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ZOS- please stop the power creep- you've made your own content redundant.
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gnarlyvandal✭✭✭Skeletalkk wrote: »I'm only level 300 something (whatever, who cares) I mostly play PvE but its so boring not even having to really use skills during PvE, I'm just clicking a few times and it kills most mobs even small bosses, its just not fun.
edit: also killing bosses before they finish their first sentence lmao whats that all about?
Finishing a really good quest, reaching the big guy and killing him in a few seconds......
This. I keep seeing the naysayers mention over and over again that making overland ‘challenging’ would scare players away.
What people don’t seem to realise is that it’s not about a challenge, but a supposedly ‘strong’ enemy dying so fast you don’t even notice they are a mini-boss seems pointless and not worth it.
Why even call them mini-bosses?Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
So we have to raid vAS HM etc. to being "allowed" to find overland conten funsucking easy? That's a very obscure opinion. Not to mention that thanks to the easy ol content you run into a brick wall once you set foot into a more demanding environment.
@Chilly-McFreeze
Your comment makes little sense. If I have missed the point completely then I suggest you please reword your statement.
I have said nothing that being able to clear vAS HM is required for overland content to be extremely easy.
I suggest reading over the several posts I have made in here today to get a complete understanding of why overland is easy and that their is a tiered difficulty in ESO like most MMORPGs.
I have not been expressing my opinion but merely stating why it will not change. For higher difficulty there is other content in the game to suite most difficulty levels, like most MMORPGs have.
This guy really doesn’t get it. Chilli-mcfreeze seems to be saying that the content is easy and pointing out that you’re implying those saying overland content is too easy haven’t done the vet / HM versions of the game and so can’t have an opinion on questing. Furthermore, once you do step into the harder content the player has been coddled so much they don’t know what to do and can’t seem to improve without tremendous effort.
Pretty self explanatory by reading it tbh.
I understand you think you’re pointing out reasons why it’ll never happen, but you’re also completely ignoring the point that it’s not about a challenge.
I’m gonna all caps the important bit just so it’ll stand out to you:
NOT LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE, JUST WANT QUEST BOSSES TO BE ABLE TO LIFT THEIR SWORD BEFORE DYING. ITS A FEATURE MOST OTHER MMO’S HAVE.
ITS CALLED COMBAT. NOT FACEROLL.
And yes, there are tiered difficulties in MMO’s, but in another MMO when you have to go and fight a boss they are usually considered ‘elites’ and tend to die slower than trash mobs. That is not the case in ESO. Quest elites don’t really die slower than trash mobs.
Also, you can’t really say what will or won’t happen in the lifecycle of this game as I’m pretty sure you’re not a member of the dev team at ZOS. If anything, ZOS seem to take player feedback into account; this game used to be much harder and scared many away, it was subsequently made easier for newer players. I think this was a step in the right direction, BUT it doesn’t change the fact many of the quests are now feeling anti-climactic and the overly quick fights make for boring gameplay.
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Kuwhar✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
Just read my previous post rather than redundantly responding; quest bosses die in 3 seconds on a level 10 character with no champion points invested. That is a problem for most players in the game which is why these threads pop up every couple of days. Extending that 3 seconds to 30 seconds without increasing a quest boss’ power should be sufficient to solve the problem.
Read posts, then respond. Don’t be a ***
Im not sure how this can be a constructive discussion if its not an honest one.
I forget the name of the public dungeon, think its in stormhaven? With oathbreakers and ogrims etc.
Ran through that last night and none of the quest bosses "died in 3 seconds on a level 10". Im CP53 and even with other randoms in the dungeon helping on a few (cp100+) the bosses weren't pushovers.
Hell, slogging through that dungeon was a pain because groups of 5-6 mobs were pounding me through heavy armor.
Not about to say it was "hard" but, it seemed a good challenge where i had to pay attention but not be mashing like a crazy person.
And threads like this pop up every so often because:
1. People mostly come to forums to complain.
2. People that are on the forums are more likely to be the hardcore addicts (not judging)
3. Those hardcore players are generally at the top in terms of skill, progression, number crunching etc.
I invite you to run through that dungeon on a level 10 and prove me wrong. Ill get the name later tonight.
Did I say anything about public dungeons? Don’t think I did. Maybe 1 public dungeon per zone? 1-2 quests per public dungeon? The dungeons designed for a small group yeah? Definitely representative of most of the overland quests...
...or not.
Ok nitpick, and ignore everything else i said.
Show me a video of you on a level 10, no CP, no purple gear, killing a quest boss in 3 seconds.0 -
Dreepa✭✭✭Since there are ppl on both sides of the argument, an optional hard mode is the only solution.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@gnarlyvandal
It is you that just does not get it. I have merly stated the very fact that there are various difficulty levels in the game. Chily clearly ignored that and merely stated vet HM trials of the more challenging variety.
You once again state it is not about challenge, Yet it has been stated overland and quests bosses are to easy which by definition is referring to challenge or lack of. Interesting. that you have used that word.
I really could care less if you agree with me or not. That is rather irrelevant since I am merely putting forth the facts as to why things are as they are and why this will not be changing anytime soon. There really is no argument.
You are permitted to have your opinion, as we all are, but it is clearly a stretch to try to state that I just do not get it.
Enjoy the game.
Edited by idk on May 26, 2018 6:49AM0 -
Adernath✭✭✭✭✭However, most of what is being discussed in here is very off base.
I seriously doubt most that have participated in this thread have cleared all trials in HM (not counting the newest one) and probably not many more have cleared all 4 man dungeons in HM and have no death runs in each of those dungeons.
If we were talking about serious power creep that is the kind of thing we would need to take into consideration , however, most the numbers for both criteria I put forth is still very low in the game.
Speaking for myself, I have completed much veteran content of the game, but I believe that one does not have to clear all trials in HM in order to have a say in a discussion regarding the difficulty of the game. I am quite sure that the vast majority of players play the game solo at any given time, even if they may step into a dungeon or trial from time to time, and have the right to express their opinion in regards of the solo content.
