Skill Line Idea: Justice

Azurephoenix999 · May 2018

Skill Line: Justice

Category: World

Disclaimer: These abilities only affect Players in PvP zones, during duels, or if the intended target has a bounty. Innocent NPCs may not be harmed with these abilities either. Furthermore, none of these abilities may be used at all if you have a bounty yourself.

Ultimate Skill:
Hammer of Justice - Swing a mighty hammer at your opponent. Deals damage that scales off of their bounty. Morph 1: Hammer of Judgement - Also hits all viable targets within 5 meters of the original target. Damage dealt to each one scales off of the total bounty on each target in the AoE. Difficult thinking of a second morph, any suggestions?

Active Skills:

Iron Chains - Immobilizes an enemy for 5 seconds. Morph 1: Steel Chains - Immobilizes an enemy for 7 seconds and doubles their stamina costs until they break free. Morph 2: Iron Leash - Forcefully yanks an enemy towards you before Immobilizing them for 5 seconds.
Gorgon's Stare - Turns an enemy to stone for 2 seconds. Impossible to escape before it expires, but the enemy is immune to the effect for 10 seconds after they are released. Morph 1: Gorgon's Gaze - Increases duration of the effect to 3 seconds. Morph 2: Gorgon's Venom - Deals poison damage every second for 5 seconds.
Hircine's Mark - Slightly decreases the physical resistance of an enemy AND places a highly visible waypoint above their head for everybody to see, even through walls, that displays the target's current bounty. Effects last for 15 seconds. Morph 1: Hircine's Snare - Also decreases the target's movement speed. Morph 2: Hircine's Beacon - In the event the target has enough heat to be a Fugitive of Justice, every guard in a 100m radius of the caster will be alerted to their position.

Passive Abilities:

Heat Vision - Unlocked from the start. When you view a player with a bounty, it is shown, along with their current level of heat. Also allows you to attack players with bounties.
Criminal Pursuit (1/2/3) - After attacking a criminal, you gain Major Expedition for (3/6/10) seconds.
Bounty Collector - Should you kill a Player that has a bounty, the gold they would have lost had a guard killed them will instead go to you. Does not work in Duels or PvP areas.

Avalon · May 2018

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

Tandor · May 2018

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Disclaimer: These abilities only affect Players in PvP zones, during duels, or if the intended target has a bounty. Innocent NPCs may not be harmed with these abilities either. Furthermore, none of these abilities may be used at all if you have a bounty yourself.

No thanks. This appears to be open world PvP of the type that was initially mooted (although never promised) for the Justice System but subsequently rejected by ZOS, primarily because it would be so open to abuse but with the bad reception of Imperial City also leading them to realise that PvE and PvP don't mix and should be kept separate.

EvilCroc · May 2018

Hircine. Justice.
.
Okay.

Tandor · May 2018

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

In theory yes, but in practice it would render them meaningless as there is nothing preventing you with a bounty in one alliance area simply porting to another alliance area and playing there risk-free until the bounty has expired. Faction is really only of any significance in PvP, and even then it's readily abused.

VaranisArano · May 2018

ZOS couldn't figure out how to keep the original justice system PVP system from being vulnerable to griefing.

Also, the resounding success of Imperial City DLC shows that PVEers really enjoy mixing PVP with their PVE. Right?

Avalon · May 2018

Tandor wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

In theory yes, but in practice it would render them meaningless as there is nothing preventing you with a bounty in one alliance area simply porting to another alliance area and playing there risk-free until the bounty has expired. Faction is really only of any significance in PvP, and even then it's readily abused.

So, what you are saying is that it would almost exactly mirror what happens in real life? Every time there is a war, people cross the lines, cause a ruckus, steal, pillage, etc, then run back across and hang our until their crimes are forgotten by most people, then they do it again lol. That's just how things work in a war.

Tandor · May 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS couldn't figure out how to keep the original justice system PVP system from being vulnerable to griefing.

Also, the resounding success of Imperial City DLC shows that PVEers really enjoy mixing PVP with their PVE. Right?

I don't think it was just griefing, it was also the prospect of friends getting together and taking it in turns to be Villain and Enforcer so as to gift each other experience and loot etc.

