My level 8 friend says ESO is TOO easy

Linaleah · June 2018

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

This is a classic example of your average player in ESO, especially on console. Remember, console now accounts for 2/3 of the ESO playerbase.

You can't seriously believe this is an average player. A person that does no effort whatsoever to figure out the mechanics of the game should not be used as a baseline for difficulty. Else you can just as well remove all those mechanics.
And the fact that he made it to 600+ CP playing like this shows the difficulty is ridiculously low...

what it also shows that all those claims how much harder Skyrim is are blatantly false AND exaggerated. becasue this player? that is how they play SKYRIM.

and yes. difficulty like this SHOULD be used as baseline.

Skyrim is a single player game and therefore not comparable for the purpose of saying how an MMO should be.

It is very typical for single player games to have a difficulty setting whereas it is not common in MMORPGs open world content.

I'm aware. but more then ones I have seem people requesting higher difficulty - claim that Skyrim was hard and part of the reason why ESO is not a true ES game, becasue its that much easier.

and becasue ESO IS an MMO, difficulty should be scaled to be as accesible as possible, at least in overworld/quest content. which is why we DO have 3 difficulty settings for dungeon and trial content ALREADY. and I'm totally cool if that sort of difficulty setting is expanded to more instanced content, including solo quests. but baseline difficulty HAS to remain what it is right now.

the so-called good old days of release ESO didn't go so well for ESO, or it wouldn't be changed into what it is right now.

issue is the that the baseline difficulty= no difficulty.

DEAL WITH IT.

this is the difficulty that they have found to work for the most people. this is the difficulty that a lot of us actualy enjoy as is.

and this is what i mean, while there are those who are willing to find compromise in some way, the rest of you do not give a damn about anyone but your own preference, regardless of what it does to the game as a whole. and no, excluding people who are not as good as video games as you are is NOT going to make the game healthier. quite the contrary

Betsararie · June 2018

omg. The difficulty. Come on

Bonzodog01 · June 2018

There is one other thing I want to say to this - disclaimer - I have done and completed every quest in game on 3 characters.

One of the things I did notice is that for reasons unknown, EP overland questing is considerably more difficult than AD or DC. AD overland questing is faceroll easy, and to some extent, quite boring as well. In AD there isnt a single zone that presents any kind of challenge. No area where merely standing in the wrong place will kill you. I wouldn't blame AD players for saying the game is easy and unchallenging. I wouldn't really blame DC players for saying the same thing, but at least the DC story is a tad more engaging than the AD ones.

EP however - even in stonefalls, there are two quests that I know I will never forget, because of the amount of times I got owned during them. First one is right near the beginning when you have to convince the nords to join and help, and they set the challenge of fighting them in boss mode whilst drunk. Your screen goes funny, and the controls go to hell, and they are actually a real challenge, even for someone with CP. If I am in Stonefalls, I often see zone chat cries for help with that one.

The other one is putting the second of the two brothers down at the end of stonefalls. Holy hell, that is a fight you do not forget. Apart from trying to prevent yourself from falling in lava whilst trying to dispell the wards to get to him, the fight itself is hell, because he recharges his health if he stands in lava, and the fight is also phased with waves of skeletons coming at you, and you HAVE to be ranged to hit him. If you don't have any ranged weapons, that fight will not go well.

Deshaan is easy and quite boring in places, then Shadowfen steps the game up yet again with the zone making most people feel frankly uncomfortable, plus its annoying have to fights crocs and wasps every 10 seconds. The quests arent difficult though, just a LOT of mobs around.

Eastmarch is...meh. Not difficult, though it has an interesting twist around the vampire mansions. Then you get to the The Rift. Now, the rift, for the most part is not much more than annoying, having to fight off large cats, but it has a lot of incidental fights spread around the zone with large boss mobs, lots of giants, mammoths and trolls. Then you get to the mountain near the end of the zone. All you have to do is climb to the top and not die. See, you take constant environmental damage all the time you are up there due to the sheer cold, and you are fighting mobs whilst trying to light fires merely to stay alive. Without a self heal or someone to heal you, that place is a nightmare.

So yeah, EP is more of a challenge for some reason, and its a good idea to start there is you want to feel challenged.

ResTandRespeC · June 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

And my imaginary friend says that the vocal hardcore minority need to stop being bad losers and flooding the forums with duplicate threads. I mean, seriously, can we stop with the #GamerGate-y tactics? This was polled, repeatedly, and the hardcore lost every single time. No matter how yer doctors of spin try to put a new take on it, it's still the same broken record repeating the same thing ad nauseum.

The moderators are likely getting sick of this and might start doling out temporary bans, soon. I mean, I wouldn't blame them. This is, what, the twelfth thread in the past fortnight?

There are other games out there which have what you want, ESO shouldn't commit financial suicide to suit your tastes.

- WildStar tried to appeal to you guys, dead on arrival;
- Guild Wars 2's expansion Heart of Thorns expansion tried to appeal to you guys, almost killed ArenaNet and they had to redesign the campaign to be more casual (along with apologising profusely);
- Champions Online tried to appeal to you guys, it's on life support;
- Battleborn ignored its casual audience and tried to appeal to you guys, it's on life support;
- ESO's Craglorn and Cadwell's Gold/Silver were miserable failures, leading to the current scaling system.

That last one bears repeating: ESO's Craglorn and Cadwell's Gold/Silver were miserable failures. ZOS tried this. They saw the impending doom. They ran away from the impending doom of financial suicide as fast as their legs would carry them. This battle has already been lost in ESO.

Please fight it somewhere else?

Thank you.

then we get things like dlc dungeons and trials that are not casual friendly

ResTandRespeC · June 2018

Everstorm wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

This is a classic example of your average player in ESO, especially on console. Remember, console now accounts for 2/3 of the ESO playerbase.

You can't seriously believe this is an average player. A person that does no effort whatsoever to figure out the mechanics of the game should not be used as a baseline for difficulty. Else you can just as well remove all those mechanics.
And the fact that he made it to 600+ CP playing like this shows the difficulty is ridiculously low...

This is the future of gaming unfortunately lol

Bobby_V_Rockit · June 2018

Ooh, I member getting named weapons from world bosses that were too high level and I couldnt use (getting a level 25 greatsword at level 21) and that being awesome.

