Why is Sload's still not nerfed?
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭11 pages and I still can't see the problem with the set. I hope everyone does wear it so I can trash them in 1v1, 1v2, 1v3, ...
Problem is simple. Set is adding up additional pressure which may look not dangerous but in fact is very strong. Lets imagine simple situation , You're fighting agaisnt someone and during 60 seconds of the fight You got like 3-4k DPS on that player because You also needed to go into defense he avoided some part of damage battle spirit lowered base dmg etc. Now add 1k DPS You cant do anything agaisnt to that 3-4k You was already doing. That is DPS increase by 30% just from 1 set. Show me set that will come close to that and allow You to reach similar DPS pressure on everyone in PvP.
Now imagine another situation. You're fighting some 1vX fight agaisnt let say 3 average players. It's normal in fight like that that to win You use line of sight to refresh buffs , restore some resources etc while You have lower dmg pressure on You since amount of dmg that stays on You is bearable. Now add 3k DPS on top of that dmg You already have since Sload can stack from multiple enemies and procs from eny dmg type and procs very easily. That 3k additional DPS will basicly push You totally into defense and will make refreshing buffs or restoring some resources basicly impossible which means You'll die. It'll look like there would be constantly 1 additional player on You following You everywhere..
There is whole list of situation like that this are just 2 random examples. In non CP it's even worse. Argument like "yeah but it's not burst set and burst is all that matters in PvP" is not entirely true. Even if dmg is not burst type one but is very reliable it still needs to be dealt with by enemie and pressure because of that fact exist.
Someone calculated that to have same DPS like You're getting with viper in PvP You would have to replace it with additional 1,5-2k weapon dmg. Viper is doing much less then 1k DPS in real fight scenario.
Situation #1: If you didn't win in 60 seconds, chances are you're not going to win at all either way. In a 1v1 situation after fighting that long, 1K unavoidable damage is not going to matter. What will matter is whether or not you can actually predict what the person will do next, guess where their resources are at (so you can CC and finish them), and pray no one else comes along. If that's not the case, how would your opponent have NOT have been capable enough before to end you?
Situation #2: lol'd . And just how would you know whether or not you were supposed to win a 1vX, or that you would if Sloads was not part of the equation?
Situation #3: It's a problem in no-CP...but what really isn't?
#1 What are You stamblade ? I know stamblades are disconnected from reality and think every fight should last max 5 seconds and if it doesnt then something is broken but this is not how reality looks like. Also even in shorter fights that last 10 seconds usually DPS is around 5k at the end so 1k additional DPS is still around 20% dmg increase. Just in first 2 seconds of fight this set can do 2,7k dmg which places it high on the proc sets list. Basicly in every fight longer then 6 seconds this set starts to beat down any other set. As for resources goes well gues what will be drained because of need to deal with that additional 1k DPS ?
#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ? That is basicly double the amount of dmg they're sometimes putting at You so 1v3 turns into 1v6 just because they have certain set. As for how would I know I can win well I am solo PvP player since game launch and if You would be one also , You would know how do I know should I win or not.
#3 It's way bigger problem in non CP then many other things. Issues there are not equal this is one of the more serious onesEdited by Juhasow on May 28, 2018 5:45AM7 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »WaltherCarraway wrote: »Whatever breaks the cheeseness of sorc and nightblade is:
No player output required
Requires no skill
Needs to be nerfed
This is the problem with sets like Sloads. Players who use it generally think that classes that kill them are cheese and will use all the proc sets they can believing that the fight is now even. It’s the sad state of ESO PvP. Mag sorcs haven’t been cheese for some time. The only thing OP about NBs atm is incap and this partly due to the strength of defile and partly due to the number of offensive effects it carries.
But that is only your opinion. I , for myself believe that the ability to disappear and run away from potentially any fight is overpowered.
Not to mention how good it is compared to Dks fragmented shields or templar's ritual. Completely absorbing damage > healing/mitigating it.
I think nightblades overperform because they have the best single target ultimate+best defensive mechanic+best passives for their intended role. When you make a build you take survivability, damage, sustain into account. Stamblades do have all three of these things, and again, any stamina class can have good mobility with potions so thats not an issue aswell.
All these things combined make stamblades what they are right now.
