[VID] Cloak Causing DBoS to Miss

raasdal · May 2018

The solution is to switch to Berserker Rage 2H Ult instead. More damage, more survivability (15-30% less damage for 8 seconds, and immunity to everything) at the same cost. Only downside is single target vs multitarget and the Stun. On my DW/2H StamSorc, the 2H Ult is both my offensive and my defensive Ult. Saves my ass a ton.

For your case, i do believe this is Health Desync. If the damage missed, i would think the Stun would also have missed.

BohnT · May 2018

raasdal wrote: »

The solution is to switch to Berserker Rage 2H Ult instead. More damage, more survivability (15-30% less damage for 8 seconds, and immunity to everything) at the same cost. Only downside is single target vs multitarget and the Stun. On my DW/2H StamSorc, the 2H Ult is both my offensive and my defensive Ult. Saves my ass a ton.

For your case, i do believe this is Health Desync. If the damage missed, i would think the Stun would also have missed.

2h ult costs 150 while Dbos costs 125.
Also Dbos is AoE and does more damage + it stuns the enemy and can't be dodged and still does lots of damage when an enemy Blocks it

rfennell_ESO · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Cloak is set up to make attacks casted before it is casted miss, So if somebody throws a Poison injection or a snipe and I cloak after they are cast they will miss.

You cast dawnbreaker a hair before he casts cloak giving you the MISS, sense technically he cloaked out of your sight after dawnbreaker was casted, however dawnbreaker being AOE doesn't give a F and connects anyway, as we can see it did in fact stun unless that was procced by something else I can't see from my phone screen. The detect pot while having nothing to do with the miss really just adds to the confusion of the situation cause while you CAN see him the game does not stop him from using cloak. Your dawnbreaker WILL hit no matter what in that scenario because of the AOE, the cloak miss only can stop single target abilitys incoming if cloak is used after the ability is casted and before it hits, but it cannot proc miss vs AOE damage if set up as intended. If it could then Nightblades would be able to run through AOE at will as long as they spammed cloak, which I can tell you from personal experience AOE does pull you out of cloak.

Seems like it tripped up the UI though. Something that should be tested is if You pop a detect pot and a NB spams cloak can he still get a miss from incoming snipes, or will they land and simply say miss. If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it. Though it is much more likely that the UI system in this case dysnched or is not properly up to date with visibility during cloak, as its not something they probably thought about.

Every single target ability that has a travel time can be force missed by the NB casting cloak. The most frustrating ability in this lineup is the gap closers. Those are not HP desync and outgoing dmg desyncs - those are straight up misses. This is especially fristrating because when a detect pot is used, speed is sacrificed because there is no detect / speed pot, so if the NB simply runs away at normal speed while force missing the projectiles and gap closers then there is literally nothing the attacker can do. But that’s beside the point - the goal of this thread is to figure out what happened in that video.

In truth, gap closers (charges) still get you to the nightblade and hence resolve their primary function. The "I R teh grate animashun cancelar" (read as macros) types tend to hit you regardless though... They do it right through cloak and right through dodge roll.

Whereas ambush and lotus fan just flat out fail and cost you stamina/magicka.

Waffennacht · May 2018

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Cloak is set up to make attacks casted before it is casted miss, So if somebody throws a Poison injection or a snipe and I cloak after they are cast they will miss.

You cast dawnbreaker a hair before he casts cloak giving you the MISS, sense technically he cloaked out of your sight after dawnbreaker was casted, however dawnbreaker being AOE doesn't give a F and connects anyway, as we can see it did in fact stun unless that was procced by something else I can't see from my phone screen. The detect pot while having nothing to do with the miss really just adds to the confusion of the situation cause while you CAN see him the game does not stop him from using cloak. Your dawnbreaker WILL hit no matter what in that scenario because of the AOE, the cloak miss only can stop single target abilitys incoming if cloak is used after the ability is casted and before it hits, but it cannot proc miss vs AOE damage if set up as intended. If it could then Nightblades would be able to run through AOE at will as long as they spammed cloak, which I can tell you from personal experience AOE does pull you out of cloak.

Seems like it tripped up the UI though. Something that should be tested is if You pop a detect pot and a NB spams cloak can he still get a miss from incoming snipes, or will they land and simply say miss. If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it. Though it is much more likely that the UI system in this case dysnched or is not properly up to date with visibility during cloak, as its not something they probably thought about.

