Discussion on DPS

Cheetac19 · June 2018

Hey guys! I know this question has been done to death, but I'm asking for real numbers here, as the response is always vague.

I'm sort of a perfectionist. I hate it. I want to make characters the races I want to play, but always end up deleting for the meta.

So. If anyone can crunch the numbers, how much of a difference does a character outside of the meta do? My example is a Templar I'm wanting to make. I would much rather play a Magicka dps Templar but I am kinda tired of Altmer and really want to make a Bosmer.

What is the rough estimate of the damage hit I would take? Would I struggle with resources? I really wish they would do away with racial passives, at least the current way. Make a few stamina, magicka, and health sets that we can choose from.

getemshauna · June 2018

The difference is monstrous. If you will create Breton magsorc instead of altmer, you won't be able to defeat mudcrab in a duel.
No, not really. It's less than 4% damage difference, minmaxing and math is for people who want to bring possibly most impact in group content, where only score matters. If you follow the mechanics and you're consistent with your dps and progressing you can easily complete every content in the game, even hardest of hardmodes. More important than race chose is having good rotation, and optimised group. But if you don't aim for competetive raiding what requires 15h/week raiding with your group, as long as your race gives you bonus to your playstyle, that's enough.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

.The difference is monstrous

No, it is not, especially on a temp where the +4% elemental damage counts for way less because most of temps damage is magic damage. Unless you mean 3-7% is "monstrous".

Rotation and skill means way more then racials. You need to be in the top 10% of dps for the extra stuff from racials to really matter.

Edit: need to read the rest of a post before I react, @gethemshauna is right on.

Cheetac19 · June 2018

I'm glad to hear that. I don't think I'll be too competitive any time soon, I just don't have the time.
I'm kinda worried about resources as well tbh. Take for example the Redguard and the Bosmer. The Bosmer as insane Stam regen, and the Redguard has the boost I think and the stam regen upon damage. It seems if someone made say, a Breton stam character they would lose a ton of resources. Is it crippling?
If anyone has an out of meta charry I would love some input

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

So here is the thing, that "insane" regen you talk about with the wood elf, 21%, it really is not much, in real terms, is around 100-200 more regen. The redgaurd passive is equal to 317 regen. Plus you get a 9% passive regen as well, which would be around 50 to 80 regen by itself. And here is the kicker, your poison/disease enchant on your weapon can proc the redgaurd passive from a distance, if you choose to be a bow/bow or just are not able to get in close for some reason, so there is really no reason to ever choose wood elf for the regen passive. Cuteness factor, yes though.

The way mag/Stam regen works in this game makes it so that if you stack more sources, the less impactful they become. So do no worry about 9% from the redgaurd or high elf.

Cheetac19 · June 2018

Thanks so much, I really appreciate the number breakdown. It sounds much smaller when put like that instead of saying 21%

I appreciate the answers guys

hopefully I'll be more inclined to make charrys more to my liking than just following the meta.

Valkysas154 · June 2018

I would not worry about it much i changed my wood elf to a high elf to test this
the 9% manga regen gave me a extra 70regen 70..

Switched back to a wood elf the only thing that made a ok difference was the extra magica
basically when my wood elf would have 32k mana the high elf would have about 34kmana not that big of a deal but that extra 2K could go to health enchants or regen so so

So if you are a min maxer that wants to be on top of the leader boards it might matter if not who cares play the race/class you like

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2018

I recently switched my main from a Breton Templar to a High Elf in order to maximize my damage.

Now I really miss the extra resistances.

The part of min maxing that people always forget about is surviving to actually do that slight amount of more damage.

reprosal · June 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

So here is the thing, that "insane" regen you talk about with the wood elf, 21%, it really is not much, in real terms, is around 100-200 more regen. The redgaurd passive is equal to 317 regen. Plus you get a 9% passive regen as well, which would be around 50 to 80 regen by itself. And here is the kicker, your poison/disease enchant on your weapon can proc the redgaurd passive from a distance, if you choose to be a bow/bow or just are not able to get in close for some reason, so there is really no reason to ever choose wood elf for the regen passive. Cuteness factor, yes though.