***
On the one hand we have our level 10 newcomer example which is not experiencing this creep. In my own experience I see most players of that level not struggling much either, but I find the difficulty may just be fine for them (I know this from talking to a complete newbie, its just fine)
But on the other hand, from what I see when I walk through Tamriel, is that most players are not fresh newcomers. Most players do not struggle with standard quest content like overland, delves and dungeons. This is just based on my experience through observation. I barely see someone dying at a dolmen, let alone a dolmen wiping a raid. By the contrary, often a dolmen is cleared in a half a minute or something. Is that exciting or not? The main bulk of the game's experience is the solo overland content and from what I see is that whenever I go, people clear content in no time, bosses are killed within a few seconds etc. Again, this is something I find by just standing nearby and watch people.
So overall the content is too easy in my opinion because everything is scaled to the newcomer level instead of the average skilled player.
And every DLC this averagely skilled player has more CP at hand in an average amount of play time:
Fact is that we have a power creep due to an increase in CP cap with every DLC. This is mainly affecting the capped players, but to a certain extend also the non-capped players due to the XP curve adjustments towards the new level cap. Today we have literally hundreds of CP points more than what was originally designed for the mobs as One Tamriel came out. Due to this increase in CP one can dish out more damage and consequently mobs die faster. Or one gets more tankier etc. also removing difficulty.
And this is the source of the problem and also of this discussion.
Now the question is: How to make the main bulk (=overland content) of the game satisfying for every sort of player, while maintaining a certain level of simplicity for newcomers? This is not easy to answer, in particular because a new player can go everywhere.
In my opinion the first step must be to leave the current CP where it is. This would at least stop the fact that the original content becomes easier and easier for the main bulk of the playerbase.
The next step would be to carefully adjust the difficulty of the mobs, taking into account those areas where mainly new players begin and where more experienced players are running around. This is not going back to leveled zones, it would only affect quest/delve bosses mainly and those areas which are far off the road. All no starter zones or more 'epic' dungeons should be focused on more experienced players (by which I mean the averagely experienced player as described above), in particular, all future new DLC content should not contain beginner zones anymore. I like the group zone concept in current Craglorn, in which more mobs are grouped together etc. Another idea would be to have some random elite mobs appearing which make battles a little more diversified.
Edited by Adernath on May 26, 2018 8:07AM4 -
gnarlyvandal✭✭✭@gnarlyvandal
It is you that just does not get it. I have merly stated the very fact that there are various difficulty levels in the game. Chily clearly ignored that and merely stated vet HM trials of the more challenging variety.
You once again state it is not about challenge, Yet it has been stated overland and quests bosses are to easy which by definition is referring to challenge or lack of. Interesting. that you have used that word.
I really could care less if you agree with me or not. That is rather irrelevant since I am merely putting forth the facts as to why things are as they are and why this will not be changing anytime soon. There really is no argument.
You are permitted to have your opinion, as we all are, but it is clearly a stretch to try to state that I just do not get it.
Enjoy the game.
Not discussing various difficulties of the game. We’re discussing generic over land quests, the bulk of the game
Wasn’t discussing having a challenge, but I have used the word because for some reason you’ve included it in every one of your posts. I used it to point out that it’s not a challenge I seek, but a slightly longer fight on an enemy designed with fighting mechanics but dies too fast for the player to see those mechanics.
You’ve also completely missed the point of chily’s post, which I did attempt to explain for you, but for some reason you also seem to not understand; tell me where can I change the difficulty of overland quests? Oh I can’t.
Oh jumping into vet content fresh from normal content is a radically big change that the player was unprepared for; <— this is chilys point
Yes we are all allowed our opinions, it’s just too bad your responses are incongruent to what is being discussed.
But yeah I’m done, not worth the time and effort. Many players feel there is an issue. If zos decides to address it or not that’ll be up to them. I don’t think any of us can put facts across as to why they will or won’t change it in the future. Simply because we don’t work for ZOS
Edited by gnarlyvandal on May 26, 2018 9:23AM1 -
Darrett✭✭✭✭One issue with talking about “no-cp level 10s” is that those characters are ridiculously boosted in their stats to make the One Tamriel system work. Low levels are significantly more powerful than a new 50 or a mid-range CP character.
When I’m doing a quest and see somebody blazing through the content (which generally means I have to take a short break while they kill everything and leave so I can get back to playing), it’s either a low level or very high CP. anything around 40-50 or up into the 300-400 CP range seems to be better balanced for the content, though.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭However, most of what is being discussed in here is very off base.
I seriously doubt most that have participated in this thread have cleared all trials in HM (not counting the newest one) and probably not many more have cleared all 4 man dungeons in HM and have no death runs in each of those dungeons.
If we were talking about serious power creep that is the kind of thing we would need to take into consideration , however, most the numbers for both criteria I put forth is still very low in the game.
Speaking for myself, I have completed much veteran content of the game, but I believe that one does not have to clear all trials in HM in order to have a say in a discussion regarding the difficulty of the game. I am quite sure that the vast majority of players play the game solo at any given time, even if they may step into a dungeon or trial from time to time, and have the right to express their opinion in regards of the solo content.
Clearly I did not say it was a requirement to clear all trials on HM to be able to proclaim ones opinion in the matter but merely was pointing out few in this thread really push themselves to experience more challenging content as it is. Based on your post and Chilly's it seems to have served more as a distraction that has lead to derailing the core of my comments in this thread.
For the most part I have explained why the overland and regular questing is the way it is here in ESO and in a majority of the larger MMORPs currently with a good active player base.
Instead of understanding that, and understanding that I am not arguing against peoples opinions, players like [snip] try to argue with me which serves zero purpose since I have already stated it matters none to me.
[snip]
Especially since what most of us consider to be a low difficulty level really has nothing to do with CP, or any other power creep, since it has always been easy since April 2014. There was no power creep in April 2014.
I am sure someone will once again try to discredit me by saying I just do not get it which is a lame argument.
Enjoy the game. Continuing to put forth false arguments in this thread will change nothing.
[Edit to remove bait.]
Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on May 26, 2018 4:37PM0 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I liked the cp before the nerfs but now it is dumb af i cant even complete half this vet dlc content because the huge gap in cp and skill levels in eso0 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭
The next step would be to carefully adjust the difficulty of the mobs, taking into account those areas where mainly new players begin and where more experienced players are running around. This is not going back to leveled zones, it would only affect quest/delve bosses mainly and those areas which are far off the road. All no starter zones or more 'epic' dungeons should be focused on more experienced players (by which I mean the averagely experienced player as described above), in particular, all future new DLC content should not contain beginner zones anymore. I like the group zone concept in current Craglorn, in which more mobs are grouped together etc. Another idea would be to have some random elite mobs appearing which make battles a little more diversified.
I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you here. While you're claiming that it doesn't return to the leveled zones, and technically it doesn't, it still utterly guts One Tamriel's go almost anywhere (except Craglorn) at any time appeal (and you admit as much by dilineating things into "starter zones" and "non-starter zones"). And that's one of my favorite aspects of the game. You don't have to start every player on every character in the same boring, years'-old alliance story. You can go to Wrothgar, the Gold Coast, Hew's Bane, Vvardenfell, or, now, Summerset. You can take your Khajiit to Reaper's March and wander around. The world is your oyster. And that's awesome.
I also profoundly disagree with the belief that all DLC zones moving forward need to be tailored to experienced players. Because they don't. And I say this as an experienced, veteran-ish, certainly not new player. Every DLC dungeon going forward looks like it's going to be at the typical DLC dungeon level of difficulty. Every trial or mini-trial looks like it's going to be tougher than Craglorn. We veteran, high CP players don't need to gobble up the rest of the yearly release pie, too. I also refuse to believe, or suggest, or claim, that we need to tell new or returning players who've been drawn in by the hype surrounding the DLC/Chapter release "Nope, sorry. This is our sandbox. You go back to the years-old zones. They're the starter zones." Not every game needs to be like Runescape where every player drops from the same tutorial into Lumbridge and go through everything in the same order and new areas are almost entirely for higher level players, and the fact that this game allows new players/characters to dive right into the newest overland content without missing a beat is outstanding to me.
Granted, the group aspect of Craglorn is absolutely my least favorite part of the game, as I dislike slogging through overlarge mob groups for two hours or more to complete quests, or waiting for someone to stop what they're doing so they can help me move forward (I enjoy questing alone at my own, sometimes breakneck pace). Also, playing dodge the elite mob in Imperial City hasn't upped my enjoyment level a single nanomillimeter (but has cranked my frustration level to 11).
I can understand stopping CP progression (though I'd prefer a rounder, less arbitrary number than 750, I think). I can even get behind a difficulty slider or vet overland mode (though I don't agree with locking additional super awesome achieves/items behind it), so that people can choose the challenge if they want it, while still experiencing all the zone has to offer. But gutting One Tamriel, making zones (new or old) solely for more experienced players, or making zones more like Imperial City or Craglorn are all things I do not remotely agree with and will not support. At all.Edited by BrightOblivion on May 26, 2018 4:38PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
You also seem to have limited experience in other MMO’s,
I have years of experience in MMOs. Thank you very much.
I think the issue we have here is I am not talking about my opinion but merely expressing why Zos has, since day one, made overland and quest content less challenging, what some may call easy. This is extremely normal and common with major MMORPGs of today's time.
Again, this is not my opinion, but merely why Zos has done what they have done.
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Bam_Bam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly dunno what the problem is. My main account has 948CP and my alt account is 0. I have lots of fun on the alt account without the CP perks. Either way, the CP system is someone's baby and they are here to stay.Joined January 2014
PC EU - PvE & BGs & PvP (Vivec)
Grand Master Crafter
#DiscordHypeSquad
Stream
Lims Kragm'a
Bam Bam Bara0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Don’t forget that ESO appeals to Skyrim bros who play this game as though it’s Skyrim. The average damage dealer in normal and vet dungeons pulls about 10k DPS or less by spamming light and heavy attacks (with the occasional bit of Snipe spam thrown in for good measure), and they don’t care to improve. It’s not uncommon to find people with 300+ CP struggling to kill overland mobs in under 3 seconds.
This doesn’t scream “bad player” to me as much as it does “bad game balance”. The reason those filthy casuals are taking more than 3 seconds from a cold start (horrors!) is because they don’t read forums to determine what the new overpowered build of the month is, and instead find skills they like to use with the expectation that all skills should be viable.
To be honest, the biggest issue the game faces for me right now are the people with such ridiculously high DPS that they one-shot everything in a public dungeon. When one of those FotM DPS players rolls through, it causes others to have to wait to get to experience the content. It’s no fun to be fighting a boss and have somebody run through and kill it in three seconds.
A heavy reduction on the top end is needed, and soft caps are the way to accomplish that.
Lol. Or just get better. You really shouldn’t be taking all day with public dungeon bosses. Most of the time I don’t even realize it IS a boss until it takes about 3 seconds. Then I’m like, “Oh, that musta been a boss”. Lol.
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ArcVelarian✭✭✭✭✭An easy solution to the difficulty griping would be to buff overland mobs to scale up to CP 250, and Dungeon/Trial mobs to scale up to CP 500.
Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.0 -
kaiage✭✭✭...the hoop to 6 foot- where everyone can dunk it-
I find this quote offensife to bosmer.an anonymous EP nightblade and Templar...
also; a warden and nightblade of the aldmeri flavour.
"there's a dragon with matches, that's loose on the town..."
"it's no easy road, this struggle and strife... we find ourselves, in the show of life" - tab @ the tab
If you've been fallen by my steel or blade - sorry there's no tomorrow for yeh!
Kidding;) don't take it so bad, I've been doing this a long time1 -
l.ys✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.
I'm sure i've annoyed half of the forums saying this over and over but its true. The champion system is the root cause of all the power creep and all of the terrible class skill nerfs.
