[Math] Sload's vs. Master's Dual-wield — a perspective on balance

TheYKcid · June 2018

A couple days ago, I ran a poll asking people whether they felt two controversial sets—Sload's, and the Master's Dual-Wield—were overperforming (link to poll).
There were 42 respondents at the time of writing this post, and equal proportions fell into 3 categories:

Note: 12 respondents (29%) also felt that both sets were overperforming

The reason I wanted to make this comparison is to help give perspective on the sheer amount of DPS that the Sload's set provides. Many forumers have the notion that Sload's is only good in niche scenarios—keeping Nightblades out of cloak, bypassing stacked shields, or Xv1, being some examples. In reality, Sload's does an absurd amount of single-target damage even in a 1v1 fight against any class.

I picked Master's DW as a benchmark for comparison because it's inarguably a strong set—it's a staple on 4 out of the 5 Stam classes, and has also generated plenty of debate/complaints on the forums (indeed, one-third of poll respondents felt it was overperforming). Additionally, the nature of the damage it provides—DoT pressure that bypasses certain kinds of mitigation—is similar to Sload's.

So without further ado, let's take a detailed look at the numbers!

TheYKcid · June 2018

Sload's is easy to account for. Being Oblivion damage, it always ticks for 853 damage per second, regardless of any mitigation/modifiers from you or your target.

Master's DW, on the other hand, is a little trickier. The set itself adds 1500 raw damage to every DoT tick of the Twin Slashes skill—which only ticks once every two seconds, therefore this is effectively 750 DPS. And then you have Battlespirit, which halves this again to 375 DPS.

Also, while bleeds ignore armor resistances, they are still affected by variables such as %-based buffs/debuffs, critical modifiers, and CP. To account for all of these, I made an excel calculator that anyone can access at the following link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ybBDgB2Gzt0GJBysvycM-iWIgdEe8sEce89kR08uQtI/edit?usp=sharing

Notes on using the calculator:

The file is read-only. For personal use, you'll have to download it or copy it to your own Google drive
Only fill-in the parameters under "Your stats" and "Target's stats", the calculator will do the rest
Percentage values must be converted to decimals
To simulate no-CP, input zero in the blue and red fields

Since I understand that not everyone wants to spend time tinkering with the calculator, here are some generalised datasets to demonstrate how Master's DW will perform in common scenarios.

Key:

The symbols B, M, V and P represent some common minor buffs you may encounter in combat. Several different combinations of these buffs are simulated.

nil: no buffs or debuffs
B: Berserk, minor (self buff)
M: Maim, minor (self debuff)
V: Vulnerability, minor (target debuff)
P: Protection, minor (target buff)

Scenario 1. Two max-CP players with similar CP distribution (attacker is non-NB/Templar with 50% crit rate, target has 7 impen & 40 points into resistant CP)

________________________________________________

Scenario 2. The same players in a no-CP environment

________________________________________________

Scenario 3. HEAVILY in favour of Master's DW (attacker is NB/Templar with 60% crit rate, target has half CP cf. scenario 1, and only 4 pieces of impen)

TheYKcid · June 2018

When you analyse the results obtained above, the disparity becomes quite shocking:

In a CP environment, between two similarly-built, max-CP players (ie. a fair fight) Sload's is dealing 102% to 140% more DPS than Master's Dual-Wield!

In no-CP, where bleeds become relatively stronger, this margin drops to 93-129%. And in the third scenario (a wild outlier where the target was exceptionally low on defenses, thus heavily favouring Master's DW), Sload's still outperforms by 47-74%.

Edit: As I did not include the unintended t=0 initial tick of Sload's, these values are valid for the Wolfhunter update.

To compound on top of this huge DPS superiority, Sload's also has a slew of ancillary benefits that Master's DW doesn't:

Softcounters Magsorcs (proc bypasses shields)
Hardcounters both types of Nightblade (breaks Cloak with a ~90% uptime) fixed as of Wolfhunter, thankfully
Can be procced from range, and by DoTs
Can be automatically re-applied even when target is out of range/behind LOS (due to sticky DoTs)
Far easier to integrate into a build (is crafted, not tied to a single ability/weapon-type)

Now I'm not strictly opposed to the existence of direct counters in this game. Pre-existing counters to shields (Shieldbreaker set) and Cloak (Piercing Mark, detect pots) were fine, in my opinion, because there was an opportunity cost to using them. A give-and-take, in other words.