The way mag/Stam regen works in this game makes it so that if you stack more sources, the less impactful they become. So do no worry about 9% from the redgaurd or high elf.

What??? No. The more max mag/stam you have the more damage you will do. It is not a diminishing return... the more you stack the more you will get from your undaunted passive etc.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2018

reprosal wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

So here is the thing, that "insane" regen you talk about with the wood elf, 21%, it really is not much, in real terms, is around 100-200 more regen. The redgaurd passive is equal to 317 regen. Plus you get a 9% passive regen as well, which would be around 50 to 80 regen by itself. And here is the kicker, your poison/disease enchant on your weapon can proc the redgaurd passive from a distance, if you choose to be a bow/bow or just are not able to get in close for some reason, so there is really no reason to ever choose wood elf for the regen passive. Cuteness factor, yes though.

The way mag/Stam regen works in this game makes it so that if you stack more sources, the less impactful they become. So do no worry about 9% from the redgaurd or high elf.

What??? No. The more max mag/stam you have the more damage you will do. It is not a diminishing return... the more you stack the more you will get from your undaunted passive etc.

There is in a sense. 9% more max stat =/= 9% more damage dealt.

On a high stat build, the stat will contribute about 2/3rd's of the damage, SD/WD the other 1/3rd.

So that 9% bonus to stat works out to more like 6% more damage. (And that's if the passive difference is the full 9%, not, say Altmer vs Dunmer)

So you're looking at another 2400 DPS if you're already hitting 40k. 1800 if you're hitting 30k.

Also, you can effectively disregard Undaunted Mettle in regard to racial differences. Yeah, you'll get an extra 6% of that 10%, which means an additional 0.6% stat if you're running 5/1/1. With 40k stat, Mettle gives you another 240 stat...not enough to bother factoring in. (1 free small glyph)

Min/max is min/max, and yet it makes a difference, but if you can sustain, it's not as grand as some would have you believe.

OP, look directly at the passives, figure out the difference (mathematically), then use that to determine the rough difference between two races in that regard using the 66% stat, 33% Weapon/Spell Damage ratio above.

For things like +Shock/Magic/Poison damage, do a quick X-out-of-10 in your slotted skills for however many of that type of damage you have and you'll get an idea from there. For instance, it's unlikely you'll run a build with 100% shock damage, so you won't actually see a full 4% DPS (last passive) increase by picking Altmer over another class.

10% regen bonus vs another race means you'll sustain longer, but not 10% longer.

It will work out to be less than the tooltip, because it's only going to increase your regen proper, not your effective regen (Actual regen + potion return converted to regen equivalent + HA regen equivalent + other sources regen equivalent.)

Duration you can fight being Stat / (Average cast cost - average effective regen)

*(Redguard getting the effective regen bonus of ~316 from Adrenaline Rush being significantly more than the % bonus from Exhilaration)

Hope that helps. (This is for quick, rough calc comparison's sake only, but it will give you an idea.)

You can also bear in mind that some racial bonuses mean freeing up CP's you'd have to place in the other race. That can be used to compensate and even things out.

EDIT:Correction for Undaunted Mettle being additive, not multiplicative.
Explained the regen effect in a bit more detail.

reprosal · June 2018

I never stated that it is a flat % damage increase. Just that it is an increase and his point was that increasing it basically does nothing

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

reprosal wrote: »

I never stated that it is a flat % damage increase. Just that it is an increase and his point was that increasing it basically does nothing

I am taking about regen in the post you say I said nothing about damage. Not sure what you are screeching about. I didn't say "diminishing returns". I said "less impactful".

On max stats though, Do you understand even how the game calculates it? They are all additive, except the 20% from champion points, which is multiplicative with the base, then all other percentage amps are on top of that. So it looks like this-

((Base stats * cp)* all other percentage amps added together.)

