If you are looking for a bargain then you are "taking advantage."

Aluneth · June 2018

"Hello! Welcome to the guild! Now before we do anything else, I want to sit down and have a talk with you about the rules of this guild. What? No don't be silly, I couldn't tell you these things before you joined, who does that anyway? The first rule of our trading guild, is that you're not allowed to trade in the guild. Don't look at me like that! We might be a trading guild, but you're not allowed to trade IN the guild, you're just allowed to use the store front to place your wares.

Now for the next rule, you're not allowed to barter or haggle with people in the guild. You have to follow the prices on this site/addon, anything else is NOT acceptable. What did you say? Love I do NOT appreciate that tone, don't take that tone with your superiors. Yes hun, I am your officer so I'm also your superior. What do you mean passive-aggressive? I'm from the UK so this is perfectly fine."

Fiktius · June 2018

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

M.M. and TTC prices go up and down frequently. Some mats are relatively stable, but the current "market" price for anything is simply the point wherever supply meets demand.

The M.M. price is a reflection of recent average sales, not necessarily what the market actually bears. TTC prices are a range of what other people were listing recently.

IMO both of these are more a kind of history tool to help you make decisions. Some people blindly follow them as "the price" handed down from above for any item. This results in many players blindly following those prices in a race to the bottom or whenever they climb higher for some arbitrary reason.

^Indeed!

So many forgets that TTC, ATT and MM all are trading tools which shows statistics and especially average prices, but that's the thing:
Most people read those statistics like a rule book and they forget that most often pricing suggestions these addons provides are mostly average prices only, but may not reflect "the actual price" of the item. That's why peak prices and frequency of peak sales are important to check out. (How high, how often and when those sales happened.)
But then again it's the good to keep in mind that more trade guilds you have, more statistics you have and average price variate between different guild members.
And what comes with following TTC min/average/max prices, pricing items for TTC's minimum price is something which is often most furthest away of the "real price" of the item, I would never go for that personally.

NoTimeToWait · June 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

If guildies offer you the items at a discount, it's cool (they usually do). But if you're actively soliciting underpriced items in guild chat, that's pretty lame.

Sorry what? Many guilds have rules "No WTB\WTS" in place, so it would be wrong to do that. But selling someone stuff below the price, well, it is completely OK.

Why? Because 1) this is a free market
2) MM is a price suggestion tool, not a policy tool. You may follow it, you may not, it's up to you. Sorry, but it is not very intelligent to let some third-party information enforce you to behave in certain way.
3) What if the guy without any trading addons, continues to provide people with undervalued stuff, is it lame too?

SugaComa wrote: »

Guild traders would hate me ..
I sell all sorts for stupid amounts ...

No trader worth their salt would hate anyone for that. Yeah, we dislike market price falls and dumping, but to be honest, it is just different sides of the same coin. Trader have to deal with goods and bads and just keep net balance positive

newtinmpls · June 2018

Hallothiel wrote: »

Agree it's a spoken UK thing but to actually go to the bother of typing it in text does seem a tad passive-aggressive in this situation.

It's okay to say, but not okay to type?

I just type stream-of-thought, so if it's in my head, its gonna come out.

newtinmpls · June 2018

Kalgert wrote: »

Could also be said that sometimes a dialog partner isn't worth notifying that you're going afk.

But that's just me.

Yup, it's just you

DoctorESO · June 2018

Crapgame wrote: »

I belong(ed) to 5 trading guilds since I usually play solo I only need a guild so I can sell my wares.

I've been leveling my crafting so I need bunches of materials. I started yesterday and needed Ebonthread. TTC showed it for 12 on the low end so I asked my guilds if anyone would sell me stacks at 2k each. Many people sent me stacks at that price (10 each).

Today, I've moved onto Kresh fiber and again the low end was 12-15, however the average was 22. I asked the same guilds if anyone would sell me stacks at 2k each. I had a few takers and bought 550 at 10g each.

It is all good up to that point. Then I saw messages in guildchat.

This is the conversation that followed from there:
Guild member: Um, sorry hon, but the TTC for Kresh Fibre is double that. TTC Price for [Kresh Fiber] : Suggested : 21 ~ 26 [Avg 44.41/Min 4/Max 14,153.33] (206 listings/18,940 items) So a stack would be 4k.

Me: People do sell below MM price. I just received 550 units @10. So there is that, hon.

Guild member: Good for you, but please don't try to rip off your fellow guildmates by asking for mats below market value. It's kinda rude.