Kuwhar · June 2018

Need a little more context; did you craft him sets? What class?

klowdy1 wrote: »

I had taken a break from ESO for a while, just came back a few days ago. In that time, I jumped back to WoW and GW2, mostly GW2. Coming back and starting the Summerset story was a little offputting after being gone for so long. I came to my first OW enemy expecting to run through a few skills, as I have been in GW, but I vot through LA>jabs>LA, and the mob was dead. Even WoW shows some challenge in the final zone. Granted, I'm in full gold gear (minus jewelry), but it's nothing special, spriggan's and hunding's. It just seems like there SHOULD be a bit more of a challenge to killing things. Even elite mobs go down very easily. It doesn't need to be anything crazy, some more health would suffice.

Lol nothing special except for that probably close to 50% crit chance on a probably 300+ CP DD build with all gold gear. And what kind of weapon damage?

Do you all want your progression to matter or?

If you want added challenge, dont build to the meta its that simple.

Kuwhar · June 2018

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

This is a classic example of your average player in ESO, especially on console. Remember, console now accounts for 2/3 of the ESO playerbase.

You can't seriously believe this is an average player. A person that does no effort whatsoever to figure out the mechanics of the game should not be used as a baseline for difficulty. Else you can just as well remove all those mechanics.
And the fact that he made it to 600+ CP playing like this shows the difficulty is ridiculously low...

what it also shows that all those claims how much harder Skyrim is are blatantly false AND exaggerated. becasue this player? that is how they play SKYRIM.

and yes. difficulty like this SHOULD be used as baseline.

Skyrim is a single player game and therefore not comparable for the purpose of saying how an MMO should be.

It is very typical for single player games to have a difficulty setting whereas it is not common in MMORPGs open world content.

I'm aware. but more then ones I have seem people requesting higher difficulty - claim that Skyrim was hard and part of the reason why ESO is not a true ES game, becasue its that much easier.

and becasue ESO IS an MMO, difficulty should be scaled to be as accesible as possible, at least in overworld/quest content. which is why we DO have 3 difficulty settings for dungeon and trial content ALREADY. and I'm totally cool if that sort of difficulty setting is expanded to more instanced content, including solo quests. but baseline difficulty HAS to remain what it is right now.

the so-called good old days of release ESO didn't go so well for ESO, or it wouldn't be changed into what it is right now.

issue is the that the baseline difficulty= no difficulty.

For YOU maybe... but like I've mentioned earlier... I've SEEN many many many times players dying in open world combat against quest enemies. ESO has to consider them into the equation as well and not just 'end game' or 'experienced' players coming in expecting a challenge. That's what END GAME dungeons and PvP are for... for those who want a challenge... open world is for people who want to enjoy the story and quest without the stress of 'challenge'.

A single npc does less than 1k per second.probably a bit higher without cp,but the difference can't be too much.If anybody is dying to this sort of *** they are pathetic.ZOS should stop catering to this low.

So if a new player gets into a fight against 3 enemies, thats 3k per second. If they are a mage build or even a stam build they have what 10-12k health?

So they die in 3-4 seconds, but somehow thats not challenging enough?

When i go out on my lvl 30 healer, i can handle a group of 3 mobs but i have to be careful. They get my hp down quickly.

No special sets, CP, weapons, or what else just normal dropped gear with a couple green pieces.

I do actually think its balanced right now for new and casual players that dont min/max every last stat

MehrunesFlagon · June 2018

Sevn wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

This is a classic example of your average player in ESO, especially on console. Remember, console now accounts for 2/3 of the ESO playerbase.

You can't seriously believe this is an average player. A person that does no effort whatsoever to figure out the mechanics of the game should not be used as a baseline for difficulty. Else you can just as well remove all those mechanics.
And the fact that he made it to 600+ CP playing like this shows the difficulty is ridiculously low...

what it also shows that all those claims how much harder Skyrim is are blatantly false AND exaggerated. becasue this player? that is how they play SKYRIM.

and yes. difficulty like this SHOULD be used as baseline.

Skyrim is a single player game and therefore not comparable for the purpose of saying how an MMO should be.

It is very typical for single player games to have a difficulty setting whereas it is not common in MMORPGs open world content.

I'm aware. but more then ones I have seem people requesting higher difficulty - claim that Skyrim was hard and part of the reason why ESO is not a true ES game, becasue its that much easier.

and becasue ESO IS an MMO, difficulty should be scaled to be as accesible as possible, at least in overworld/quest content. which is why we DO have 3 difficulty settings for dungeon and trial content ALREADY. and I'm totally cool if that sort of difficulty setting is expanded to more instanced content, including solo quests. but baseline difficulty HAS to remain what it is right now.

the so-called good old days of release ESO didn't go so well for ESO, or it wouldn't be changed into what it is right now.

issue is the that the baseline difficulty= no difficulty.

For YOU maybe... but like I've mentioned earlier... I've SEEN many many many times players dying in open world combat against quest enemies. ESO has to consider them into the equation as well and not just 'end game' or 'experienced' players coming in expecting a challenge. That's what END GAME dungeons and PvP are for... for those who want a challenge... open world is for people who want to enjoy the story and quest without the stress of 'challenge'.

A single npc does less than 1k per second.probably a bit higher without cp,but the difference can't be too much.If anybody is dying to this sort of *** they are pathetic.ZOS should stop catering to this low.

Insult them all you like, they are exactly who Zos should cater the overworld for and dungeons/trials/pvp for endgame players looking for a challenge.

Shouldn't be catering to such a low level that the npcs attack as if they were brain dead.

Ok, serious question. Just who do you think is the vast majority in this player base, casuals who play videogames for laid back entertainment or the hardcore who play videogames for some type of challenging experience?

i don't think it's the hardcore,but then again I don't t think it's quite all players that want absolutely no resistance either.So middle ground more than like,which still means we should up the difficulty.

MehrunesFlagon · June 2018

Kuwhar wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

This is a classic example of your average player in ESO, especially on console. Remember, console now accounts for 2/3 of the ESO playerbase.

You can't seriously believe this is an average player. A person that does no effort whatsoever to figure out the mechanics of the game should not be used as a baseline for difficulty. Else you can just as well remove all those mechanics.
And the fact that he made it to 600+ CP playing like this shows the difficulty is ridiculously low...

what it also shows that all those claims how much harder Skyrim is are blatantly false AND exaggerated. becasue this player? that is how they play SKYRIM.

and yes. difficulty like this SHOULD be used as baseline.

