Tank in Training - Convince me to stick with my non-meta set up

Left4Daud · June 2018

Hey all just looking for a little encouragement from some more experienced tanks that maybe play non-meta set ups.

Currently I've been running a lot of veteran 4 player content on my tank and trying to improve my fundamentals. I pretty much always PUG, so I plan for a lot of variables and enjoy the challenge in adapting to very different groups.

Right now I'm tanking on my Khajiit Nightblade and it's actually going pretty well. I'm just looking for a little encouragement for sticking with my set up because I've run into a few situations that make me second guess it. Like I will be in a PUG, and maybe there is a rough spot and I think to myself that an Argonian DK would not be struggling as much with this group, or this part for example.

I'm enjoying the Summerset changes to cloak for self heal, and having a form of chains is really nice! But the Argonian racials and DK passives really make me envious, they just seem so much stronger for tanking. Well, I don't plan on running trials any time soon so I don't think the BiS race/class combo is necessary for my current goals. My Khajiit Nightblade has been getting the job done in vet DLC dungeons and I enjoy the extra challenges in non-meta setup, but just looking for some encouragement from those that follow a similar path.

How do you non-meta tanks deal with the race/class shortcomings?

pat_thetic · June 2018

For relatively all vet dungeons, the min/max perspective won't matter as much. Especially while in a PUG as it's sort of the embodiment of life being a box of chocolates. I've successfully carried lower cp pugs through vICP on a high elf sorc tank last patch that clearly had struggled with other tanks because I ported in on the atro boss. I'm actually going to be rolling a real woodelf sorc tank now that non-DK chains are a thing, but mostly for aesthetic reasons. Woeler always plays a kitty and he's one of the go-to tanks for inspiration/aspirations. Keep doing what you have fun on and worry about the meta when you do try out trials. Would I use a nb tank in vAA on the axes, probably not. Can it be done, of course. Essentially having fun, understanding your role, your build, and most importantly your playstyle, are all going to be more effective than wearing and being meta

FrancisCrawford · June 2018

I can't help you on the specifics -- I PUG heal rather than tank -- but in general I can say:

You're probably much better than most tanks these folks might be grouped with. Remember that.
For your unique build and playstyle, know what your emergency bail-out moves are. Bolstering Darkness? (In 4-man it makes perfect sense to sacrifice Warhorn for something more relevant to your PRIMARY job.) Mass Hysteria (horrible for a couple of reasons -- but if it avoids a wipe, then why not)? They don't have to be meta. They just have to work when needed for you.

Left4Daud wrote: »

Hey all just looking for a little encouragement from some more experienced tanks that maybe play non-meta set ups.

Currently I've been running a lot of veteran 4 player content on my tank and trying to improve my fundamentals. I pretty much always PUG, so I plan for a lot of variables and enjoy the challenge in adapting to very different groups.

Right now I'm tanking on my Khajiit Nightblade and it's actually going pretty well. I'm just looking for a little encouragement for sticking with my set up because I've run into a few situations that make me second guess it. Like I will be in a PUG, and maybe there is a rough spot and I think to myself that an Argonian DK would not be struggling as much with this group, or this part for example.

I'm enjoying the Summerset changes to cloak for self heal, and having a form of chains is really nice! But the Argonian racials and DK passives really make me envious, they just seem so much stronger for tanking. Well, I don't plan on running trials any time soon so I don't think the BiS race/class combo is necessary for my current goals. My Khajiit Nightblade has been getting the job done in vet DLC dungeons and I enjoy the extra challenges in non-meta setup, but just looking for some encouragement from those that follow a similar path.

How do you non-meta tanks deal with the race/class shortcomings?

ramasurinenpreub18_ESO · June 2018

Off meta tanks are super fun. When it comes to four person content, as long as you're holding aggro and giving some solid group utility then you're doing your job and no one should have any complaints. I love my vamp redguard NB sap-ulti gen tank (my clear favourite of my four tanks) because of its unusual, slightly tricky, but very effective setup and rotation. Less than stellar group? Pop a barrier every 17 seconds and everyone lives through almost any hit. Got a really great group? Pop an aggressive horn every 17 sec and have the dungeon done in 10 mins or less.

DK may look better on the surface, and be a bit easier to play, but its not all roses. Sustain can definitely be an issue if you're not getting any orbs or shards from the healer, or running maelstrom sword and board. On a nightblade that's rarely a problem.

The change to silver leash and the addition of time stop have really leveled out the playing field when it comes to tanking classes. Love it.

