JJBoomer wrote: »

I see so many threads complaining about how OP mag sorcs are. But more often than not, those threads seem to just want mag sorcs to have nothing to make them easy kills in PVP, something that shouldn't affect PVE, but that's another issue. From my perspective, all the "nerf mag sorcs" just seem to be people asking for their class to be better, so make something else easier to kill? It rarely actually seems to be for balance's sake.

Can someone explain this to me? This is the only game i've ever played where i've seen people BEG for nerfing lol.

Just FYI I play sorc in pvp as well.

If we're talking magicka sorcs in pvp then;

They have the best mobility, sustained damage (sustain isn't a problem for them because lich) and CC in the game right now and the strongest defensive shields in the game.

Crowd Control:
Rune Cage got buffed so now every sorc and their mothers and the guy down the road are using it (CC's you upon dealing damage to them). This is also extremely frustrating because due to lag breaking free from this abomination of a CC feels near impossible and on top of that the animation is sloppy causing the CC to end up being longer than its actual duration. Its far too effective at the moment due to the state of the game and its general strength.

Streak provides a relatively good stun as well though its far more kind than rune cage.

Mobility:
Streak provides them with an extreme amount of mobility including the ability to get to places on the map where a vast majority cannot without some ridiculous glitchy jump exploits. While it does cost more per use in under 5 seconds it is relatively redundant as that cost increase is negated by the fact the lich set exists.

Damage:
They will run flame reach (I cant remember if that the correct morph name I hate the ability and dont use it myself and yes I am aware that its a destro ability and not a sorc ability) which is a long range spammable hard stun (knock back) CC that does a decent amount of damage but is then forced into a must slot because of the consistency in which it procs crystal fragments free cast. Which is the whole point of running it beyond the destro ability slotted passive.

They will also run mage wrath which is one of the most forgiving executes in the entire game you really dont need to do anything just spam it during a siege and you will get AP no problem that and your other spammable through flame reach and then the free cast when it is up.

THEN they have the most busted passive in the entire game which is implosion which procs so much and for so much damage in pvp that you literally in most cases cannot react to it, they just mage wrath or have a concussion dot or anything to do with lightning hitting you and it will proc, its biggest frustration is that it usually chains with mage wrath meaning that you basically get not just one execute but a second one on top of that through the passive. Its the most ridiculous thing any class has ever had in this game since launch. (there is of course other things like atronach and overload which in battlegrounds are just gross but meh). Why should they have a passive that in a nut shell wins the fight in a lot of cases? especially vs stam players. Mag players can barely survive it with harness alone.

and before someone uses the battle roar/argonian arguement 1) not everyone wants to run just argonians in pvp and 2) not everyones a DK and the battle roar is crap in most cases when its more than 3vs1.

Theres also curse but someone linked it already so i shouldnt have to explain.

Shields:
Hardened ward is one of the most effective and and powerful shields if not the most powerful in the game you can tank more damage with that shield than some tanks can tank which is ridiculous let alone the fact they like others can stack multiple shields but they are the only ones with access too a shield of that size in PvP which usually ends up being healing ward and hardened and then they sling lights champion into that (resto ult) which basically makes them immortal for a while.

Naturally you can just stun them to try deal with the shields as quick as possible but ultimately most people who play sorc will be ready for it and counter it with immo pots and such.

TD;LR They have too much going for them in pvp everyone knows it but nobody wants to talk about it because they love their easy mode class. I.e the sorcs mains dont want to discuss it properly and thus the community that does just gets angry and rages about them and then the others just dont want to get nerfed so they dont say anything.

Rework implosion and nerf the rune cage stun and ill be happy.

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Crowd Control:
Rune Cage got buffed so now every sorc and their mothers and the guy down the road are using it (CC's you upon dealing damage to them). This is also extremely frustrating because due to lag breaking free from this abomination of a CC feels near impossible and on top of that the animation is sloppy causing the CC to end up being longer than its actual duration. Its far too effective at the moment due to the state of the game and its general strength.

