Guild Store Etiquette

Violynne · June 2018

Yesterday, two members in a guild I belong to were having a discussion about one taking all the recipes from the bank (to supply his newly found guild) and claimed to have deposited gold to the guild for the transaction (we have no way of verifying this).

As the highest ranking member online, I offered my two cents about the transaction, but the person who "paid" for the recipes insists they've done nothing wrong as they deposited gold.

My reply was "The recipes aren't about making gold. They're for players to do their daily writs, or acquire common-but-not-easily-found blues and purples. They're not to be taken to start a new guild, no matter what the cost."

The player replied they paid far more than "market value" for the recipes (which were all green level), but I said this was not the point.

I replied:
"The bank is built on a trust system. Taking things from the bank doesn't require a deposit, but the honor system depends on players will make more deposits to help out and draw when they need, not want, to. By taking the recipes, you're validating the need to your new guild, not this one. Please restore the recipes withdrawn from the bank. I will message the guild officers to restore your gold once it's been proven you did deposit. We are not here to fund other guilds."

The person indicated the recipes had already been sold, but still questioned their action on why it was wrong.

So I decided to enlist the help of the members of the community.

Was it wrong for this person to take the recipes despite paying more than market value to set up their own guild?

Prof_Bawbag · June 2018

Other (please state way)

Depends on the guild. No one can answer that as different guilds, different etiquette required. If it goes against what's expect in that particular guild, then it's pretty straight forward what the answer to your question is. If people have a "take a penny, give a penny" policy, then there's nothing wrong with what the guy did.

Regardless though, he didn't outright rob the bank. Gave gold in return for the items he took. It's up to the GM and officers to decide if it's acceptable behaviour, not us.

Flaminir · June 2018

No (why not)

From the sounds of it there was no written rules for the guild bank or the individual concerned either wouldn't have done it, or you could just point to the rules and say 'see... not allowed'.

If you think certain rules should be in place then its often good to have them written down and communicated in a way that there can be no confusion, and officers can then act if those rules are broken.

The absence of written rules instantly renders pretty much all actions as acceptable.... humans all see things differently, and unless you specifically state what is/isn't allowed then you have to accept that stuff will happen.

In the absence of a written rule being broken it sounds like the player in question has acted ethically by paying for the items... especially if they paid over the market value for them.

Be glad you are talking about an ethical player who has paid you, rather than somebody just taking them and walking off

Violynne · June 2018

Flaminir wrote: »

Be glad you are talking about an ethical player who has paid you, rather than somebody just taking them and walking off

I think this is what started the discussion as we couldn't verify the gold was paid.

The GM hasn't been active in some time (personal issues, I believe) and I've not seen any officers online since I returned a couple of months ago.

I think the other person was upset because they saw the withdraws, but none of the gold deposits (not sure why this is blocked to members).

I didn't say the person was wrong, only to let them know why the items are made available in the trust system.

smacky · June 2018

Yes

Flaminir wrote: »

From the sounds of it there was no written rules for the guild bank or the individual concerned either wouldn't have done it, or you could just point to the rules and say 'see... not allowed'.

If you think certain rules should be in place then its often good to have them written down and communicated in a way that there can be no confusion, and officers can then act if those rules are broken.

The absence of written rules instantly renders pretty much all actions as acceptable.... humans all see things differently, and unless you specifically state what is/isn't allowed then you have to accept that stuff will happen.

In the absence of a written rule being broken it sounds like the player in question has acted ethically by paying for the items... especially if they paid over the market value for them.

Be glad you are talking about an ethical player who has paid you, rather than somebody just taking them and walking off

By this logic, the absence of a law makes it all good to do something unethical.

alifesoft · June 2018

Other (please state way)

Violynne wrote: »

Yesterday, two members in a guild I belong to were having a discussion about one taking all the recipes from the bank (to supply his newly found guild) and claimed to have deposited gold to the guild for the transaction (we have no way of verifying this).

I always put gold equivalent recipes/motifs to the guild bank when get recipes/motifs for my alts. I use TTC price check.

Prof_Bawbag · June 2018

Other (please state way)

smacky wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

From the sounds of it there was no written rules for the guild bank or the individual concerned either wouldn't have done it, or you could just point to the rules and say 'see... not allowed'.