The CP system should offer non-combat enhancing perks. Such as making wolves not attack you. (Beastmaster perk) No more stat pool increases, defense increases or flat damage perks.
sooooo....fishing perks? master angler is fecking time consuming0 -
Pops_ND_Irish✭✭✭✭✭the title is self evident- but with CP now at 750 - (almost 30 percent more than what much of the content was scaled for), with stronger and stronger item sets, the power creep has made this game boring. You re killing your own game here ZOS- youve lowered the hoop to 6 foot- where everyone can dunk it- and thereby making it not challenging for anybody . Dungeons are mindlessly easy now- they already were- but now even the latest dungeons, scale and fang , hard modes- well designed bosses, can be burned ,skipping the actually well designed mechanics.
vMA- once the measure of solo play- is now essentially as normal mode was a year and half ago.
Questing is just running from arrow to arrow and ending with a 2 hit thumping of a low health "boss".
perhaps this is the conscious strategy - to funnel everyody into continually buying new trials and DLC's, but would be a mistep. There is alot of value left in the old content- but ur making it worthless. At least perhaps re-buff the old dungeons and overland - to a third difficulty that drops Gold Jewellery, or something of the like.
Anyway - maybe some people enjoy this- but I want the game to be as challenging as it once was- when you had to get a group to go into craglorn- when you needed help to do a dolmen, when finishing a trial was satisfying. now it seems you hit a certain CP- and u turn a corner and 98 percent of the games content becomes futile.
Bye1 -
AuldWolf✭✭✭✭✭
Except you'll find not many people would actually want that. That'd be alienating the vast majority of the playerbase to appease the hardcore minority. Champions Online did exactly that, exactly that, and then died. The thing is? People like feeling powerful after a while. And what many MMO developers (and hardcore players) don't understand is how the majority of players play.ArcVelarian wrote: »An easy solution to the difficulty griping would be to buff overland mobs to scale up to CP 250, and Dungeon/Trial mobs to scale up to CP 500.
The majority enjoy:
- Making alts.
- Collecting all of the things.
- Seeing all of the areas.
- Exploring every nook and cranny for secrets.
- Experiencing all of the story.
- Gathering (and discussing) all of the lore.
When people talk about what they do in single-player games, do they talk about their epic armour? Do they talk about the hard fighters? Nope. They talk about their awesome house, their lore library, the characters, the story, the fun they had adventuring and exploring to see all the different places.
Most people don't want a game that feels like work. They have a job. They don't want a second job. They want escapism. They want fun. You have to make it just difficult enough, but not so much so that it starts to feel like a grind. Then they'll leave. This isn't WoW. The aesthetic, world, story, and characters aren't tailored to young children, so they can't count on that demographic using their excesses of free time to play. ESO is generally a game for an older audience who has more limited time.
When a player gets to a certain point with a character, they enjoy feeling powerful. That's why your scaling idea is a bad one. It takes their escapism away. The thing is? If they want it to be less easy, they'll play their alts; But sometimes, if they want to just feel more powerful they'll play their max CP character and have a blast.
Why can't the hardcore minority just run with white gear/no gear? Wouldn't that give them the difficulty they want?
The difficulty they desire is ARBITRARY anyway. Sorry, but I have to stress that. That word is super important. The difficulty they desire is arbitrary unless it's being rewarded. If it's being rewarded, you then get into difficulty creep because the better rewards make it 'too easy' again. And the difficulty creeps up and up and up and up and up and then ZOS is left wondering where their entire playerbase went. Just like what happened to basically so many MMOs lately.
This is called difficulty creep.
The hardcore request more difficulty. The developer obliges.
The hardcore request better rewards. The developer obliges.
And it keeps happening in a loop.
Then the game dies.
I've seen so many MMOs die from difficulty creep.
Not ESO. I like ESO. So please not ESO. Thank you. Let us have this. There are lots of other MMOs to be killed by demanding difficulty creep. Can't this one stay alive?3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Except you'll find not many people would actually want that. That'd be alienating the vast majority of the playerbase to appease the hardcore minority.ArcVelarian wrote: »An easy solution to the difficulty griping would be to buff overland mobs to scale up to CP 250, and Dungeon/Trial mobs to scale up to CP 500.
And this is the answer, except we are not talking the hardcore community as they do not look at overland and quests for their challenge (and we are not talking about hardcore challenge either but your point is well made).Edited by idk on May 27, 2018 4:11AM0 -
AuldWolf✭✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Don’t forget that ESO appeals to Skyrim bros who play this game as though it’s Skyrim. The average damage dealer in normal and vet dungeons pulls about 10k DPS or less by spamming light and heavy attacks (with the occasional bit of Snipe spam thrown in for good measure), and they don’t care to improve. It’s not uncommon to find people with 300+ CP struggling to kill overland mobs in under 3 seconds.
This doesn’t scream “bad player” to me as much as it does “bad game balance”. The reason those filthy casuals are taking more than 3 seconds from a cold start (horrors!) is because they don’t read forums to determine what the new overpowered build of the month is, and instead find skills they like to use with the expectation that all skills should be viable.
To be honest, the biggest issue the game faces for me right now are the people with such ridiculously high DPS that they one-shot everything in a public dungeon. When one of those FotM DPS players rolls through, it causes others to have to wait to get to experience the content. It’s no fun to be fighting a boss and have somebody run through and kill it in three seconds.
A heavy reduction on the top end is needed, and soft caps are the way to accomplish that.
Lol. Or just get better. You really shouldn’t be taking all day with public dungeon bosses. Most of the time I don’t even realize it IS a boss until it takes about 3 seconds. Then I’m like, “Oh, that musta been a boss”. Lol.
I do wonder with PvPers and hardcore players sometimes whether there's a sociopathic element. That isn't an insult but a genuine scientific query.
Does 'get good' apply if a person has a physical or mental disability?
What if they have anxiety? Can they not play your game, then?
What if they have motor control problems? Can they not play your game, then?
What if they have really bad sight? Can they not play your game then?
What if there are simply factors that don't allow people to 'get good?'
What if this is true for 95 per cent of players? What if only 5 per cent can 'get good' to the level you desire?
