Frag CC or Ruin Cage CC?

NinchiTV

If you had a choice would you take the frag CC and revert ruin or keep things as is?

Feanor

I’d take a complete Sorc overhaul rather, thank you very much.

Elwendryll

Keep things as is

Make it stamina based. I won't use crystal frag on my stam sorc

Irylia

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Remove rc stun give us frag.

To comment above
Like the removal of pets and a stronger version of talons. Remove those and expand on a sorc identity.

Pets are just finicky and useless in pvp outside of duels. They have constant pve issues and bug complaints and have to be double barred.

Make a world tree skill line “beasthunter” and have 5 unique pet options or the ability to catch various pets from around Tamriel that fill a skill slot during the world quest line. Providing dozens of pet options. Capture 5 initially and find out there’s a better one for your build? Remove your skillpoints and directly replace one pet with another after capturing.

OdinForge

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Frag should get its stun back, rune cage should be reverted.

I also think procced frag should additionally get its 10% damage back. Pre Morrowind/Clockwork frag was far more rewarding than current cheesy rune cage.

Brutusmax1mus

Rune cage is strong, but mages wrath needs to go.

Killset

Sorcs are ridiculously strong right now.., Something needs to change.

Minalan

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Here’s the problem with adding a CC back to frags:

We get a dodgeable, reflectable, blockable stun on a crappy 8K frag that does even less if the enemy is wearing more than one heavy piece. And our class will be at the bottom of a barrel of garbage.

We can’t empower a frag anymore.
The shadow mundus is nerfed.
They took 10% damage off a proc.

We won’t be hitting people like we did back pre Morrowind with 12-15K crystal frags. Those days are done.

Now if they just reverted Cage to do no damage, between maintaining a shield stack and stunning someone, we’re blowing 3 out of 6 GCD doing no damage. That’s assuming we aren’t CC’ed or pressured because that drops to 0.

I don’t know what the answer is, maybe cage needs a range, damage, and duration nerf. Maybe they need to revert cage, and buff frags on a proc considerably. Maybe they need to turn the cage damage into a DOT instead.

A lot of GOOD Sorcs here want frags to have the stun back because they remember how good it was, I just don’t think they’ve done the math this patch. We play in another era of permanent blocking and dodge rolling.

Juhasow

Revert Rune Cage to pre Summerset state without changing anything with frag. Magsorcs dont needs stun with frag neither overpowered stun which Rune Cage right now is.

Juhasow

OdinForge wrote: »

Frag should get its stun back, rune cage should be reverted.

I also think procced frag should additionally get its 10% damage back. Pre Morrowind/Clockwork frag was far more rewarding than current cheesy rune cage.

Ok so You just used word "rewarding" to replace "cheesy" with it ? There is nothing rewarding with stun that with the same global cooldown brings very high dmg to the combo. Bringing old frag back would just make sorc burst combo 1 ability simplier and faster which means much more deadly on enemies that will get hitted by it and basicly unchanged on others since You still could use cage on the rest. Old frag could come back only if curse would be turned into DoT dmg.

NinchiTV

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Killset wrote: »

Sorcs are ridiculously strong right now.., Something needs to change.

Agreed, it actually gets boring after like an hour.

PhoenixGrey

Give frags CC, revert ruin

i would like that extra bar slot for something more useful

WuffyCerulei

Give frags CC, revert ruin

With some of these comments...

Kadoin

Keep things as is

No to frags stun coming back unless they also give back blazing shards stun and revert all other nerfs to "over loaded" skills. Otherwise, no. People crying about rune cage stun don't realize it takes ONE skill slot. That's worth more than anything in PvP IMO, esp. on a sorc...

pieratsos

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Minalan wrote: »

Here’s the problem with adding a CC back to frags:

We get a dodgeable, reflectable, blockable stun on a crappy 8K frag that does even less if the enemy is wearing more than one heavy piece. And our class will be at the bottom of a barrel of garbage.

We can’t empower a frag anymore.
The shadow mundus is nerfed.
They took 10% damage off a proc.

We won’t be hitting people like we did back pre Morrowind with 12-15K crystal frags. Those days are done.

Now if they just reverted Cage to do no damage, between maintaining a shield stack and stunning someone, we’re blowing 3 out of 6 GCD doing no damage. That’s assuming we aren’t CC’ed or pressured because that drops to 0.

I don’t know what the answer is, maybe cage needs a range, damage, and duration nerf. Maybe they need to revert cage, and buff frags on a proc considerably. Maybe they need to turn the cage damage into a DOT instead.

