Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

I think people sometimes forget what it's like to be a newer player, or even a sub-CP160 player who rightfully hasn't yet invested the time and money to farm/acquire two best-in-slot sets.

Sounds like you don't know what battleleveling is.

DoctorESO wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

I think people sometimes forget what it's like to be a newer player, or even a sub-CP160 player who rightfully hasn't yet invested the time and money to farm/acquire two best-in-slot sets.

Actually, it´s the other way around IMO - we DO remember what it was like to be challenged, to think about equipment, how we could improve, to fight bosses. That´s what we want to do again!

That's what Old Craglorn was for, but people didn't seem to like it.

People didn't liked the old craglorn because mechanics forced them into groups. They didn't disliked it bc it was harder. It was just annoying design that you have to have 3 other guys at the same quest stage just to open a door.

DoctorESO wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

That's what Old Craglorn was for, but people didn't seem to like it.

I didnt play Craglorn at the time, but that was a global difficulty since it was intended for groups, no? The thing at least I ask for, is an OPTIONAL difficulty setting that functions on the player stats and not the monster stats.

If that's the case, what about just unallocating 50%, or even all, of your CPs? It's not as easy as a slider, but it seems it would have a very similar effect.

A ) What speaks against a difficulty slider
B ) Do you understand that CP are a real issue in this game? It demotivates new players (like in "uff, I have to grind all that 50lvl + 750cp after that" and in like "it's tiring to see the chat spammed with "LFM 2dd 300+ for vFG1".) It forces the devs to nerf all skills as soon as cp power creep hit a new high, leaving classes as a shadow of their former selfs. And finally it makes it nearly impossible to balance this game. Do you balance PvE for low cp or high cp players? Do you balance sets for CP PvP or for no CP PvP? Etc.
C ) What Dreepa wrote.

Darrett wrote: »

You can easily pull 10k dps from just and only spamming light attacks. Even on a non-meta build. If your so bad that taking down an 100-500k npc takes you all day I can really see where this "the game should cater to me instead of I should improve" attitude comes from.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I say all that not to brag, but to say I'm neither averse to challenge or grouping. I just feel they have zero business being involved in questing/story content.

Allright, I think I'm done here. People don't want challenge in a videogame. People don't want to group in a MMO. That's just sad.

You don't know what you're talking about, sport. For it to be true that you can pull 10k DPS with light attacks, you would need to do approximately 10k damage per swing, as the GCD is nearly a second. You do know what DPS stands for, right?

Considering your statement regarding this "attitude" when your side is the one demanding the game cater to them, rather than sticking to the challenging content that already exists, I'd doubt it.

Sorry but I find your condescending tone in combination with what you wrote really funny. If you can't pull around 10k dps by simply clicking the left mouse button I don't know what to tell you. The light attack alone deals 7-8k+ dmg on DW. Add your enchants to that and you can easily be in that area. How I know that? Bc my combat log tells me. It's ridiculous how fast you can hack'n slash through story content now, after the buffs to LA. Add your usual AoE, DoT or spam to that and no fight against any OL/delve/public dungeon boss should last "all day".
Of course, if you run an blue resto staff with 20k mag and a hardening enchant, then your dps will be much lower. Granted. But you're long enough here to know better.



Also, I'm not gonna read the whole walls of text @BrightOblivion wrote. Being able to write a short text that is on point seems to be underrated. However, from what I read: you can still play at your own pace and read books and smell the roses even when the boss encounter lasts more than 5-10 seconds. You paint me as judgmental but didn't get that people don't ask for every overland mob to be at vet dlc difficulty, nor do they ask for quest bosses to be at vet HM trial level. If you didn't ingored all but one sentence I wrote you would have gotten that.
People ask for one of three things: slightly longer boss encounters, optional difficulty sliders or the removal of CP system + rebalancing. Personally I'd vote for cp removal since it's the underlying issue that makes balancing every content at the same time so much harder.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

The next step would be to carefully adjust the difficulty of the mobs, taking into account those areas where mainly new players begin and where more experienced players are running around. This is not going back to leveled zones, it would only affect quest/delve bosses mainly and those areas which are far off the road. All no starter zones or more 'epic' dungeons should be focused on more experienced players (by which I mean the averagely experienced player as described above), in particular, all future new DLC content should not contain beginner zones anymore. I like the group zone concept in current Craglorn, in which more mobs are grouped together etc. Another idea would be to have some random elite mobs appearing which make battles a little more diversified.