Tasear · June 2018

You my find this route is better for you and might inspire others later in tanking like I did healing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/349428/sorcerer-healers-collection-dragon-bones-updated-new-build-added#latest

Logicbomb00 · June 2018

^^^^^^

So funny when people think builds are 'THEIRS'. There are 100's of 1000's of players in the game all with multiple alts. To think that YOU the special snowflake designed ANYTHING (and this goes for every player in the game) is totally deluding yourself.

Someone, maybe even 100's of someones, have already made ANY build you have EVER made. They just didn't feel the need to get all ego over it.

Logicbomb00 · June 2018

oh. btw. OP tank do whatever you want to do. I have the most fun in 5 x Thunderbugs 5 x Overwhelming (jewellery) and 2 x Illambris on a DK tank. So many visuals and effects you will shite yourself with glee (and still do your job - just use sturdy gear).

Wait one friggin moment.......

DID I JUST CREATE A BUILD!!!

Tasear · June 2018

Logicbomb00 wrote: »

^^^^^^

So funny when people think builds are 'THEIRS'. There are 100's of 1000's of players in the game all with multiple alts. To think that YOU the special snowflake designed ANYTHING (and this goes for every player in the game) is totally deluding yourself.

Someone, maybe even 100's of someones, have already made ANY build you have EVER made. They just didn't feel the need to get all ego over it.

My apologies seems like I have offended you, but OP is requesting to be convinced to continue on his path and felt like this matter related. From my perspective, seems like he was doubting himself and lacking pride. So my answer was play as you want, but those aren't exactly convincing words are they? Sounds like hogwash if you haven't actually lived it.

So thought it was apporiate to share a similar story. Yes the context is questions is tainted with pride, but that's what OP needs. Somebody who been there and done there.

So maybe bragging is inapporiate, but if you don't take a few to relish moments in success then how can you guide others to there own success? Sure it's just a game, but there a lot of lessons to be learned? Do you keep creating your own path of follow the one that's written down? That's real question that's being asked.

I don't think there's anything wrong with do tanking but there's a lot you enjoy as nightblade too. I personally find races another option for strengths and weakness. Personally, I think there's more balance in game then reality.

Now for quoted person, if you have any other issues with after my explanation and clarification then pm. There's no point in derailing the thread.

BejaProphet · June 2018

You are already proof that a meta race/class combo is not needed. I remain persuaded that any race and any class can perform any role in any content.

The only closed doors are from players desiring you to min max, never from the game requiring it.

That being said there are some red flags in your post that prompt me to challenge you to consider it from another angle. Are you a person who can mentally be at peace with knowing you are leaving some performance out? Your post indicates that you keep mildly obsessing about this even when you are ultimately succeeding.

I am in no way meaning to insult you. I personally am an Argonian DK tank. But after all I've learned about tanking, I can definitely say I do not think that it is necessary. It could be necessary for a particular new tank to survive well enough to initially learn to tank. But with skill absolutely none of it is needed at any level of play. But for me personally, whether its needed or not is not the point. I have an obsessive personality. I want to optimize regardless of whether or not its truly required.

So the question I'm asking: is that you as well? Are you somebody who, regardless of succeeding, will always be obsessed with, "Yes, I'm succeeding, but it could be better." If that's you, then maybe you shouldn't be encouraged to stick with your race class combo. Maybe you would actually have more fun running a min maxed character.

You plainly know its not needed. You plainly know those passive are nice. What is your priority? And what will make you enjoy the game the most? Because in the end that's all that really matters about a game.

Tasear · June 2018

@BejaProphet actually does make a good point,

You do have a decision to make. It's definitely easier to be accepted as a Dk tank, but don't see any mention of trials so there's not that many Barriers in 4 man dungeons. People are usually just happy to have one with a taunt

I would honestly ask yourself if you enjoy your nightblade. Do you find something compelling or interesting that might not be able to put words to. Seems like you might since made post. I read worry and awarkardness and lack of apperication for nb tanks in your post.But if thought of pushing things to limit within well documented guides sounds more compelling then go back to dk.. There's nothing wrong worth either choice.