A lot of GOOD Sorcs here want frags to have the stun back because they remember how good it was, I just don’t think they’ve done the math this patch. We play in another era of permanent blocking and dodge rolling.

It aint about wanting it back because they remember how good it was. Its about wanting to make the class more skill based instead of crutching on one trick pony broken abilities to be relevant.

Id rather be bottom of the barrel than crutching on rune cage. At least then the class could get attention to become more balanced instead of being OP because of one stupid ability.

Gprime31

Frag cc just remove insta proc or give it to dis swing

Nerftheforums

Keep things as is

Don't take away my way of one shotting people ty bb

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

I’d take a complete Sorc overhaul rather, thank you very much.

This.

It´s not done with frag cc and reverting cage. The class has been maneuvered into an undesirable corner balancing wise.

Juhasow

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I’d take a complete Sorc overhaul rather, thank you very much.

This.

It´s not done with frag cc and reverting cage. The class has been maneuvered into an undesirable corner balancing wise.

Undesirable ? By whom ? Problem with desires is that they are subjective thing and lately we can observe increase in magsorc population in PvP which kinda suggest opposite to Your words.

Vapirko

Keep things as is

Minalan wrote: »

Here’s the problem with adding a CC back to frags:

We get a dodgeable, reflectable, blockable stun on a crappy 8K frag that does even less if the enemy is wearing more than one heavy piece. And our class will be at the bottom of a barrel of garbage.

We can’t empower a frag anymore.
The shadow mundus is nerfed.
They took 10% damage off a proc.

We won’t be hitting people like we did back pre Morrowind with 12-15K crystal frags. Those days are done.

Now if they just reverted Cage to do no damage, between maintaining a shield stack and stunning someone, we’re blowing 3 out of 6 GCD doing no damage. That’s assuming we aren’t CC’ed or pressured because that drops to 0.

I don’t know what the answer is, maybe cage needs a range, damage, and duration nerf. Maybe they need to revert cage, and buff frags on a proc considerably. Maybe they need to turn the cage damage into a DOT instead.

A lot of GOOD Sorcs here want frags to have the stun back because they remember how good it was, I just don’t think they’ve done the math this patch. We play in another era of permanent blocking and dodge rolling.

Finally some sense. Reverting frags does not mean it will be what it once was, likely it’s going to be terrible. Adjust rune prison if you want but it’s the CC created for this era of PvP and it need to be unblockable/reflectable, ranged to be in line with sorc skills and do at least some damage.

Wing

Give frags CC, revert ruin

frags CC because reflecting that sorc crap back at em and watching them clothes line themselves with their own crap never gets old.

its like a lesser version of reflecting these overload builds back at themselves and watching them just take themselves out, so much fun.

. . .makes me miss the days of bouncing meteors back. . .GREAT TIMES!

bardx86

Keep things as is

Minalan wrote: »

Here’s the problem with adding a CC back to frags:

We get a dodgeable, reflectable, blockable stun on a crappy 8K frag that does even less if the enemy is wearing more than one heavy piece. And our class will be at the bottom of a barrel of garbage.

We can’t empower a frag anymore.
The shadow mundus is nerfed.
They took 10% damage off a proc.

We won’t be hitting people like we did back pre Morrowind with 12-15K crystal frags. Those days are done.

Now if they just reverted Cage to do no damage, between maintaining a shield stack and stunning someone, we’re blowing 3 out of 6 GCD doing no damage. That’s assuming we aren’t CC’ed or pressured because that drops to 0.

I don’t know what the answer is, maybe cage needs a range, damage, and duration nerf. Maybe they need to revert cage, and buff frags on a proc considerably. Maybe they need to turn the cage damage into a DOT instead.

A lot of GOOD Sorcs here want frags to have the stun back because they remember how good it was, I just don’t think they’ve done the math this patch. We play in another era of permanent blocking and dodge rolling.

Exactly reverting frag is a horrible idea unless the damage is waaaaay buffed.

Urvoth

Keep things as is

Feanor wrote: »

I’d take a complete Sorc overhaul rather, thank you very much.

That would be great. I wish ZOS would get rid of sorc pets and make them into a separate pet class or separate world/guild skill line and then replace them with a class spamable and more mobility/utility options. Pets tend to be either loved or hated, so why not just have them as a separate thing instead of wasting sorc ability slots on them?

Urvoth

Keep things as is

The only reason I'd prefer to have rune cage is because otherwise sorcs are completely countered by DKs running reflective scales/wings. If ZOS buffed frags or gave sorc a different way to counter DKs, then I'd rather have frags be the stun.

ak_pvp

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Urvoth wrote: »

The only reason I'd prefer to have rune cage is because otherwise sorcs are completely countered by DKs running reflective scales/wings. If ZOS buffed frags or gave sorc a different way to counter DKs, then I'd rather have frags be the stun.