You're right about Imperial City, except that it's not just PvEers who don't like the mix, just as many PvPers complain about getting partway through a fight only to be attacked by a respawning mob.

Azurephoenix999 · May 2018

Tandor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS couldn't figure out how to keep the original justice system PVP system from being vulnerable to griefing.

Also, the resounding success of Imperial City DLC shows that PVEers really enjoy mixing PVP with their PVE. Right?

I don't think it was just griefing, it was also the prospect of friends getting together and taking it in turns to be Villain and Enforcer so as to gift each other experience and loot etc.

You're right about Imperial City, except that it's not just PvEers who don't like the mix, just as many PvPers complain about getting partway through a fight only to be attacked by a respawning mob.

Would be highly inefficient to gift each other "loot" this way. You can't take another player's stolen goods by killing them, they just get lost as if a guard had taken them. The gold you take from them is what they would've lost if the guards had killed them (I.e. their bounty, or all the gold they have on them if they don't have enough to cover it). In other words, it can't be used to produce gold out of nothing. If you kill a player with a high bounty but no gold, all you'll get is the XP. As for the XP, the amount you get towards skill development, Levels, and CP is roughly the same as killing a player in PvP. The skill line itself goes up by the amount of gold collected from bounties.

In other words, the only way to farm the skill line would be to have a player intentionally grind out a huge bounty, get tons of gold, then let you kill them, have you gift them back the gold, and rinse and repeat. As this is only good for farming this specific skill line itself, and requires tons of gold to start with and plenty of effort to get up to the required bounty, I don't think it would be a very profitable thing to do. The only real reward from this would be the abilities in the skill line, which mainly serve to combat the relatively lax justice system in this game (e.g. no guards actively seeking you out, no matter how high your bounty is).

Currently, the only dangers in having a bounty are:

Stolen items can get taken by guards.
Money can get taken by guards.
Armor can lose durability and you might have to spend a soul gem if guards kill you.

All of this can be avoided by simply staying away from guards who, as previously mentioned, will never actively seek you out.

Adding players to the mix will force players who break the law to be a lot more cautious.

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

I agree with this. As for faction-specific bounties, I think we should go with the three Alliances.

Daggerfall Covenant would cover their main story zones, as well as Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, and Craglorn.

Ebonheart Pact would cover their main story zones, as well as Vvardenfell and the Clockwork City.

Aldmeri Dominion would cover their main story zones, as well as Summerset and the Gold Coast.

Killing an innocent in one of Cyrodiil's towns would depend on which Alliance owned the town when the crime occurred or, if no Alliance has control over it, it does not result in a bounty at all.

Tasear · May 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS couldn't figure out how to keep the original justice system PVP system from being vulnerable to griefing.

Also, the resounding success of Imperial City DLC shows that PVEers really enjoy mixing PVP with their PVE. Right?

It's the load screens...way to many to get there.

Axoinus · May 2018

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

I was a happier person before you brought this to my attention.

Avalon · May 2018

Axoinus wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

I was a happier person before you brought this to my attention.

Happy to be of service!

Osteos · May 2018

I'm curious what the average bounty is that most players allow before paying it off or waiting it out. I see Hammer of Justice being hard to balance out.

TheShadowScout · May 2018

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Skill Line: Justice
-snip-

Ehhh... they specifically stated they choose not to go for justice PvP, as much as I would like that.

But take a look at my idea for an "enforcers guild" to get some justice in PvE style...

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

Yes.
Yes, they should be.
And there also should be more justice!

bloodthirstyvampire · May 2018

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

As future emperors

they need to be able to ensure the safety of the citizens, for them to not care about the lives of the innocent regardless of their native homelands Is the markings of a future tyrant emperor

Tandor · May 2018

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS couldn't figure out how to keep the original justice system PVP system from being vulnerable to griefing.

Also, the resounding success of Imperial City DLC shows that PVEers really enjoy mixing PVP with their PVE. Right?

I don't think it was just griefing, it was also the prospect of friends getting together and taking it in turns to be Villain and Enforcer so as to gift each other experience and loot etc.