Skyrim is a single player game and therefore not comparable for the purpose of saying how an MMO should be.

It is very typical for single player games to have a difficulty setting whereas it is not common in MMORPGs open world content.

I'm aware. but more then ones I have seem people requesting higher difficulty - claim that Skyrim was hard and part of the reason why ESO is not a true ES game, becasue its that much easier.

and becasue ESO IS an MMO, difficulty should be scaled to be as accesible as possible, at least in overworld/quest content. which is why we DO have 3 difficulty settings for dungeon and trial content ALREADY. and I'm totally cool if that sort of difficulty setting is expanded to more instanced content, including solo quests. but baseline difficulty HAS to remain what it is right now.

the so-called good old days of release ESO didn't go so well for ESO, or it wouldn't be changed into what it is right now.

issue is the that the baseline difficulty= no difficulty.

For YOU maybe... but like I've mentioned earlier... I've SEEN many many many times players dying in open world combat against quest enemies. ESO has to consider them into the equation as well and not just 'end game' or 'experienced' players coming in expecting a challenge. That's what END GAME dungeons and PvP are for... for those who want a challenge... open world is for people who want to enjoy the story and quest without the stress of 'challenge'.

A single npc does less than 1k per second.probably a bit higher without cp,but the difference can't be too much.If anybody is dying to this sort of *** they are pathetic.ZOS should stop catering to this low.

So if a new player gets into a fight against 3 enemies, thats 3k per second. If they are a mage build or even a stam build they have what 10-12k health?

So they die in 3-4 seconds, but somehow thats not challenging enough?

When i go out on my lvl 30 healer, i can handle a group of 3 mobs but i have to be careful. They get my hp down quickly.

No special sets, CP, weapons, or what else just normal dropped gear with a couple green pieces.

I do actually think its balanced right now for new and casual players that dont min/max every last stat

This would be assuming they did nothing to avoid getting hit or perhaps even kill the.Also new players when they start if they actually have food will have more health than 10-12k.Not to mention this can be done if you are missing part if not all of your gear.

karekiz · June 2018

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

then we get things like dlc dungeons and trials that are not casual friendly

Alongside Morrowind/Clockwork City/Summerset style updates which are just as casual friendly as the base game.

Clockwork city is my favorite for alts as you can run it out of tutorial it takes about 2 hours tops and you get a 150% xp scroll for 2 hours. To put that into perspective: 1 mythic ambrosia can go for roughly 25K <30 min duration> according to TTC sells atm - so basically it is X4 of those which saves you 100K + a head start on grinding with an alt.

Not bad for a two hour DLC.

The game delivers to both styles. It's just there is this one ***Small*** niche of players that want solo only based objectives with VMA style difficulty everywhere. While VMA 2 wouldn't be a bad thing to add, it would be silly to add it to the base questing area.

All of those also include WB's/Delves/dailies for motiffs for casuals to use. World Bosses being the "tough" casual content. I have even asked for WB's to be buffed even larger and loot be balanced accordingly <Craglorn trial normal boss difficulty level>, but when you suggest to make daily bosses harder people freak cause that wouldn't work with motiff grinding :P .

Rain_Greyraven · June 2018

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

becasue it immediately excludes people for whom easy difficulty is created. and those people? pay money too, AND they tend to be in a majority.

That's the point we've tried to explain to them with the emphasis on financial suicide and how it affected Guild Wars 2, Battleborn, Wildstar, Champions Online, and so many other games. The truth is is that hardcore players are such a minuscule minority that even if they all subscribed, it wouldn't even touch the huge amount of money thrown out by casual roleplayers.

Here's a Universal truth we've learned from past games:

- Do hardcore players buy costumes? Nope.
- Do hardcore players buy houses/furniture? Nope.
- Do hardcore players buy personalities/emotes? Nope.
- Do hardcore players buy things to skip grind? Nope.
- Do hardcore players buy cosmetic pets? Nope.
- Do hardcore players even buy mounts, for the most part? Nope, most use in-game money bought horses.

And we know this, statistically, from far too many games. It's what ArenaNet found out when their cash shop purchases just totally dried up in Heart of Thorns. Hardcore players don't use cash shop stuff, for the most part they don't subscribe. They have the time to grind, but they don't have the money to buy things with. So they opt for things accrued via grinding.

You can't found a business based upon people who never spend money on the game.

I know that. ZOS knows that. Every company who's ever made this mistake knows that.

There's no money in the hardcore. That's why games that target them keep dying. Either the hardcore audience just has no money or they simply don't spend it, whichever it is, this is Universally a statistical truth. You could use Heart of Thorns alone to make this point.

So why keep doing this? Play Black Desert or something. I mean, I know that's dying too but you might get something out of it before it goes, neh?

Or is this a parasitic thing where you're hoping that latching onto a game that's shown to be stable will allow you to enjoy your hardcore play for longer? Is that what this is? If so, I ask you: Where do you think that stability is coming from? Yeah.

Edit: And WoW? It's a gambling addiction. You're paying to support a gambling addiction. Why is it viable? You have to buy all of the expansions and pay the subscription to feed your gambling addiction. ESO isn't a gambling game, though. ZOS specifically didn't want to do that. That's why Morrowind comes with the subscription, now. They're not being WoW.

They're sending a pretty specific message with that.

Edit 2: And look at the Summerset Collector's Edition, what do you get?

- A Razum-dar journal;
- A cool daedric prince statue;
- Emotes;
- Personalities;
- Pets.

Nothing about that is hardcore. ZOS knows where their money is coming from. It's from casuals and roleplayers. Can I make this point any more than I am? ZOS already knows.

You must be new here. Add ESO to the list. The game lost half its pop when skeevers were epic bosses.

That is incredibly inaccurate, ESO has more players now than it ever had. Actually @AuldWolf nailed it, I have been part of developer summits, where similar information is discussed.....the problem is most developers have "their vision" and to hell with anything else....luckily ZoS seems to be at least trying to listen by not doing whatever the hard cores say.

Still they do offer much more content that the vast majority will never see, and again luckily the casuals (who are the bread and butter of the game) support it.....but games and gamers are changing and it isn't going to be that way forever.

MehrunesFlagon · June 2018

Linaleah wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

This is a classic example of your average player in ESO, especially on console. Remember, console now accounts for 2/3 of the ESO playerbase.

