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Alchemy - Minor Force & Minor Heroism
Urza1234
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I feel like adding these two buffs to alchemy would significantly round out a few builds, in two ways:
Firstly, there are very few sources of these two buffs, the two sources from skills are pretty much Stam only, the two sources from Sets are a synergy set and heavy armor with spell damage bonuses, which isnt really suited for anybody except for maybe a Magicka toon who manages to get the set on their jewelry.
Secondly, there are a number of classes that suffer because they already have great sources of both Major Brutality/Sorcery and Major Savagery/Prohecy, so they're either forced to deslot a great skill or waste their Pot slot.
MagDK - Already has Molten Armaments and Flames of Oblivion. They have to either not benefit from potions much or unslot one of two excellent skills. Alcast for instance has them running fighter's guild trap rather than Molten Armaments...
StamDK - Similar situation to MagDK, except that Alcast has them simply running Molten Armaments, a Magicka morph, I assume so that he could get Major Brutality from Pots. Molten Armaments is being slotted literally just for the HA damage.
MagSorc - Already has great sources of Major Sorcery & Prophect, but they're not slotting Power Surge because, once again, that would makes pots useless.
Magplar & Magblade - Are deslotting their sources Major Sorcery so that pots can have some use.
MagWarden - They are slotting both their sources of Major Sorcery & Prophecy, probably because this poor class has more buffs than damage skills. Pots are thus basically useless to them, maybe thats why they're having such problems in PVE. Alcast also has the poor buggers slotting Fighters Trap, wouldn't it be nice if they could get Minor Force from Pots instead.
StamWarden - In a very similar situation to MagWarden, pots are pretty much useless on this class
So... Stamsorc, Stamplar, and Stamblade are the 3 out of 10 classes who really benefit from pots. The other 7 classes may or may not be doing well, but they're forced into really awkward builds because they'd be otherwise wasting their Pot slot. Even for the builds who work well in the current meta it would be nice for them to have the option of more build variety without slotting non-optimal skills. Its really sad to see a mag character slotting Fighter Trap just because a half-wasted slot is better than a completely wasted slot.
Adding accessible sources of Minor Force and Minor Heroism would be idiomatically killing two birds with one stone. Tons of classes without optimal access to either of those buffs would no longer have that problem, and tons of classes who are forced to slot non-optimal skills to avoid wasting their Pot slot would no longer have to do so.
Edited by Urza1234 on December 11, 2017 6:42PM Firstly, there are very few sources of these two buffs, the two sources from skills are pretty much Stam only, the two sources from Sets are a synergy set and heavy armor with spell damage bonuses, which isnt really suited for anybody except for maybe a Magicka toon who manages to get the set on their jewelry.
Secondly, there are a number of classes that suffer because they already have great sources of both Major Brutality/Sorcery and Major Savagery/Prohecy, so they're either forced to deslot a great skill or waste their Pot slot.
MagDK - Already has Molten Armaments and Flames of Oblivion. They have to either not benefit from potions much or unslot one of two excellent skills. Alcast for instance has them running fighter's guild trap rather than Molten Armaments...
StamDK - Similar situation to MagDK, except that Alcast has them simply running Molten Armaments, a Magicka morph, I assume so that he could get Major Brutality from Pots. Molten Armaments is being slotted literally just for the HA damage.
MagSorc - Already has great sources of Major Sorcery & Prophect, but they're not slotting Power Surge because, once again, that would makes pots useless.
Magplar & Magblade - Are deslotting their sources Major Sorcery so that pots can have some use.
MagWarden - They are slotting both their sources of Major Sorcery & Prophecy, probably because this poor class has more buffs than damage skills. Pots are thus basically useless to them, maybe thats why they're having such problems in PVE. Alcast also has the poor buggers slotting Fighters Trap, wouldn't it be nice if they could get Minor Force from Pots instead.
StamWarden - In a very similar situation to MagWarden, pots are pretty much useless on this class
So... Stamsorc, Stamplar, and Stamblade are the 3 out of 10 classes who really benefit from pots. The other 7 classes may or may not be doing well, but they're forced into really awkward builds because they'd be otherwise wasting their Pot slot. Even for the builds who work well in the current meta it would be nice for them to have the option of more build variety without slotting non-optimal skills. Its really sad to see a mag character slotting Fighter Trap just because a half-wasted slot is better than a completely wasted slot.
Adding accessible sources of Minor Force and Minor Heroism would be idiomatically killing two birds with one stone. Tons of classes without optimal access to either of those buffs would no longer have that problem, and tons of classes who are forced to slot non-optimal skills to avoid wasting their Pot slot would no longer have to do so.