I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you here. While you're claiming that it doesn't return to the leveled zones, and technically it doesn't, it still utterly guts One Tamriel's go almost anywhere (except Craglorn) at any time appeal (and you admit as much by dilineating things into "starter zones" and "non-starter zones"). And that's one of my favorite aspects of the game. You don't have to start every player on every character in the same boring, years'-old alliance story. You can go to Wrothgar, the Gold Coast, Hew's Bane, Vvardenfell, or, now, Summerset. You can take your Khajiit to Reaper's March and wander around. The world is your oyster. And that's awesome.

The problem is that there is no clear distinction between 'go anywhere' and 'start anywhere'. And such distinction should be in the game more clearly in my opinion. If one is sharing content on beginner difficulty level everywhere and introduce a power creep at the same time, it makes the entire overland content - which constitute the main bulk of the game - completely trivial for the averagely skilled player. In my (and others) opinion that should be addressed.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I also profoundly disagree with the belief that all DLC zones moving forward need to be tailored to experienced players. Because they don't. And I say this as an experienced, veteran-ish, certainly not new player. Every DLC dungeon going forward looks like it's going to be at the typical DLC dungeon level of difficulty. Every trial or mini-trial looks like it's going to be tougher than Craglorn. We veteran, high CP players don't need to gobble up the rest of the yearly release pie, too. I also refuse to believe, or suggest, or claim, that we need to tell new or returning players who've been drawn in by the hype surrounding the DLC/Chapter release "Nope, sorry. This is our sandbox. You go back to the years-old zones. They're the starter zones." Not every game needs to be like Runescape where every player drops from the same tutorial into Lumbridge and go through everything in the same order and new areas are almost entirely for higher level players, and the fact that this game allows new players/characters to dive right into the newest overland content without missing a beat is outstanding to me.

Granted, the group aspect of Craglorn is absolutely my least favorite part of the game, as I dislike slogging through overlarge mob groups for two hours or more to complete quests, or waiting for someone to stop what they're doing so they can help me move forward (I enjoy questing alone at my own, sometimes breakneck pace). Also, playing dodge the elite mob in Imperial City hasn't upped my enjoyment level a single nanomillimeter (but has cranked my frustration level to 11).

I am not believing but demanding. In my opinion there is absolutely no reason to make, for example, Clockwork City or Coldharbour on the same difficulty level then Khenarthi's Roost. If it would be tougher, a beginner or returner would just go back from where he came from or ask for help. If they struggle with such content then they are so inexperienced that the original zones are excitingly enough. Today Craglorn is well populated, it is a perfect example that everything works with a little harder difficulty. Therefore I can not see a problem making the difficulty of DLC content at least on par with Craglorn while stopping the power creep. Zones in which group areas are clearly indicated and every player with more than 2 brain cells in their head understand that there is more tougher content ahead.

I've made a different experience with Craglorn, for me it was a relief to walk through more challenging content. I am not sure what you are playing, but in the end you are playing an MMO and this game should have some parts in which grouping should be emphasized. The philosophy should go as follows: If you are playing a tank or healer than you choose it in order to support others, so team up. If you don't have a team, switch your abilities, because these two roles are just not meant to be that effective solo.

Anyways, you have your opinion and I have mine. Likely we will stay at odds, but I hope you agree with me at least on one point: the main bulk of the game content should be tailored around the skill of the majority of players - even in the future.