If you think certain rules should be in place then its often good to have them written down and communicated in a way that there can be no confusion, and officers can then act if those rules are broken.

The absence of written rules instantly renders pretty much all actions as acceptable.... humans all see things differently, and unless you specifically state what is/isn't allowed then you have to accept that stuff will happen.

In the absence of a written rule being broken it sounds like the player in question has acted ethically by paying for the items... especially if they paid over the market value for them.

Be glad you are talking about an ethical player who has paid you, rather than somebody just taking them and walking off

By this logic, the absence of a law makes it all good to do something unethical.

If there's one thing this game has taught me, it's some people need things spelled out in plain English before something gets through to them. You're screwed either way. State rules you get accused of acting like the in-game Gestapo, say nothing you get slated for not making something plainly obvious. Blame the victim sort of thing that seems to be all the rage these days. You can't win and it really is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Flaminir · June 2018

No (why not)

smacky wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

From the sounds of it there was no written rules for the guild bank or the individual concerned either wouldn't have done it, or you could just point to the rules and say 'see... not allowed'.

If you think certain rules should be in place then its often good to have them written down and communicated in a way that there can be no confusion, and officers can then act if those rules are broken.

The absence of written rules instantly renders pretty much all actions as acceptable.... humans all see things differently, and unless you specifically state what is/isn't allowed then you have to accept that stuff will happen.

In the absence of a written rule being broken it sounds like the player in question has acted ethically by paying for the items... especially if they paid over the market value for them.

Be glad you are talking about an ethical player who has paid you, rather than somebody just taking them and walking off

By this logic, the absence of a law makes it all good to do something unethical.

How is it unethical?

Put yourself in their shoes a moment...

The guild have given you access to the guild bank... theres lots of items in there, some of which you need for whatever reason. The guild has GIVEN you free access, and there is nothing written down to say about any rules on what you can or can't take...

SO the player thinks... great free stuff... but actually doesn't just take it.

They felt that taking all that stuff for free would be taking from the guild without paying back.... so they paid the guild for it.

There is nothing unethical about that at all... quite the opposite, it shows that the player was thinking of the guild, and was appreciative of what was on offer.

Now if the guild can't verify the gold transactions due to incorrect setting of permissions and/or not having themselves setup with anyone with the right access levels, or if the guild haven't set any bank rules down in writing, or if the guild haven't communicated those rules in a clear & accessible manner... then as uncomfortable as it may be to hear, thats the guilds fault and not this other player.

The guild has shown a lack of organisation in this example, the player has (Assuming they are being truthful about paying) shown a good degree of consideration by paying for items which they could easily have just taken.

A constructive suggestion now: If the guild has an AWOL GM, and AWOL officers, and nobody with the permissions to see what is going on with the bank and organise the guild and you want to keep it going then drop a message to support and let them know that the leaders are all AWOL... support will try and contact them, and if they can't then I've heard from others they may be able to pass the GM to somebody else so you can set things up differently.

Good luck

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · June 2018

I always see guilds aggressively recruiting in the zone chats.

All of them have 490 members.
All of them have a trader in either Wayrest, Mournhold or Elder Root.
All of them require no fees.
All of them have many activities.

Once you join you find out that all the above is just BS. It's recruiting for the sake of recruiting.
Guild chats often end up violating ToS, discriminating people based on gender, sex preferences, color and stuff.
Guild banks are often robbed by people who don't give a damn about others. People who unilaterally decide that since they donate 5 gold they can take anything they want. Well, some don't even donate. Simply because they hosted trials they think the guild owes them.

How can you have a trust system in place when you recruit like that?
And why are you surprised anyway?

Start recruiting by sponsorship only. Where people are responsible of whoever they invite.

Prof_Bawbag · June 2018

Other (please state way)

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

I always see guilds aggressively recruiting in the zone chats.

All of them have 490 members.

All of them have a trader in either Wayrest, Mournhold or Elder Root.

All of them require no fees.

All of them have many activities.

Once you join you find out that all the above is just BS. It's recruiting for the sake of recruiting.
Guild chats often end up violating ToS, discriminating people based on gender, sex preferences, color and stuff.
Guild banks are often robbed by people who don't give a damn about others. People who unilaterally decide that since they donate 5 gold they can take anything they want. Well, some don't even donate. Simply because they hosted trials they think the guild owes them.