This is incorrect. Only frags and LA is countered. Curse, fury, pulse, pets, streak, mines, all usable. Sorc is softcounter for DK with streak in roots and so much that ignores reflect. Both have a hard time killing eachother. DK getting through harness, and sorc putting pressure on block.

Vapirko

Keep things as is

ak_pvp wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

The only reason I'd prefer to have rune cage is because otherwise sorcs are completely countered by DKs running reflective scales/wings. If ZOS buffed frags or gave sorc a different way to counter DKs, then I'd rather have frags be the stun.

This is incorrect. Only frags and LA is countered. Curse, fury, pulse, pets, streak, mines, all usable. Sorc is softcounter for DK with streak in roots and so much that ignores reflect. Both have a hard time killing eachother. DK getting through harness, and sorc putting pressure on block.

Lol this might be true if sets like sloads and Zaan didn’t exist. If you’re not a pet sorc then pets are non existent. Streak is not really a viable damage skill due to the cost increase, and mines are avoidable and also force you into Zaan range. Force pulse might not even be slotted. So realistically you only have curse, fury and you resto heavy attack and then rune cage and meteor. And most DKs build tanky. Beating a mag DK armed with proc sets is no easy task.

Providing a mag DK wasn’t wearing Sloads and/or Zaan, and you were setting up specifically to duel then yes it could be a standoff.

But again, reverting mag sorcs back to a blockable, dodgeable, reflectable CC would send them to the trash bin these days.

IZZEFlameLash

Give frags CC, revert ruin

I think you mean Rune Cage. I mean, it does ruin some people but... well...

zyk

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Revert to 3.0. It wasn't the best patch but it was decent and everything since has been downhill.

ak_pvp

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Vapirko wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

The only reason I'd prefer to have rune cage is because otherwise sorcs are completely countered by DKs running reflective scales/wings. If ZOS buffed frags or gave sorc a different way to counter DKs, then I'd rather have frags be the stun.

This is incorrect. Only frags and LA is countered. Curse, fury, pulse, pets, streak, mines, all usable. Sorc is softcounter for DK with streak in roots and so much that ignores reflect. Both have a hard time killing eachother. DK getting through harness, and sorc putting pressure on block.

Lol this might be true if sets like sloads and Zaan didn’t exist. If you’re not a pet sorc then pets are non existent. Streak is not really a viable damage skill due to the cost increase, and mines are avoidable and also force you into Zaan range. Force pulse might not even be slotted. So realistically you only have curse, fury and you resto heavy attack and then rune cage and meteor. And most DKs build tanky. Beating a mag DK armed with proc sets is no easy task.

Providing a mag DK wasn’t wearing Sloads and/or Zaan, and you were setting up specifically to duel then yes it could be a standoff.

But again, reverting mag sorcs back to a blockable, dodgeable, reflectable CC would send them to the trash bin these days.

Sloads and zaan are crutches, expect nerfs to them. (Though IMO still zaan is easily counterable) Streak is usable as a non reflectable stun. DKs build squishy now too, so are easy to burst down but hard to pressure with their shields and dots.

The point goes back to that you only have 2 reflectable abilities, and reflect in its current state is pretty trash anyway. And why are you not slotting pulse? Its solid. On my builds, I can easily stalemate a sorc if using wings, but in the open wings may as well not exist.

Even during the slump of magsorcs last patch, they were easily a mid tier spec. They will never go down to trash tier, sorcs have a LOT, but are pigeonholed into a rather samey awful playstyle, which is why no one liked the last meta.

Minalan

Give frags CC, revert ruin

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

The only reason I'd prefer to have rune cage is because otherwise sorcs are completely countered by DKs running reflective scales/wings. If ZOS buffed frags or gave sorc a different way to counter DKs, then I'd rather have frags be the stun.

This is incorrect. Only frags and LA is countered. Curse, fury, pulse, pets, streak, mines, all usable. Sorc is softcounter for DK with streak in roots and so much that ignores reflect. Both have a hard time killing eachother. DK getting through harness, and sorc putting pressure on block.

Lol this might be true if sets like sloads and Zaan didn’t exist. If you’re not a pet sorc then pets are non existent. Streak is not really a viable damage skill due to the cost increase, and mines are avoidable and also force you into Zaan range. Force pulse might not even be slotted. So realistically you only have curse, fury and you resto heavy attack and then rune cage and meteor. And most DKs build tanky. Beating a mag DK armed with proc sets is no easy task.