However, Sload's is offering all of these utility benefits, and more, while still being among the highest—if not the highest—single target DPS set in PvP. Just look at how laughably weak it makes the Master's DW set look—and let's not forget that Master's DW is already an extremely strong set that many people find overpowered. This is objectively not balanced.

TheYKcid · June 2018

Hopefully the comparison between these two sets has given you more perspective into how wildly overtuned the numbers on Sload's are. If you encounter anyone who still believes the set is "fine as it is", feel free to direct them to this thread. Hard, tested data is always more convincing than opinion and anecdotes.

In any case, ZOS has already indicated that the set is being looked-into (in this post from Gina). Still, I hope the numerical data provided here will help influence the extent of the changes—I wouldn't want the nerf to be too lenient, but I also don't want it nerfed into complete uselessness.

Thanks for reading!

Sources/credits:

Damage calculation equations were obtained from the thread "Damage Mitigation: Explanation UPDATED FOR SUMMERSET!" by @paulsimonps.
In-game damage testing (to corroborate calculated values) was carried-out with my buddy @allahdine

TheYKcid · June 2018

EDIT, 6th July:

By popular demand (numerous people wanted Sload's compared with a 5pc set), here is a new DPS calculator for Viper's Sting:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TfyCmjIFksysDkNlEV_mx3WxbkYI07HOO6b85Y_qs4Q/edit?usp=sharing

Example data & analysis:

Use the same way as the previous one, except instead of specifying values for crit modifiers, you now input resistance/penetration instead.

Scenario 1 — cp750, Major Fracture + 35 pts Piercing, light armor target:

________________________________________________

Scenario 2 — same as above, heavy armor target:

________________________________________________

Scenario 3 — Attacker has no Fracture, heavy armor target with Bloodspawn and S&B:

________________________________________________

Sload's (853 DPS) is still overperforming considerably.

Viper rapidly falls-off the more armor your target has (or conversely, the less penetration you have). Sload's faces no such concern since it bypasses all mitigation anyway.

And once again, bear in mind that this only accounts for raw damage output. Sload's provides a long list of additional benefits that other sets don't.

Feanor · June 2018

Very good read. Have an insightful. I also think though you won’t convince anyone who defends the set unfortunately because they love it for the very reason of being so strong. Also, we need another crutch meme by @King_Thelon in here.

Checkmath · June 2018

https://memecrunch.com/meme/9CNE3/crutch-jokes/image.jpg?w=400&c=1

Edit: wow didnt even see the spelling in the picture, before i posted the link...

Exodium · June 2018

Thanks so much for this analysis. Anyone who thinks master dw is overperforming has no idea what they're talking about. As u said in your post, master dw bleeds are countered by so many things (shields being the main ones), whereas sloads is not.

Also, master dw REQUIRES ONE to complete one of the more difficult 4 man content in the game. Heck, I expect it to be strong after farming VDSA runs (1 hour each) for it.

Those asking for a nerf for master dw and not sloads may as well be thumbless morons running heavy armour sword and board builds who saw a 3k rending slash tick in their death recap.

/nerfsloads.

Blobsky · June 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

[Reserved]

Dont forget that Sloads ticks 7 times not 6 too (I didnt read it all, but it affects dps on target)

Vapirko · June 2018

Not that it matters now, since Sloads is being nerfed (well assuming they really do nerf it and don’t go with some non stacking pseudo nerf), but the people defending it were never interested in the facts. Like flat earthers they were simply interested in entertaining their own imaginations that somehow they were right and everyone else was delusional.

WaltherCarraway · June 2018

Good thing is they will change it in next patch. Insightful

edit: in case you don't know yet:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5246089#Comment_5246089

WillhelmBlack · June 2018

People who complain about bleeds are usually the type wearing Sloads. You can craft Sloads, you have to put a little effort in for Master weapons and they don't like that, effort. Instead of fine tuning or min/maxing their builds or getting good, crying on the forums is way easier.

Bleeds are strong.

Sloads is imbalanced. Cause any damage for a permanent unmitigated DOT, yeah.

FloppyTouch · June 2018

I'm fine with zos making another useless crafted set. they can add it to the pile of crafted sets no one uses after they nerf it. we can finally can go back to crying about sorcs and nb. GG

Feanor · June 2018

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I'm fine with zos making another useless crafted set. they can add it to the pile of crafted sets no one uses after they nerf it. we can finally can go back to crying about sorcs and nb. GG

I don’t understand that mindset. Fighting fire with fire is a tactic that seldom makes sense.