Guaranteed that if you made incap a normal ultimate for that cost, say remove defile and the subsequent damage bonus, NBs would not seem nearly as powerful. Cloak is annoying, but not more so than other skills. I don’t like fighting NBs, I don’t like playing them, but if you went after all three of their strengths you mention they would be trash. NB remains one of the few (only?) unique stam classes and I’d not want to see that disappear. I’ve long thought cloak should have a stamina morph as well as a mag morph and that a cost increase should be applied to it similar to streak, but I still don’t think cloak is OP necessarily. It’s only really that strong 1v1, and honestly if a NB just wants to run away or reset the fight constantly I usually just get bored and walk away. The only people capable of preventing me from doing so are usually the players who don’t need to cloak away constantly anyhow. Idk personally I’ve never had much luck with cloak, hate the skill. Maybe it’s becsuse I play fromdwemer_paleologist wrote: »dwemer_paleologist wrote: »dwemer_paleologist wrote: »will zos please change this set already! it took them a week to change the new trial sets >_<
this again?
all you have to do is cast Purge and sloads is removed instantly.
sloads does not need changed, nor nerfed.
just cast alliance skill "purge" and your cleansed from it. it will take another 6 seconds before it can proc again and in addition to that, if you are getting hit by multiple sloads from a zerg then you are allready going to die from the zerg of people attacking you, all you can do at that point is purge, cleanse, and stick with your group or zerg, and btw, you would have died anyway from the amount of people attacking you.
TLDR:
"just cast purge and sloads is removed"
so WTB purge costing less than half on my magica + additional skill slot only to counter SINGLE PROC SET
so, whats the problem here?
you use the counter or dont use it.
iehter way the counter to sloads is there.
sloads is counterable. set needs no changes just because one refuses to counter with purge skill.
stam going to use purge?
how can anyone help you if you refuse to accept that help.
here is the situation, we all have access to purge on, its obtainable by all.
just slot it and you have a counter to sloads armor set used against you.
I hate this answer because most builds cannot sacrifice any skill slots. And to have to get rid of soemthing important like a Damage, CC, healing or buff just to deal with one OP set is ridiculous. That means gimping yourself against all classes and in all situations just so the tryhards get to keep their OP set.3 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.5 -
_Ahala_✭✭✭✭✭
✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »will zos please change this set already! it took them a week to change the new trial sets >_<
this again?
all you have to do is cast Purge and sloads is removed instantly.
sloads does not need changed, nor nerfed.
just cast alliance skill "purge" and your cleansed from it. it will take another 6 seconds before it can proc again and in addition to that, if you are getting hit by multiple sloads from a zerg then you are allready going to die from the zerg of people attacking you, all you can do at that point is purge, cleanse, and stick with your group or zerg, and btw, you would have died anyway from the amount of people attacking you.
TLDR:
"just cast purge and sloads is removed"
so WTB purge costing less than half on my magica + additional skill slot only to counter SINGLE PROC SET
With Siphoner, Relequen, and the tons of debuffs/DoTs going around..... the odds of your Purge cleansing the correct DoT is nearly zero, since only two negative effects are removed on cast. So it’ll actually require you to spam Purge to remove a specific effect
that’s impossible in an actual combat scenario.
Also I hear Sloads cannot be Purged. Idk if true.
I’ll definitely be running this set next patch lol. It’s absurdly strong. They really don’t give af about PvP.
I highly dislike this set, it lives up to its namesake in my opinion... Luckily it can be purged (Confirmed on Live) and the wearer sacrifices the raw power or sustain of another 5 piece set to run it... I bless RNG every time Miss Blue Betty decides to remove it over the siphoning cp or some random weak dot
Logically it’s an irritating set that scales far better Xv1 and 1v1 than XvX or 1vX... but meh... As much as many of us hate it, it is what it is and will likely stay that way as zos has made it clear with its past changes that they want 1vX to die... if the X is happier than the 1, the game becomes more popular and therefore it’s sales and micro transactions rise...
On a side note, for any other magden mains out there (If you haven’t quit or rerolled already because of the irrational nerfing craze known as Summerset) I would highly recommend utilizing living trellis under whichever light armor ward you prefer and blue betty to counter this nonsenseEdited by _Ahala_ on May 28, 2018 7:24AM0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
That's bullcrap, if the X solely win because they equipped Y then Y is overperfoming. This game isn't a crappy liberal Art campus where everyone gets to win, if you are too bad to perform well you shouldn't get anything to carry you, you deserve getting rekt if you are bad.