To be blunt, "demanding" is even worse. That's like jumping up and down and shouting "No new content for them! They have enough! Everything from here on in should be tailored to me! Me, me, me, me, me! They can go pick flowers or something." And I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. I mean, are you even reading what you're typing? "If it's tougher, they'll just go back where they came from." Seriously?

I am not jumping up and down but simply demanding a change, and not only for me but as others as well, for the sake of the game. So 'demanding' its a perfect valid description for what I am doing, nothing wrong with that. Also 'going back to where they came from' is meant how its meant without any form of insinuation: If one has a difficult time with hard content, one can go back first, level there and come back at a later time. If you can tell me an even better way to express this basic statement in other words feel free to say it.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Except Craglorn is populated because it's the prime spot to get people for trials. It's populated because there's nirncrux in them there resource nodes. It's populated because it has Skyreach and DSA. It's most certainly not populated because the questing is amazingly balanced. You just have to sit and watch how many people run into those group instances (that aren't Skyreach) to see that.

What you are trying to do is explain why it is populated, but a precise reason is irrelevant for a discussion of game difficulty because it is already proven: Craglorn HAS a higher difficulty level and IS populated. Same can be applied to future DLCs.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I say all that not to brag, but to say I'm neither averse to challenge or grouping. I just feel they have zero business being involved in questing/story content. If I want to move at a sedate pace searching every bookcase for eidetic memory books and actually listening to dialogue, I should be able to. If I want to shoot through at a whirlwind sprint, laughing as the town area markers turn white and Destinations quest markers blink out like stars at the end of time, I should be able to do that, too. I should not have to wait 20 plus minutes to find a group and rushed through at a tornado's pace just to progress the zone story. If I want that, I'll pug a dungeon.

Alright, so a challenge and grouping have no business in quests? Fine that's your opinion but in particular in regards to the more epic quests or the main story quests of a zone I strongly disagree with you. And I think I am not alone with my opinion. I want a little more challenge when it comes to specific quests and the feel of an accomplishment when I am completing them. Also in harder content there will be possibilities to enjoy, relax and pic flowers. But generally too easy stuff is also a game killer you know?

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I hate to break it to you, but we don't even agree on that. Not by a long shot. Because I believe, especially when it comes to the questing/overarching narrative story content, that accessibility, in some form or fashion, trumps challenge any day of the week.

The only part in which I was talking about agreement was the last sentence of my post, so I assume that you are referring to this statement and you really do not agree with me that the skill required for the main bulk of the game should be centered around the skill of the majority of the playerbase. Now I can ask you the same question: Are you serious or do you actually read what you are writing?

BrightOblivion wrote: »

What you're proposing- nay, I'm sorry- demanding is that they essentially kill normal mode and all additional story and overland content is just for experienced players. Anyone else can just go back where they came from or ask for help. And that does not, and will not ever, fly with me.

I believe you should read more carefully what I wrote: I already stated that the I find the difficulty level of the current overland content just right for beginners. But what I want is a change of certain areas in the zones, quest bosses and DLC overland content so that the difficulty is more tailored around the skill of the majority of the playerbase. Its not a general increase in difficulty everywhere, in particular starter zones should be excluded. Again, I would like to see an intelligent increase in difficulty and at the same time a stop in the CP power creep, not something 'just for experienced players'.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

But, as you said, you have your opinion and I have mine. And we'll probably not get anything from continuing to debate it further, except an increase in my blood pressure and active minutes/steps count as I pace back and forth while typing. I just hope that, whatever ZOS decides, they pick something that works with both groups (like a vet mode or difficulty slider), rather than just giving one the finger and moving on.