Are you suggesting that ZOS commit financial suicide by pandering to your desires at the expense of all of those other paying customers? Are you actually, really suggesting taking their game away? Really? There are ways you can create challenges in the game for yourself (completing content with white/no gear, for example). There is no way for many people to just 'get good.' This is a fallacy. A lie. A frequently repeated lie.
[edited to remove comment]
Everyone can 'get good.'
No, they can't.
I have motor control problems, poor sight, and anxiety. I'm screwed.
So that means I'm a poor pleb. That means I don't have the right to play something that more able-bodied, superior, naturally better (obviously) people can play. Right?
Are you actually reading this?
This is why I wonder about sociopathy.Edited by ZOS_JesC on May 27, 2018 1:16PM1 -
AuldWolf✭✭✭✭✭
So wear white gear or no gear.gnarlyvandal wrote: »NOT LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE, JUST WANT QUEST BOSSES TO BE ABLE TO LIFT THEIR SWORD BEFORE DYING. ITS A FEATURE MOST OTHER MMO’S HAVE.
ITS CALLED COMBAT. NOT FACEROLL.
Just because you can do it effortlessly doesn't mean that's true for the majority. Do you not have the empathy to consider that perhaps this is only true for you and a minority of other people? Do you perhaps realise that most people just don't use cookie-cutter, flavour of the month builds? Do you consider that other people might not have perfect reflexes and sight, and might not be able to respond as quickly as you do?
Why is there so much sociopathy on display, here? I don't understand. It's really unpleasant. You can create challenge by wearing white/no gear, can't you? So why don't you? This seems more about wanting the plebs gone and having the game to theirselves.
Yeesh. It's like I've been invited to a Veiled Heritance convention.1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Don’t forget that ESO appeals to Skyrim bros who play this game as though it’s Skyrim. The average damage dealer in normal and vet dungeons pulls about 10k DPS or less by spamming light and heavy attacks (with the occasional bit of Snipe spam thrown in for good measure), and they don’t care to improve. It’s not uncommon to find people with 300+ CP struggling to kill overland mobs in under 3 seconds.
This doesn’t scream “bad player” to me as much as it does “bad game balance”. The reason those filthy casuals are taking more than 3 seconds from a cold start (horrors!) is because they don’t read forums to determine what the new overpowered build of the month is, and instead find skills they like to use with the expectation that all skills should be viable.
To be honest, the biggest issue the game faces for me right now are the people with such ridiculously high DPS that they one-shot everything in a public dungeon. When one of those FotM DPS players rolls through, it causes others to have to wait to get to experience the content. It’s no fun to be fighting a boss and have somebody run through and kill it in three seconds.
A heavy reduction on the top end is needed, and soft caps are the way to accomplish that.
Lol. Or just get better. You really shouldn’t be taking all day with public dungeon bosses. Most of the time I don’t even realize it IS a boss until it takes about 3 seconds. Then I’m like, “Oh, that musta been a boss”. Lol.
I do wonder with PvPers and hardcore players sometimes whether there's a sociopathic element. That isn't an insult but a genuine scientific query.
Does 'get good' apply if a person has a physical or mental disability?
What if they have anxiety? Can they not play your game, then?
What if they have motor control problems? Can they not play your game, then?
What if they have really bad sight? Can they not play your game then?
What if there are simply factors that don't allow people to 'get good?'
What if this is true for 95 per cent of players? What if only 5 per cent can 'get good' to the level you desire?
Are you suggesting that ZOS commit financial suicide by pandering to your desires at the expense of all of those other paying customers? Are you actually, really suggesting taking their game away? Really? There are ways you can create challenges in the game for yourself (completing content with white/no gear, for example). There is no way for many people to just 'get good.' This is a fallacy. A lie. A frequently repeated lie.
[edited to remove comment]
Everyone can 'get good.'
No, they can't.
I have motor control problems, poor sight, and anxiety. I'm screwed.
So that means I'm a poor pleb. That means I don't have the right to play something that more able-bodied, superior, naturally better (obviously) people can play. Right?
Are you actually reading this?
This is why I wonder about sociopathy.
Uh, I didn’t read all of it, I had to skip some of it because it was creepy towards TL:DR territory.
Yus, I PVP. I’m pretty good getting better. Though, I was soloing public dungeons long before I made strides pvping lol.
Thing of it is if you’re seeing solo players dps down a public DUNGEON boss and it’s like awwww man I wanted to fight that boss for like an hour, you really need to play more and get a lil better. Just saying.
We’re talking about a public dungeon boss. A PUBLIC dungeon boss. You know a public DUNGEON boss. (You got me sounding like Allen Iverson). Lol.
It’s like die already and gimme the skill point. I’m not trying to fight that boss all day. I’m supposed to stand around and wait for some lowbie to wipe before I kill the thing. Should I stand around and wait ten minutes for the lowbie to kill the thing, THEN wait some more for it to respawn?
Nope, oddly enough I don’t even THINK that way when I join a lowbie in a boss fight. I think I’m helping. It’s why I never complain when some lowbie tries to help me when I’m soloing a world boss. I didn’t know I was ruining some lowbie’s fun. If so sorry.
Edited by ZOS_JesC on May 27, 2018 1:16PM0 -
Adernath✭✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »
The next step would be to carefully adjust the difficulty of the mobs, taking into account those areas where mainly new players begin and where more experienced players are running around. This is not going back to leveled zones, it would only affect quest/delve bosses mainly and those areas which are far off the road. All no starter zones or more 'epic' dungeons should be focused on more experienced players (by which I mean the averagely experienced player as described above), in particular, all future new DLC content should not contain beginner zones anymore. I like the group zone concept in current Craglorn, in which more mobs are grouped together etc. Another idea would be to have some random elite mobs appearing which make battles a little more diversified.
I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you here. While you're claiming that it doesn't return to the leveled zones, and technically it doesn't, it still utterly guts One Tamriel's go almost anywhere (except Craglorn) at any time appeal (and you admit as much by dilineating things into "starter zones" and "non-starter zones"). And that's one of my favorite aspects of the game. You don't have to start every player on every character in the same boring, years'-old alliance story. You can go to Wrothgar, the Gold Coast, Hew's Bane, Vvardenfell, or, now, Summerset. You can take your Khajiit to Reaper's March and wander around. The world is your oyster. And that's awesome.