Liofa · June 2018

Tank main here. You can tank every content with every race/class combo. "Most" of your group support will come from gear, not class. Class choice has the most effect on your own performance. If you are good at the game and know what you are doing, you'll be more accepted in trial runs than 99% of Argonian DKs. Player experience and knowledge defines the real quality of your gameplay, not class or race. Most tanks in this game blindly follow the builds they read online without knowing how to play it. You'll be like this at first. You'll be rejected from trial runs because mostly of your class but also for your race choice. Don't give up and find a group that accepts all kinds of players. Then carry on from there to be better. Remember this, if you die in a fight, it is not your class or race. It is because of your and/or groups mistake for not following mechanics. This is coming from a tank who played every class as tank. There is NOTHING in this game that forces you into playing a certain class/race to tank. Just keep in mind that some choices are better than others. You can run bare feet but wearing shoes can make quite a difference. It will hurt less and be much easier, if that makes sense.

When it comes to build, your gear makes the most difference. Choose a proper build to play with before anything else.

kylewwefan · June 2018

Tanking on a DK is easy. Very easy. Anything else is much different. You won’t build the same. Play the same. Etc.

If you’re struggling in certain aspects, the fix may be quite different. Every tank has an inventory full of different sets for different occasions.

The path may not be so well traveled, you may have to make your own.

Like someone pointed out, somebody somewhere probably already tried that, know what will work/ what won’t. I don’t feel super strong about any build I put together or need to credit anyone for coming up with it first.

Maybe somebody somewhere published it first, but that doesn’t mean no one else was already using it.

Personally, I wouldn’t recommend anyone make a Tank other than DK. They’re just that much easier to tank on. Maybe some people really like tanking and want to explore different approach. That’s just not me. It’s another toon I learned how to do something on.

The Argonian thing is extra icing on the cake. Makes resource management that much easier.

Left4Daud · June 2018

Thanks to all for taking the time to respond and offer a variety of perspectives, I do appreciate it.

I will give a specific example of an experience that made me think about race change from Khajiit to Argonian.

I was in a PUG last week doing vet Bloodroot Forge (when the lava on the last boss was still bugged and invisible). Things were going well and my group was doing the best we could considering the fight was bugged and causing some wipes. In one specific attempt, I remember holding the boss and his two copies for what seemed like eternity, wishing for my DPS to kill one, as the strain on my resources was getting very intense. The healer got killed by the invisible lava pool so I didn't have any more external support. I was able to heal myself and hold out until my potion was available but it still wasn't enough for the DPS to take the pressure off me by killing one of the Amalgams. I feel like in this specific situation, with this specific group, and this specific fight if I was to have the extra sustain from drinking a potion, my tank maybe would have been able to last long enough for my group to pull off the comeback and victory.

I kept thinking to myself, if I was an Argonian and I did everything the same - would I have survived there? That is what bothered me a little.

But apart from that moment, I have really been enjoying my non-meta set up, because I like my Khajiit and I enjoy tanking on a Nightblade especially with the Summerset changes. I originally created the Khajiit to experiment with a hybrid set up but started tanking to level up Undaunted and it kinda stuck. Before that I only played as a healer and DD. So thanks again for encouraging me to keep going in the path I am going, its great to have support from so many other players in the community.

Tasear · June 2018

Would it be odd if said blame the healer? Jokes aside, sounds like it dungeon itself there. Could be your gear too. What kind skills? Have you ever tried shield ultimate? Where you perm blocking? Did you use heavy attacks?

Left4Daud · June 2018

I’ve never tried the shield ulti because I heard it’s selfish

kylewwefan · June 2018

Use the S/B ultimate. Heavy attack to get the resource back.

SoLooney · June 2018

ramasurinenpreub18_ESO wrote: »

Off meta tanks are super fun. When it comes to four person content, as long as you're holding aggro and giving some solid group utility then you're doing your job and no one should have any complaints. I love my vamp redguard NB sap-ulti gen tank (my clear favourite of my four tanks) because of its unusual, slightly tricky, but very effective setup and rotation. Less than stellar group? Pop a barrier every 17 seconds and everyone lives through almost any hit. Got a really great group? Pop an aggressive horn every 17 sec and have the dungeon done in 10 mins or less.

DK may look better on the surface, and be a bit easier to play, but its not all roses. Sustain can definitely be an issue if you're not getting any orbs or shards from the healer, or running maelstrom sword and board. On a nightblade that's rarely a problem.

The change to silver leash and the addition of time stop have really leveled out the playing field when it comes to tanking classes. Love it.

what are you talking about? sustain on a dk is amazing... igneous shield, argonian, resources when you pop an ulti, great mitigation. if your group isnt throwing you synergies for alkosh procs or for sustain, thats a bad group.