You can't seriously believe this is an average player. A person that does no effort whatsoever to figure out the mechanics of the game should not be used as a baseline for difficulty. Else you can just as well remove all those mechanics.
And the fact that he made it to 600+ CP playing like this shows the difficulty is ridiculously low...

what it also shows that all those claims how much harder Skyrim is are blatantly false AND exaggerated. becasue this player? that is how they play SKYRIM.

and yes. difficulty like this SHOULD be used as baseline.

Skyrim is a single player game and therefore not comparable for the purpose of saying how an MMO should be.

It is very typical for single player games to have a difficulty setting whereas it is not common in MMORPGs open world content.

I'm aware. but more then ones I have seem people requesting higher difficulty - claim that Skyrim was hard and part of the reason why ESO is not a true ES game, becasue its that much easier.

and becasue ESO IS an MMO, difficulty should be scaled to be as accesible as possible, at least in overworld/quest content. which is why we DO have 3 difficulty settings for dungeon and trial content ALREADY. and I'm totally cool if that sort of difficulty setting is expanded to more instanced content, including solo quests. but baseline difficulty HAS to remain what it is right now.

the so-called good old days of release ESO didn't go so well for ESO, or it wouldn't be changed into what it is right now.

issue is the that the baseline difficulty= no difficulty.

DEAL WITH IT.

this is the difficulty that they have found to work for the most people. this is the difficulty that a lot of us actualy enjoy as is.

and this is what i mean, while there are those who are willing to find compromise in some way, the rest of you do not give a damn about anyone but your own preference, regardless of what it does to the game as a whole. and no, excluding people who are not as good as video games as you are is NOT going to make the game healthier. quite the contrary

How about no?Not to mention the difficulty level is insulting to anyone that has even the slightest amount of skill.

Kolache · June 2018

As far as I knew, hardcore used to imply things like focused on top tier/ranked content... raiding, competitive PvP, etc.

Before ESO I don't think I ever heard of someone being accused of being hardcore simply because they complained about a game's questing/open-world solo content being boringly easy.

Not naked? Have potions in your quickslots? You sound like a try-hard /s

So far I've heard things like:

Quests/overland content shouldn't have any difficulty--they're just there for the story
ANY tweaking to this content's difficulty would alienate disabled veterans (really, someone said this)
VR Craglorn, Wildstar, and HoT are examples of why you'll make everyone quit if you adjust the difficulty (because these games didn't have other problems and their forced group content/grind is comparable to ESO's solo content/questing)

And my favorite:

If you personally chime in with your opinion that you would prefer the content to be more difficult you're a bad person because you're not thinking about what others want. That's right, you're selfish.

Meanwhile, as anecdotal as the OP's story is, I agree and I had the same experience with multiple friends. Just my lying selfish opinion representing the vocal 'hardcore questing' minority.

Rain_Greyraven · June 2018

Kolache wrote: »

As far as I knew, hardcore used to imply things like focused on top tier/ranked content... raiding, competitive PvP, etc.

Before ESO I don't think I ever heard of someone being accused of being hardcore simply because they complained about a game's questing/open-world solo content being boringly

Then you must have never played, WoW, GW2 during the HoT fiasco Wildstar before it became a Ghost town, Wizadry online before it closed or D&D Online before it became a forgettable Niche title.

Kolache wrote: »

Not naked? Have potions in your quickslots? You sound like a try-hard /s

So far I've heard things like:
Quests/overland content shouldn't have any difficulty--they're just there for the story

ANY tweaking to this content's difficulty would alienate disabled veterans (really, someone said this)

VR Craglorn, Wildstar, and HoT are examples of why you'll make everyone quit if you adjust the difficulty (because these games didn't have other problems and their forced group content/grind is comparable to ESO's solo content/questing)

Hyperbole, Bull Krinkies, and Horse feathers......but seriously, it's not like we haven't heard our fair share of "Casuals are Toxic" , "Casuals are a cancer"," Casuals are babies" , "Casuals have ruined the game." , and many other hateful assertions, so please don't make out like the casuals are the source of everything intolerant in MMO's today, when in reality they are the ones that are dealing with the incessant harassment by Hard cores and would be try-hards in pugs and in PVP. Search ESO toxicity on YouTube and in every case it is Hard Core players acting like jerks to the more causal player.

Kolache wrote: »

And my favorite:
If you personally chime in with your opinion that you would prefer the content to be more difficult you're a bad person because you're not thinking about what others want. That's right, you're selfish.

Meanwhile, as anecdotal as the OP's story is, I agree and I had the same experience with multiple friends. Just my lying selfish opinion representing the vocal 'hardcore questing' minority.

Dude, your'e not a victim, just stop because no one is buying what you are selling. I as well as many of my guild mates and friends have gotten death threats in game for the major crime of riding a Apex mount, by one of the more hard core guilds that openly admits it has an agenda of a supremacist return to the old days, where casuals are relegated to providing mats to the uber elite, that didn't last in WoW, EQ died because SOE refused to let that go, and Wildstar is a Ghost town.....A successful MMo can't cater to the lowest income denominator.

Thankfully Zenimax actually wants to be able to keep their lights on so that lunacy won't be happening any time soon.

Hard cores aren't the victims, in most cases they are the issue.

Lord_Eomer · June 2018

Tell him to finish finest end game contents like VMA in 30 days to prove eso is very easy

Kolache · June 2018

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

As far as I knew, hardcore used to imply things like focused on top tier/ranked content... raiding, competitive PvP, etc.

Before ESO I don't think I ever heard of someone being accused of being hardcore simply because they complained about a game's questing/open-world solo content being boringly

Then you must have never played, WoW, GW2 during the HoT fiasco Wildstar before it became a Ghost town, Wizadry online before it closed or D&D Online before it became a forgettable Niche title.

I played all of these during the relevant time-frames and I'll bother to explain one of them. Take GW2/HoT at release. First you have GW2, a game where 90% of the game is solo-friendly. Then you add HoT which is the opposite, where 90% of the content requires groups of people. HoT content was designed for groups--not ESO "group content" that people pretend is just supposed to be tougher for solo players--like real group content.

Nobody could get anything done without trains of people following the map meta, by design. I won't even get into raiding and ascended crafting. HoT was basically the opposite of what GW2's core was, and more importantly in this context, it was nothing like what people asking for ESO overland content difficulty tweaking are asking for (at least the complaints/requests I've seen). I haven't seen anyone asking to make more "group-only" overland content.