The problem is that there is no clear distinction between 'go anywhere' and 'start anywhere'. And such distinction should be in the game more clearly in my opinion. If one is sharing content on beginner difficulty level everywhere and introduce a power creep at the same time, it makes the entire overland content - which constitute the main bulk of the game - completely trivial for the averagely skilled player. In my (and others) opinion that should be addressed.BrightOblivion wrote: »I also profoundly disagree with the belief that all DLC zones moving forward need to be tailored to experienced players. Because they don't. And I say this as an experienced, veteran-ish, certainly not new player. Every DLC dungeon going forward looks like it's going to be at the typical DLC dungeon level of difficulty. Every trial or mini-trial looks like it's going to be tougher than Craglorn. We veteran, high CP players don't need to gobble up the rest of the yearly release pie, too. I also refuse to believe, or suggest, or claim, that we need to tell new or returning players who've been drawn in by the hype surrounding the DLC/Chapter release "Nope, sorry. This is our sandbox. You go back to the years-old zones. They're the starter zones." Not every game needs to be like Runescape where every player drops from the same tutorial into Lumbridge and go through everything in the same order and new areas are almost entirely for higher level players, and the fact that this game allows new players/characters to dive right into the newest overland content without missing a beat is outstanding to me.
Granted, the group aspect of Craglorn is absolutely my least favorite part of the game, as I dislike slogging through overlarge mob groups for two hours or more to complete quests, or waiting for someone to stop what they're doing so they can help me move forward (I enjoy questing alone at my own, sometimes breakneck pace). Also, playing dodge the elite mob in Imperial City hasn't upped my enjoyment level a single nanomillimeter (but has cranked my frustration level to 11).
I am not believing but demanding. In my opinion there is absolutely no reason to make, for example, Clockwork City or Coldharbour on the same difficulty level then Khenarthi's Roost. If it would be tougher, a beginner or returner would just go back from where he came from or ask for help. If they struggle with such content then they are so inexperienced that the original zones are excitingly enough. Today Craglorn is well populated, it is a perfect example that everything works with a little harder difficulty. Therefore I can not see a problem making the difficulty of DLC content at least on par with Craglorn while stopping the power creep. Zones in which group areas are clearly indicated and every player with more than 2 brain cells in their head understand that there is more tougher content ahead.
I've made a different experience with Craglorn, for me it was a relief to walk through more challenging content. I am not sure what you are playing, but in the end you are playing an MMO and this game should have some parts in which grouping should be emphasized. The philosophy should go as follows: If you are playing a tank or healer than you choose it in order to support others, so team up. If you don't have a team, switch your abilities, because these two roles are just not meant to be that effective solo.
Anyways, you have your opinion and I have mine. Likely we will stay at odds, but I hope you agree with me at least on one point: the main bulk of the game content should be tailored around the skill of the majority of players - even in the future.
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Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
First off your "And this is normal for MMORPGs" in my opinion is not entirely true. There have been many MMO's in the past that have successfully made quest bosses tough and not a total faceroll (Lotro, WoW, Warhammer, Everquest, Everquest 2 and I can go on and on). I've been MMOing since 97' in Ultima.
I'm also curious how you seem so certain "that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content". I al;ways see this slung around in these discussions to try to seal the deal that their viewpoint is right. This game has been out 4 years. A lot of us have done a ton of vet things in this game to keep it fresh. The folks who feel the game has gotten too easy, what are they supposed to do? Just keep repeating the same old tired vet content day after day (which is a very low portion of content) until the next DLC? What if they've done all but trials. Are they then supposed to [snip] a large group every single day after a hard day at work and only a couple hours to play because that's all the challenging content that's left for them? BS
[Edited to remove profanity]
Everquest and Everquest 2 were made well before such things were ever mainstream. I dont think the two cited in a vaccume as their own timeperiod was a vaccume is a measure of success.
As for WoW, it's begun to abandon it's hardcore tendancies for the most part except for raids, imagine that.
Warhammer outright went -under- like most PVP centric MMO's.
Half the examples you cite have either changed, or gone under, and the other half existed in a near vaccume well before the genre had taken off. Everquests are still going today, but then again, so is runescape.
These prove nothing.1 -
FR0STDEE✭✭✭✭Lol. I love these post where people complain that the game is to easy cause their an elitist and want to tell everyone how awesome they are..........then the nerfs come and they complain cause their builds damage is going to drop buy 1% and the game is now unplayable.3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Don’t forget that ESO appeals to Skyrim bros who play this game as though it’s Skyrim. The average damage dealer in normal and vet dungeons pulls about 10k DPS or less by spamming light and heavy attacks (with the occasional bit of Snipe spam thrown in for good measure), and they don’t care to improve. It’s not uncommon to find people with 300+ CP struggling to kill overland mobs in under 3 seconds.
This doesn’t scream “bad player” to me as much as it does “bad game balance”. The reason those filthy casuals are taking more than 3 seconds from a cold start (horrors!) is because they don’t read forums to determine what the new overpowered build of the month is, and instead find skills they like to use with the expectation that all skills should be viable.
To be honest, the biggest issue the game faces for me right now are the people with such ridiculously high DPS that they one-shot everything in a public dungeon. When one of those FotM DPS players rolls through, it causes others to have to wait to get to experience the content. It’s no fun to be fighting a boss and have somebody run through and kill it in three seconds.
A heavy reduction on the top end is needed, and soft caps are the way to accomplish that.
Lol. Or just get better. You really shouldn’t be taking all day with public dungeon bosses. Most of the time I don’t even realize it IS a boss until it takes about 3 seconds. Then I’m like, “Oh, that musta been a boss”. Lol.
I do wonder with PvPers and hardcore players sometimes whether there's a sociopathic element. That isn't an insult but a genuine scientific query.
Does 'get good' apply if a person has a physical or mental disability?
What if they have anxiety? Can they not play your game, then?