4 man content and normal trials, sure, any race and class can tank problem. some of the vet trials, gonna be quite the challenge.

and dont throw tanks like woeler back at me. hes a khajiit and a very talented tank. but good tanks that dont follow meta are far and few in between

SoLooney · June 2018

accidental repeat

Tasear · June 2018

Left4Daud wrote: »

I’ve never tried the shield ulti because I heard it’s selfish

But you were progressing and trying to recover from situation.

kylewwefan · June 2018

It is selfish. But you have to play different. That’s ok.

Brrrofski · June 2018

I still use a saptank for dungeons and can do all vet dungeons on it with ease. Can do vet dragonstar arena easilly too.

5 bloodthorn touch
5 shackle breaker
1 kena
1 shadowrend

S&b and ice staff. No points in first destroy passive fo blocking still costs stamina

Pierce armor
Sap essence
Refreshing path
Inner light
Funnel health
Soul harvest

Inner fire
Shade
Elemental drain
Time stop
Leeching strikes
Devouring swarm

33.5k magica
30k health
18k Stam
1700 magica recovery
900 Stam recovery (I don't perma block so it's nice)
32% spell crit
2700 spell damage

Stam sustain through bloodthorn, leeching, decent Stam Regen and heavy attacks.

Magica sutain through bloodthorn, high regen and elemental drain.

I am an argonian which is the only metal thing about it.

Pulls 19k dps on a target dummy. Most of that damage also heals me and the group. With soul harvest on front bar, constantly casting siphoning skills and potion passives, bats is always up. So funnel, sap, bats, path and leeching gives insane healing. Don't need cloak at all.

Yeh, it is a selfish tank I guess. I mostly use it to run with randoms so crusher, alkosh and warhorn is usually useless. That coordination isn't really there. So adding a respectable amount of dps (very good for a tank) and a lot of group healing (most dungeons I can do with no healer as long as dps slot a self heal or use sipponing/surge etc) actually contributes to the group a lot. So I don't know - maybe it isn't that selfish.

Ok, so I don't have chains. But I know where to position myself in most pulls so the melee stack on the range. Time stop is a great addition (was previously running wall of elements) so you can snare and stung the ranged on place before they run off again. On bosses, I'll position the boss, put down path and shade on it then instead of funnel spam on boss, I'll take out range with it while group kill the boss.

ZOS keep nerfing saptank into the ground (funnel cost increase the latest - I transmuted a ring into infused reduced cost to compensate) but I refuse to give up. It's still very very strong if you understand each dungeon, tanking in general and the nightbpade class. I've used it a lot so whatever changes come I always find a way around it.

Brrrofski · June 2018

Oh an OP, you will notice a difference. Khajit (and woodelf) literally offers nothing for tanking. If you were something else, it wouldn't be too much of a big deal. Imperial, orc, resguard all offer Stam. Imprerial, Nord, orc all offer health. Dark elf gives Stam and mag. High elf gives mag and mag Regen. Breton gives mag and mag reduced cost. So with them you gain something at least.

Argonian is insane resource management though. Just spamming normal dropped potions itself is incredible.

There are definitely times you will die as a khajit where you would survive as an argonian. Can you do it on a khajit? Yeh, of course. But it's a lot harder.

Tasear · June 2018

Some more ideas since you are khajiit then maybe health recovery build? It would help with your self sustain.

BejaProphet · June 2018

Shield Discipline morph of the S&B ultimate is extremely powerful for a tank. PLUS, it doesn't every have to be selfish. Keep warhorn on the off bar and the shield ultimate on your tank bar. Always use the warhorn unless the S&B is going to save you. And I promise, if you are choosing between group wipe and missing a warhorn, every group you will ever have is going to wish you stopped the group wipe from happening.

It is an unbelievably powerful tool for stamina management. You can immediately freely heavy attack. When I was using it (I don't currently) I would pop shield discipline, throw heroic slash (free ultimate regeneration from my ultimate!) and then start heavy attacking or spam taunting depending on what was going wrong.

99% of the time you will use your warhorn, but when you have to have it, you have to have it. Survival isn't selfish.

Kuwhar · June 2018

I would just do whats fun. If you are trying to excel with your build and do your "job" it will show.

I play a templar tank and use sets that I deem useful, been through vet dungeons just fine. Never once been kicked or insulted, in fact have only recieved compliments.

And thats not me bragging, more making the point that the "meta" builds arent the only way to do things.

I have looked into making a NB tank it seems fun as heck, so if you enjoy it and are devoted to performing well, stick with it. Dont worry about what other people are doing.

kichwas · June 2018

If you're looking to do trials - I'd suggest playing that the way I played my tanking spot in my World of Warcraft guild.