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Robo_Hobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭That would be nice. Using the trap is kind of tedious anyway, it'd be great if I could keep critical surge on my backbar even for pure glass cannon DPS rotations, and get minor force + major savagery from potion.
But then again also sounds a lil too convenient I guess, not that I'm against it. :P0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Does every class and build need access to every buff and debuff? If you give magblades and magsorcs easy access to Minor Force, from range, that's an absolutely massive DPS boost to builds that are already great.
Also, Twilight Remedy (a light armor set) grants Minor Force to people who pop your synergies, and you can run that on a healer (as an alternative to Worm or Mending) or on a tank (with jewelry + S&B).
And as far as end-game oriented builds go ...
* Sorcs don't run generally run Power Surge because it's a DPS loss to do so.
* StamDKs use Molten Armaments because they use heavy attack builds ... 40% increased damage is a large buff.
* Don't understand your magblade point at all; the only Major Sorcery in the magblade kit is Sap Essence which isn't really used in end game builds.
I don't see how this is limiting in any way. IMO you're making backwards assumptions. People aren't avoiding skills just so they can get the full benefit of a pot, they're creating more optimal builds because they're already getting those buffs from pots.Edited by LiquidPony on December 9, 2017 10:18PM4 -
Urza1234✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Does every class and build need access to every buff and debuff? If you give magblades and magsorcs easy access to Minor Force, from range, that's an absolutely massive DPS boost to builds that are already great.
Also, Twilight Remedy (a light armor set) grants Minor Force to people who pop your synergies, and you can run that on a healer (as an alternative to Worm or Mending) or on a tank (with jewelry + S&B).
And as far as end-game oriented builds go ...
* Sorcs don't run generally run Power Surge because it's a DPS loss to do so.
* StamDKs use Molten Armaments because they use heavy attack builds ... 40% increased damage is a large buff.
* Don't understand your magblade point at all; the only Major Sorcery in the magblade kit is Sap Essence which isn't really used in end game builds.
I don't see how this is limiting in any way. IMO you're making backwards assumptions. People aren't avoiding skills just so they can get the full benefit of a pot, they're creating more optimal builds because they're already getting those buffs from pots.
Every suggestion ever:
"Hey, I think the game could benefit in these ways and here's how and why"
Someone's inevitable and unhelpful response:
"But that would change the meta, which I will now restate for everyone's benefit like a schoolroom recitation."LiquidPony wrote: »I don't see how this is limiting in any way. IMO you're making backwards assumptions. People aren't avoiding skills just so they can get the full benefit of a pot, they're creating more optimal builds because they're already getting those buffs from pots.Adding accessible sources of Minor Force and Minor Heroism would be idiomatically killing two birds with one stone. Tons of classes without optimal access to either of those buffs would no longer have that problem, and tons of classes who are forced to slot non-optimal skills to avoid wasting their Pot slot would no longer have to do so.
Whether you look at it backwards or forwards, the Pot slot is essentially a buff slot, but there arent very many useful buffs you can actually get from pots. That means that classes are slotting skills that have extremely marginal utility for them outside a buff, like a MagSorc slotting FighterTrap. Whereas if the Pot slot were less limited then those classes could slot their own class skills that have more non-buff utility for them, ie Power Surge. (and, more importantly in my opinion, being able to slot a skill because of its utility rather than its buff is a lot more interesting gameplay)
No, I dont care that this would buff Sorc, and neither should anyone else. The concept is a quality of life change that would happen to buff sorc along with all the other Mag specs and a few Stam as well. Any time any change is made to any class or skill its a buff or nerf to someone somewhere with frequently broader than intended implications. This does not mean that the game should never be changed. As you mention Sorc is already overperforming, if they would still overperform after such a change then no net harm done. Balancing Sorc is its own independent issue, this is not a buff/nerf sorc thread.
Edited by Urza1234 on December 9, 2017 11:22PM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Does every class and build need access to every buff and debuff? If you give magblades and magsorcs easy access to Minor Force, from range, that's an absolutely massive DPS boost to builds that are already great.
Also, Twilight Remedy (a light armor set) grants Minor Force to people who pop your synergies, and you can run that on a healer (as an alternative to Worm or Mending) or on a tank (with jewelry + S&B).
And as far as end-game oriented builds go ...
* Sorcs don't run generally run Power Surge because it's a DPS loss to do so.
* StamDKs use Molten Armaments because they use heavy attack builds ... 40% increased damage is a large buff.
* Don't understand your magblade point at all; the only Major Sorcery in the magblade kit is Sap Essence which isn't really used in end game builds.