Every single target ability that has a travel time can be force missed by the NB casting cloak. The most frustrating ability in this lineup is the gap closers. Those are not HP desync and outgoing dmg desyncs - those are straight up misses. This is especially fristrating because when a detect pot is used, speed is sacrificed because there is no detect / speed pot, so if the NB simply runs away at normal speed while force missing the projectiles and gap closers then there is literally nothing the attacker can do. But that’s beside the point - the goal of this thread is to figure out what happened in that video.

In truth, gap closers (charges) still get you to the nightblade and hence resolve their primary function. The "I R teh grate animashun cancelar" (read as macros) types tend to hit you regardless though... They do it right through cloak and right through dodge roll.

Whereas ambush and lotus fan just flat out fail and cost you stamina/magicka.

I've noticed a delay in lotus. I can hit it, then gotta wait a moment for it to go, not at all like crit charge

Thogard · May 2018

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Cloak is set up to make attacks casted before it is casted miss, So if somebody throws a Poison injection or a snipe and I cloak after they are cast they will miss.

You cast dawnbreaker a hair before he casts cloak giving you the MISS, sense technically he cloaked out of your sight after dawnbreaker was casted, however dawnbreaker being AOE doesn't give a F and connects anyway, as we can see it did in fact stun unless that was procced by something else I can't see from my phone screen. The detect pot while having nothing to do with the miss really just adds to the confusion of the situation cause while you CAN see him the game does not stop him from using cloak. Your dawnbreaker WILL hit no matter what in that scenario because of the AOE, the cloak miss only can stop single target abilitys incoming if cloak is used after the ability is casted and before it hits, but it cannot proc miss vs AOE damage if set up as intended. If it could then Nightblades would be able to run through AOE at will as long as they spammed cloak, which I can tell you from personal experience AOE does pull you out of cloak.

Seems like it tripped up the UI though. Something that should be tested is if You pop a detect pot and a NB spams cloak can he still get a miss from incoming snipes, or will they land and simply say miss. If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it. Though it is much more likely that the UI system in this case dysnched or is not properly up to date with visibility during cloak, as its not something they probably thought about.

Every single target ability that has a travel time can be force missed by the NB casting cloak. The most frustrating ability in this lineup is the gap closers. Those are not HP desync and outgoing dmg desyncs - those are straight up misses. This is especially fristrating because when a detect pot is used, speed is sacrificed because there is no detect / speed pot, so if the NB simply runs away at normal speed while force missing the projectiles and gap closers then there is literally nothing the attacker can do. But that’s beside the point - the goal of this thread is to figure out what happened in that video.

In truth, gap closers (charges) still get you to the nightblade and hence resolve their primary function. The "I R teh grate animashun cancelar" (read as macros) types tend to hit you regardless though... They do it right through cloak and right through dodge roll.

Whereas ambush and lotus fan just flat out fail and cost you stamina/magicka.

No. Gap closer but no movement speed means that as soon as I arrive at the target, if they are moving forwards and have their own speed pot up (which every competent NB will) then they will already be out of melee range and can just cloak cancel anything I’d use from range.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again... cloak will not be balanced until 1. Forcing misses isn’t possible against people with detect pots up and 2. A speed / detect potion combination is available:

Xvorg · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

I was streaming last night and had one of those extremely rare moments recorded where I am 100% positive that the DBoS didn't glitch out... i know because I also hit a guard. Doesn't appear to be a health desync either... you can see him healing up slightly right before the DBoS, and the DBOS causes another "miss" to show, on top of the two DOTS that were on him (for three misses total). Would love to see someone come up with an explanation for what happened...

Maybe if i knew how to use some of those counters for cloak am I right? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjJ3SZpiMC4

It also happens to me on DK for leap, but leap bugs out pretty frequently so the footage isn't nearly as conclusive. This is the best footage i have.

Isn't that Blur?