What if they have motor control problems? Can they not play your game, then?
What if they have really bad sight? Can they not play your game then?
What if there are simply factors that don't allow people to 'get good?'
What if this is true for 95 per cent of players? What if only 5 per cent can 'get good' to the level you desire?
Are you suggesting that ZOS commit financial suicide by pandering to your desires at the expense of all of those other paying customers? Are you actually, really suggesting taking their game away? Really? There are ways you can create challenges in the game for yourself (completing content with white/no gear, for example). There is no way for many people to just 'get good.' This is a fallacy. A lie. A frequently repeated lie.
[edited to remove comment]
Everyone can 'get good.'
No, they can't.
I have motor control problems, poor sight, and anxiety. I'm screwed.
So that means I'm a poor pleb. That means I don't have the right to play something that more able-bodied, superior, naturally better (obviously) people can play. Right?
Are you actually reading this?
This is why I wonder about sociopathy.
Uff, really? Playing the disabled card here?
What if they are blind?
What if they have no hands?
What if they are paralized?
You're playing a real nasty card here for the sake of backing up your argument that is flawed to begin with. "what if only 5% can get good at your desired level?" is simply assuming the overland difficulty would be at vet HM trial level, but no one ever demanded that. All that is asked for, at least on the last pages, is that at least the bosses from a quest, delve, puplic dungeon should actually matter.
Which brings us to the next point. You are asuming people buy DLC/ Expansions for the story content. That is simply not true for everybody.
First off there are those who can not enjoy the content because of the ridiculous low difficulty, because how indiffirent the story climax feels. If you run errants for 20something minutes just to stumble over a 133k health boss, you won't feel like you really accomplished something. What's the point of building up a story if the final encounter is just like every trash mob? Because they have unique mechanics and some cheesy little greeting line which you both won't notice because they die so fast? With just LA spam you can easily get 10k dps, you can do the math how fast they die to an actual rotation. It's anticlimatic. For a role play game and especially for a mmo where you can always bring someone along. Which leads to the question why this is even an MMO if I don't ever need the help of someone?
And secondly not even ZOS thinks people buy their DLCs/Xpacs soley for the story experience. That's why they put so many things that should be base game features behind a paywall. Wardens, BGs, jewelry crafting. And that's why they add broken OP things to their releases that are nerfed down as soon as the break even point is reached. Huhu caluurion, sloads, etc.
Thing is, nobody would bite the dust if at least the bosses get a tune up. God forbid you actually have to invest time in a game and experience failure. Like this is happening in no other game. Is it realy that bad that a totally new player can't jump into the latest DLC and faceroll the final DLC boss without any knowledge, experience and skill?
Adjusting the boss difficulty would greatly increase the RPG feeling, the worth of the story and the feel of actually having accomplished something when you turn in the last quest of the DLC. It doesn't has to be unbeatable for 95% of the player base but it shouldn't be so easy that you don't even recognise a boss.
P.S. your made up numbers reek. No way you know what 95% can do.Edited by ZOS_JesC on May 27, 2018 1:17PM0 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know there's players that's not max CP and that can just steamroll through everything right? It's irritating when those with max CP all gold gear cry about things being too easy. Well, what did you think would happen? Things would get harder the more CP you allocate and the better your gear?
Not everybody can even get in a guild and do trials to get the best gear. Stop complaining everything isn't all about you. Casual players have to play to, and they're probably the majority of the player base.
Thank you. Someone said it.Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
Axoinus✭✭✭✭✭Would have been better if CP points unlocked cosmetics that are in the store...if you are a subscriber.0 -
Darrett✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »
Lol. Or just get better. You really shouldn’t be taking all day with public dungeon bosses. Most of the time I don’t even realize it IS a boss until it takes about 3 seconds. Then I’m like, “Oh, that musta been a boss”. Lol.
That’s right, I forgot that everybody plays with the same goals in mind, as a DPS in end game gear, using a build they looked up on the internet because a streamer did their thinking for them. Nobody plays a tank or healer or off-meta build.
Soft caps being reimplemented would accomplish your stated goal. You wouldn’t have as easy a time rolling through content because the effectiveness of your, sorry, that streamer’s build would be reduced at the top end, and it wouldn’t alienate players with limited time to play or desire to follow the flavor of the month.0 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »
The next step would be to carefully adjust the difficulty of the mobs, taking into account those areas where mainly new players begin and where more experienced players are running around. This is not going back to leveled zones, it would only affect quest/delve bosses mainly and those areas which are far off the road. All no starter zones or more 'epic' dungeons should be focused on more experienced players (by which I mean the averagely experienced player as described above), in particular, all future new DLC content should not contain beginner zones anymore. I like the group zone concept in current Craglorn, in which more mobs are grouped together etc. Another idea would be to have some random elite mobs appearing which make battles a little more diversified.
I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you here. While you're claiming that it doesn't return to the leveled zones, and technically it doesn't, it still utterly guts One Tamriel's go almost anywhere (except Craglorn) at any time appeal (and you admit as much by dilineating things into "starter zones" and "non-starter zones"). And that's one of my favorite aspects of the game. You don't have to start every player on every character in the same boring, years'-old alliance story. You can go to Wrothgar, the Gold Coast, Hew's Bane, Vvardenfell, or, now, Summerset. You can take your Khajiit to Reaper's March and wander around. The world is your oyster. And that's awesome.
The problem is that there is no clear distinction between 'go anywhere' and 'start anywhere'. And such distinction should be in the game more clearly in my opinion. If one is sharing content on beginner difficulty level everywhere and introduce a power creep at the same time, it makes the entire overland content - which constitute the main bulk of the game - completely trivial for the averagely skilled player. In my (and others) opinion that should be addressed.BrightOblivion wrote: »I also profoundly disagree with the belief that all DLC zones moving forward need to be tailored to experienced players. Because they don't. And I say this as an experienced, veteran-ish, certainly not new player. Every DLC dungeon going forward looks like it's going to be at the typical DLC dungeon level of difficulty. Every trial or mini-trial looks like it's going to be tougher than Craglorn. We veteran, high CP players don't need to gobble up the rest of the yearly release pie, too. I also refuse to believe, or suggest, or claim, that we need to tell new or returning players who've been drawn in by the hype surrounding the DLC/Chapter release "Nope, sorry. This is our sandbox. You go back to the years-old zones. They're the starter zones." Not every game needs to be like Runescape where every player drops from the same tutorial into Lumbridge and go through everything in the same order and new areas are almost entirely for higher level players, and the fact that this game allows new players/characters to dive right into the newest overland content without missing a beat is outstanding to me.