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
That's bullcrap, if the X solely win because they equipped Y then Y is overperfoming. This game isn't a crappy liberal Art campus where everyone gets to win, if you are too bad to perform well you shouldn't get anything to carry you, you deserve getting rekt if you are bad.
With that definition, wearing armor is overperforming.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
That's bullcrap, if the X solely win because they equipped Y then Y is overperfoming. This game isn't a crappy liberal Art campus where everyone gets to win, if you are too bad to perform well you shouldn't get anything to carry you, you deserve getting rekt if you are bad.
With that definition, wearing armor is overperforming.
No it's not, balanced armor still requires the player to win the fight with his mechanical skill.
If a scrub is wearing Hundings he's still a scrub and won't be a threat.
Sloads from a good player and a bad player have the exact same effectiveness and that's what's crap.
Sloads gives you a strong effect with almost 0 skill needed to get the full benefit and that's the issue with so many things in this game like:
Poisons, Earthgore, Zaan, Caluurion’s, overload oneshots, trollking, defiles, siphoner CP and the list goes on.
All these things give bad players way too much without requiring any meaningful input3 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭If a scrub is wearing Hundings he's still a scrub and won't be a threat.
Sloads from a good player and a bad player have the exact same effectiveness and that's what's crap.
That's true.
But i think tweaking the damage from proc sets so that they are no longer BiS for top players would be a good enough solution. I don't see a problem with having a range of easy-to-use sets that are aimed at less performing players.
I understand you'd like ESO fighting system to be 100% based on mechanical skill and awareness like a competitive FPS, but such a game would never retain the population of potatoes needed for 1vX.
You would kill 1vX by trying to preserve it.
I might be wrong though.Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To me, it's not even about 1vX. It's about Oblivion damage as a design choice. I don't know what makes the devs think that having mechanics in the game the player on the receiving end has close to no control over (healing and purging are situational at best) is fun.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.5 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭To me, it's not even about 1vX. It's about Oblivion damage as a design choice. I don't know what makes the devs think that having mechanics in the game the player on the receiving end has close to no control over (healing and purging are situational at best) is fun.
Oblivion Damage, like all damage bypassing a specific defense mechanic (undodgeable, unblockable, resistance bypassing) is about giving players options to counter specific things they think are struggling the most against.
I do agree though that Sload having all these property (undodgeable, unblockable, resistance bypassing, shield bypassing) should have its tooltip lowered a bit.
Also maybe double all oblivion damage and make it affected by BattleSpirit so it is not useless for PvE ?
Edited by Aznox on May 28, 2018 9:38AMAznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club0 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭I don't know what makes the devs think that having mechanics in the game the player on the receiving end has close to no control over (healing and purging are situational at best) is fun.
Like current Sorcerer's burst combo ?
(joking, i'm not complaining)
Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club2 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To me, it's not even about 1vX. It's about Oblivion damage as a design choice. I don't know what makes the devs think that having mechanics in the game the player on the receiving end has close to no control over (healing and purging are situational at best) is fun.
What mechanic do you not have control over? Oh wait, you're that guy that said he didn't want to have to slot a heal like everyone else and complained about balance, when you're able to travel Cyrodil without a heal for the most part, but complaining when something pops up and makes you pay the price for doing so.
And really? Healing is situational? lol'd1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To me, it's not even about 1vX. It's about Oblivion damage as a design choice. I don't know what makes the devs think that having mechanics in the game the player on the receiving end has close to no control over (healing and purging are situational at best) is fun.
What mechanic do you not have control over? Oh wait, you're that guy that said he didn't want to have to slot a heal like everyone else and complained about balance, when you're able to travel Cyrodil without a heal for the most part, but complaining when something pops up and makes you pay the price for doing so.