How can you have a trust system in place when you recruit like that?
And why are you surprised anyway?

Start recruiting by sponsorship only. Where people are responsible of whoever they invite.

That list actually made me laugh because it's true. Not a single guild here on the PS4 EU servers make mention of the fact they have compulsory fees. Not saying trading guilds don't deserve their 5k fee, but the GM's obviously know that ain't a selling point and then scratch their heads when Wee Timmy causes a scene in chat about having to pay 5k. Then they publicly put Wee Timmy down for not pay dues. Dues that we're hidden from them purposely when asking them to join.

Danikat · June 2018

Other (please state way)

Like most things there's no set rules, it depends on the guild. In one of my guilds the bank is essentially a dumping ground - you put things in there if you don't want to delete them but don't care what happens to them, and people are free to take anything out for any reason they like.

In another the guild officers encourage people to put in things they think would be useful to lower level/newer players and only officers can withdraw - you tell them what you want and why and they decide if you deserve it.

If your guild's rules are that recipes are only to be taken for your own use in doing dailies or to help progress their own crafters then that's fine but ideally people need to be told before taking them out.

Beardimus · June 2018

No (why not)

Depends on Guild and rules. Mine state replace like for like or donate. Thus in that case your guy is fine.

Would i wipe out 50 in one go, no not without telling the GM and agreeing the amount of Gold. But unless your guild has specific rules the guy didn't break any....

dovakiin5574 · June 2018

Yes

If it is established that the Guild Bank is for everyone in the guild, items should be used to better your own characters and NOT be used for personal gain (ex: Starting your own guild). As someone who is an officer in two guilds, this irritates me. I farm and farm and donate and craft for guildies and newbies and to see people like that take advantage of that kindness makes me sick. If you wan't my opinion, kick that greedy a-hole.

DanteYoda · June 2018

Yes

Yes it was wrong they should have just asked first and tbh if you cannot tell they paid for them i'm betting they didn't..

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2018

Yes

I think it's wrong BUT each guild has its own culture and I understand that people's opinions may vary in that regard.
I think management an open guild bank is a complex thing to do - and a lot of work with little rewards or recognition.
I do like GM keeping the guild bank for their personal storage either.
As a result, and in order to not cause or witness any issues, I play as if guild banks did not exist at all. Don't use, don't touch. No problem that way.

xilfxlegion · June 2018

it would be nice if someone cleaned out all of the green recipes in our guild banks. makes more room for stuff people can actually use.

twev · June 2018

Yes

Yes, wrong, for the reasons you stated, unless advised otherwise in the bylaws.

Thieves will do/say whatever they have to to justify their actions.

Boot the clown for either dishonesty or blatant stupid-idity

dovakiin5574 · June 2018

Yes

xilfxlegion wrote: »

it would be nice if someone cleaned out all of the green recipes in our guild banks. makes more room for stuff people can actually use.

Generally I hold on to stuff like that until someone asks for it. I use it as part of "Welcome Baskets" for new players

Scorpiodisc · June 2018

Yes

Violynne wrote: »

Yesterday, two members in a guild I belong to were having a discussion about one taking all the recipes from the bank (to supply his newly found guild) and claimed to have deposited gold to the guild for the transaction (we have no way of verifying this).

As the highest ranking member online, I offered my two cents about the transaction, but the person who "paid" for the recipes insists they've done nothing wrong as they deposited gold.

My reply was "The recipes aren't about making gold. They're for players to do their daily writs, or acquire common-but-not-easily-found blues and purples. They're not to be taken to start a new guild, no matter what the cost."

The player replied they paid far more than "market value" for the recipes (which were all green level), but I said this was not the point.

I replied:
"The bank is built on a trust system. Taking things from the bank doesn't require a deposit, but the honor system depends on players will make more deposits to help out and draw when they need, not want, to. By taking the recipes, you're validating the need to your new guild, not this one. Please restore the recipes withdrawn from the bank. I will message the guild officers to restore your gold once it's been proven you did deposit. We are not here to fund other guilds."

The person indicated the recipes had already been sold, but still questioned their action on why it was wrong.