I got a spot in the raid of a small guild as one of the tanks. Tanked with them for a while, got to know them, moved my way into the guild culture long enough to be an officer.

Then I just started showing up on raid night on various alts of tank classes other than the one I'd been brought in on.

Once people in your static know you as a player, and know you know things like fight mechanics, holding aggro, passing out the buffs / debuffs you're supposed to... and once they trust you in these things... they'll trust your judgement over other things as well...

For PUGs... people are stuck with whatever shows up when the queue pops. As long as you hold aggro and don't faceplant they're unlikely to vote kick. I write that having just voted a tank out of the last normal dungeon I was in... A nightblade with dual daggers and no undaunted or frost staff taunt to make up for it...

Swen_von_Walhallion · June 2018

from my experience as templar tank compare to my DK tank, only diference agais DK is stamina sustain. On other side i find play non meta tank more funy as mata. With Tankplar i have still something to do, i must counting when use shild to block attack isted blocking when can put down HA or use meditate, i must know which skills are god for which figt which force me to learn more about bos mechanics. In pugs when i have "luck" on poor or fake healer i can help with healing too and i feel self more supporting group then with DK. And i find DK little boring you can use one set of skills for almast all dungeons and trials without problem.
I i am lucky bc i have chance to tank all trilas with templar, only HRC,AA, SO on vet res on normal but it wa rly revarding for me and it was sometime rly chalenging. One thing is if you will have cancce tanke higher trials you wil be forced to wear meta sets. I hope you stick on you non meta tank and will be revarded for it with lots of fun.

profundidob16_ESO · June 2018

I have 3 tank chars, each a different class. Now that the common tank cc skills are available to all classes and no longer just to DK it's perfectly valid to play on any class imho. The biggest difference is that DK has best sustain due to his passives and therefore becomes best when min-maxing.

1 thing you really need to think about is how serious you are about progressing into trials. You must realize that when a new trial or vet dlc dungeon is being released and you wipe after wipe in there trying to make progress, 90% of the people you play with will be wondering "wouldn't this have gone better if the tank was a DK ?". Mostly the answer is "no" because the real problem or sources of wiping lies elsewhere but still alot of groups might not accept you for the hardest content or give you the chances/credit you deserve

Asardes · June 2018

Speaking of mine, I was able to compensate trough gear up to a point, but some things are really hard to get by. For example I wasn't able to tank vBF HM on anything but DK and Warden, since the incoming damage is so high, and also the pulls in trash packs have to be quite fast and reliable as well. Wouldn't attempt vDSA on anything else since there you have to pull many adds fast in most of the stages as well. So NB is fine, as long as you stick to base game veteran dungeons and older DLC ones (IC, SotH), but in newer DLC ones & vDSA you'll get rekt hard. Also I wouldn't attempt veteran trials for the same reasons. Running non-META means not being able to do certain content at all, or having serious trouble completing it in any case. Race makes much less difference than class. You should be able to sustain just fine, in all content in this game, even if you're not Argonian. In fact if you know how to sustain, and have adequate group support, Imperial is actually better for tanking, due to superior resource pools.

Lord_Eomer · June 2018

pat_thetic wrote: »

For relatively all vet dungeons, the min/max perspective won't matter as much. Especially while in a PUG as it's sort of the embodiment of life being a box of chocolates. I've successfully carried lower cp pugs through vICP on a high elf sorc tank last patch that clearly had struggled with other tanks because I ported in on the atro boss. I'm actually going to be rolling a real woodelf sorc tank now that non-DK chains are a thing, but mostly for aesthetic reasons. Woeler always plays a kitty and he's one of the go-to tanks for inspiration/aspirations. Keep doing what you have fun on and worry about the meta when you do try out trials. Would I use a nb tank in vAA on the axes, probably not. Can it be done, of course. Essentially having fun, understanding your role, your build, and most importantly your playstyle, are all going to be more effective than wearing and being meta

Woofelf sorc tank? Despite there is no such thing called Ganktanker?

Merlin13KAGL · June 2018

Easier is not always the same as better.

Pure meta simplifies things, sure. By being off meta, you're going to obligate yourself to be better at your character and class.

If you truly run into content you can't do, you can either adjust CP's (eventually), gear (new sets always incoming), or make an alt that is meta and fall asleep at the wheel from the easier factor after mastering your off meta build.

There are 15 slots to play with. Don't summarily execute a character you enjoy and are good with simply because a stat bonus here or there doesn't line up with the meta (which tends to change, albeit more slowly than with other roles).

TL;DR; Your kitty's a badass. Let it continue to be so.