Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Allright, I think I'm done here. People don't want challenge in a videogame. People don't want to group in a MMO. That's just sad.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I say all that not to brag, but to say I'm neither averse to challenge or grouping. I just feel they have zero business being involved in questing/story content.

Allright, I think I'm done here. People don't want challenge in a videogame. People don't want to group in a MMO. That's just sad.

Okay. Let me put it another way, oh judgemental one. If I want to challenge myself, I will do vMA or vet trials. I won't go questing. When I'm questing, I do it to enjoy the experience, to experience the story. I don't want, or need, quest bosses to be a 5-10 minute white-knuckle head-bashing session as I try to get around whatever silly mechanics the devs dreamed up, only to miss something due to lag and have to start over again. Not everything has to be like trials, dungeons, or arenas. That's what the trials, dungeons, and arenas are for, and, to put a finer point on it, that level of "challenge" should stay the crap out of questing.

Additionally, you seem to think that just because "it's an MMO", people should be forced into groups for everything. But I strongly disagree. I mean sure, you can group if you want, and there's lots of group content. There's a chat to socialize and a lot of other people around. And I will and have joined a lot of group content, and am as active in the chat as the next guy. But just because it's an MMO, it has to be all other people all the time. That's like being astounded by the fact that people would go to the mall- a location that generally has a whole lot of people and to which groups of people do go- and want to go about their business with as little interaction as possible.

When I'm questing, I want to move at my own pace. I'll listen to dialogue, talk to associated NPCs, loot all the bookshelves, rob people blind, or go haring off toward that thing I'm seeing on my map that I want to grab. But what happens when you add, or worse force, a group element to it? Well, you'll have people who have done it who knows how many times or just don't care rushing through everything, killing it all as fast as they can, and raging at those behind them they feel they're doing a favor to. The slower people are constantly lagging behind, going through whatever chaff the people in front of them have left behind, raging at them and begging them, for the love of god, to just slow down. That's assuming anyone talks at all, and ignores getting into a group in the first place. In general, it's still not terribly social and somewhat antagonistic.

Where do I get this rosy picture of the future? The fact that it already happens in dungeons. Worse, because the dungeons are instanced group content, as some are proposing happen to certain questing content (caves and mines and such), everyone is booted from the area on disband, whether they've turned in the quest or not. And if they haven't, they have to find another group and ride that particular ride again from the beginning.

So, given all that, do you suppose you have an idea, just a shred of a speck of an inkling (jeesh, now it sounds like jewelry crafting), as to why I don't want forced grouping combined with questing/story content any more than it already is?

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I'll grant that some challenge on some of the more epic boss encounters might be nice, but it comes with a couple enormous caveats. First, it or some verion thereof still needs to be completely available to, completable by, and enjoyable for, the "filthy casual". Why? Because the overarching story is singularly important in a way that no other content- not dungeons, not trials, not pvp-is. I know that sounds silly, but please hear me out. More and more of late, the overland dlc and chapters have been tied to one another- particularly the Morrowind-Clockwork-Summerset triad, but even before that. If you stopped the story after beating Molag Bal, everything after just looks like filling in the map, with Clockwork City thrown in because Steampunk. It's only after one beats Kurog that one gets the first indication where we're headed and only just before that we have the remotest verification a certain character might not be dead. That sort of thing is too important to restrict to the skilled players who are able to beat the omg-super-ultra-mega-epic-boss-of-doom they've made so that people who can beat vMA blindfolded could find challenging.

Given what I've seen on the forums and in game, particularly in dungeons, I have the strangest feeling that vaunted majority some are referring to leans more toward the casual than the veteran. But even if it doesn't, I'd argue that the margins are too narrow, and the content too important. 51%, or even 60 or 65 (I very honestly don't think you'll get higher than that), is not enough to merit tailoring this content at the expense of accessibility to the other portion. If you can find a way to balance challenge and accessibility, either by finding the sweet spot in between or having two different modes or something else (that's not forcing people to group up or just telling them to "git gud"), then awesome. But if not, if it's a choice between accessibility for them and a challenge for you, me, or the rest of the hypothetical 65%, then accessibility must come first.

Why, yes. I did read what I just wrote and, yes, I'm as serious as the Knahaten Flu (poor Khajiit, and Argonians, and that one now pretty much extinct subrace who lived in Shadowfen but whose name escapes me- Kothringi, maybe?). I'll even say it again: Accessibility, and completability, for the casual must come first in overland content. Say what you might about "This is an MMO, dagnabbit!" First and foremost, it's an Elder Scrolls game (I mean, Elder Scrolls even comes before Online in the title), and two of the prime cornerstones of those games, outside of ESLegends I guess, are the story and exploration. Those aspects need to be available to as many people as possible in pretty much their entirety.

You can easily pull 10k dps from just and only spamming light attacks. Even on a non-meta build. If your so bad that taking down an 100-500k npc takes you all day I can really see where this "the game should cater to me instead of I should improve" attitude comes from.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I say all that not to brag, but to say I'm neither averse to challenge or grouping. I just feel they have zero business being involved in questing/story content.