So I decided to enlist the help of the members of the community.

Was it wrong for this person to take the recipes despite paying more than market value to set up their own guild?

You were 100% right. Had he just been using the recipes that would be one thing, but if he took them out to resell, then that is a red flag IMHO.

Exalted_Goose · June 2018

Yes

In my opinion, taking actual assets from a guild without permission for the benefit of another guild - regardless of whether it is new or not - is underhand and dishonourable. While the Gold repayment, (if it did indeed happen), is a pleasant gesture, such a repayment does not equal the value of the actual assets taken within the bank; someone will have to re-utilise that Gold to restore such assets to be retained for the altruistic purposes specified in the OP.

Regardless of whether it was specified in the Guild rules, I would say that etiquette should have taken precedence. Do not misinterpret me - the Gold repayment was a nice gesture, and does show that this member thought of the Guild even in attempting to consolidate the establishment of his own. But I feel that clandestinely siphoning actual assets of another Guild for the benefit of another, (equally, for one that belonged to him, which appears a little selfish), without consulting high-ranking members beforehand betrays at least the etiquette I aim to follow.

Personally, I would never take any item(s) from any of my Guild Banks - even if I re-deposited the entirety of my account-wide inventory as compensation - without permission.

RebornV3x · June 2018

No (why not)

He had access and he gave something back (if he did in fact put in gold into the bank for them) i never take anything from a guild bank without puting back a item of equal or greater value green recipes are almost useless in this game and unless there cp 150 to cp160 blue food there equal worthless same with purple etc those green recipes have probably been in the guild bank for months.

The fact he took the recipes to start another guild as its seems would have lost him his bank privileges though and a possible kick from the guild if I was GM now that I think about it

NoTimeToWait · June 2018

No (why not)

I assume, since it is not against the guild rules and nothing prohibits such behavior it is completely ok.

It certainly wasn't a decent move and he certainly should have asked GM before making transaction, but it was within borders.

As a member of a trade guild I would be completely okay, if someone took the whole bank and put the gold equivalent, if it was settled with GM, because I don't rely on guild bank to provide me with crucial items.

I use guild bank from time to time when I don't want to look for something on the market, but I am fine if the thing I was looking for is not to be found in the bank

Flaminir · June 2018

No (why not)

Don't understand some of the comments here.... think people have missed a couple of important points.

Assuming that he has paid (& due to the dis-organisation of the guild we have no way of knowing for sure... but in the absensce of evidence to the contrary you have to take somebody at their word)...

1. He isn't a thief... he paid for the items.... and allegedly paid over market value.
2. They aren't dishonest... there was no set rules in place for them to break!
3. They weren't acting un-ethically... they haven't deprived others of anything, they paid their way and bought them.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't feel comfortable with what they did either in my guild... but it sounds like there is a clear absence of organisation from the guild side in setting any rules, and you can't just take that out on a player who has seemingly shown consideration by paying for something. In the players eyes all they have done is bought some items fair & square from the guild bank. They haven't even just taken them for free... THEY PAID!

Guild banks are tricky things due to the lack of controls & options from ZoS... you have to be very clear and careful on how you manage them. It doesn't sound like this guild has any leadership structure there thats doing that.

Jameliel · June 2018

Other (please state way)

They are just green recipes. If this person was an outright thief, it would be different. Your views may differ, but it's best to remain cordial and instead of trying to force views upon one another. Ask him not to perform similar actions in the future. It's just a game and he didnt rob anyone.

Exalted_Goose · June 2018

Yes

Flaminir wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't feel comfortable with what they did either in my guild... but it sounds like there is a clear absence of organisation from the guild side in setting any rules, and you can't just take that out on a player who has seemingly shown consideration by paying for something. In the players eyes all they have done is bought some items fair & square from the guild bank. They haven't even just taken them for free... THEY PAID!

Guild banks are tricky things due to the lack of controls & options from ZoS... you have to be very clear and careful on how you manage them. It doesn't sound like this guild has any leadership structure there thats doing that.