Streak provides a relatively good stun as well though its far more kind than rune cage.

Mobility:
Streak provides them with an extreme amount of mobility including the ability to get to places on the map where a vast majority cannot without some ridiculous glitchy jump exploits. While it does cost more per use in under 5 seconds it is relatively redundant as that cost increase is negated by the fact the lich set exists.

Damage:
They will run flame reach (I cant remember if that the correct morph name I hate the ability and dont use it myself and yes I am aware that its a destro ability and not a sorc ability) which is a long range spammable hard stun (knock back) CC that does a decent amount of damage but is then forced into a must slot because of the consistency in which it procs crystal fragments free cast. Which is the whole point of running it beyond the destro ability slotted passive.

They will also run mage wrath which is one of the most forgiving executes in the entire game you really dont need to do anything just spam it during a siege and you will get AP no problem that and your other spammable through flame reach and then the free cast when it is up.

THEN they have the most busted passive in the entire game which is implosion which procs so much and for so much damage in pvp that you literally in most cases cannot react to it, they just mage wrath or have a concussion dot or anything to do with lightning hitting you and it will proc, its biggest frustration is that it usually chains with mage wrath meaning that you basically get not just one execute but a second one on top of that through the passive. Its the most ridiculous thing any class has ever had in this game since launch. (there is of course other things like atronach and overload which in battlegrounds are just gross but meh). Why should they have a passive that in a nut shell wins the fight in a lot of cases? especially vs stam players. Mag players can barely survive it with harness alone.

and before someone uses the battle roar/argonian arguement 1) not everyone wants to run just argonians in pvp and 2) not everyones a DK and the battle roar is crap in most cases when its more than 3vs1.

Theres also curse but someone linked it already so i shouldnt have to explain.

Shields:
Hardened ward is one of the most effective and and powerful shields if not the most powerful in the game you can tank more damage with that shield than some tanks can tank which is ridiculous let alone the fact they like others can stack multiple shields but they are the only ones with access too a shield of that size in PvP which usually ends up being healing ward and hardened and then they sling lights champion into that (resto ult) which basically makes them immortal for a while.

Naturally you can just stun them to try deal with the shields as quick as possible but ultimately most people who play sorc will be ready for it and counter it with immo pots and such.

TD;LR They have too much going for them in pvp everyone knows it but nobody wants to talk about it because they love their easy mode class. I.e the sorcs mains dont want to discuss it properly and thus the community that does just gets angry and rages about them and then the others just dont want to get nerfed so they dont say anything.

Rework implosion and nerf the rune cage stun and ill be happy.

It's nice that you only try to highlight the upsides of skills while completely ignoring the downsides. Deliberately? Agenda? So I do your job and complete your one sided essay for the points I find too biased.

Crowd Control:
So your issue is that lag in general complicates break free? Much sorc specific. Only thing I could agree on is that the unavoidable damage from cage in a burst form is bad design. But so do most sorcs agree on it. Nothing to see here.


Mobility:
Only things streak got going is the AoE stun, right about that.
You mentioned the possibility to reach otherwise unavaiable places. That becomes only half true when you can simply gap close after them. Yes, others might can't reach those places on their own but it's far from a free escape.

Have you seen the videos where people use major expedition alone to sprint after a streaking sorc? That's possible because of how the skill is designed: short range (much shorter than gap closers btw), whiplash effect at the beginning and the end, uphill terrain reduces it's range greatly, downhill costs much time since you will fall down in a straight line. All that on top of snares, gap closers, stuns etc.

So yes, streak fatigue is a massive topic. Honestly you're the first person who is ignorant enough to call it a non-issue. Also great job in pigeonholing an entire class into a specific set. Your mindset really shines here.