Maybe ZoS didn't check that skill when they reworked the dodgeable/undodgeable skill list

Checkmath · May 2018

in my opinion, the misses all come from dots on him. they naturally miss by the fact that he is cloaking. then the miss together with the stun is delayed and therefore belongs to the dawnbreaker. still i think it is just a wrong information showing and the dawnbreaker actually hit. the stun is shown and the damage is dealt without showing on his health bar. thats why the beatles kill him with those 4.6k damage despite him being on around 12k health. the executer didnt hit in my opinion. the skill was casted slightly before the beatles came, therefore the animation started, but the beatles killed him right before hitting with the executioner.
in my opinion the damage is dealt properly, but was defined as a miss incorrectly.

Thogard · May 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

I was streaming last night and had one of those extremely rare moments recorded where I am 100% positive that the DBoS didn't glitch out... i know because I also hit a guard. Doesn't appear to be a health desync either... you can see him healing up slightly right before the DBoS, and the DBOS causes another "miss" to show, on top of the two DOTS that were on him (for three misses total). Would love to see someone come up with an explanation for what happened...

Maybe if i knew how to use some of those counters for cloak am I right? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjJ3SZpiMC4

It also happens to me on DK for leap, but leap bugs out pretty frequently so the footage isn't nearly as conclusive. This is the best footage i have.

Isn't that Blur?

Maybe ZoS didn't check that skill when they reworked the dodgeable/undodgeable skill list

Blue would make it say “Dodge”

Only cloak and blessed meridia will make it say “Missed” and we can conclusively rule out blessed meridia due to the fact that the guard took damage.

Thogard · May 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

in my opinion, the misses all come from dots on him. they naturally miss by the fact that he is cloaking. then the miss together with the stun is delayed and therefore belongs to the dawnbreaker. still i think it is just a wrong information showing and the dawnbreaker actually hit. the stun is shown and the damage is dealt without showing on his health bar. thats why the beatles kill him with those 4.6k damage despite him being on around 12k health. the executer didnt hit in my opinion. the skill was casted slightly before the beatles came, therefore the animation started, but the beatles killed him right before hitting with the executioner.
in my opinion the damage is dealt properly, but was defined as a miss incorrectly.

That’s definitely possible. But what if I hadn’t killed him? This NB was just an average snipe spammer that didn’t use speed pots, but what if it was a good player?

Here’s the problem... regardless of whether or not the DBoS did damage or not, because the NB uses cloak and simultaneously created both a health desync and a UI error that makes me unable to see how much damage I’m doing... how in the hell do I fight that?

How do I fight a class where I don’t see how hard my biggest dmg attack hits them for or who I can’t see what their health level is?

Even if the DBoS actually did hit, if NBs are able to reliably force health desyncs and damage log desyncs, isn’t that even stronger than forcing an attack to miss?

The only reason we’re able to even suspect that the DBoS actuallly did hit is because I immediately killed this NB within one second. The reverse slice was muscle memory. But what if he had hit rally and gotten a guaranteed Crit heal to full? I’d never know what db hit for.

This is a huge problem.

Xvorg · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

I was streaming last night and had one of those extremely rare moments recorded where I am 100% positive that the DBoS didn't glitch out... i know because I also hit a guard. Doesn't appear to be a health desync either... you can see him healing up slightly right before the DBoS, and the DBOS causes another "miss" to show, on top of the two DOTS that were on him (for three misses total). Would love to see someone come up with an explanation for what happened...

Maybe if i knew how to use some of those counters for cloak am I right? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjJ3SZpiMC4

It also happens to me on DK for leap, but leap bugs out pretty frequently so the footage isn't nearly as conclusive. This is the best footage i have.

Isn't that Blur?

Maybe ZoS didn't check that skill when they reworked the dodgeable/undodgeable skill list

Blue would make it say “Dodge”

Only cloak and blessed meridia will make it say “Missed” and we can conclusively rule out blessed meridia due to the fact that the guard took damage.

What about Glorious Defender? It seems you were hit before using DBoS, rthough I don't see any change in your health bar. Neither I've seen a GD proc (it should say dodge imho,. but you never know)

Thogard · May 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

I was streaming last night and had one of those extremely rare moments recorded where I am 100% positive that the DBoS didn't glitch out... i know because I also hit a guard. Doesn't appear to be a health desync either... you can see him healing up slightly right before the DBoS, and the DBOS causes another "miss" to show, on top of the two DOTS that were on him (for three misses total). Would love to see someone come up with an explanation for what happened...

Maybe if i knew how to use some of those counters for cloak am I right? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjJ3SZpiMC4

It also happens to me on DK for leap, but leap bugs out pretty frequently so the footage isn't nearly as conclusive. This is the best footage i have.