So let's make up some numbers, easy ones for you, @reprosal, to understand.

Let's start with this-
((10,000*1.2)*1.25) = 15,000

Then add 8% to the second part, because all other percentage amps are additive remember-

((10,000*1.2)*1.33) = 15960

Now as you can see, you don't actually get a 8% increase, you get a 6.4% as 15960/15000 is 1.064. this is what I mean by the more you stack percentage amps, the less impactful they are. Do you understand @reprosal? Or do you just want to keep reeeeeeing?

This is the way pretty much all the percentage amps work in the game by the way.

Also, you can effectively disregard Undaunted Mettle in regard to racial differences. Yeah, you'll get an extra 6% of that 10%, which means an additional 0.6% stat if you're running 5/1/1. With 40k stat, Mettle gives you another 240 stat...not enough to bother factoring in. (1 free small glyph)

This is wrong. You do not get 6% of 10%. Not sure where you got that idea. You get 16%. But going from 10% to 16% is 110% to 116%, a 5.45% increase.

10% regen bonus vs another race means you'll sustain 10% longer. In a 10 minute fight, that's another minute.

This is also wrong. If you are talking about the regen you get from a racial, you will not sustain the same percentage of the racial. I have explained this several times now. The percentage you see is added to the many other, with regen, the armor passives and champion point nodes, so you are always effectively getting less.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Also, you can effectively disregard Undaunted Mettle in regard to racial differences. Yeah, you'll get an extra 6% of that 10%, which means an additional 0.6% stat if you're running 5/1/1. With 40k stat, Mettle gives you another 240 stat...not enough to bother factoring in. (1 free small glyph)

This is wrong. You do not get 6% of 10%. Not sure where you got that idea. You get 16%. But going from 10% to 16% is 110% to 116%, a 5.45% increase.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , my example is under the premise that Undaunted Mettle is going to be present in either case, so I'm referring only to the portion that it adds on top of the racial difference.

I was thinking they were multiplicative vs additive. Original response will be revised.

So all other things being equal, going from a maximum modifier (Aegis, Inner, MG passive, Mettle, Ancient Grace, including the racial) 1.35 to removing only the racial 1.25 ends up being an 8% difference on the final value (since no one is going to run with zero other modifiers, you're never going to get full tooltip.)

10% regen bonus vs another race means you'll sustain 10% longer. In a 10 minute fight, that's another minute.

This is also wrong. If you are talking about the regen you get from a racial, you will not sustain the same percentage of the racial. I have explained this several times now. The percentage you see is added to the many other, with regen, the armor passives and champion point nodes, so you are always effectively getting less.

While I agree, and the methods I'm describing are far from exact, it's intended to be a quick, rough approximation for comparison's sake only. (Much like saying 4% cost reduction can be approximated to ~4% increased stat at zero redux.)

It will get you in the ballpark enough to be able to help make the racial choice. I compare sets in a similar fashion, eliminating common factors and getting a quick approximation of the difference it will provide.

Maybe it's not a preferred method, but I think it will provide enough of an idea to help one decide if they're not wanting to go knee deep into the full formula. That's all I'm going for here.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

@Merlin13KAGL thing is, you say something like "you'll sustain 10% longer", this is just factually wrong. Most DPS run with the bare minimum of regen. That is either no extra regen from sets (514) or dubious/witchmothers (514+319). That extra 9% regen is only 49 extra regen in the first case and 75 regen in the second. You are not lasting a whole nother minute on just regen from your racial.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2018

Fair enough - it will work out to be less than the tooltip, because it's only going to increase your regen proper, not your effective regen (Actual regen + potion return converted to regen equivalent + HA regen equivalent + other sources regen equivalent.)

Duration you can fight being Stat / (Average cast cost - average effective regen)

*(Redguard getting the effective regen bonus of ~316 from Adrenaline Rush being significantly more than the % bonus from Exhilaration)