[VID] Cloak Causing DBoS to Miss

Thogard

I was streaming last night and had one of those extremely rare moments recorded where I am 100% positive that the DBoS didn't glitch out... i know because I also hit a guard. Doesn't appear to be a health desync either... you can see him healing up slightly right before the DBoS, and the DBOS causes another "miss" to show, on top of the two DOTS that were on him (for three misses total). Would love to see someone come up with an explanation for what happened...

Maybe if i knew how to use some of those counters for cloak am I right? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjJ3SZpiMC4


It also happens to me on DK for leap, but leap bugs out pretty frequently so the footage isn't nearly as conclusive. This is the best footage i have.

EDIT:

Here is a second video of the same thing happening with a different player. I hit this player immediately afterwards, proving that it is NOT a health desync:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4PxqiWUBs

Waffennacht

Isn't "miss" from blessed meridia?

Edit: in video you say blessed would've caused you to miss the guard. While I do agree, I just can't think of anything else that causes "miss".... Wait a sec... There's a set I think.... Gotta look it up

Edit edit: was thinking of glorious defender.... Now that I've looked it up, I don't think that's it lol

ak_pvp

Had it happen to leap in BGs too.

Brutusmax1mus

Well, he had 50% hp roughly when you got the dbos, then only did 4.6 dmg to him to kill him. Looks like a bug on your display and the damage actually did occur..

DDuke

Target also goes down from 12,6k health to 0 despite only taking 4636 from the shalks, so where did the remaining 8k damage come from?

Here's my theory: we're looking at a health desync.

The game shows you (and probably the other player as well) that those attacks missed and that is reflected on the health pools, but in reality this is not the case and he actually took damage from them.

rfennell_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

I was streaming last night and had one of those extremely rare moments recorded where I am 100% positive that the DBoS didn't glitch out... i know because I also hit a guard. Doesn't appear to be a health desync either... you can see him healing up slightly right before the DBoS, and the DBOS causes another "miss" to show, on top of the two DOTS that were on him (for three misses total). Would love to see someone come up with an explanation for what happened...

Maybe if i knew how to use some of those counters for cloak am I right? lol.

Well, you can see the "stun" part of it hit him and his health went from 13k to dead from 4636 damage (sub assault). So it was likely a health desync that didn't display your damage.

He still died... even though the ui showed "miss".

Jaxaxo

Bug, with proper timing u can cloak the direct dmg of DB. U dont get dmg from it, so no health desync.

Thogard

The reverse slice killing blow didn’t have its damage numbers pop up, but that’s what kills him. You all know how buggy the damage reporting is on that when it isn’t block cancelled...

A health desync explanation is something I considered plausible. But I ruled it out because even if that is the case, what causes the third miss?

In other words, a health desync wouldn’t cause the DBoS to show “miss”. That’s not how health desyncs work. It’s the reverse slice that isn’t getting its dmg numbers shown, but which we know went through because we see the animation.

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

The reverse slice killing blow didn’t have its damage numbers pop up, but that’s what kills him. You all know how buggy the damage reporting is on that when it isn’t block cancelled...

A health desync explanation is something I considered plausible. But I ruled it out because even if that is the case, what causes the third miss?

In other words, a health desync wouldn’t cause the DBoS to show “miss”. That’s not how health desyncs work. It’s the reverse slice that isn’t getting its dmg numbers shown, but which we know went through because we see the animation.

There's no way Reverse Slice was the killing blow, not without something else desyncing since the target was above 50% health at 12,6k health.

After shalks, he'd be at 8k & around 40% health, which is not execute range when your shalks are doing 4,6k damage.

There's definitely something desyncing & I don't see what else it could be than the DBOS.

Thogard

DDuke wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The reverse slice killing blow didn’t have its damage numbers pop up, but that’s what kills him. You all know how buggy the damage reporting is on that when it isn’t block cancelled...

A health desync explanation is something I considered plausible. But I ruled it out because even if that is the case, what causes the third miss?

In other words, a health desync wouldn’t cause the DBoS to show “miss”. That’s not how health desyncs work. It’s the reverse slice that isn’t getting its dmg numbers shown, but which we know went through because we see the animation.