Isn't that Blur?

Maybe ZoS didn't check that skill when they reworked the dodgeable/undodgeable skill list

Blue would make it say “Dodge”

Only cloak and blessed meridia will make it say “Missed” and we can conclusively rule out blessed meridia due to the fact that the guard took damage.

What about Glorious Defender? It seems you were hit before using DBoS, rthough I don't see any change in your health bar. Neither I've seen a GD proc (it should say dodge imho,. but you never know)

Shimmering shield OP, needs its own thread lol

If I’m in Vivec on an EP toon and solo and flipping Roebuck farm (resource between AD and DC), the odds of me getting sniped or incapped is about 100%, so I try to keep shim shield up 100% of the time. The only real question is whether or not it’ll be a DC or AD nightblade that goes for me lol.

I spend most of my time at Roe when I’m on EP because it’s as far away as possible from the EP zerg, which loves to ruin as many of my fights as possible.

rfennell_ESO · May 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Cloak is set up to make attacks casted before it is casted miss, So if somebody throws a Poison injection or a snipe and I cloak after they are cast they will miss.

You cast dawnbreaker a hair before he casts cloak giving you the MISS, sense technically he cloaked out of your sight after dawnbreaker was casted, however dawnbreaker being AOE doesn't give a F and connects anyway, as we can see it did in fact stun unless that was procced by something else I can't see from my phone screen. The detect pot while having nothing to do with the miss really just adds to the confusion of the situation cause while you CAN see him the game does not stop him from using cloak. Your dawnbreaker WILL hit no matter what in that scenario because of the AOE, the cloak miss only can stop single target abilitys incoming if cloak is used after the ability is casted and before it hits, but it cannot proc miss vs AOE damage if set up as intended. If it could then Nightblades would be able to run through AOE at will as long as they spammed cloak, which I can tell you from personal experience AOE does pull you out of cloak.

Seems like it tripped up the UI though. Something that should be tested is if You pop a detect pot and a NB spams cloak can he still get a miss from incoming snipes, or will they land and simply say miss. If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it. Though it is much more likely that the UI system in this case dysnched or is not properly up to date with visibility during cloak, as its not something they probably thought about.

Every single target ability that has a travel time can be force missed by the NB casting cloak. The most frustrating ability in this lineup is the gap closers. Those are not HP desync and outgoing dmg desyncs - those are straight up misses. This is especially fristrating because when a detect pot is used, speed is sacrificed because there is no detect / speed pot, so if the NB simply runs away at normal speed while force missing the projectiles and gap closers then there is literally nothing the attacker can do. But that’s beside the point - the goal of this thread is to figure out what happened in that video.

In truth, gap closers (charges) still get you to the nightblade and hence resolve their primary function. The "I R teh grate animashun cancelar" (read as macros) types tend to hit you regardless though... They do it right through cloak and right through dodge roll.

Whereas ambush and lotus fan just flat out fail and cost you stamina/magicka.

I've noticed a delay in lotus. I can hit it, then gotta wait a moment for it to go, not at all like crit charge

I'm not all that well versed in lotus fan.

I am in ambush and the constant "reasons" it just sucks stamina and does nothing, haha.

Minalan · May 2018

I don’t understand why it said ‘miss’ when it didn’t.

I mean, the server reported that back to the client right? It missed. But it clearly shouldn’t have.

Thogard · May 2018

OK so I got another one on film. This one lasted long enough that i can CONFIRM it wasn't a health desync, b/c i popped him with a dizzy 2s later and his health went down a bit b/c of it.

Just like the first one, the DBOS's stun hit, but the damage missed. It wasn't a health desync... it was just deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

montiferus · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

OK so I got another one on film. This one lasted long enough that i can CONFIRM it wasn't a health desync, b/c i popped him with a dizzy 2s later and his health went down a bit b/c of it.

Just like the first one, the DBOS's stun hit, but the damage missed. It wasn't a health desync... it was just deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

I don’t have a good explanation of what is happening but I do have a good poem that encapsulates my feeling on DB in general...

Dawnbreaker o Dawnbreaker how you vex me so..
I call forth your presence only to wonder where did you go..
With my enemy clearly in sight
I call forth your power to righteously smite
As I begin to celebrate my victory I quickly realize
Curse the gods you did not materialize!
FU ZOS

The end...