Damage:

You rightfully acknowledged it's a destro staff ability. So no reason to complain about in a sorc thread, right? What you must ask yourself is why is it a must slot? It's not the absolute best way to proc frags since it's expensive and pulse does 3 different kinds of dmg, is cheaper, unreflectable and has better chances to proc status effects + minor aoe. It's a must slot because ZoS decided to take a fair, easily countered stun from their bread and butter class skill. "Because dmg abilites shouldn't stun" (good one, especially with incap and rune cage around). This also means sorcs are/were somewhat forced into master destro to make reach sustainable.

About wrath: what is your issue here? "Free AP" during a siege? You could get just as much from spamming mutagen while sieging. How it interacts with the delayed sorc toolkit? That's actually a nice thing. All class skills from all classes should harmonize within themselfs. Or is it the kill stealing in BG? Which is first and foremost a scoring issue. No need to nerf a class because scoring design is suboptimal. I didn't see "nerf cloak because thieve's guild and dark brotherhood quests" requests.

About Implosion: At the beginning I'd ask you what you really want here? One paragraph above you critizied wrath for kill stealing. Means it's obvious strong enough to know you out on it's own when it procs. So Implosion shouldn't do anything at all. If you aren't unlucky and got hit by a lightning dot (ultimate, lightning form, 2 ground AoEs, some proc sets) you'd be dead anyway.

15% health threshold, let's assume average 25k health, means 3,75k. Light attacks, reach, pulse, wrath - that's everything else that procs it - would kill you even without implosion. You must be really unlucky if a RNG proc sets procs a dot on you that procs an 6% RNG passive on you. It's annoying, sure, but in a game full of RNG it's not surprising. Implosion is barely an issue on a mag sorc. But I admit, implosion is much more reliable on a dot stam sorc. But we're not talking about them in this thread.

What's your issue with curse? What Daus said? I can't take that serious.

Shields:

Hardened Ward is good but Absorb Magicka is what makes shieldstacking sustainable against mag opponents. BTW hardened ward, resto ward and light's champion are avaiable to everyone. There were even some cases of stam toons running resto ult btw.
And tanking more than a tank. Sure, 1v1 maybe but not in ordinary groups. But you already know that, you just choose to not mention it.
And yes, nobody likes shield stacking. Not even sorcs. But given the class layout it becomes another must, at least until they gave a reliable, non-RNG hot (looking at you surge) or buff their mobility. But then people will cry because they then must slot a gap closer to deal with sorcs. Oh no!

TD;LR

Don't know what rock you're living under but the forum is constantly filled with nerf requests. You discredited yourself over the whole post but this one is rather obvious.

But sure, rework implosion to something useful and fair and I'd be happy as well. Rework runecage seems the way to go. At least we can agree on these points. But we both know people wouldn't be happy then. "Overload, fury, curse, streak, shieldstacking too OP, please nerf!!11" It's already in the forums, just look at the many threads.

I started in beta as a mag sorc, not knowing what to do and always stuck with him ... my one and only. ❤️

templesus wrote: »

After a few more days of duels and BGs against the top PvPers on my server, I have come to the conclusion that Rune Cage is far too powerful on sorc. I have beat the top players on each respective class this patch, mag nb, mag dk, magplar stamblade etc (im a 2h/bow stamplar), but when faced with a mag sorc there is severe disparity. Fury>Curse>Meteor>Rune Cage combo is so broken that average level mag sorcs who were nobodies prior to summerset are now giving me trouble. This is where the line needs to be drawn, when a player with far inferior skill level is able to kill someone because of the class they are playing, something needs to be done. There is little to no counterplay against this combo and it is allowing sorc to dominate all facets of PvP. All that needs to be done is make rune cage blockable. Given, this won't stop sorc QQ (people have cried about it since launch), but the class is actually over performing right now and this will bring it more in line with other classes.

And do not try and rebuttal me trying to justify rune cage being undodgeable and unblockable because night blades have one as I am a 2h/Bow stamplar and dizzying swing is my CC so I do not care whatsoever. (Javelin misses half the time, sure so does dizzying but at least when it doesn't land I keep my stamina.)