FloppyTouch · June 2018

Feanor wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I'm fine with zos making another useless crafted set. they can add it to the pile of crafted sets no one uses after they nerf it. we can finally can go back to crying about sorcs and nb. GG

I don’t understand that mindset. Fighting fire with fire is a tactic that seldom makes sense.

I'm not fighting at all just sick of reading about sloads on the forums. But you know the second sloads is fixed it's back to the nerf nb sorc threads. Just pointing out the obvious

Feanor · June 2018

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I'm fine with zos making another useless crafted set. they can add it to the pile of crafted sets no one uses after they nerf it. we can finally can go back to crying about sorcs and nb. GG

I don’t understand that mindset. Fighting fire with fire is a tactic that seldom makes sense.

I'm not fighting at all just sick of reading about sloads on the forums. But you know the second sloads is fixed it's back to the nerf nb sorc threads. Just pointing out the obvious

I’d like another fix for Sload’s. The set should live up to it’s name and turn everyone into a Sload upon equipping it. At least you’d know whom to target first then.

Sun7dance · June 2018

But why Master DW + Agility and not 5p. Blooddrinker?

For example you play DW axes and 2handed axe with gapcloser:

With Blooddrinker you can put 3 times bleeding (plus maybe the 2handed skill) on your target and all of them benefit from the bonus.
With Master DW and Agility you only increase Blood Craze.

CyrusArya · June 2018

What really grinds my gears is that the player base CALLED it. And exactly what was predicted came true. Yet all the analysis fell on deaf ears. So my question to the devs is, what is the point of the pts if you are going to literally just ignore all feedback and then have to backtrack three months later?

Really not trying to be rude or dismissive but as patrons of the product, many of us who spend good money on this game, I really do believe we deserve better service. I know plenty of people who have literally quit over how lame Bummerset is. Hopefully the class representative program is a step in the right direction and their input is taken seriously.

TheYKcid · June 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

But why Master DW + Agility and not 5p. Blooddrinker?

For example you play DW axes and 2handed axe with gapcloser:

With Blooddrinker you can put 3 times bleeding (plus maybe the 2handed skill) on your target and all of them benefit from the bonus.
With Master DW and Agility you only increase Blood Craze.

Blooddrinker isn't all that good, really. Master's DW adds around 75-85% extra DPS to your Rending DoT. That's better than an additional 20% to three dots, two of which won't have reliable uptime (the order of calculations also makes this 20% slightly less in reality). You also need to double-bar BD, whereas you can effectively single-bar Master's. 2-4pc bonuses on BD are pretty bad too, I'd take Agi any day.

It's the meta choice for a good reason. And yet, it still does something like half the DPS of Sload's...

MinarasLaure · June 2018

Maybe devs thought that being cleanse a skill open to any class, the set wouldn't be that bad.
I don't know, I play as a magicka healer, so cleanse is always on my bar, but really, the only real problem I see with sloads is that it stacks.

Sun7dance · June 2018

You can't mitigate the extra Damage of Master's DW?

TheYKcid · June 2018

Sun7dance wrote: »

You can't mitigate the extra Damage of Master's DW?

What I meant was that the damage bonus from Master's is base damage, which benefits from any modifiers downstream in the order of calculations. The 20% from BD is itself a modifier, so it stacks additively (and thus diminishingly) with your other modifiers.

WillhelmBlack · June 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

What really grinds my gears is that the player base CALLED it. And exactly what was predicted came true. Yet all the analysis fell on deaf ears. So my question to the devs is, what is the point of the pts if you are going to literally just ignore all feedback and then have to backtrack three months later?

Really not trying to be rude or dismissive but as patrons of the product, many of us who spend good money on this game, I really do believe we deserve better service. I know plenty of people who have literally quit over how lame Bummerset is. Hopefully the class representative program is a step in the right direction and their input is taken seriously.

I think ZOS were seeing how much QQ/hype they got in PTS. If it's a lot, then that's good in their eyes. It means they've created a must have set like Zaan and the majority of the PvP player base will also go buy the DLC. They could easily bring down the damage or proc condition but then they'd be losing out money. It's gonna get nerfed, Zaan too but only after they've got your money.