Don't worry I like a debate but I too see that we are just at odds here and won't try to convince anyone.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

EDIT: And even Shada's Tear, my absolute least favorite quest area of all time full stop, was more a frustrating, time consuming slog more than anything else. Three steps, massive group of mobs, three step, massive group of mobs. ... Ooh, puzzle! Gimmicky neried boss in poison water that my scamp is hung up on the edge of! Other side? More massive mob groups. Another gimmicky neried boss. Up the center! Giant spider with craptons of adds that I'm getting down to sub-40% then running out of stam because I'm blocking when it says to block and following the mechanics. Oh, look! Knocked down for 5 seconds and dead. Do that for 15 minutes or more, give up and sneak past. Okay, final boss. Gimmicky shield mechanic. 4 adds in 4 separate corners that you have to interrupt or you die. Take a few tries before taking two out, eating the other two, burning the shield bearer and the boss. Walk out more than 2 hours after I walked in feeling unfulfilled and angry more than anything else and never wanting to see the inside of it again even if someone paid me. It's absolutely not my cup of tea and I'd take an easy, breezy whirlwind sprint over that crap any day of the week.

Well, for me this the opposite experience since I like large dungeons to explore and the lore. Based on what you said before regarding vMA I am just confused that you found this such a struggle.

Just a couple things to comment on here. I mentioned most of my thoughts in the other big behemoth of a post before, but I do need to clarify some things.

First and foremost, I need to apologize for some ways I took some things you wrote, primarily the "go back to where they came from" comment. Unfortunately, with the baggage that comes with that phrase and other people who do want the DLC to be solely for experienced players and the less-skilled ones can stay in the base game sandbox, I reacted very poorly and I'm sorry for that. Honestly, I think the way you described it, as going somewhere else and leveling up more or getting better gear, or generally preparing better, would be a better way to put it. There's just less baggage and insinuation tethered to that than the other.

I'm also still not a fan of demanding, because I just don't like the connotation. It's more forceful, less considerate of others or the possibility that, y'know, maybe they feel differently. It suggests this is how you're going to do it, and you're going to do it or else. For instance (and just as an example, with no insinuation meant), a kidnapper makes demands. Personally, and maybe it's just me, but I prefer the word request. We'd like you to do it. We'd really like you to do it. But if you look at it and you go "You know what, we've thought about it and this just isn't the way we want to go," then that's alright, too. It's just more cordial and reasonable and level-headed. But that's wading way off the beaten path and into the weeds.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Why exactly Craglorn is populated is incredibly important, precisely because you're using its being populated to suggest (at least as it appears to me) that more difficult/group overland questing content is a success. And from what I've seen, it's not. I mean, yeah, there are a lot of people there, but they aren't doing the difficult/group overland questing content that you're praising so highly, outside of Skyreach because it's one of the most widely discussed level-grinding spots in the game. In that case, there being a lot of people there doesn't prove that that content is a success, because there aren't a lot of people doing that content. In fact, the fact that there aren't a lot of people doing that content, despite there being a lot of people in the zone, seems to suggest the opposite. And the number of people doing trials doesn't suggest that, either, because questing and trials are two very different types of content.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

At first, that awful experience confused me, too, and I suppose that may have been an additional increase in my frustration, but I do have a few ideas now that I've thought about it. First, if I want to do something as mechanically intensive as vMA, then I'd do vMA. I wouldn't do questing, because the mindset with which I'd approach the two is dramatically different. I don't quest to get frustrated (although lately with at least two quests broken in Morrowind right now, I'm still there), but to relax and enjoy the narrative (which some might find crazy). So when I slam into something while questing that has me feeling like I'm crashing into a brick wall for minutes on end, especially after two hours straight in one place (even in vMA I took breaks), I'm irritated. Already off on a bad foot. Additionally, bear in mind that, as mechanically intensive as vMA is, it is designed for one person. Shada's Tear is not. The mechanic on the last boss where you have a very short window to interrupt four ghosts in four separate corners of the room is not. I'm not sure how more people would have helped against the spider (maybe taking aggro?), but it's not designed for one person. Given my inability to find a group for it either in guild or from people nearby (of which I saw none), and my already outspokenly-expressed opinion of the blending of groups and questing, I went in solo. And maybe if I'd been in a group the experience would be different. But, as I've said, I don't enjoy being forced into a group to do a quest. The mindset with which I approach the two things is profoundly different and, almost like someone who hates it when the different types of food on their plate are touching, blending the two just makes the experience less pleasant and palatable for me.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Well, ZoS is kinda screwed now. They can't take away CPs from players without a complete outrage and mass exodus, so they have to work with it. The golden rule of mmos is that you never take anything away from a player or invalidate their investment/effort. By removing CPs, ZoS would be shooting themselves in the foot without anything to adequately replace it - that's why it took so long to get rid of veteran ranks in the first place.