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Not naked? Have potions in your quickslots? You sound like a try-hard /s

So far I've heard things like:
Quests/overland content shouldn't have any difficulty--they're just there for the story

ANY tweaking to this content's difficulty would alienate disabled veterans (really, someone said this)

VR Craglorn, Wildstar, and HoT are examples of why you'll make everyone quit if you adjust the difficulty (because these games didn't have other problems and their forced group content/grind is comparable to ESO's solo content/questing)

Hyperbole, Bull Krinkies, and Horse feathers...... And it's not like we haven't heard our fair share of "Casuals are Toxic" , "Casuals are a cancer"," Casuals are babies" , "Casuals have ruined the game." , and many other hateful assertions, so please don't make out like the casuals are the source of everything intolerant in MMO's today, when in reality they are the ones that are dealing with the incessant harassment by Hard cores and would be try-hards in pugs and in PVP. Search ESO toxicity on YouTube and in every case it is Hard Core players acting like jerks to the more causal player.

Hyperbole for the one comment ending with the sarcasm tag (go figure /s). The other points? Anyone that has been reading these difficulty posts knows that these are pretty close to exactly what has been said. As for filthy casuals...

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

And my favorite:
If you personally chime in with your opinion that you would prefer the content to be more difficult you're a bad person because you're not thinking about what others want. That's right, you're selfish.

Meanwhile, as anecdotal as the OP's story is, I agree and I had the same experience with multiple friends. Just my lying selfish opinion representing the vocal 'hardcore questing' minority.

Dude, your'e not a victim, just stop because no one is buying what you are selling. I as well as many of my guild mates and friends have gotten death threats in game for the major crime of riding a Apex mount, by one of the more hard core guilds that openly admits it has an agenda of a supremacist return to the old days, where casuals are relegated to providing mats to the uber elite, that didn't last in WoW, EQ died because SOE refused to let that go, and Wildstar is a Ghost town.....A successful MMo can't cater to the lowest income denominator.

Thankfully Zenimax actually wants to be able to keep their lights on so that lunacy won't be happening any time soon.

Hard cores aren't the victims, in most cases they are the issue.

Dude, I am a casual! That's the hilarious part. You can't be a "hardcore quester" there is no such thing. People are getting labeled as hardcore for saying the game's overland content that they want to focus on is too easy. If they're wanting to focus on overland content... pssst... they're probably not hardcore.

I'm not interested in veteran DLC trial hard mode stuff. I just want to continue to play Skyrim online and kill stuff in a multiplayer environment. Overland is my jam, or at least I wish it was... and it doesn't have to be the end times just because ZOS adjusts scaling or even attempts to ponder creative ways to make more people feel engaged without totally utterly over-dramatically destroying the game for others.

starkerealm · June 2018

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

This is a classic example of your average player in ESO, especially on console. Remember, console now accounts for 2/3 of the ESO playerbase.

You can't seriously believe this is an average player. A person that does no effort whatsoever to figure out the mechanics of the game should not be used as a baseline for difficulty. Else you can just as well remove all those mechanics.
And the fact that he made it to 600+ CP playing like this shows the difficulty is ridiculously low...

what it also shows that all those claims how much harder Skyrim is are blatantly false AND exaggerated. becasue this player? that is how they play SKYRIM.

and yes. difficulty like this SHOULD be used as baseline.

Skyrim is a single player game and therefore not comparable for the purpose of saying how an MMO should be.

It is very typical for single player games to have a difficulty setting whereas it is not common in MMORPGs open world content.

I'm aware. but more then ones I have seem people requesting higher difficulty - claim that Skyrim was hard and part of the reason why ESO is not a true ES game, becasue its that much easier.

and becasue ESO IS an MMO, difficulty should be scaled to be as accesible as possible, at least in overworld/quest content. which is why we DO have 3 difficulty settings for dungeon and trial content ALREADY. and I'm totally cool if that sort of difficulty setting is expanded to more instanced content, including solo quests. but baseline difficulty HAS to remain what it is right now.

the so-called good old days of release ESO didn't go so well for ESO, or it wouldn't be changed into what it is right now.

issue is the that the baseline difficulty= no difficulty.

No. No difficulty for you? Sure. No difficulty for me? Yeah. No difficulty for everyone posting in this thread? Probably.

That's not the issue. Multiple developers, experienced studios, have chased the elusive, "hardcore," MMO demographic. They've put together games designed to appeal to only the most elite players out there as their overland content, and... they failed.

I don't mean the games didn't work. I mean, the population quickly dwindled to an unmanageable state and their games sank fast.

So, as it turns out, maybe marketing a game that, maybe 10k people can actually play, isn't a sound business decision. Especially when the the population dries up, and those 10k players go elsewhere because there hasn't been a content update in over a year.

I get the desire for a Dark Souls MMO that rakes you over the coals, but, the truth is, the market just isn't there for an MMO like that. Single player games, with lower post-launch maintenance costs? Sure, but not an MMO.

starkerealm · June 2018

mocap wrote: »

again - the problem is that too many content is easy. Example to illustrate it:
- Khenarthi's roost is easy, ok. Start location, big tutorial;
- Auridon is easy, well ok. First big location, soft start;
- Grahtwood is easy. Hmm, well, ok, many other locations ahead;
- Greenshade is easy. What the hell?
- Malabal tor is easy. WTF?
- Reapers march is easy. WAAAAAT?
- another 10 big locations are easy. *sigh*
- all DLC content is easy..

<after 400+ hours of play>

Whoa! 15 danjens and some trials are not easy!

Well, spelling seems to be a challenge for you. Also, remembering what it was like when you didn't know what you were doing.

The funny thing is, that there still is a difficulty progression from Aurdion, through to Reaper's March. It's just not stat inflation. The enemies you face will be using progressively more complex mechanics. Not, all the time, but new tricks start filtering in. It's really hard to pick up on this as an experienced player because we internalized all of that years ago, and there are places to run across some of those mechanics much earlier.

Truth is, if you can pull north of 10k DPS you can smear everything in overland without paying attention. If you're struggling to pull 2k, then, yeah, there's a challenge to be had.

Kamatsu · June 2018

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

i don't think it's the hardcore,but then again I don't t think it's quite all players that want absolutely no resistance either.So middle ground more than like,which still means we should up the difficulty.

