gimpdrb14_ESO wrote: »

zos ever since you came out with the idea of putting in dungeons filled with monsters. people have been trying to find a way to avoid them, would it be possible to find out these ways and prevent people from skipping?

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind if all dungeons had speedrun tied to clearing all mobs, just like the two new dungeons have.

Unfortunately, dungeon speedruns weren’t made with full clears in mind (vRoM for example) so it would be unfair for all further Challenger attempts.

However, there already have been major changes in the game, such as one Tamriel where achievements have been reworked, so that gives me hope.

If anything else, I at least hope they can introduce “Mountain God” type achievements to ALL dungeons.
Make the old dungeons worth visiting again.

Yeah, how about we don't force everyone to play a certain way?

A lot of people avoid mobs in dungeons because they're there to farm for gear. They want to hit the bosses and try for the drops as quickly as they can, and spending time slogging through every group of enemies works against getting what you want without spending buttloads of time doing it.

If you want to kill everyone mob then ask at the start of a dungeon if it's a possibility. If people don't mind then great, but if people want to grind for their gear, just leave the group and find another and let others play as they like.

As someone who still needs to farm for a Skoria helm, you can bet your butt I'm not going to waste time and supplies on beating up trash mobs. I'm going to be with other people running straight to the bosses where possible.

I wish there was a way to navigate and avoid forum monsters.

/goesinsneak

Arunei wrote: »

Yeah, how about we don't force everyone to play a certain way?

A lot of people avoid mobs in dungeons because they're there to farm for gear. They want to hit the bosses and try for the drops as quickly as they can, and spending time slogging through every group of enemies works against getting what you want without spending buttloads of time doing it.

If you want to kill everyone mob then ask at the start of a dungeon if it's a possibility. If people don't mind then great, but if people want to grind for their gear, just leave the group and find another and let others play as they like.

As someone who still needs to farm for a Skoria helm, you can bet your butt I'm not going to waste time and supplies on beating up trash mobs. I'm going to be with other people running straight to the bosses where possible.

Why is the burden on those who want to play the dungeon as designed to ask if thats ok?

Why dont the speed runners ask "hey guys mind if we try to get this done as fast as possible?"

I dont understand it at all, you went into a PUG, which means those players likely dont run every dungeon hardcore and know it like the back of their hand.

So no, it should be on YOU to ask if its ok to speedrun because it puts pressure on everyone else in the group.

plus trash mobs can drop rings and necklaces!

Arunei wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Why is the burden on those who want to play the dungeon as designed to ask if thats ok?

Why dont the speed runners ask "hey guys mind if we try to get this done as fast as possible?"

I dont understand it at all, you went into a PUG, which means those players likely dont run every dungeon hardcore and know it like the back of their hand.

So no, it should be on YOU to ask if its ok to speedrun because it puts pressure on everyone else in the group.

Honestly you could argue that either side or neither side has the opus to ask, because neither is the wrong way to play the game. But if people are queuing into a specific dungeon, nine times out of ten they're looking for specific gear. Random dailies and pledges? Again most people want to run the dungeon as fast as possible to complete the content and get their experience or Undaunted Keys. I know every time I get into normal Fungal Grotto pledge, most every group skips the smaller Dreugh boss and the crab boss.

It's also technically not speedrunning and it doesn't put pressure on anyone because someone who wants to take their time and beat up all the mobs is quickly going to find out whether the group they're running with is going to fight mobs or dodge them, and they're free to leave the group if that's not the play style they want.

But asking for terrain changes or placement of mobs that would prevent people from skipping them is forcing people to play the way others want. It hurts no one for people to shave several minutes off runs for certain pieces, it's not like they're exploiting or cheating, so there's no reason to make people conform to doing things a certain way. All that would do is make people resent doing the content.

Also there's the fact that you can argue that a lot of these dungeons are designed so people CAN skip the mobs; if that wasn't the case, this thread wouldn't exist right now. So you could turn your comment of "playing the dungeon as designed" right around there, and say why can't a person take advantage of dungeons that are clearly set up to allow for skipping of certain enemies? Surely if ZOS didn't intend for this, they wouldn't make certain maps so open and easy to avoid or sneak through.

gimpdrb14_ESO wrote: »

[I say if you are wanting to farm a dungeon for drops/loot then make a premade group, and spam the hell out of it as much as you want skipping as much as you can, but for people like me who arnt in ahurry who like to take there time and enjoy my surroundings im hoping I get you in a group with me so I can make it last as long as I can.