Granted, the group aspect of Craglorn is absolutely my least favorite part of the game, as I dislike slogging through overlarge mob groups for two hours or more to complete quests, or waiting for someone to stop what they're doing so they can help me move forward (I enjoy questing alone at my own, sometimes breakneck pace). Also, playing dodge the elite mob in Imperial City hasn't upped my enjoyment level a single nanomillimeter (but has cranked my frustration level to 11).
I am not believing but demanding. In my opinion there is absolutely no reason to make, for example, Clockwork City or Coldharbour on the same difficulty level then Khenarthi's Roost. If it would be tougher, a beginner or returner would just go back from where he came from or ask for help. If they struggle with such content then they are so inexperienced that the original zones are excitingly enough. Today Craglorn is well populated, it is a perfect example that everything works with a little harder difficulty. Therefore I can not see a problem making the difficulty of DLC content at least on par with Craglorn while stopping the power creep. Zones in which group areas are clearly indicated and every player with more than 2 brain cells in their head understand that there is more tougher content ahead.
I've made a different experience with Craglorn, for me it was a relief to walk through more challenging content. I am not sure what you are playing, but in the end you are playing an MMO and this game should have some parts in which grouping should be emphasized. The philosophy should go as follows: If you are playing a tank or healer than you choose it in order to support others, so team up. If you don't have a team, switch your abilities, because these two roles are just not meant to be that effective solo.
Anyways, you have your opinion and I have mine. Likely we will stay at odds, but I hope you agree with me at least on one point: the main bulk of the game content should be tailored around the skill of the majority of players - even in the future.
To be blunt, "demanding" is even worse. That's like jumping up and down and shouting "No new content for them! They have enough! Everything from here on in should be tailored to me! Me, me, me, me, me! They can go pick flowers or something." And I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. I mean, are you even reading what you're typing? "If it's tougher, they'll just go back where they came from." Seriously?
Except Craglorn is populated because it's the prime spot to get people for trials. It's populated because there's nirncrux in them there resource nodes. It's populated because it has Skyreach and DSA. It's most certainly not populated because the questing is amazingly balanced. You just have to sit and watch how many people run into those group instances (that aren't Skyreach) to see that.
I play a CP739 petsorc, by the way. Proper skills and rotation (although I think I'm currently wearing my sneaking jewelry to, well, sneak, but everything else is normal at least purple pet sorc stuff). I've beaten vMA (8 times in 6 days from when I first beat it), vDSA, vAA, vHRC, the Imperial City and Hist dungeons on vet, and everything else (except Cloudrest on Live, though I did beat it on PTS) on at least normal. I spent 16 hours (4 hours each on 4 Fridays) with an incredible group of people in order to knock out nHoF for our first time. I say all that not to brag, but to say I'm neither averse to challenge or grouping. I just feel they have zero business being involved in questing/story content. If I want to move at a sedate pace searching every bookcase for eidetic memory books and actually listening to dialogue, I should be able to. If I want to shoot through at a whirlwind sprint, laughing as the town area markers turn white and Destinations quest markers blink out like stars at the end of time, I should be able to do that, too. I should not have to wait 20 plus minutes to find a group and rushed through at a tornado's pace just to progress the zone story. If I want that, I'll pug a dungeon.
I hate to break it to you, but we don't even agree on that. Not by a long shot. Because I believe, especially when it comes to the questing/overarching narrative story content, that accessibility, in some form or fashion, trumps challenge any day of the week. As the self-professed elitist snobs are so fond of saying when their precious veteran mode is besmirched, "that's why we have normal mode." And I'd be absolutely fine with some sort of vet mode toggle (but no extra super shinies, because y'all will gobble those up like Pac Man with the big pellets and be like "It's too easy! We need another challenge!"). I wouldn't use it, but sure. Debuff the player or buff the mobs so you actually have to follow mechanics. Whatever. But make it optional. And I don't mean "Oh, it's optional. You can just not go there."
What you're proposing- nay, I'm sorry- demanding is that they essentially kill normal mode and all additional story and overland content is just for experienced players. Anyone else can just go back where they came from or ask for help. And that does not, and will not ever, fly with me.
But, as you said, you have your opinion and I have mine. And we'll probably not get anything from continuing to debate it further, except an increase in my blood pressure and active minutes/steps count as I pace back and forth while typing. I just hope that, whatever ZOS decides, they pick something that works with both groups (like a vet mode or difficulty slider), rather than just giving one the finger and moving on.
EDIT: And even Shada's Tear, my absolute least favorite quest area of all time full stop, was more a frustrating, time consuming slog more than anything else. Three steps, massive group of mobs, three step, massive group of mobs. ... Ooh, puzzle! Gimmicky neried boss in poison water that my scamp is hung up on the edge of! Other side? More massive mob groups. Another gimmicky neried boss. Up the center! Giant spider with craptons of adds that I'm getting down to sub-40% then running out of stam because I'm blocking when it says to block and following the mechanics. Oh, look! Knocked down for 5 seconds and dead. Do that for 15 minutes or more, give up and sneak past. Okay, final boss. Gimmicky shield mechanic. 4 adds in 4 separate corners that you have to interrupt or you die. Take a few tries before taking two out, eating the other two, burning the shield bearer and the boss. Walk out more than 2 hours after I walked in feeling unfulfilled and angry more than anything else and never wanting to see the inside of it again even if someone paid me. It's absolutely not my cup of tea and I'd take an easy, breezy whirlwind sprint over that crap any day of the week.Edited by BrightOblivion on May 27, 2018 4:21PM1