I don't see how this is limiting in any way. IMO you're making backwards assumptions. People aren't avoiding skills just so they can get the full benefit of a pot, they're creating more optimal builds because they're already getting those buffs from pots.
Every suggestion ever:
"Hey, I think the game could benefit in these ways and here's how and why"
Someone's inevitable and unhelpful response:
"But that would change the meta, which I will now restate for everyone's benefit like a schoolroom recitation."LiquidPony wrote: »I don't see how this is limiting in any way. IMO you're making backwards assumptions. People aren't avoiding skills just so they can get the full benefit of a pot, they're creating more optimal builds because they're already getting those buffs from pots.Adding accessible sources of Minor Force and Minor Heroism would be idiomatically killing two birds with one stone. Tons of classes without optimal access to either of those buffs would no longer have that problem, and tons of classes who are forced to slot non-optimal skills to avoid wasting their Pot slot would no longer have to do so.
Whether you look at it backwards or forwards, the Pot slot is essentially a buff slot, but there arent very many useful buffs you can actually get from pots. That means that classes are slotting skills that have extremely marginal utility for them outside a buff, like a MagSorc slotting FighterTrap. Whereas if the Pot slot were less limited then those classes could slot their own class skills that have more non-buff utility for them, ie Power Surge. (and, more importantly in my opinion, being able to slot a skill because of its utility rather than its buff is a lot more interesting gameplay)
No, I dont care that this would buff Sorc, and neither should anyone else. The concept is a quality of life change that would happen to buff sorc along with all the other Mag specs and a few Stam as well. Any time any change is made to any class or skill its a buff or nerf to someone somewhere with frequently broader than intended implications. This does not mean that the game should never be changed. As you mention Sorc is already overperforming, if they would still overperform after such a change then no net harm done. Balancing Sorc is its own independent issue, this is not a buff/nerf sorc thread.
Your point didn't go over my head. I just think it's ignorant. You've made a bunch of statements about why end game PvE builds are constructed how they are, but you don't appear to actually understand why. You cited a bunch of Alcast Trials builds and then demonstrated that you don't actually know how or why those builds work. I tried to clarify that for you, which you ignored.
Do you have a lot of experience raiding with a magDK or stamDK or magblade or magsorc? Sure doesn't seem like it.
Let me try again:
Alcast's magDK build doesn't use Molten Armaments because it is not a heavy attack build. There's no point. You can get Major Sorcery elsewhere, and you're playing in melee range with Flame Lash so it makes perfect sense to use Rearming Trap (and melee magicka builds have used trap for ages ... we see it on melee magblades and magplars as well).
StamDK builds use Molten Armaments because they are heavy attack builds. You get your Major Brutality from a pot, thus freeing you to take advantage of a massive boost to heavy attacks.
Magsorcs don't use Power Surge (outside of possibly vMoL back yard, and up top on Pinnacle Factotum) because there's no point. We have healers. Casting Power Surge would be a DPS loss versus another cast of Force Pulse/Crushing Shock.
Magblades only have one class skill that grants Major Prophecy (Sap Essence). That skill is not really used in end game PvE, because magblades already have a ton of AoE with Blockade + Twisting Path + Lightning heavies + Destro ulti. It's a great skill for dungeons or other content where optimizing DPS is unnecessary, though, because you can slot it and use trash pots (just like stamblades with Power Extraction or sorcs with Surge).
You keep making these statements that "X build is unslotting Y skill just so they can get a benefit from pots," and it's wrong, wrong, wrong. You even admitted that you were making assumptions about the rationale behind those skill choices, and I'm here to tell you that those assumptions are wrong.0 -
Mazbt✭✭✭✭I would only be okay with those skills as potions if those buffs specifically had a very small duration...100% uptime on those buffs by just solely chugging a pot would be extremely OP. I would rather builds get a little unique flavour through the poisons actually. The duration are usually really short unless you want to waste a 5 piece to increase the duration (and still kind of short), and a cool down with small chance to proc.Edited by Mazbt on December 10, 2017 7:10PMMazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
- many others
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Fantasia0 -
SoLooney✭✭✭✭✭a class doesnt need to have access to every buff just to be stronger. just like there are very few sources of minor buffs like breach, fracture, brutality, sorcery, makes bringing different classes useful for trials.
minor force and minor heroism are very powerful buffs, one is mostly restricted to stam users while the other is mostly restricted to tanks, but doesnt mean it needs to be accessible via pots
sorcs are already very limited in slots as is, esp with a pet. slotting surge is a waste and a dps loss in end game trials.