Only defensive rune should be unblockable and undodgeable. Giving a 28 meter damaging CC these attributes is so obviously a bad idea it's astonishing that they actually implemented it.

Basically, sorcs have a good execute. So, they have a lot of killing blows. There are plenty of other strong builds that aren’t sorcs though.

Magsorc is, beside stamnb, the easiest class in pvp currently. Almost everyone switching from any other class to magsorc can confirm this. The skills are like a natural burstcombo, bevause of their delay (curse 3 sec, cf proc, mage's fury that hit's around 1 second delayed and is an auto-execute). Because of this it's really easy to get good burst-combos as mage.
But it also has the best survivability (shield stacking + streaking). It's easy to reset a fight, shield/buff up again, and in. Because of this it's just annoying to fight against them in cyro.
Yeah: there are more classes with some of those advantages, but magsorc is the only one combining all in one class.
The annoying thing is the delayed death recognition vom eso. Once you're low life it doesn't matter if you heal or shield yourself up to 100% again, because mage's fury will still kill you. This skill seems to have a delayed recognition. You can see this in bg's really often - > getting lowlife - > shielding or healing in last second almost full life while going LoF - > BAM dead by mage's fury. They should fix this skill and ppl will complain much less about magsorcs.
And another annoying thing: almost every magsorc just thinks he's op. I've fought against so many magsorcs in cyro and bg's. And at least 90% is bunny jumping, tbagging. Once you start chasing them, they get out of range easily (even with stunned they just break free, 2-3 streaks, reshield, that's it). Also most sorcs aren't even interested in getting a good balance and simply get offended if you tell them their class is easy.

The ONLY result we'll see after all this crying?

They'll leave shields and rune cage as is.

But they'll cut crystal shards damage in half, will nerf pet curse and then break the execute.

So you'll all keep crying like today but us, pure PvEers, shall have our game turned into sheet once again.

I just wish Sorcs were a disabled option in PvP, so we could play our trials in peace.

4 freaking years of asinine, useless, pointless nerfs mainly affecting PvE, and the only result are n + 1 threads like this.

1v2 sorc and your dead INSTANTLY.

I dont mean to say that you should beat 2 sorcs on your own ...

Rune cage is an absolute scandal.

@Mojomonkeyman

Rune Cage was discussed at length in the Sorc thread before Summerset. It’s not like every Sorc didn’t call it, and I specifically pleaded that the changes shouldn’t go live. ZOS just didn’t listen.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Crowd Control:
Rune Cage got buffed so now every sorc and their mothers and the guy down the road are using it (CC's you upon dealing damage to them). This is also extremely frustrating because due to lag breaking free from this abomination of a CC feels near impossible and on top of that the animation is sloppy causing the CC to end up being longer than its actual duration. Its far too effective at the moment due to the state of the game and its general strength.

Streak provides a relatively good stun as well though its far more kind than rune cage.

Mobility:
Streak provides them with an extreme amount of mobility including the ability to get to places on the map where a vast majority cannot without some ridiculous glitchy jump exploits. While it does cost more per use in under 5 seconds it is relatively redundant as that cost increase is negated by the fact the lich set exists.

Damage:
They will run flame reach (I cant remember if that the correct morph name I hate the ability and dont use it myself and yes I am aware that its a destro ability and not a sorc ability) which is a long range spammable hard stun (knock back) CC that does a decent amount of damage but is then forced into a must slot because of the consistency in which it procs crystal fragments free cast. Which is the whole point of running it beyond the destro ability slotted passive.

They will also run mage wrath which is one of the most forgiving executes in the entire game you really dont need to do anything just spam it during a siege and you will get AP no problem that and your other spammable through flame reach and then the free cast when it is up.