You're right about Imperial City, except that it's not just PvEers who don't like the mix, just as many PvPers complain about getting partway through a fight only to be attacked by a respawning mob.

Would be highly inefficient to gift each other "loot" this way. You can't take another player's stolen goods by killing them, they just get lost as if a guard had taken them. The gold you take from them is what they would've lost if the guards had killed them (I.e. their bounty, or all the gold they have on them if they don't have enough to cover it). In other words, it can't be used to produce gold out of nothing. If you kill a player with a high bounty but no gold, all you'll get is the XP. As for the XP, the amount you get towards skill development, Levels, and CP is roughly the same as killing a player in PvP. The skill line itself goes up by the amount of gold collected from bounties.

In other words, the only way to farm the skill line would be to have a player intentionally grind out a huge bounty, get tons of gold, then let you kill them, have you gift them back the gold, and rinse and repeat. As this is only good for farming this specific skill line itself, and requires tons of gold to start with and plenty of effort to get up to the required bounty, I don't think it would be a very profitable thing to do. The only real reward from this would be the abilities in the skill line, which mainly serve to combat the relatively lax justice system in this game (e.g. no guards actively seeking you out, no matter how high your bounty is).

Currently, the only dangers in having a bounty are:
Stolen items can get taken by guards.

Money can get taken by guards.

Armor can lose durability and you might have to spend a soul gem if guards kill you.

All of this can be avoided by simply staying away from guards who, as previously mentioned, will never actively seek you out.

Adding players to the mix will force players who break the law to be a lot more cautious.

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

I agree with this. As for faction-specific bounties, I think we should go with the three Alliances.

Daggerfall Covenant would cover their main story zones, as well as Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, and Craglorn.

Ebonheart Pact would cover their main story zones, as well as Vvardenfell and the Clockwork City.

Aldmeri Dominion would cover their main story zones, as well as Summerset and the Gold Coast.

Killing an innocent in one of Cyrodiil's towns would depend on which Alliance owned the town when the crime occurred or, if no Alliance has control over it, it does not result in a bounty at all.

I was commenting on the reasons ZOS gave for abandoning the original proposal, not the reasons for rejecting yours. So far as that is concerned, however, no matter how the addition of PvP to the Justice System is proposed, it always amounts to PvP penalties being applied to PvE crimes in PvE areas - and that will never work or be remotely acceptable to many players who greatly resent being told to either participate in PvP or drop some of the PvE content.

If you want to limit it to PvP zones, whether existing or created for the purpose, then fair enough. However, dueling is as far as PvP in PvE zones is likely to be taken, and rightly so. I'm not averse to the idea of strengthening the Justice System but it should be through PvE improvements, not by the addition of PvP to PvE content.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · May 2018

What has Hircine to do with Justice anyway?

Cuthceol · May 2018

Avalon wrote: »

I like the concept... but, something bothers me, that I never really thought about before... We are 3 factions at war, right? I'm always a member of the DC, so, if I go an rob the Queen of the AD, why do my own people want to kill me? If I go an kill a bunch of EP citizens (no different than what would happen if DC invaded an EP city), my own people consider me a mass-murderer and want my head! Shouldn't bounties be faction-specific?

at a guess because you're not a part of the military or those actions aren't part of a military campaign and therefore are criminal?

Cuthceol · May 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

What has Hircine to do with Justice anyway?

more to do with fulfilling the role of hunter I'd say

Minyassa · May 2018

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Skill Line: Justice

Category: World

Disclaimer: These abilities only affect Players in PvP zones, during duels, or if the intended target has a bounty. <snip>

That sounds like if I wanted to participate in the Thieves' Guild or Dark Brotherhood content, I'd be susceptible to being forced into PvP at some point, thereby punishing me for using content that I am paying money for.

Tyrobag · May 2018

logarifmik · May 2018

I like the idea, but not the implementation OP suggests. We need something special for law-abiding characters for sure. I hoped to have a choice with the Dark Brotherhood questline, but well, you should kill innocents to fight those religious fanatics, no other options provided. Same story with Thieves Guild, you either don't touch this content or become a thief. And there is no profit in not being a murderer and robber.