Here's a hint - the majority are the casual / easy-going / play-for-fun types. Especially in MMO's - a classic example of this is WoW, which has for the past 8+ years been trying to push people into raiding / hardcore content because the dev's are sad that so few ppl ever experienced the content. They are so desperate to force ppl to play content they don't want that they are now forcing ppl to do the easy "Looking-For-Raid" raids to complete the Legion main story.

Back in 2012 a few WoW dev's admitted on the old WoW forums that the reason they were changing Raiding for WotLK was because so few people ever set foot in a raid, that the vast majority of their player's were put off by hard raids were and were content to do zone/alliance quest's solo. This was done in response to questions as to why WoW's hardest raid was being moved to be the entry level raid in LK..

They stated at only 6-7% of all active players had ever even set foot in a raid, 4-5% had cleared at least the starting raid, 1% had made it to the hardest raid, and less than 0.5% had cleared it. This in a MMO that was "known" for it's raids & raiding community... had less than 10% of it's player base ever even trying raids. This is why they were making the raids easier, this is why at the time they were looking at making a LFR system that worked similar to LFG - let you queue into an easier version of a raid.

Then as expansions came they started putting more and more things behind harder content walls - things that were the main interest of casuals, story players, etc. Things like crafting recipes, pets, etc. Till Legion came along and now they have locked main story completion behind raiding.

They aren't doing this because people like or want to raid. They are doing this because the vast majority of the players avoid the raids, avoid the hard-version dungeons, etc... only the raiders, hardcore, etc like & want to go into that content. So to be justify to investor's the $$$ they spend on working on that content... they have to force players into that content. If they didn't lock story, recipes, pets, etc behind hard-content walls (ie hard-version dungeons, raiding, etc) they'd have less than 10% of their players doing that content (as they know & have proved in the past).

BTW - there's a very good reason that hunter's made up the majority of players, at least up to 2012/2013 (I dunno what it's like now). This was the 1 class that could be played with the least effort, needed the least thinking, etc. You could sic pet at enemy, auto-attack and occasionally click 'heal pet' now and again and beat the PvE zone quest's . You could even melee enemies and still complete the quest's... no thinking needed, no stress... the vast majority of WoW's player's went for the easy cheese class and ddin't want to make things hard or anything.

And in LK a huge # of ppl jumped onto the DK & Ret Paladin badndwagon's. You know why? Because they were so OP they could stomp PvE content completely undergeared... just press 1 or 2 buttons and everything exploded. They were extremely easy to play with little thinking needed... they made content easy.

Rain_Greyraven · June 2018

Kolache wrote: »

Dude, I am a casual! That's the hilarious part. You can't be a "hardcore quester" there is no such thing. People are getting labeled as hardcore for saying the game's overland content that they want to focus on is too easy. If they're wanting to focus on overland content... pssst... they're probably not hardcore.

I'm not interested in veteran DLC trial hard mode stuff. I just want to continue to play Skyrim online and kill stuff in a multiplayer environment. Overland is my jam, or at least I wish it was... and it doesn't have to be the end times just because ZOS adjusts scaling or even attempts to ponder creative ways to make more people feel engaged without totally utterly over-dramatically destroying the game for others.

Sorry dude, your justifications and reasoning just doesn't ring true to me, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I will give you that no one is asking for overland group content, but they are asking for the overland content to be much more difficult than it is now without regard of how that will effect many older, lesser skilled and yes disabled gamers...they are basically saying screw those groups as long as they can stroke their egos for their own selfish needs.

You can spin it any way you wish and claim to be part of the effective community all you wish (which is a very old social engineering tactic) but in the end the results are the same.....marginalized groups being left out in the cold despite how much they spend on the game in favor of the self described elite who nine times out of ten pays little to nothing....because you can more often than not link them with the Free and Now cult that plagues these forums.

That's all I have to say on it, though I'm sure there is a metric crap ton of people that will be damned if they sit idly by and let folks who basically spent maybe 20 bucks for their experience to dictate what the difficulty level should be.

Hurbster · June 2018

Hang on, if you want 'hard-core' we have trials, dungeons, maelstrom ect, ect.

DanteYoda · June 2018

I don't play gaming for difficulty i play them to socialize and just enjoy myself after a stressful day..

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Dude, I am a casual! That's the hilarious part. You can't be a "hardcore quester" there is no such thing. People are getting labeled as hardcore for saying the game's overland content that they want to focus on is too easy. If they're wanting to focus on overland content... pssst... they're probably not hardcore.

I'm not interested in veteran DLC trial hard mode stuff. I just want to continue to play Skyrim online and kill stuff in a multiplayer environment. Overland is my jam, or at least I wish it was... and it doesn't have to be the end times just because ZOS adjusts scaling or even attempts to ponder creative ways to make more people feel engaged without totally utterly over-dramatically destroying the game for others.

Sorry dude, your justifications and reasoning just doesn't ring true to me, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I will give you that no one is asking for overland group content, but they are asking for the overland content to be much more difficult than it is now without regard of how that will effect many older, lesser skilled and yes disabled gamers...they are basically saying screw those groups as long as they can stroke their egos for their own selfish needs.

You can spin it any way you wish and claim to be part of the effective community all you wish (which is a very old social engineering tactic) but in the end the results are the same.....marginalized groups being left out in the cold despite how much they spend on the game in favor of the self described elite who nine times out of ten pays little to nothing....because you can more often than not link them with the Free and Now cult that plagues these forums.

That's all I have to say on it, though I'm sure there is a metric crap ton of people that will be damned if they sit idly by and let folks who basically spent maybe 20 bucks for their experience to dictate what the difficulty level should be.

If you aim a game at a marginal group you get marginal populations.. The masses leave "because its not what they want" and the game dies, the game makes no money and closes..

Every online hardcore aimed game dies, because the customers that want it are marginal at best..

Taleof2Cities · June 2018

Drummerx04 · June 2018

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the "Craglorn was a dead zone because it was too hard for people" argument.

Craglorn was actually dead because:

There was practically no reward for doing the content.
The sets that were good from crag at release got replaced very quickly
The actual quests within the zone required other 1-3 other player bodies to actually progress in the quest line even if you could solo the content.
Daily quests had garbage rewards.
The Zone was v14 for months after v16 was introduced, so you pretty much couldn't even sell the gear from there.
The trials didn't get scaled up for well over a year.