And really? Healing is situational? lol'd
I do slot a heal like everyone else. Not doing so would be not only disingenuous, but in most cases a sure fire recipe for dying a lot. The discussion here is the same like every cloak discussion - saying that the counters are situational or lacking is a very different thing to not slotting one. What I meant by situational: Slotting a heal may save you, or it may not, depending on whether the heal is actually available or not.- Rapid Regen/Mutagen: As soon as there is someone within 28m you're not guaranteed to get the heal, unless you spam it
- Matriarch: With the damage increase across the board the pet dies even easier, and recasting takes 1.5 seconds while being snared on top
- Power Surge: Needs a critical strike to get the heal, so it's pure RNG if you get one or not
- Efficient Purge: Removes two negative effects, which may or may not be the oblivion damage DoT, the base cost makes spamming prohibitive
- Healing Ward: The final heal comes at least 1 sec later than it takes for the full DoT damage to be applied (as both run 6 seconds and it's not very likely you apply the heal at the exact moment of the proc)
- Resto Ult: You may or may not have the ultimate up
All of these may save you. Or not. That's what I meant with situational. Counterplay shouldn't be based on "maybe".Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.3 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It preventing cloak is really dumb. It’s enough to where it will get to where NBs don’t even use cloak in PVP. Kind of a bad idea. Unlike what it or shieldbreaker does to shields to where the shields still take the rest of incoming damage; it shuts cloak down completely.
The damage is not a big deal. Deleting an archetype isEdited by technohic on May 28, 2018 10:46AM1 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To me, it's not even about 1vX. It's about Oblivion damage as a design choice. I don't know what makes the devs think that having mechanics in the game the player on the receiving end has close to no control over (healing and purging are situational at best) is fun.
What mechanic do you not have control over? Oh wait, you're that guy that said he didn't want to have to slot a heal like everyone else and complained about balance, when you're able to travel Cyrodil without a heal for the most part, but complaining when something pops up and makes you pay the price for doing so.
And really? Healing is situational? lol'd
I do slot a heal like everyone else. Not doing so would be not only disingenuous, but in most cases a sure fire recipe for dying a lot. The discussion here is the same like every cloak discussion - saying that the counters are situational or lacking is a very different thing to not slotting one. What I meant by situational: Slotting a heal may save you, or it may not, depending on whether the heal is actually available or not.- Rapid Regen/Mutagen: As soon as there is someone within 28m you're not guaranteed to get the heal, unless you spam it
- Matriarch: With the damage increase across the board the pet dies even easier, and recasting takes 1.5 seconds while being snared on top
- Power Surge: Needs a critical strike to get the heal, so it's pure RNG if you get one or not
- Efficient Purge: Removes two negative effects, which may or may not be the oblivion damage DoT, the base cost makes spamming prohibitive
- Healing Ward: The final heal comes at least 1 sec later than it takes for the full DoT damage to be applied (as both run 6 seconds and it's not very likely you apply the heal at the exact moment of the proc)
- Resto Ult: You may or may not have the ultimate up
All of these may save you. Or not. That's what I meant with situational. Counterplay shouldn't be based on "maybe".
Going by your definition, what, then, isn't situational? Everything you do in PvP is a "maybe." Maybe you will be crit by the next attack and die, maybe you won't. Maybe you will be debuffed in a second, maybe you won't. Maybe your ult will work, maybe it won't. Maybe you will be CCd and die before you break free, maybe you won't. Maybe your damage shield you put on before getting hit will work properly, maybe the damage will ignore your shields anyway, maybe it won't do either and you die without a recap. Maybe the game will lag or stutter, maybe it won't. Maybe you will fall through the terrain and die when you get DBoS'd, maybe you won't. Maybe, maybe, maybe.
I don't know what ESO you play, but the entire game seems "situational" to me, at least in PvP. Even the complaints about this set are completely situational, so what counterplay would you suggest that isn't based on maybe and won't leave the "maybe" situations? Delete the set?
0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Kadoin
Not introducing the set would have been the best thing to do, but it's delusional to think the set will be removed. And no, not everything in PvP is a "maybe". Most times there is a "correct" play in a given situation, and the limiting factor is only lag. And especially for heals, most are not situational: the instant cast class or weapon line heals that target the caster first and are not tied to a pet.
The counter I would suggest is improving purge, which would be also a great help in other areas of the game, namely the strong defiles. If that's done one could adjust healing in return, which would be both good for PvP and PvE (most healing there is overhealing, and a healer is just a buff machine). I can see though that most people just like to defend the unbalanced stuff they play at the moment. People who really want some semblance of balance regardless of classes are a tiny minority.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.3 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭@Feanor not that i will ever know magsorc as well as you do, but have you tried squeezing a bit more Spell Critical and/or DoTs into your build ?
On a StamSorc at least, Critical surge can go from worst to best heal in the game when you can ensure consistent procs.Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Feanor not that i will ever know magsorc as well as you do, but have you tried squeezing a bit more Spell Critical and/or DoTs into your build ?