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

I think that you can make the game as hard or as easy as you like, which is pretty smart of ESO. Not everyone wants the "Dark Souls" experience from you know where. I know this because I am in a lot of different kinds of guilds. I've helped my housing guildies through dungeons just so they could have a trophy to hang on the wall. They aren't min/maxers with 30k DPS, even though they have as many champ points as I do (over 1000).

I am also in a guild that does Vet Trials. These trials would be impossible without champ points. Sorry, I just can't agree with you about getting rid of Champ points. I'm a bit tired of folks that want to punish PVE players because of PVP imbalances. If you don't like the CP in PVP, go to a campaign that doesn't have them.

AuldWolf wrote: »

In other words, if we look at the reality of the situation then the populace has spoken. The vast, vast, vast majority prefer easier content. Yes, you might be able to say that Craglorn has a greater population than certain Old World zones that have never had a high one to begin with, but that's dishonest. You have to look at all the content that shares one level of difficulty, compare it with all the content that shares another, and then consider where the players are going. And they're absolutely not going to Craglorn.

That's why the Craglorn argument actually supports that the huge majority of people prefer content as it is right now, versus anything more difficult. It be spun any which way a clever, charming provocateur might wish to spin in, but the illusion is easily dispelled simply by taking a walk around Craglorn, then Vvardenfell, to see which is more populated.

The truth is is that the vast majority are fine with the difficulty as it is.

Adernath wrote: »

Your statement that the vast majority of people prefer easier content is not well founded at all. And to underline this take a look at this poll here.

Uviryth wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

The cp system is an end game crutch tbh. They t ake this away and people might actually have to wear sustain and max stat sets in pve instead of just stacking damage. And in pvp it will remove all the total min maxed troll builds that totally take advantage of sets plus cp to buff the hell out of something such as defile.

Without the CPsystem no one would play the game anymore, because there would be literally no way to advance your character. And no mmo works without an infinite horizontal progression.

Axoinus wrote: »

Would have been better if CP points unlocked cosmetics that are in the store...if you are a subscriber.

MassPandemic wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

the title is self evident- but with CP now at 750 - (almost 30 percent more than what much of the content was scaled for), with stronger and stronger item sets, the power creep has made this game boring. You re killing your own game here ZOS- youve lowered the hoop to 6 foot- where everyone can dunk it- and thereby making it not challenging for anybody . Dungeons are mindlessly easy now- they already were- but now even the latest dungeons, scale and fang , hard modes- well designed bosses, can be burned ,skipping the actually well designed mechanics.
vMA- once the measure of solo play- is now essentially as normal mode was a year and half ago.
Questing is just running from arrow to arrow and ending with a 2 hit thumping of a low health "boss".

perhaps this is the conscious strategy - to funnel everyody into continually buying new trials and DLC's, but would be a mistep. There is alot of value left in the old content- but ur making it worthless. At least perhaps re-buff the old dungeons and overland - to a third difficulty that drops Gold Jewellery, or something of the like.
Anyway - maybe some people enjoy this- but I want the game to be as challenging as it once was- when you had to get a group to go into craglorn- when you needed help to do a dolmen, when finishing a trial was satisfying. now it seems you hit a certain CP- and u turn a corner and 98 percent of the games content becomes futile.

No i don't know anyone who enjoys how the world feels anymore atleast if they are over 500 cp. I kill mobs in literally 2 hits on my sorc sometimes even 1. They definitely need to buff the outdoor world and other areas. It shouldnt technically be too hard id imagine if they did their own scaling tech right.