Craglorn has been pretty busy since it got scaled up to cp160 AND given good rewards AND you can now complete quests without a mandated 4 man group.

It's all about giving people an actual reason to play the content, not whether or not the content caters to the lowest tier player skill levels.

Rain_Greyraven · June 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

I don't play gaming for difficulty i play them to socialize and just enjoy myself after a stressful day..

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Dude, I am a casual! That's the hilarious part. You can't be a "hardcore quester" there is no such thing. People are getting labeled as hardcore for saying the game's overland content that they want to focus on is too easy. If they're wanting to focus on overland content... pssst... they're probably not hardcore.

I'm not interested in veteran DLC trial hard mode stuff. I just want to continue to play Skyrim online and kill stuff in a multiplayer environment. Overland is my jam, or at least I wish it was... and it doesn't have to be the end times just because ZOS adjusts scaling or even attempts to ponder creative ways to make more people feel engaged without totally utterly over-dramatically destroying the game for others.

Sorry dude, your justifications and reasoning just doesn't ring true to me, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I will give you that no one is asking for overland group content, but they are asking for the overland content to be much more difficult than it is now without regard of how that will effect many older, lesser skilled and yes disabled gamers...they are basically saying screw those groups as long as they can stroke their egos for their own selfish needs.

You can spin it any way you wish and claim to be part of the effective community all you wish (which is a very old social engineering tactic) but in the end the results are the same.....marginalized groups being left out in the cold despite how much they spend on the game in favor of the self described elite who nine times out of ten pays little to nothing....because you can more often than not link them with the Free and Now cult that plagues these forums.

That's all I have to say on it, though I'm sure there is a metric crap ton of people that will be damned if they sit idly by and let folks who basically spent maybe 20 bucks for their experience to dictate what the difficulty level should be.

If you aim a game at a marginal group you get marginal populations.. The masses leave "because its not what they want" and the game dies, the game makes no money and closes..

Every online hardcore aimed game dies, because the customers that want it are marginal at best..

You are right...A Marginal group yes, most definitely......several marginal groups turn out to be a significant part of the population add to that the fact that most of these folks actually spend much more than your hard core gamers who usually spend little to nothing (because their philosophy is everything should be earned by superior skills) and you have a rather large loss potential.

Nova Sky · June 2018

I remember the pre-Tamriel One world of ESO — and what I recall seeing were veteran zones that were, more or less, ghost zones since at that time DC/AD/EP players were separated by instances even in PvE play, in addition to the overland PvE content being much more difficult.

I like the post-Tamriel One world of ESO. Damn game looks alive in almost every zone, at the very least.

AuldWolf · June 2018

@Rain_Greyraven

That's what I've tried to explain to them, too. I've seen hardcore people say in many games that they hate cash shops because they believe everything should be earned in game. So where's the money coming from, then? Hardcore players don't ever seem to understand the value of money as a support mechanism to others.

I'd go so far as to say that they can't. Heart of Thorns proves this, as has been mentioned so many times now that it's a broken record. It's also really the only proof you need.

GW2 as a Casual Game: The cash shop is healthy, lots of things are being sold all the time. ANet is stable, yay!
GW2 as a Hardcore Game: The cash shop is dead, nothing is being sold at all. ANet is about to die, oh dear.

Even if there was a push from hardcore players, it wouldn't matter. The vast majority of them seem incapable of understanding and they wouldn't even want to. It's as I pointed out with the factotum thing, where they were angry at ZOS for selling something they had to 'earn' (air-quotes mode in full effect, there). They can't conceive of the idea of buying something because they look at the game as a job.

They look at the game as a job. They work. They expect the game and the developer to reward them.

They expect the developer to put in the time and money to suit them because they erroneously see themselves as workers in another's employ, it's bizarre, but it's absolutely the truth. Look at how they won't set their own difficulty. Casual players will find their own fun by roleplaying between expansions and whatnot, but hardcore players will get fed up and leave as soon as they've blasted through the content on hard mode because they don't see it as theirs to have fun with, it's work.

Casuals understand it isn't work. It's a video game. It's escapism. It's fun. You pay for it to have an enjoyable escape from the daily grind of life.

I'm not saying that hardcore people are wrong-headed or broken, but what I absolutely am saying is that you cannot make money from them. Ever. In any way. We keep pointing this out and it's something they can't argue against so their arguments tend to veer towards the illogical, specious, or insulting. Wildstar tried to appeal to them, was Wildstar a huge success? No, it was dead on arrival. Why? Hardcore players saw themselves as Wildstar workers and it was Carbine's (the developer's) responsibility to reward them for their work.

I'm not going to tell hardcore players that they're wrong-headed. I believe in personal freedoms. They can do them. What I will say though is that there cannot be money made from the hardcore contingent. Ever. And what happens when a developer appeals to them is that the game dies, since the hardcore contingent expect incoming rewards rather than understanding that they should reward the developer for crafting the game they enjoy.

No money has ever been made off of the hardcore outside of eSports. And eSports is a very, very, very tiny chance for success. Battleborn attracted a casual audience but the developer tried to push for eSports as their source of money and it killed them. If you don't succeed in the very cutthroat field of eSports, if you don't succeed FAST, you're dead. You're dead because you cannot count on hardcore players for support. Hardcore players won't spend because that's not how it works.

The hardcore mindset is this: I paid the entry fee. Now I'm going to work my arse off at this job and expect the very best rewards. When the work dries up, I'm leaving.

Where's the money in that? They're expecting, not giving.

The casual mindset is this: Oh man, this is fun! I love this! I love roleplaying, here. I love making alts! Sure I completed the latest expansion, but I'm just going to derp around with exploration, I'm going to just do my own thing and have a blast. And I'm going to support them by buying cool things off the cash shop. Wheeee!

And there's a lot of money in that.

The hardcore contingent see it as a job. The casual majority see it as a vacation.

Do you think that you'd get money off of people who think they're working for you, or do you think you'd get money from people who're enjoying your vacationing spot? My partner and I have been talking about this and it's thanks to them that I really clicked with what the hardcore problem is -- that they see it as a job that they demand to be rewarded for, they don't see why they should reward others (even the developer) for their work.

And that's why money can't come from the hardcore.