Assuming that no rules are written clearly in the OP's guild regarding the subject matter, I agree with you in saying that the lack of leadership and structure largely caused this debate, and allowed this situation to happen. However, I think that most criticisms come down to personal ethics - as I see it, every item in the Guild Bank is in there for a reason; someone has placed it in there, and I, (personally - I know that the lack of specification in Guild rules essentially diminishes my argument), would not just assume that it is communal. I would always feel compelled to at least ask before taking anything, even if I intend to repay, and I'm guessing that most people who aren't approving of this guy's actions feel the same way.

Equally, I think that many of the claims of dishonesty come from those who - like me - disapprove of taking hard assets from a Guild for the benefit of another, (especially one belonging to the player in question, which to me seems a little selfish... I don't quite know how to explain what I mean), without consulting high-ranking members. Moreover, the new Guild is, in essence, a competitor. I know that leaving Gold behind is an respectable gesture, but those assets will take time to replace - much less would have been spent with a simple question asking: "Hey, would anyone mind if I have these? I'm willing to pay if necessary".

I don't know, I understand that the lack of clarity means that this is technically fine - I would say that it's just very discourteous, and based on my own etiquette, I don't think that he should have done it without permission.

dovakiin5574 · June 2018

Yes

Jameliel wrote: »

They are just green recipes. If this person was an outright thief, it would be different. Your views may differ, but it's best to remain cordial and instead of trying to force views upon one another. Ask him not to perform similar actions in the future. It's just a game and he didnt rob anyone.

It's still annoying. For example, if you work at a desk and your neighbor keeps coming over and taking your pens. It's not exactly robbing someone either. But you'll probably still be annoyed especially if you yourself paid for the pens. A game world is no different. It may not have any "real world value" but it has value in the hearts of those who enjoy the game. Just like crypto currency. No value but everyone still cares.

Violynne · June 2018

Exalted_Goose wrote: »

Assuming that no rules are written clearly in the OP's guild regarding the subject matter...

(trimming your post to keep it simple)

The rules of the bank are pretty simple: take what you need, place what you don't. It's an honor system, and most of the items contained within the bank are relatively common. I've personally placed rarer items into the bank knowing I could sell them, but new players don't always have access to gobs of gold.

"Trust banks" have been victims before, and I'm sure they'll be victims again. In this situation, there is no literal rule stating items cannot be withdrawn from the bank to start a new guild.

Does there have to be? If GMs had to spend time writing rules for every possible contingency, this would get tedious quickly.

Based on the overwhelming replies so far, most people agree it was a callous thing to do, even if the intention was "honorable" with the gold purchase.

This was also my gut reaction as well. The guild is there for members of the guild, not to cater to new members of a separate guild.

It is true many of the officers have been MiA, but I will make the appropriate messaging this evening to get those who may still be active, just not online, to address the matter.

I'd like to thank everyone for the feedback. I'll continue monitoring this thread as I intend to use it when I reach out to the officer(s).

I'm not experienced in MMOs (ESO is my first, and I'm on console), so I wanted a second opinion outside of my gut reaction.

phileunderx2 · June 2018

Other (please state way)

I picked other because when other people have access to the guild bank you should never be surprised when shenanigans happen.

bellatrixed · June 2018

No (why not)

My philosophy as a GM is everything in the guild bank is up for grabs for any reason.

I actually have to go through and clear it out every month or so because people put in green recipes and nobody ever takes them. I'd actually LIKE it if someone had a use for all that junk I wind up having to vendor, regardless of what it was.

I never require people to deposit gold or another item in order to take items though, but of course it's always nice.

I would only find it poor form if someone took literally every single item from the gbank in order to make money for themselves or something like that--but taking all of one "type" of item for a specific purpose is different.

In short, different guilds have different policies. I LIKE it when my gbank is used as more than a trash can for green recipes people don't want, but if your guild has another policy it should be clearly stated.

NickStern · June 2018

No (why not)

No if The GM and The officers that can verify things are not around sounds like someone NEEDS to set up a real guild for the members of that one to join.

inf.toniceb17_ESO · June 2018

No (why not)

See? This is why i avoid guilds. So much fuss over some trash recipies. On topic: In my opinion If you don't want ppl take stuff from guild bank, close your guild bank. Otherwise, be glad that he bothered to pay for them (if he actually did ofc).

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Guild Store Etiquette

Guild Store Etiquette 120 votes