Guild member: If you negotiate a lower price, of course, that's totally fine. But asking for it outright... yeah, sorry, love, but I can't let that happen. Sorry.

Me: People with extra mats and all slots full will accept a lower price. I'm not twisting anyones arm. You're not "letting anything happen." If they don't want to sell, they won't.

Me: I only asked one time and got more than enough so obviously people think that is fair enough

Guild member: you are speaking to an officer. Show some respect. This is your second warning, because I know that you did this yesterday and another officer told you not to. This is not "one time" this is the second. Don't ask for items under market value and don't be an arsehole when we let you know what the market value is, on the of chance it was a genuine mistake.

(I went AFK here.)

Guild member: Well?

Guild member: Answer me.

Guild member: Very well.

Guild member #2: bye.

(I return and find I've been kicked from the guild.)

Tell to guild member: I had to go afk. I have no hard feelings about any of this. You're an officer so you are allowed to do what you'd like. In many guilds, people will freely trade things below fair value as that is one of the major benefits to a trading guild. Each member is entitled to sell his wares at whatever price suits them. For instance, I had asked to buy some ebonthread @10 and instead someone sent me 100 units for 0. That was their decision. I was only offering a price.

r/ from Guild member: Yeah, I wasn't the one who kicked you. I was busy sending out guild mail at the time, which I would have had to start all over again if I exited the mail ui and entered the guild ui, and given the fact MailR tends to take a full half hour to send otu mail, I wsn't going to do it. It was another officer who kicked you.

r/ to guild member: Also, I was never "warned" of anything. Someone just mentioned that the price was below market and we left it at that. It doesn't matter who kicked me. As I said, no hard feelings.

r/ from Guild member: I relly, truly hope there aren't, and I hope you can find a good home trade guild, but... well, I'm sorry; but we can't allow such drastic undercutting. I mean, like I said, if you negotiate it between yourselves that's a different issue, but asking for it outright? That's just devaluing the hard work that went into getting those mats in the first place.

r/ to Guild member: There aren't. However, I was kicked for doing nothing wrong other than looking to buy some mats from my guildmates. Not looking for handouts. "Undercutting" is a mischaracterization of a "request to buy" in guild chat. I read the rules. There is nothing in there about not requesting trades at below MM values. Just as there is no penalty for requesting more than fair market value for an item.

(No more replies.)

I am serious when I say there are no hard feelings. That is why I haven't named any names. Every guild is free to operate as they choose.

The reason I'm posting this long winded story is that I want to make sure I'm not being inconsiderate in this situation. Is it bad form to ask for prices below market value when you're buying in guildchat from your guildmates? If it is, I will refrain from doing so. However, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. I sent out that same request to all of the other guilds that I'm in and received plenty of Kresh.

"Sorry hon."

LOL!

DaveMoeDee · June 2018

What is silly about people treating addons as authoratative at setting prices is that (1) the addons disagree about prices, (2) you will see different prices based on your guild membership, and (3) suggested prices are often outdated.

In the end, all that matters is what people are willing to pay or accept.

If they ban WTB in chat or set rules around it, I can see that value in that. Just make the rules known and ditch the "respect my authority" nonsense. One potential problem with what the OP did is that they undercut guild members trying to sell through the guild store. Selling through the guild store greatly benefits the guild.

kringled_1 · June 2018

This one falls into a gray area for me. I don't really like people taking advantage of guild mates, especially since one of my trade guilds tends to get a lot of newer players. I've called out one of the other members for trying to buy a motif for less than half of the TTC minimum listing. On the other hand, lots of people don't list the intermediate tier crafting materials, and I suppose some people might welcome a chance to clear them out.

Aluneth · June 2018

kringled_1 wrote: »

This one falls into a gray area for me. I don't really like people taking advantage of guild mates, especially since one of my trade guilds tends to get a lot of newer players. I've called out one of the other members for trying to buy a motif for less than half of the TTC minimum listing. On the other hand, lots of people don't list the intermediate tier crafting materials, and I suppose some people might welcome a chance to clear them out.

So every time someone asks for a price that isn't the same as the one that you find in an addon/homepage, you somehow take advantage of people?

Valen_Byte · June 2018

If that was a "respectable" officer, they would have taken the convo into pvt. You did nothing wrong. Better off without them.

MaleAmazon · June 2018

The only part I dont really understand is this:

I've been leveling my crafting so I need bunches of materials.

That is *not* how you level crafting (efficiently).