Like I said, I feel like the casual players are subsidising the hardcore right now. We're paying for their fun. I know I am, but I'm doing it because I know ZOS will make their goofy mistakes. What I think their dungeon packs should be are public dungeons, not trials. I think they're hurting themselves by doing trials. They'll realise that, though, when they do their first public dungeon pack and it's successful by so many powers more compared to the trials that they'll never turn back.

For hardcore players to be catered to as much as they want, they need to severely adjust their perspective. But they won't. I don't think they can. In fact, I'd say they can't. Even PvPers are much more likely to spend than the hardcore, at least a PvPer may realise that this is a vacation, not a job.

Edit: Basically, the hardcore minority is so loud because they believe they're entitled to more based on the 'work' that they do. If you look at how they talk, how they think, how they behave? See: The factotum issue. If you look at that, it's easy to see. This is why they think that the game should be tailored to them despite putting no money in, they see the game as work, they can't see it any other way.

Casual players see it as a fun vacation. Their hosts should be rewarded for providing them with fun, they like their vacation spot and they don't want it to close down. So the casuals put money out to keep the local vacation spot business alive. They're having fun, they don't want it to go away.

I've tried to explain this, but it's exactly the reason you'll never make money off of the hardcore. It's also the reason why the hardcore believe they're so entitled.

Rain_Greyraven · June 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

@Rain_Greyraven

That's what I've tried to explain to them, too. I've seen hardcore people say in many games that they hate cash shops because they believe everything should be earned in game. So where's the money coming from, then? Hardcore players don't ever seem to understand the value of money as a support mechanism to others.

I'd go so far as to say that they can't. Heart of Thorns proves this, as has been mentioned so many times now that it's a broken record. It's also really the only proof you need.

GW2 as a Casual Game: The cash shop is healthy, lots of things are being sold all the time. ANet is stable, yay!
GW2 as a Hardcore Game: The cash shop is dead, nothing is being sold at all. ANet is about to die, oh dear.

Even if there was a push from hardcore players, it wouldn't matter. The vast majority of them seem incapable of understanding and they wouldn't even want to. It's as I pointed out with the factotum thing, where they were angry at ZOS for selling something they had to 'earn' (air-quotes mode in full effect, there). They can't conceive of the idea of buying something because they look at the game as a job.

They look at the game as a job. They work. They expect the game and the developer to reward them.

They expect the developer to put in the time and money to suit them because they erroneously see themselves as workers in another's employ, it's bizarre, but it's absolutely the truth. Look at how they won't set their own difficulty. Casual players will find their own fun by roleplaying between expansions and whatnot, but hardcore players will get fed up and leave as soon as they've blasted through the content on hard mode because they don't see it as theirs to have fun with, it's work.

Casuals understand it isn't work. It's a video game. It's escapism. It's fun. You pay for it to have an enjoyable escape from the daily grind of life.

I'm not saying that hardcore people are wrong-headed or broken, but what I absolutely am saying is that you cannot make money from them. Ever. In any way. We keep pointing this out and it's something they can't argue against so their arguments tend to veer towards the illogical, specious, or insulting. Wildstar tried to appeal to them, was Wildstar a huge success? No, it was dead on arrival. Why? Hardcore players saw themselves as Wildstar workers and it was Carbine's (the developer's) responsibility to reward them for their work.

I'm not going to tell hardcore players that they're wrong-headed. I believe in personal freedoms. They can do them. What I will say though is that there cannot be money made from the hardcore contingent. Ever. And what happens when a developer appeals to them is that the game dies, since the hardcore contingent expect incoming rewards rather than understanding that they should reward the developer for crafting the game they enjoy.

No money has ever been made off of the hardcore outside of eSports. And eSports is a very, very, very tiny chance for success. Battleborn attracted a casual audience but the developer tried to push for eSports as their source of money and it killed them. If you don't succeed in the very cutthroat field of eSports, if you don't succeed FAST, you're dead. You're dead because you cannot count on hardcore players for support. Hardcore players won't spend because that's not how it works.

The hardcore mindset is this: I paid the entry fee. Now I'm going to work my arse off at this job and expect the very best rewards. When the work dries up, I'm leaving.

Where's the money in that? They're expecting, not giving.

The casual mindset is this: Oh man, this is fun! I love this! I love roleplaying, here. I love making alts! Sure I completed the latest expansion, but I'm just going to derp around with exploration, I'm going to just do my own thing and have a blast. And I'm going to support them by buying cool things off the cash shop. Wheeee!

And there's a lot of money in that.

The hardcore contingent see it as a job. The casual majority see it as a vacation.

Do you think that you'd get money off of people who think they're working for you, or do you think you'd get money from people who're enjoying your vacationing spot? My partner and I have been talking about this and it's thanks to them that I really clicked with what the hardcore problem is -- that they see it as a job that they demand to be rewarded for, they don't see why they should reward others (even the developer) for their work.

And that's why money can't come from the hardcore.

Like I said, I feel like the casual players are subsidising the hardcore right now. We're paying for their fun. I know I am, but I'm doing it because I know ZOS will make their goofy mistakes. What I think their dungeon packs should be are public dungeons, not trials. I think they're hurting themselves by doing trials. They'll realise that, though, when they do their first public dungeon pack and it's successful by so many powers more compared to the trials that they'll never turn back.

For hardcore players to be catered to as much as they want, they need to severely adjust their perspective. But they won't. I don't think they can. In fact, I'd say they can't. Even PvPers are much more likely to spend than the hardcore, at least a PvPer may realise that this is a vacation, not a job.

Edit: Basically, the hardcore minority is so loud because they believe they're entitled to more based on the 'work' that they do. If you look at how they talk, how they think, how they behave? See: The factotum issue. If you look at that, it's easy to see. This is why they think that the game should be tailored to them despite putting no money in, they see the game as work, they can't see it any other way.

Casual players see it as a fun vacation. Their hosts should be rewarded for providing them with fun, they like their vacation spot and they don't want it to close down. So the casuals put money out to keep the local vacation spot business alive. They're having fun, they don't want it to go away.

I've tried to explain this, but it's exactly the reason you'll never make money off of the hardcore. It's also the reason why the hardcore believe they're so entitled.

@AuldWolf spot on you just described this in a much more eloquent way than I ever could.

Elvent · June 2018

Ravingar wrote: »

now vets AND newbies are complaining about how easy overland content is.

No I'm not. I enjoy the overland content and currently leveling another character.