Providing a mag DK wasn’t wearing Sloads and/or Zaan, and you were setting up specifically to duel then yes it could be a standoff.

But again, reverting mag sorcs back to a blockable, dodgeable, reflectable CC would send them to the trash bin these days.

Sloads and zaan are crutches, expect nerfs to them. (Though IMO still zaan is easily counterable) Streak is usable as a non reflectable stun. DKs build squishy now too, so are easy to burst down but hard to pressure with their shields and dots.

The point goes back to that you only have 2 reflectable abilities, and reflect in its current state is pretty trash anyway. And why are you not slotting pulse? Its solid. On my builds, I can easily stalemate a sorc if using wings, but in the open wings may as well not exist.

Even during the slump of magsorcs last patch, they were easily a mid tier spec. They will never go down to trash tier, sorcs have a LOT, but are pigeonholed into a rather samey awful playstyle, which is why no one liked the last meta.

If last patch was ‘mid-tier’ I’d really hate to see trash.

We have three main damage skills, wrath, curse, and frags (I’m not counting streak because the BoL morph doesn’t do damage). Everything else everyone has access to (reach, elemental weapon, force pulse), those are not class skills, changing them affects everyone.

Wrath does no damage above 20% health, and you’ll never kill a DK with just curse. And if you can’t CC a DK (because cage becomes blockable or some garbage) then you had better be able to streak out of his range constantly.

If you want to revert Cage, then at least let us streak without penalty if we hit someone. And increase the damage on frags considerably.

ak_pvp

Give frags CC, revert ruin

Minalan wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

The only reason I'd prefer to have rune cage is because otherwise sorcs are completely countered by DKs running reflective scales/wings. If ZOS buffed frags or gave sorc a different way to counter DKs, then I'd rather have frags be the stun.

This is incorrect. Only frags and LA is countered. Curse, fury, pulse, pets, streak, mines, all usable. Sorc is softcounter for DK with streak in roots and so much that ignores reflect. Both have a hard time killing eachother. DK getting through harness, and sorc putting pressure on block.

Lol this might be true if sets like sloads and Zaan didn’t exist. If you’re not a pet sorc then pets are non existent. Streak is not really a viable damage skill due to the cost increase, and mines are avoidable and also force you into Zaan range. Force pulse might not even be slotted. So realistically you only have curse, fury and you resto heavy attack and then rune cage and meteor. And most DKs build tanky. Beating a mag DK armed with proc sets is no easy task.

Providing a mag DK wasn’t wearing Sloads and/or Zaan, and you were setting up specifically to duel then yes it could be a standoff.

But again, reverting mag sorcs back to a blockable, dodgeable, reflectable CC would send them to the trash bin these days.

Sloads and zaan are crutches, expect nerfs to them. (Though IMO still zaan is easily counterable) Streak is usable as a non reflectable stun. DKs build squishy now too, so are easy to burst down but hard to pressure with their shields and dots.

The point goes back to that you only have 2 reflectable abilities, and reflect in its current state is pretty trash anyway. And why are you not slotting pulse? Its solid. On my builds, I can easily stalemate a sorc if using wings, but in the open wings may as well not exist.

Even during the slump of magsorcs last patch, they were easily a mid tier spec. They will never go down to trash tier, sorcs have a LOT, but are pigeonholed into a rather samey awful playstyle, which is why no one liked the last meta.

If last patch was ‘mid-tier’ I’d really hate to see trash.

We have three main damage skills, wrath, curse, and frags (I’m not counting streak because the BoL morph doesn’t do damage). Everything else everyone has access to (reach, elemental weapon, force pulse), those are not class skills, changing them affects everyone.

Wrath does no damage above 20% health, and you’ll never kill a DK with just curse. And if you can’t CC a DK (because cage becomes blockable or some garbage) then you had better be able to streak out of his range constantly.

If you want to revert Cage, then at least let us streak without penalty if we hit someone. And increase the damage on frags considerably.

If they were trash tier, they wouldn't be ran like a lot of the stam specs weren't, but even last patch sorcs were popular. I'm not against adding a little bit of pressure to sorcs, or buffing frags, but adding an incredibly overpowered ability to guarantee the hit of a burst is never good design.

Saying that that sorc deserves a counterless CC because its mildly countered by a weak defense is like saying my DK deserves unpurgable dots because of purge. It doesn't. Its not even like DK or block builds counters sorc any other way, Also, if you want strong pressure vs DK, run a pet build.