Koolio · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

OK so I got another one on film. This one lasted long enough that i can CONFIRM it wasn't a health desync, b/c i popped him with a dizzy 2s later and his health went down a bit b/c of it.

Just like the first one, the DBOS's stun hit, but the damage missed. It wasn't a health desync... it was just deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

Remember they they broke Dawnbreaker (made dodgeable in Morrowind) and didn’t put it in the patch notes. Then we got them to change it back.

They probably messed with the coding of it then.

I also used to use Maelstrom DW Axes in pvp and Cruel Flurry enchant would buff it including the direct damage for some reason . Which means it’s also a singles target. Or was at least coded as such back then. Haven’t used them in a long time it might still.

Minalan · May 2018

Yeah that’s broken. Did you post this to bug reports?

Thogard · May 2018

So Gilliam and I just spent about two hours testing out various things. We discovered quite a lot. Video to follow tomorrow

Valen_Byte · May 2018

montiferus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

OK so I got another one on film. This one lasted long enough that i can CONFIRM it wasn't a health desync, b/c i popped him with a dizzy 2s later and his health went down a bit b/c of it.

Just like the first one, the DBOS's stun hit, but the damage missed. It wasn't a health desync... it was just deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

I don’t have a good explanation of what is happening but I do have a good poem that encapsulates my feeling on DB in general...

Dawnbreaker o Dawnbreaker how you vex me so..
I call forth your presence only to wonder where did you go..
With my enemy clearly in sight
I call forth your power to righteously smite
As I begin to celebrate my victory I quickly realize
Curse the gods you did not materialize!
FU ZOS

The end...

That is just beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

WaltherCarraway · May 2018

CLOAKING IS FINE, CLOAKING IS FINE, L2P, GET ADAPTED !!! /s

Thogard · May 2018

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

CLOAKING IS FINE, CLOAKING IS FINE, L2P, GET ADAPTED !!! /s

why not shieldbreaker + sload + zaan + master DW?

rfennell_ESO · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

OK so I got another one on film. This one lasted long enough that i can CONFIRM it wasn't a health desync, b/c i popped him with a dizzy 2s later and his health went down a bit b/c of it.

Just like the first one, the DBOS's stun hit, but the damage missed. It wasn't a health desync... it was just deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

Just to avoid conflation you might want to note that sometimes DBOS just misses people that don't cloak (on classes that can't).

I've always considered it a positional desync (ie they weren't were you see them).

The Dawnbreaker "misses" are certainly not a cloak specific thing.

Dredlord · May 2018

Its just lag, move on bro...

Just like cheating is impossible in eso according to you so is a bug where the server just "deletes" damage.

Thogard · May 2018

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

OK so I got another one on film. This one lasted long enough that i can CONFIRM it wasn't a health desync, b/c i popped him with a dizzy 2s later and his health went down a bit b/c of it.

Just like the first one, the DBOS's stun hit, but the damage missed. It wasn't a health desync... it was just deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

Just to avoid conflation you might want to note that sometimes DBOS just misses people that don't cloak (on classes that can't).

I've always considered it a positional desync (ie they weren't were you see them).

The Dawnbreaker "misses" are certainly not a cloak specific thing.

There are actually three distinct bugs that I can replicate 100% of the time when it comes to dawnbreaker missing / disappearing / getting cloaked. I promise I’ll upload the breakdown soon.

rfennell_ESO · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

OK so I got another one on film. This one lasted long enough that i can CONFIRM it wasn't a health desync, b/c i popped him with a dizzy 2s later and his health went down a bit b/c of it.

Just like the first one, the DBOS's stun hit, but the damage missed. It wasn't a health desync... it was just deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

Just to avoid conflation you might want to note that sometimes DBOS just misses people that don't cloak (on classes that can't).

I've always considered it a positional desync (ie they weren't were you see them).

The Dawnbreaker "misses" are certainly not a cloak specific thing.

There are actually three distinct bugs that I can replicate 100% of the time when it comes to dawnbreaker missing / disappearing / getting cloaked. I promise I’ll upload the breakdown soon.

Cool deal, it's been an issue for a while now.

Most of the time it has to do with speed of target from what I've seen.