You operate under the assumption that everyone has a group of people who need/want to run for the same gear at the same time or something, which isn't always the case. And you're being a jerk there, saying you want to make people go through content just because *you* want to do it and others don't. You do realize the group member kick thing is a feature, right? Or are you someone who'd try to hold back a group to spite them, them complain here on the forums that you were kicked because of it?

good points, but isn't a tank wanting to do a speed run using the lfg tool and then making other players do the speed run, isn't that also forcing other to play the way the way to? and we cant kick the tank since no one wants to wait an hour for a new one. and no I don't hold up the group out of spite then *** about it on the forums, last group I was tanked just ran the shortest way he could ingoring the other dps who wanted to the quest.

I dont have an issue with this. If I want to clear everything I make a group with people I know. If the guy skipping is not being a straight up tool I do not care as it is his time and he can manage it however he wants. He might be just as frustrated that the group is not going his speed. This issue has more to do with power creep and people that use to whine about dungeons being too hard enough.

Just make it so a boss can't be targeted or engaged unless all mobs between it and the last boss have been cleared, and the final boss can't be engaged unless the entire place has been cleared.

- With an exception for pre-made groups, that can engage anyway they like.

Trying to remember which but I believe some other MMOs do this.


A close parallel to this is the 'mythic' dungeons of WoW. They only drop loot on the final boss kill, and that won't drop unless a gauge of 'kills' has been filled - it isn't all the mobs in a dungeon, but it does end up being 'most'. And these dungeons are also on speed timers... the amount of loot dropped on final boss kill depends on how much time is left on the timer (and every time a party member dies, a chunk is ripped out of the time left).

- But this format actually encourages a very annoying style of play... people aggro everything and drag it to a point and then AoE it down... and builds are all about speed only, because the timers are extreme...


So I think the 'can't be engaged until area beforehand is cleared' is the better solution for 'random groups', but not applied to "full" premade groups.

WoW's system minus the timer would still be a little annoying as loot only drops at the end...

.

gimpdrb14_ESO wrote: »

good points, but isn't a tank wanting to do a speed run using the lfg tool and then making other players do the speed run, isn't that also forcing other to play the way the way to? and we cant kick the tank since no one wants to wait an hour for a new one. and no I don't hold up the group out of spite then *** about it on the forums, last group I was tanked just ran the shortest way he could ingoring the other dps who wanted to the quest.

People using the LFG tool are likely using it b/c they're trying to get their random daily dungeon for the day, which as I mentioned, is still a case where most people want to fly through it as quickly as they can so they can move on to other content. If a majority of the group wants to speed through a dungeon, they can vote to kick someone holding them up by trying to kill every mob, and by the same token if a majority of the group wants to take their time, they can kick the person skipping large portions of the map to get to bosses. It's not 'forcing' anyone to play a certain way; a person either leaves a group because they don't like the overall playstyle, they stick with it and play how they want and risk getting booted for holding up the group or moving too quickly, or they stick with it and go the speed the group is going. But it's not forcing anyone to play a certain way.

Also, the claim of "no one wants to kick the tank" doesn't hold water in a lot of cases, b/c even in vet dungeons I see people running ahead even before a group is fully ready, and in normal dungeons there's no need for a tank unless it's one of the DLC ones. People will generally run ahead in dungeons and clear what trash mobs they have to even if no one else, including a tank, is with them.

You also have to keep in mind that a lot of people have already cleared these dungeons dozens, if not hundreds, of times already. Can you really blame a large portion of the playerbase for wanting to skip parts of a dungeon they can likely run through with their eyes closed?

kichwas wrote: »

Just make it so a boss can't be targeted or engaged unless all mobs between it and the last boss have been cleared, and the final boss can't be engaged unless the entire place has been cleared.