magplars and magblades dont have an efficient way of their own major sorcery. i dont think magplars have their own class skill for major sorcery at all
im not gonna mention warden cause they just dont perform in terms of dps compared to other classes
the potion system is completely fine, most classes are gonna need major sorcery or major brutality, major prophecy or major savegery, and restoring their resources with a 20perc increased recovery0 -
Urza1234✭✭✭✭I would only be okay with those skills as potions if those buffs specifically had a very small duration...100% uptime on those buffs by just solely chugging a pot would be extremely OP. I would rather builds get a little unique flavour through the poisons actually. The duration are usually really short unless you want to waste a 5 piece to increase the duration (and still kind of short), and a cool down with small chance to proc.
I frankly agree that such pots would probably need to have a less than 100% uptime, but having even a 50% uptime or w/e would open up more build options.0 -
Urza1234✭✭✭✭
Its bad class fantasy to have these magicka based classes using essentially a bear trap. Yes I know it makes sense in terms of numbers, but it shouldnt, thats the point.LiquidPony wrote: »Alcast's magDK build doesn't use Molten Armaments because it is not a heavy attack build. There's no point. You can get Major Sorcery elsewhere, and you're playing in melee range with Flame Lash so it makes perfect sense to use Rearming Trap (and melee magicka builds have used trap for ages ... we see it on melee magblades and magplars as well).
Yet in many cases it isnt a DPS loss for you to lay down a cartoon bear trap. Thats the point. If you werent ALREADY getting Major Sorcery from pots then casting Power Surge wouldn't be a dps loss. You have basically no choice in the buffs you get from pots so you're always automatically going to have Major Sorcery, so Pots make Power Surge only minorly useful in group content. Thats the point. If players actually had choice between which buffs they got from Pots they might be free to slot fun skills like Power Surge more. Thats the point.LiquidPony wrote: »Magsorcs don't use Power Surge (outside of possibly vMoL back yard, and up top on Pinnacle Factotum) because there's no point. We have healers. Casting Power Surge would be a DPS loss versus another cast of Force Pulse/Crushing Shock.
Actually I'm stating that players are not forced to make meaningful choices about unslotting skill Y because they already are getting a benefit from pots. Even if skill Y is fun, interesting, and has utility they're unslotting it because the buff portion wont stack with the potion which they have essentially no choice about, and instead they're slotting a skill like bear trap that imo is not fun, interesting or useful -outside- the buff. If alchemy pots gave a wider range of buffs, like for instance minor force, then suddenly you could slot skills like Power Surge -without- it being a DPS loss. Thats the point.LiquidPony wrote: »You keep making these statements that "X build is unslotting Y skill just so they can get a benefit from pots," and it's wrong, wrong, wrong. You even admitted that you were making assumptions about the rationale behind those skill choices, and I'm here to tell you that those assumptions are wrong.
I only use the word 'assume' when talking about Alcast because I havent asked him personally, and I'm only using him as an accessible example. Not all players do exactly what he does. You keep thinking I dont get why players are making the decisions not to slot class sources of Major Sorcery/Brutality&Prophecy/Savagery. I do get it, its a dps loss for them to do so, but it shouldnt be. I'm not saying the players are wrong, they're not. The game is wrong, the game has a flaw in its design. Pots in pve have 0 player choice involved, they make a number of really fun class skills next to useless, and they incentivize weird *** like slotting bear trap on a number of magicka builds, its just blatantly bad game design. Adding more kinds of buffs to pots would fix all of that. Thats the point.
Edited by Urza1234 on December 11, 2017 6:10PM0 -
lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't like the idea of making even more skills almost useless by adding the same effect to pots.
If you just add a minor force plant, that can be combined with any other potion buff, you won't see more people use skills like crit surge or entropy. Instead every mag dd will use spell damage + force + rec potions and simply drop trap in favour of using their spammable one more time per rotation.0 -
Urza1234✭✭✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »I don't like the idea of making even more skills almost useless by adding the same effect to pots.
If you just add a minor force plant, that can be combined with any other potion buff, you won't see more people use skills like crit surge or entropy. Instead every mag dd will use spell damage + force + rec potions and simply drop trap in favour of using their spammable one more time per rotation.
Depends how you set it up. The point isnt to put all the buffs on 1 pot, the point is to have different pots do different things. Simply have the minor force plant also have reduce spell damage as a trait, problem solved.Edited by Urza1234 on December 11, 2017 6:22PM0 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No,
Just use the synergies from twlight remedy for minor force.
Make a set for do healers and give minor mending.0