Allright, I think I'm done here. People don't want challenge in a videogame. People don't want to group in a MMO. That's just sad.

Adernath wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

The next step would be to carefully adjust the difficulty of the mobs, taking into account those areas where mainly new players begin and where more experienced players are running around. This is not going back to leveled zones, it would only affect quest/delve bosses mainly and those areas which are far off the road. All no starter zones or more 'epic' dungeons should be focused on more experienced players (by which I mean the averagely experienced player as described above), in particular, all future new DLC content should not contain beginner zones anymore. I like the group zone concept in current Craglorn, in which more mobs are grouped together etc. Another idea would be to have some random elite mobs appearing which make battles a little more diversified.

I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you here. While you're claiming that it doesn't return to the leveled zones, and technically it doesn't, it still utterly guts One Tamriel's go almost anywhere (except Craglorn) at any time appeal (and you admit as much by dilineating things into "starter zones" and "non-starter zones"). And that's one of my favorite aspects of the game. You don't have to start every player on every character in the same boring, years'-old alliance story. You can go to Wrothgar, the Gold Coast, Hew's Bane, Vvardenfell, or, now, Summerset. You can take your Khajiit to Reaper's March and wander around. The world is your oyster. And that's awesome.

The problem is that there is no clear distinction between 'go anywhere' and 'start anywhere'. And such distinction should be in the game more clearly in my opinion. If one is sharing content on beginner difficulty level everywhere and introduce a power creep at the same time, it makes the entire overland content - which constitute the main bulk of the game - completely trivial for the averagely skilled player. In my (and others) opinion that should be addressed.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I also profoundly disagree with the belief that all DLC zones moving forward need to be tailored to experienced players. Because they don't. And I say this as an experienced, veteran-ish, certainly not new player. Every DLC dungeon going forward looks like it's going to be at the typical DLC dungeon level of difficulty. Every trial or mini-trial looks like it's going to be tougher than Craglorn. We veteran, high CP players don't need to gobble up the rest of the yearly release pie, too. I also refuse to believe, or suggest, or claim, that we need to tell new or returning players who've been drawn in by the hype surrounding the DLC/Chapter release "Nope, sorry. This is our sandbox. You go back to the years-old zones. They're the starter zones." Not every game needs to be like Runescape where every player drops from the same tutorial into Lumbridge and go through everything in the same order and new areas are almost entirely for higher level players, and the fact that this game allows new players/characters to dive right into the newest overland content without missing a beat is outstanding to me.

Granted, the group aspect of Craglorn is absolutely my least favorite part of the game, as I dislike slogging through overlarge mob groups for two hours or more to complete quests, or waiting for someone to stop what they're doing so they can help me move forward (I enjoy questing alone at my own, sometimes breakneck pace). Also, playing dodge the elite mob in Imperial City hasn't upped my enjoyment level a single nanomillimeter (but has cranked my frustration level to 11).

I am not believing but demanding. In my opinion there is absolutely no reason to make, for example, Clockwork City or Coldharbour on the same difficulty level then Khenarthi's Roost. If it would be tougher, a beginner or returner would just go back from where he came from or ask for help. If they struggle with such content then they are so inexperienced that the original zones are excitingly enough. Today Craglorn is well populated, it is a perfect example that everything works with a little harder difficulty. Therefore I can not see a problem making the difficulty of DLC content at least on par with Craglorn while stopping the power creep. Zones in which group areas are clearly indicated and every player with more than 2 brain cells in their head understand that there is more tougher content ahead.

I've made a different experience with Craglorn, for me it was a relief to walk through more challenging content. I am not sure what you are playing, but in the end you are playing an MMO and this game should have some parts in which grouping should be emphasized. The philosophy should go as follows: If you are playing a tank or healer than you choose it in order to support others, so team up. If you don't have a team, switch your abilities, because these two roles are just not meant to be that effective solo.

Anyways, you have your opinion and I have mine. Likely we will stay at odds, but I hope you agree with me at least on one point: the main bulk of the game content should be tailored around the skill of the majority of players - even in the future.

To be blunt, "demanding" is even worse. That's like jumping up and down and shouting "No new content for them! They have enough! Everything from here on in should be tailored to me! Me, me, me, me, me! They can go pick flowers or something." And I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. I mean, are you even reading what you're typing? "If it's tougher, they'll just go back where they came from." Seriously?

I am not jumping up and down but simply demanding a change, and not only for me but as others as well, for the sake of the game. So 'demanding' its a perfect valid description for what I am doing, nothing wrong with that. Also 'going back to where they came from' is meant how its meant without any form of insinuation: If one has a difficult time with hard content, one can go back first, level there and come back at a later time. If you can tell me an even better way to express this basic statement in other words feel free to say it.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Except Craglorn is populated because it's the prime spot to get people for trials. It's populated because there's nirncrux in them there resource nodes. It's populated because it has Skyreach and DSA. It's most certainly not populated because the questing is amazingly balanced. You just have to sit and watch how many people run into those group instances (that aren't Skyreach) to see that.