THEN they have the most busted passive in the entire game which is implosion which procs so much and for so much damage in pvp that you literally in most cases cannot react to it, they just mage wrath or have a concussion dot or anything to do with lightning hitting you and it will proc, its biggest frustration is that it usually chains with mage wrath meaning that you basically get not just one execute but a second one on top of that through the passive. Its the most ridiculous thing any class has ever had in this game since launch. (there is of course other things like atronach and overload which in battlegrounds are just gross but meh). Why should they have a passive that in a nut shell wins the fight in a lot of cases? especially vs stam players. Mag players can barely survive it with harness alone.

and before someone uses the battle roar/argonian arguement 1) not everyone wants to run just argonians in pvp and 2) not everyones a DK and the battle roar is crap in most cases when its more than 3vs1.

Theres also curse but someone linked it already so i shouldnt have to explain.

Shields:
Hardened ward is one of the most effective and and powerful shields if not the most powerful in the game you can tank more damage with that shield than some tanks can tank which is ridiculous let alone the fact they like others can stack multiple shields but they are the only ones with access too a shield of that size in PvP which usually ends up being healing ward and hardened and then they sling lights champion into that (resto ult) which basically makes them immortal for a while.

Naturally you can just stun them to try deal with the shields as quick as possible but ultimately most people who play sorc will be ready for it and counter it with immo pots and such.

TD;LR They have too much going for them in pvp everyone knows it but nobody wants to talk about it because they love their easy mode class. I.e the sorcs mains dont want to discuss it properly and thus the community that does just gets angry and rages about them and then the others just dont want to get nerfed so they dont say anything.

Rework implosion and nerf the rune cage stun and ill be happy.

It's nice that you only try to highlight the upsides of skills while completely ignoring the downsides. Deliberately? Agenda? So I do your job and complete your one sided essay for the points I find too biased.

Crowd Control:
So your issue is that lag in general complicates break free? Much sorc specific. Only thing I could agree on is that the unavoidable damage from cage in a burst form is bad design. But so do most sorcs agree on it. Nothing to see here.


Mobility:
Only things streak got going is the AoE stun, right about that.
You mentioned the possibility to reach otherwise unavaiable places. That becomes only half true when you can simply gap close after them. Yes, others might can't reach those places on their own but it's far from a free escape.

Have you seen the videos where people use major expedition alone to sprint after a streaking sorc? That's possible because of how the skill is designed: short range (much shorter than gap closers btw), whiplash effect at the beginning and the end, uphill terrain reduces it's range greatly, downhill costs much time since you will fall down in a straight line. All that on top of snares, gap closers, stuns etc.

So yes, streak fatigue is a massive topic. Honestly you're the first person who is ignorant enough to call it a non-issue. Also great job in pigeonholing an entire class into a specific set. Your mindset really shines here.


Damage:

You rightfully acknowledged it's a destro staff ability. So no reason to complain about in a sorc thread, right? What you must ask yourself is why is it a must slot? It's not the absolute best way to proc frags since it's expensive and pulse does 3 different kinds of dmg, is cheaper, unreflectable and has better chances to proc status effects + minor aoe. It's a must slot because ZoS decided to take a fair, easily countered stun from their bread and butter class skill. "Because dmg abilites shouldn't stun" (good one, especially with incap and rune cage around). This also means sorcs are/were somewhat forced into master destro to make reach sustainable.

About wrath: what is your issue here? "Free AP" during a siege? You could get just as much from spamming mutagen while sieging. How it interacts with the delayed sorc toolkit? That's actually a nice thing. All class skills from all classes should harmonize within themselfs. Or is it the kill stealing in BG? Which is first and foremost a scoring issue. No need to nerf a class because scoring design is suboptimal. I didn't see "nerf cloak because thieve's guild and dark brotherhood quests" requests.

About Implosion: At the beginning I'd ask you what you really want here? One paragraph above you critizied wrath for kill stealing. Means it's obvious strong enough to know you out on it's own when it procs. So Implosion shouldn't do anything at all. If you aren't unlucky and got hit by a lightning dot (ultimate, lightning form, 2 ground AoEs, some proc sets) you'd be dead anyway.