- With an exception for pre-made groups, that can engage anyway they like.

Trying to remember which but I believe some other MMOs do this.


A close parallel to this is the 'mythic' dungeons of WoW. They only drop loot on the final boss kill, and that won't drop unless a gauge of 'kills' has been filled - it isn't all the mobs in a dungeon, but it does end up being 'most'. And these dungeons are also on speed timers... the amount of loot dropped on final boss kill depends on how much time is left on the timer (and every time a party member dies, a chunk is ripped out of the time left).

- But this format actually encourages a very annoying style of play... people aggro everything and drag it to a point and then AoE it down... and builds are all about speed only, because the timers are extreme...


So I think the 'can't be engaged until area beforehand is cleared' is the better solution for 'random groups', but not applied to "full" premade groups.

WoW's system minus the timer would still be a little annoying as loot only drops at the end...

This, again, is forcing people to play a certain way others want to play, by sayng you have to clear content that should be able to be skipped. What does it hurt you any if others want to skip past groups of trash mobs and get right to the bosses? The answer is it doesn't. Just because WoW or so-and-so other MMO does things doesn't mean ESO has to do them that way to; ESO is an entirely different MMO.

And as I told the other person before, you're operating under the false assumption that everyone who plays PvE content in this game has people who want or need to run the same dungeons at the same time as the person wanting to do the dungeon does. This obviously isn't the case, considering how many people PUG for dungeons, so really this would again only be forcing people to run the entirety of content most have already done time and time and time again, and would serve to make people resent doing the content.

so lets just skip the trash move straight to bosses then? then why have trash in the 1st place? why not just make a dungeon with a single room and once a boss dies another one spawns.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

So, like with CoA II, you'll have to go around the outskirts and collect every strangler, crocodile, and tiger you find? I don't think so. Often adds are there for gold or ult building purposes, too, or oddly enough, to give a breather between bosses.

Ever had an add glitch into the environment, preventing it from taking damage (CoH, CoS)?

The trash mobs blocking your path should compensate for this automatically, since doors do not activate when in combat.

And of course speed runs were made with trash in mind - do you not think the trash is there with the intent to slow you down? Or, do you think the 57 waves of pre-Mantikora adds are there for Ult building and awesome drops?

The remedy for this is a new achievement, involving the previous requirement plus full clear (or at least majority, in the case of bugs)

Furthermore, if the trash was removed, that 15 minute speed run requirement would simply be changed to a 10 minute speed run requirement. It effectively changes nothing.

simple fix, just fix the bugs in those dungeons you mentioned and take out all the little stuff way off out of the way.

gimpdrb14_ESO wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

So, like with CoA II, you'll have to go around the outskirts and collect every strangler, crocodile, and tiger you find? I don't think so. Often adds are there for gold or ult building purposes, too, or oddly enough, to give a breather between bosses.

Ever had an add glitch into the environment, preventing it from taking damage (CoH, CoS)?

The trash mobs blocking your path should compensate for this automatically, since doors do not activate when in combat.

And of course speed runs were made with trash in mind - do you not think the trash is there with the intent to slow you down? Or, do you think the 57 waves of pre-Mantikora adds are there for Ult building and awesome drops?

The remedy for this is a new achievement, involving the previous requirement plus full clear (or at least majority, in the case of bugs)

Furthermore, if the trash was removed, that 15 minute speed run requirement would simply be changed to a 10 minute speed run requirement. It effectively changes nothing.

simple fix, just fix the bugs in those dungeons you mentioned and take out all the little stuff way off out of the way.

or just kill the adds that block your path?

I've yet to be with a Speed Run capable group that has difficulty clearing trash. Half the mobs have tethers anyway.

If you want content without trash mobs, might I suggest Asylum and Cloudrest. (technically, there are adds, even if they're too minor to even notice)

Let's be fair, it goes both ways. You can't seriously say those who want to experience the dungeon are in the wrong telling them to make a premade while believing that same option shouldn't apply to those who are farming.

In my experience it's been more players who are looking for the full experience and just that one guy who darts straight ahead, especially in normal dungeons. Mobs drop jewelry and good gear too, I've gotten plenty from them!