As for the original topic... I kinda understand the guild officers. And tone is hard online, you can´t see the other person. If the OP had been told not to do something and did it again.. what do you expect? TBH I don´t even think "show some respect" was necessarily out of line, though I would have laughed at my screen if anyone told me off in ESO XD

gnarlyvandal · June 2018

The OP was obviously not taking advantage of anyone. Stated they read the rules of the guild and what they were doing was not mentioned in the rules.
The OP did not target anyone specifically, but instead offered a price for items in the chat and some helpful guildies offered up the goods, in some cases for free it seems.
What you were doing is perfectly ok, although isn’t accepted in all guilds, although those guilds usually state so in their rules.
Honestly, I would’ve just reported that officer. Flexing his ‘officer’ muscles for apparently no reason.

Aluneth · June 2018

MaleAmazon wrote: »

The only part I dont really understand is this:

I've been leveling my crafting so I need bunches of materials.

That is *not* how you level crafting (efficiently).

As for the original topic... I kinda understand the guild officers. And tone is hard online, you can´t see the other person. If the OP had been told not to do something and did it again.. what do you expect? TBH I don´t even think "show some respect" was necessarily out of line, though I would have laughed at my screen if anyone told me off in ESO XD

What has she done to earn his respect? Why should he show her more respect than she shows him?

MaleAmazon · June 2018

What has she done to earn his respect? Why should he show her more respect than she shows him?

Depends on what you mean by respect. I suppose in guilds, don´t argue rules. Same as you don´t argue referee decisions on a football pitch. Like the officer said:

we can't allow such drastic undercutting. I mean, like I said, if you negotiate it between yourselves that's a different issue, but asking for it outright?

Not allowing people to undercut so much (less than 50% MM price!!!) seems perfectly reasonable.

Additionally, with those mats I´d say it´s a decent change the sellers were low champion levels and didn´t know the price they sold for was so low.

I wouldnt have an attitude like that officer´s, but really... don´t undercut that much. Most guilds afaik expect you to use MM prices and not stray too far.

JJBoomer · June 2018

LOL gold in this game doesn't even have any real life value. People taking this way to seriously. bottom line, don't join guild that take things too seriously because they literally suck the fun and life out of games. People acting like they are making real money by playing this game or something XD

kringled_1 · June 2018

Aluneth wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

This one falls into a gray area for me. I don't really like people taking advantage of guild mates, especially since one of my trade guilds tends to get a lot of newer players. I've called out one of the other members for trying to buy a motif for less than half of the TTC minimum listing. On the other hand, lots of people don't list the intermediate tier crafting materials, and I suppose some people might welcome a chance to clear them out.

So every time someone asks for a price that isn't the same as the one that you find in an addon/homepage, you somehow take advantage of people?

If you're offering to buy something at far lower prices than you can possibly find elsewhere, it's almost by definition trying to take advantage of someone. You're trying to gain from either their ignorance of the market, or their hurry to make a sale, or their lack of access to other selling opportunities, or something else. I will freely state that I will happily buy bargain basement deals on guild traders when I find them. I'm sure people who buy from me sometimes think they've gotten a deal. I just find it distasteful to try to use guild chat to find someone who is ignorant of pricing and use that for your own benefit.

xeNNNNN · June 2018

This is a trading guild? Glad I didnt get into that crap.

I've got one trading guild im in and I just sell things. Thats it.

But honestly haggling is all part of business the fact its frowned upon some how just seems silly. provided people know when to call it quits then it should be fine.

And that officer that kicked you was having a power trip. Trying use a hammer from a position of authority lol. Stupid.

Aluneth · June 2018

MaleAmazon wrote: »

What has she done to earn his respect? Why should he show her more respect than she shows him?

Depends on what you mean by respect. I suppose in guilds, don´t argue rules. Same as you don´t argue referee decisions on a football pitch. Like the officer said:

we can't allow such drastic undercutting. I mean, like I said, if you negotiate it between yourselves that's a different issue, but asking for it outright?

Not allowing people to undercut so much (less than 50% MM price!!!) seems perfectly reasonable.

Additionally, with those mats I´d say it´s a decent change the sellers were low champion levels and didn´t know the price they sold for was so low.

I wouldnt have an attitude like that officer´s, but really... don´t undercut that much. Most guilds afaik expect you to use MM prices and not stray too far.

The original poster already said that it wasn't part of the guild rules. It doesn't have to be a person with low CP, it can just as well be a high CP player that has more of the material than he'll ever use. Don't stray too far from the MM prices? Is this a trading guild in a game, or a socialistic state?