On a StamSorc at least, Critical surge can go from worst to best heal in the game when you can ensure consistent procs.
Increasing Spell Crit would work, but that's only possible in CP if you don't want to sacrifice too much. From my experience - which is just one tiny drop in the ESO Sorc ocean - Power Surge starts giving more reliable heals if you're above 50% crit chance with around 60% being some kind of sweet spot. That doesn't change the RNG nature of the heal though, you may not get a crit at all despite, and it also only works for a very aggressive offensive oriented play style. I play a bit more on the defensive side most times, but that's my own issue.
As for DoTs, yes, that would work too, but Sorc is starved for solid DoTs in PvP. Again, I want to make clear I'm not complaining about the set per se as it is just one of several cheese setups available. I just wanted to express that the set is bad design, and that a certain hypocrisy certainly is at play when it comes to how it affects different classes and play styles.
I just wish we had classes with interesting skills that followed a clear class identity, no damage proc sets at all, and better game performance. All of that is wishful thinking though unfortunately.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
LOL that logic. By this logic zenimax should never change anything. Even when mag dk was broken and able to 1v40 (literally not metaphorically) they shouldnt change that because those 40 players would be able to kill that DK if he wouldnt run certain setup and they weren't entitled to kill him. Even when potatoes were able to one shot experienced players by 2 button clicks with proc sets without giving him a chance to react zenimax shouldnt change that because experienced players wasn't entitled to survive that. Do You see how idiotic Your logic is ?
Yes I am entitled to kill certain amount of potatoes. This is how games works. Experienced players destroys potatoes even when they outnumber them up to certain numbers and the number is dependant of how unexperienced those potatoes are and how experienced this 1 player is. This is called skill gap and it's present in every online game. If there is onlY ONE thing that prevents this from happening , JUST ONE things that totally changes the odds and makes skill gap second or 3rd important factor that means this thing is broken and carries those people end of story.Edited by Juhasow on May 28, 2018 1:01PM4 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
LOL that logic. By this logic zenimax should never change anything.
Exact opposite.
Zenimax should change things when they feel it is necessary. Like, when they added sload.
And we as players should adapt to the new environment.Yes I am entitled to kill certain amount of potatoes.
If you are a good enough player that you are able to win despite of being outnumbered in the current game environment - good for you. But you are in no way entitled to kill X players just because you were able to before the game changed.Edited by Sharee on May 28, 2018 2:17PM1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
LOL that logic. By this logic zenimax should never change anything.
Exact opposite.
Zenimax should change things when they feel it is necessary. Like, when they added sload.
And we as players should adapt to the new environment.Yes I am entitled to kill certain amount of potatoes.
If you are a good enough player that you are able to win despite of being outnumbered in the current game environment - good for you. But you are in no way entitled to kill X players just because you were able to before the game changed.
Ok so zenimax should change things or we should adapt to things ? You give 2 opposite conclusions in 1 phrase. Also it's not like zenimax will change anything if players wont point them out that thing is overperforming most of the time. By Your logic 1v40 was possible because zenimax felt it's neccesary and 2 clicks one shots was a thing because zenimax felt it's neccesary. Development in this game maded so many mistakes with sets and abilities that saying they did it because "they felt it was neccesary" is silly. Sload is not 1st example proving that combat dev team is very short sighted with predicting outcomes of changes they are making.
Your arguments are not adding up and You want to completly ignore fact that developers in this game make bunch of mistakes when they "feel it's neccesary" and players needs to point this out because otherwise this unhealthy changes will stay forever.
Yes I am not entitled to kill this players because I was able to do it before. If their experience and skill havnt changed at all same as my I am entitled to kill them because of that. Your logic wants to totally cover up fact that skill gap is the main thing in every competitive online game and without it this is just game with brainless mashing of the buttons and counting You'll get lucky 1st.
Continuing Your logic noone is entitled to anything so everything and nothing at the same time should be possible. There are always rules and things people are or arent entitled to. Skill gap is one of them.Edited by Juhasow on May 28, 2018 2:40PM2 -
VioletVience✭✭✭No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
Sloads broken? Nope, just you bad in pvp. I can couter pugs with this set, why you cant?1 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭Your logic wants to totally cover up fact that skill gap is the main thing in every competitive online game and without it this is just game with brainless mashing of the buttons and counting You'll get lucky 1st.Yes I am entitled to kill certain amount of potatoes.