Dreyloch · June 2018

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

What really grinds my gears is that the player base CALLED it. And exactly what was predicted came true. Yet all the analysis fell on deaf ears. So my question to the devs is, what is the point of the pts if you are going to literally just ignore all feedback and then have to backtrack three months later?

Really not trying to be rude or dismissive but as patrons of the product, many of us who spend good money on this game, I really do believe we deserve better service. I know plenty of people who have literally quit over how lame Bummerset is. Hopefully the class representative program is a step in the right direction and their input is taken seriously.

I think ZOS were seeing how much QQ/hype they got in PTS. If it's a lot, then that's good in their eyes. It means they've created a must have set like Zaan and the majority of the PvP player base will also go buy the DLC. They could easily bring down the damage or proc condition but then they'd be losing out money. It's gonna get nerfed, Zaan too but only after they've got your money.

Don't think the set gear was what drove a good many of the PvP'ers to buy Summerset. I think it was more the Jewelry crafting and even thought it's a terrible grind, you have to craft, you have to do dungeons and trials to get it right...The idea of MAKING your own set jewelry and changing traits on otherwise useless other sets? That's what drove many to buy it.

Anastian · June 2018

Thank you very much for the thread!

WillhelmBlack · June 2018

Dreyloch wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

What really grinds my gears is that the player base CALLED it. And exactly what was predicted came true. Yet all the analysis fell on deaf ears. So my question to the devs is, what is the point of the pts if you are going to literally just ignore all feedback and then have to backtrack three months later?

Really not trying to be rude or dismissive but as patrons of the product, many of us who spend good money on this game, I really do believe we deserve better service. I know plenty of people who have literally quit over how lame Bummerset is. Hopefully the class representative program is a step in the right direction and their input is taken seriously.

I think ZOS were seeing how much QQ/hype they got in PTS. If it's a lot, then that's good in their eyes. It means they've created a must have set like Zaan and the majority of the PvP player base will also go buy the DLC. They could easily bring down the damage or proc condition but then they'd be losing out money. It's gonna get nerfed, Zaan too but only after they've got your money.

Don't think the set gear was what drove a good many of the PvP'ers to buy Summerset. I think it was more the Jewelry crafting and even thought it's a terrible grind, you have to craft, you have to do dungeons and trials to get it right...The idea of MAKING your own set jewelry and changing traits on otherwise useless other sets? That's what drove many to buy it.

You'd be surprised how many bought the DLC after reading what Sloads can do in PvP.

TheYKcid · June 2018

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

What really grinds my gears is that the player base CALLED it. And exactly what was predicted came true. Yet all the analysis fell on deaf ears. So my question to the devs is, what is the point of the pts if you are going to literally just ignore all feedback and then have to backtrack three months later?

Really not trying to be rude or dismissive but as patrons of the product, many of us who spend good money on this game, I really do believe we deserve better service. I know plenty of people who have literally quit over how lame Bummerset is. Hopefully the class representative program is a step in the right direction and their input is taken seriously.

I think ZOS were seeing how much QQ/hype they got in PTS. If it's a lot, then that's good in their eyes. It means they've created a must have set like Zaan and the majority of the PvP player base will also go buy the DLC. They could easily bring down the damage or proc condition but then they'd be losing out money. It's gonna get nerfed, Zaan too but only after they've got your money.

TBH I feel a lot of feedback during PTS cycles is simply glossed over.

The many concerns raised over the Rune Cage buffs is one example. And here is a gamebreaking bug that was reported during week 3 of the PTS, which not only made it to live, but is still in the game as of today with no acknowledgement.

As far as I recall, there were only 3 actual balance adjustments made during the entire Summerset PTS:

Constantly changing the values on light/heavy attacks
Nerfing Bloodthirsty trait
Nerfing Mechanical Acuity

heng14rwb17_ESO · June 2018

GO SLOAD OR GO CRY !

Girl_Number8 · June 2018

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I'm fine with zos making another useless crafted set. they can add it to the pile of crafted sets no one uses after they nerf it. we can finally can go back to crying about sorcs and nb. GG

I hope they offer a new class soon that is a {socry/nightblade} called Ka-cheese~ Then no more arguing to be had

The_Protagonist · June 2018

Using bleeds as a benchmark to check oblivion damage is quite insightful. Well done.

mursie · July 2018

so - i can't help but feel that the main take away from this thread is that I NEED to be wearing sloads WITH my master's dual wield in order to really dominate people.

appreciate the tip!