For being a game with heavy focus on trading guilds, it sure has some anti-capitalistic agendas going on.

- No trading within the trading guilds.
- You have to follow specific prices.
- If you don't follow those specific prices, you're taking advantage of people.
- You have to sell from the trader, so the guild benefits.

JJBoomer · June 2018

People do realize that if we didn't have MM or TTC, there wouldn't even be a "market value". So this whole "how dare you buy under MM/TTC" wouldn't even be a thing.

MM/TTC prevented market values from continuing to be create by the players and the players only. Because without MM/TTC, we have no idea what things are really worth, which allows people to set their own prices. But now with those addons, it's "use those prices or you're bad/cheap/etc". It prevented the market from growing organically, and more reasonably.

Sigh. MM/TTC should only ever be guidelines. Ahh even virtual capitalism, aka, my fake gold is more important than anything else!!!

Colecovision · June 2018

Your story seems pretty well spun to me, but I'll ask instead of ranting with bad info. Are these facts correct and properly placed in order?

You do a bst in guild chat
you are told by an officer that's against guild rules <<<---- Did this happen? It's the main fact in the story.
you do another bst in guild chat
you are told not to again
you argue
Officer makes comment so stupid that it gets all the attention in the story
you got kicked

The officer says you were told the day before, but you say there was no warning. Which is it? Any comment to you saying it was against guild rules is absolutely enough. You don't need a certified letter.

MaleAmazon · June 2018

The original poster already said that it wasn't part of the guild rules. It doesn't have to be a person with low CP, it can just as well be a high CP player that has more of the material than he'll ever use. Don't stray too far from the MM prices? Is this a trading guild in a game, or a socialistic state?

Not everything has to be explicitly stated in guild rules. And you seem to have a somewhat weird view on socialism... it is considered bad form to sell for way below MM prices. Call it what you want, it prevents market price dumps and preying on people. You don´t have to be a communist to want that

And kresh fiber... a high CP player wouldn´t get that material unless they farmed at an intermediate skilline level, which is unlikely (there´s little reason to level crafting to CP10 equipment). Any experienced crafter can just craft CP160 equipment and decon it with their alts to immediately go to lvl 10 in the skilline.

And like was stated there is a difference between a negotiated price and just going "hi, WTB stuff at 40% sell value" in chat...

Malacthulhu · June 2018

Aluneth wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

What has she done to earn his respect? Why should he show her more respect than she shows him?

Depends on what you mean by respect. I suppose in guilds, don´t argue rules. Same as you don´t argue referee decisions on a football pitch. Like the officer said:

we can't allow such drastic undercutting. I mean, like I said, if you negotiate it between yourselves that's a different issue, but asking for it outright?

Not allowing people to undercut so much (less than 50% MM price!!!) seems perfectly reasonable.

Additionally, with those mats I´d say it´s a decent change the sellers were low champion levels and didn´t know the price they sold for was so low.

I wouldnt have an attitude like that officer´s, but really... don´t undercut that much. Most guilds afaik expect you to use MM prices and not stray too far.

The original poster already said that it wasn't part of the guild rules. It doesn't have to be a person with low CP, it can just as well be a high CP player that has more of the material than he'll ever use. Don't stray too far from the MM prices? Is this a trading guild in a game, or a socialistic state?

For being a game with heavy focus on trading guilds, it sure has some anti-capitalistic agendas going on.

- No trading within the trading guilds.
- You have to follow specific prices.
- If you don't follow those specific prices, you're taking advantage of people.
- You have to sell from the trader, so the guild benefits.

Does not matter if it was part of the rules. He was warned lol. He did something the guild didn't like and argued it, like any other guild they punted him. Has nothing to do with right and wrong. If he is asking if it is cool to take advantage of other guildies instead making a fair offer, then no its not cool and there are a ton of reasons why. It was probably also viewed as a disrespectful behavior, did he ask if it was cool to haggle in text chat? Did someone complain to the officier before they took action? We do not know, we also do not know the OP's true intentions regardless of what he says.

Aluneth · June 2018

MaleAmazon wrote: »

The original poster already said that it wasn't part of the guild rules. It doesn't have to be a person with low CP, it can just as well be a high CP player that has more of the material than he'll ever use. Don't stray too far from the MM prices? Is this a trading guild in a game, or a socialistic state?