What you are trying to do is explain why it is populated, but a precise reason is irrelevant for a discussion of game difficulty because it is already proven: Craglorn HAS a higher difficulty level and IS populated. Same can be applied to future DLCs.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I say all that not to brag, but to say I'm neither averse to challenge or grouping. I just feel they have zero business being involved in questing/story content. If I want to move at a sedate pace searching every bookcase for eidetic memory books and actually listening to dialogue, I should be able to. If I want to shoot through at a whirlwind sprint, laughing as the town area markers turn white and Destinations quest markers blink out like stars at the end of time, I should be able to do that, too. I should not have to wait 20 plus minutes to find a group and rushed through at a tornado's pace just to progress the zone story. If I want that, I'll pug a dungeon.

Alright, so a challenge and grouping have no business in quests? Fine that's your opinion but in particular in regards to the more epic quests or the main story quests of a zone I strongly disagree with you. And I think I am not alone with my opinion. I want a little more challenge when it comes to specific quests and the feel of an accomplishment when I am completing them. Also in harder content there will be possibilities to enjoy, relax and pic flowers. But generally too easy stuff is also a game killer you know?

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I hate to break it to you, but we don't even agree on that. Not by a long shot. Because I believe, especially when it comes to the questing/overarching narrative story content, that accessibility, in some form or fashion, trumps challenge any day of the week.

The only part in which I was talking about agreement was the last sentence of my post, so I assume that you are referring to this statement and you really do not agree with me that the skill required for the main bulk of the game should be centered around the skill of the majority of the playerbase. Now I can ask you the same question: Are you serious or do you actually read what you are writing?

BrightOblivion wrote: »

What you're proposing- nay, I'm sorry- demanding is that they essentially kill normal mode and all additional story and overland content is just for experienced players. Anyone else can just go back where they came from or ask for help. And that does not, and will not ever, fly with me.

I believe you should read more carefully what I wrote: I already stated that the I find the difficulty level of the current overland content just right for beginners. But what I want is a change of certain areas in the zones, quest bosses and DLC overland content so that the difficulty is more tailored around the skill of the majority of the playerbase. Its not a general increase in difficulty everywhere, in particular starter zones should be excluded. Again, I would like to see an intelligent increase in difficulty and at the same time a stop in the CP power creep, not something 'just for experienced players'.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

But, as you said, you have your opinion and I have mine. And we'll probably not get anything from continuing to debate it further, except an increase in my blood pressure and active minutes/steps count as I pace back and forth while typing. I just hope that, whatever ZOS decides, they pick something that works with both groups (like a vet mode or difficulty slider), rather than just giving one the finger and moving on.

Don't worry I like a debate but I too see that we are just at odds here and won't try to convince anyone.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

EDIT: And even Shada's Tear, my absolute least favorite quest area of all time full stop, was more a frustrating, time consuming slog more than anything else. Three steps, massive group of mobs, three step, massive group of mobs. ... Ooh, puzzle! Gimmicky neried boss in poison water that my scamp is hung up on the edge of! Other side? More massive mob groups. Another gimmicky neried boss. Up the center! Giant spider with craptons of adds that I'm getting down to sub-40% then running out of stam because I'm blocking when it says to block and following the mechanics. Oh, look! Knocked down for 5 seconds and dead. Do that for 15 minutes or more, give up and sneak past. Okay, final boss. Gimmicky shield mechanic. 4 adds in 4 separate corners that you have to interrupt or you die. Take a few tries before taking two out, eating the other two, burning the shield bearer and the boss. Walk out more than 2 hours after I walked in feeling unfulfilled and angry more than anything else and never wanting to see the inside of it again even if someone paid me. It's absolutely not my cup of tea and I'd take an easy, breezy whirlwind sprint over that crap any day of the week.

Well, for me this the opposite experience since I like large dungeons to explore and the lore. Based on what you said before regarding vMA I am just confused that you found this such a struggle.

Sounds like stuff that should be required at all times while leveling during overland content.

I think people sometimes forget what it's like to be a newer player, or even a sub-CP160 player who rightfully hasn't yet invested the time and money to farm/acquire two best-in-slot sets.

That's what Old Craglorn was for, but people didn't seem to like it.

DoctorESO wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

That's what Old Craglorn was for, but people didn't seem to like it.

I didnt play Craglorn at the time, but that was a global difficulty since it was intended for groups, no? The thing at least I ask for, is an OPTIONAL difficulty setting that functions on the player stats and not the monster stats.

If that's the case, what about just unallocating 50%, or even all, of your CPs? It's not as easy as a slider, but it seems it would have a very similar effect.

What do you do once you reach the cp cap?............

Do you say you want to put even more power to it or do you say it's mandatory to spread out/ allocate to go-to stars?
I'd say there is too much room already. With 250cp for each colour you barely have to make choices. Now we can just spend 60-80cp in thauma, the rest in crit, pen and a few in direct dmg on most pve builds.

'cause we all know that high cp doesn't always mean great knowledge and vice versa.