Can you show me a successful competitive online game where top players and noobs get put in the same arena for the laters to get slaughtered 100 times out of 100 ?
You should be thankful that going out in Cyrodiil to hunt potatoes as a sport is even possible, because you are not going to do that in LoL/DotA/Overwatch and whatever Diamond League you think to be part of.
Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
Official Cheese Lord
CP1500+ club1 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To me, it's not even about 1vX. It's about Oblivion damage as a design choice. I don't know what makes the devs think that having mechanics in the game the player on the receiving end has close to no control over (healing and purging are situational at best) is fun.
What mechanic do you not have control over? Oh wait, you're that guy that said he didn't want to have to slot a heal like everyone else and complained about balance, when you're able to travel Cyrodil without a heal for the most part, but complaining when something pops up and makes you pay the price for doing so.
And really? Healing is situational? lol'd
its not even about heals, its about hots, sorcs have heals but the shield is necessary to block the damage while the heal goes off, we have no hots and our only 2 instant heals require a double bar or someone standing in your aoe taking crit damage and you build with lower crit for pvp opposed to pve because everyone is either wearing impen or a shield0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its so much fun when 5 ppl put sloads on you at the same time, oh and not to forget the 60%+ defile they also roll around with:D Ah the smell of a fresh meta. Cheesodiil with laggy toppings.
PC EU
PvP only3 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Feanor not that i will ever know magsorc as well as you do, but have you tried squeezing a bit more Spell Critical and/or DoTs into your build ?
On a StamSorc at least, Critical surge can go from worst to best heal in the game when you can ensure consistent procs.
Increasing Spell Crit would work, but that's only possible in CP if you don't want to sacrifice too much. From my experience - which is just one tiny drop in the ESO Sorc ocean - Power Surge starts giving more reliable heals if you're above 50% crit chance with around 60% being some kind of sweet spot. That doesn't change the RNG nature of the heal though, you may not get a crit at all despite, and it also only works for a very aggressive offensive oriented play style. I play a bit more on the defensive side most times, but that's my own issue.
As for DoTs, yes, that would work too, but Sorc is starved for solid DoTs in PvP. Again, I want to make clear I'm not complaining about the set per se as it is just one of several cheese setups available. I just wanted to express that the set is bad design, and that a certain hypocrisy certainly is at play when it comes to how it affects different classes and play styles.
I just wish we had classes with interesting skills that followed a clear class identity, no damage proc sets at all, and better game performance. All of that is wishful thinking though unfortunately.
we have burning for a pvp dot lol just burning.........0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.#2 You assuming that 3k additional DPS on You wouldnt change much when You fight 3 potatoes You would kill normally ?
The problem here is that people assume that killing "3 potatoes" is "normal", and thus any change to the game's rules that makes it so you can no longer do it must be broken.
If the game released right now, for the first time, with sload, the fact you can not kill the above would be the new "normal".
It is the game's rules that determine who you should be able to kill, not the other way around.
No ? 1st of all game was released 4 years ago so rules apply to how it looks like not how it could look like. Also even if game would start tomorrrow if I would be able to kill 3 potatoes when they're in anything else but I wouldnt when they all have Sload that would mean the same thing as it means today , that the set is broken and carries people. It's not like this is the 1st set in ESO that is doing that. It was happening since early days of the game with larger or smaller impact and same as then same right now killing 3 potatoes was normal and when they were carried by sets and suddenly started to be real issue this setup was called broken. It's not like there wasnt sets nerfs in the past because potato players were carried too much. It's never normal when some set is carrying people too much even if the game would start right now from zero. It's always easy to tell when set is carrying people.
"I would be able to kill X potatoes, if only they did not have Y! Therefore Y is bad, and should be nerfed!"
You act like you are entitled to kill X "potatoes", and thus anything that prevents you from doing that is bad. That's just not how it works.
The other way around. You take the environment the game gives you(which includes Y), and then test your limits against that. If you can kill X potatoes - good for you. If you can't... don't blame Y. It's part of the game. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.
that is a perfect explanation. you worded it perfectly.
every time i am about to leave stealth and engage an enemy i have to consider who i am fighting and what type of armor i should wear and what skill i should slot.
everyone should do that, and every one Does have to do that if they want to win a fight.1
)