Not everything has to be explicitly stated in guild rules. And you seem to have a somewhat weird view on socialism... it is considered bad form to sell for way below MM prices. Call it what you want, it prevents market price dumps and preying on people. You don´t have to be a communist to want that

And kresh fiber... a high CP player wouldn´t get that material unless they farmed at an intermediate skilline level, which is unlikely (there´s little reason to level crafting to CP10 equipment). Any experienced crafter can just craft CP160 equipment and decon it with their alts to immediately go to lvl 10 in the skilline.

And like was stated there is a difference between a negotiated price and just going "hi, WTB stuff at 40% sell value" in chat...

There is no negotiating when they're not allowed to trade within the guild, and have to follow specific prices. He has to use the guild store. If you don't follow those specific prices, you're (in your own words), taking advantage of those 'poor low CP people' that don't know better.

I have a lot of materials for all levels, material I don't even use anymore. I'll gladly sell for lower than market price to get rid of it. If someone wants to buy at the price I'm selling, or if someone asks for a price I'm alright with, then I don't see how that is a problem. You (and others) seem to have this idea that he's taking advantage of people who don't know better, this doesn't have to be the case. If you don't have ESO+, material take up space, and people want to free that up while getting some money.

If you had asked me for my opinion on Guild Stores vs Auction house two days ago, I wouldn't have had much of an opinion on it. With stuff like this going on in trading guilds, I see no reasons for keeping the Guild Stores other than moneysinks.

PlagueSD · June 2018

danno8 wrote: »

A fine example of why many people don't want to have to join Guilds just to sell their stuff on the market.

Selling stuff shouldn't have to be a group activity.

**INSERT DEAD HORSE MEME HERE**

(Let the arguing begin!!)

There's always zone chat and COD....just saying..

AhPook_Is_Here · June 2018

I dunno why you left, should have told that dirty pinko there is nothing wrong with capitalism and being a market-maker.

Waffennacht · June 2018

It was all going well until "hun"

I hate little pet names (or wuteva they are called)

"Champ" "sport" "slugger" "boss" "chief" "hun" "babe" "ace" etc...

Instant pissy mode.

gnarlyvandal · June 2018

kringled_1 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

This one falls into a gray area for me. I don't really like people taking advantage of guild mates, especially since one of my trade guilds tends to get a lot of newer players. I've called out one of the other members for trying to buy a motif for less than half of the TTC minimum listing. On the other hand, lots of people don't list the intermediate tier crafting materials, and I suppose some people might welcome a chance to clear them out.

So every time someone asks for a price that isn't the same as the one that you find in an addon/homepage, you somehow take advantage of people?

If you're offering to buy something at far lower prices than you can possibly find elsewhere, it's almost by definition trying to take advantage of someone. You're trying to gain from either their ignorance of the market, or their hurry to make a sale, or their lack of access to other selling opportunities, or something else. I will freely state that I will happily buy bargain basement deals on guild traders when I find them. I'm sure people who buy from me sometimes think they've gotten a deal. I just find it distasteful to try to use guild chat to find someone who is ignorant of pricing and use that for your own benefit.

Read the original post; one of his guildies even sent him some for free to help out.
The phrasing of the OP also makes it seem that he is in fact a relatively new player.
Asking in guild chat for a specific item for a specific price isn’t taking advantage; it’s putting the offer out there, if anyone wants to take that offer it’s their prerogative... it’s not like he was finding people ‘WTS bla bla’ and then demanding they sell at rocket bottom prices.
His guild officer was an absolute dou*** for acting in that manner and I’d simply just report, block and leave the guild. Got no time for toxicity like that in a GAME.

MaleAmazon · June 2018

There is no negotiating when they're not allowed to trade within the guild, and have to follow specific prices. He has to use the guild store. If you don't follow those specific prices, you're (in your own words), taking advantage of those 'poor low CP people' that don't know better.

??? Officer said it was fine if price was negotiated, not if it was asked for outright.

You (and others) seem to have this idea that he's taking advantage of people who don't know better, this doesn't have to be the case.

I never said he was taking advantage of people. I´m saying being told not to ask to buy things for way under MM price is a reasonable way to prevent people from being taken advantage of.

Bottom line: it is perfectly acceptable in some places to ask for a dumped price. In other places it is not. This was apparently one of the latter, and when in Rome...

ghastley · June 2018

Is this a case of "Hey, no selling cheap, because that reduces MY cut of the deal"? What is the hidden agenda here?

phileunderx2 · June 2018

I don't see a problem with what you did. You offered to buy mats at a certain price..and someone agreed to sell them to you. This is how commerce works.