give that person the kill. I dont think its as big of a deal as some, because most premades have at least 1 sorc on them so i think the kill stealing does tend to balance itself out. You would have to be careful with PVE balance here. Maybe make one skill function like mages wrath currently does but at a lower percent, and another morph function more like a traditional execute but at a higher health range.
Mages Fury could have a pvp and pve morph because its too strong in pvp and pretty weak in pve.
Endless Fury (pve morph) instant execute dmg from 25% health, reduce cost and increase shock dmg by 2% for each explosion within 4 seconds (10 stacks max).
Mages Wrath (pvp morph) base dmg + execute dmg from 20% health (reduce the explosion dmg by roughly 15-20%).PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Cenom✭✭✭Keep things as isI don't think so... I think it was overloaded and caused issues on PvE, making mobs immune. But something indeed needs to change. I am farming the 1000 kills BG achievement so easy it's not even funny.0 -
Ender1310✭✭✭✭I actually like the idea of refunding the cost on streak if it stuns. This adds the skill to sorcs. In order to land your burst on demand with cc you have to hit your opponent with streak. But if you do the cost is refunded and your next streak for 20seconds becomes free. Or tweak as needed.1 -
Own✭✭✭✭Bumi Rockafella wrote: »If you had a choice would you take the frag CC and revert ruin or keep things as is?
And make curse blockable0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruinBumi Rockafella wrote: »If you had a choice would you take the frag CC and revert ruin or keep things as is?
And make curse blockable
Why let it do any damage at all? Remove it from the game.0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruinA lot of GOOD Sorcs here want frags to have the stun back because they remember how good it was, I just don’t think they’ve done the math this patch. We play in another era of permanent blocking and dodge rolling.
I want frags back because I only do PvE (in ESO) and PvE was much better with proper class signature abilities. And if because of frags, sorcs become a laughing stock in PvP it means ZOS will stop nerfing my PvE because of PvP.
Edited by Vahrokh on June 28, 2018 1:13AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruin
Undesirable ? By whom ? Problem with desires is that they are subjective thing and lately we can observe increase in magsorc population in PvP which kinda suggest opposite to Your words.
Attracting 1 billion baddies because they read on the interwebz that now Sorc = easy win is not the best way to get our class restored to decent identity and functionality.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Give frags CC, revert ruin
Undesirable ? By whom ? Problem with desires is that they are subjective thing and lately we can observe increase in magsorc population in PvP which kinda suggest opposite to Your words.
Attracting 1 billion baddies because they read on the interwebz that now Sorc = easy win is not the best way to get our class restored to decent identity and functionality.
They all rerolled their stamblades from last patch...0