15% health threshold, let's assume average 25k health, means 3,75k. Light attacks, reach, pulse, wrath - that's everything else that procs it - would kill you even without implosion. You must be really unlucky if a RNG proc sets procs a dot on you that procs an 6% RNG passive on you. It's annoying, sure, but in a game full of RNG it's not surprising. Implosion is barely an issue on a mag sorc. But I admit, implosion is much more reliable on a dot stam sorc. But we're not talking about them in this thread.

What's your issue with curse? What Daus said? I can't take that serious.

Shields:

Hardened Ward is good but Absorb Magicka is what makes shieldstacking sustainable against mag opponents. BTW hardened ward, resto ward and light's champion are avaiable to everyone. There were even some cases of stam toons running resto ult btw.
And tanking more than a tank. Sure, 1v1 maybe but not in ordinary groups. But you already know that, you just choose to not mention it.
And yes, nobody likes shield stacking. Not even sorcs. But given the class layout it becomes another must, at least until they gave a reliable, non-RNG hot (looking at you surge) or buff their mobility. But then people will cry because they then must slot a gap closer to deal with sorcs. Oh no!

TD;LR

Don't know what rock you're living under but the forum is constantly filled with nerf requests. You discredited yourself over the whole post but this one is rather obvious.

But sure, rework implosion to something useful and fair and I'd be happy as well. Rework runecage seems the way to go. At least we can agree on these points. But we both know people wouldn't be happy then. "Overload, fury, curse, streak, shieldstacking too OP, please nerf!!11" It's already in the forums, just look at the many threads.

*sigh* if you're done being smug I was merely voicing the general opinion of people ive talked to. The OP asked a question and I gave a response/explination based on the general opinion of people ive spoken too.

My only person problem with sorcs is implosion and mage wrath along with the problem everyone agrees with concerning rune cage, though I would be purely happy with a implosion rework.

Should note one thing, the balance of a class isn't purely down to their class abilities and passives but its how they interact with ALL abilities in the game as well which is why I brought up destructive reach as a lot of people ive spoken too hate how well it integrates with sorc set ups purely because of frag.

Emmagoldman wrote: »

@WaltherCarraway
I think that is probably pre morrowind from 2016. Magsorc was one of the hardest hitting and mobile classes and great 1 v 1 but hasnt won as I believe since november in duel competitions. Magblade can line up bigger burst though I feel it takes a slightly higher learning curve, stamblades can minor, major defile or stack into ult builds to apply incap, stamwarden has great mobility and even with the nerf, awesome burst

1) history: during the past, as the person above is stuck in, pirate skelton procd on shields. People blamed everything, yet when the set was nerfed, magsorc lost popluarity quickly.

2) It depends if its pve or pvp. For pve, magsorc has dominated for a long time but now is outdone by magblade. Dont feel like you need to reroll, its still fine to play. For pvers, the complaint was justified

3) In pvp, I think a vast majority of the complaints come from stamblades which are by far the most played class. Magsorc as a class is a HARD counter to the play style. We have either morph of rune with a hard cc, streak which can uncover a cloaked enemy and curse that leaves damage on them. With sloads, we are more deadly against them because it reveals cloak. I LOVE that people thought this set was going to make magsorcs qq. Can I say told you its bad?

4) magdk hard counter magsorcs. Talons and fossilize are nasty for us. Beating them takes kiting and a lot of pressure, and they can use up our stam pool fast which means ko for us. Lucky for us, magdk isnt a hugely popular class.

Exactly my thoughts about magsorcs vs stamblades. Stamblades are most popular stamina class, no wonder that magsorc as hard counter class is quite popular. Yes skill floor for mag sorcs is higher than for other light armoured classes, but the ceiling is also a bit lower. When I compare my magblade and magsorc I can tell that killing scrubs on sorcs is much faster, not easier as it's also very easy on magblade just faster. But my magblade thanks to shadow image, purge and cloak combo can escape almost any fight without worrying about enemies number.