There's no way Reverse Slice was the killing blow, not without something else desyncing since the target was above 50% health at 12,6k health. That'd have to be the biggest rev slice I've ever seen...

You misunderstand. My hypothesis is that the 4.6k was beetles. Then reverse slice hit on top of that, but the reverse slice numbers weren’t shown.

Reverse slice damage hits at the end of the animation unless it’s block cancelled. There’s no way that 4.6k was the reverse slice because the dmg happened too soon (it happened when beetles popped, and it matches the 4.8k that I hit him with beetles for earlier in the fight). The reverse slice finished him off after the beetles but the dmg numbers weren’t reported by the UI because he was dead.

You guys know that reverse slice is weird like that. The person will be “dead” at the beginning of the animation but still upright and showing as alive, just unable to use skills. Then the reverse slice animation ends and they’re fully dead. If you haven’t caused it I’m sure you’ve been on the receiving end. The dmg comes very late in the animation unless something forces it to happen faster, which is why I normally block cancel the reverse slice animation. Just didn’t do it this time.

NegativeVibes

I have had my DBs miss because of cloak as well. I have video proof if anyone wants to see it.

BohnT

I don't know what is happening in that Video.
It looks like he just gets desynced and still takes the hit.

However from my experience there is an issue with cloak completely negating DB damage.
I had it happen daily that i hit NBs with a DBoS on my stamplar, my FTC showed me the damage, the game showed "miss" and the NB didn't lose any health and no desync was involved.

When playing with my NBs i also noticed that i don't take any damage from time to time even when stunned.
I use cloak - - - ->get hit by DBoS and stunned----> FTC shows x damage taken, game shows "dodged"
Fight continues and i don't take any further damage

Brutusmax1mus

Doesn't dbos tic immediately? That's the 3rd miss.

Brutusmax1mus

Shalks clearly came after the miss occurred, but could have been the 4.6k dmg and the reverse slash didn't do any dmg but still occured for animation purposes.

Thogard

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Doesn't dbos tic immediately? That's the 3rd miss.

That would be the fourth miss... But if the DBoS misses i dont think the dots would hit either... or, put another way, if we assume that the DBos DIDN'T miss, we'd have to assume that he isn't in cloak anymore and therefore wouldn't be able to re-enter cloak to force the DBoS dot to miss that quickly. We're talking about an instantaneous break free and then vanish... not possible.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Shalks clearly came after the miss occurred, but could have been the 4.6k dmg and the reverse slash didn't do any dmg but still occured for animation purposes.

i considered that as well... but if you look closely, you can see the guard actually takes about 8.4k worth of damage, and that it's a crit. I believe that 8.4k is the splash damage from the reverse slice, which critted.

It could be the dot dmg from DBOS as well, but it happens about .7s after he gets hit by the DBoS. It could also be the shalks, but the guard really doesn't look like he's in range.

I'm reading this as the reverse slice critting. A reverse slice on someone with 7.8k HP out of a total of 20.8k hp (meaning 37.5% health) and hitting a crit seems plausible.

I'm open to alternatives though.

Solariken

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Well, he had 50% hp roughly when you got the dbos, then only did 4.6 dmg to him to kill him. Looks like a bug on your display and the damage actually did occur..

Yeah this is what I'm thinking - could have been your weapon enchant that missed because it's single target, while the DBoS hit full smack.

Thogard

I gues the issue i'm having is that if it's an HP desync, sure, i'll buy that... it happens.

But an HP desync and a UI desync mislabeling the damage, too?

Nah. That's just too much. At that point, we're assuming such a fundamental breakdown in every source of measurement that data is meaningless.. in which case cloak is JUST as broken.

It might as well not even show the opponent. If i can't see their HP and i can't see how much damage i'm doing... i mean really... is that target really even there? do i really know that they're actually deceased? What is real? Is this all just a dream?

gotta trust at least some of the data. can't assume all of it is wrong.

Thogard

Solariken wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Well, he had 50% hp roughly when you got the dbos, then only did 4.6 dmg to him to kill him. Looks like a bug on your display and the damage actually did occur..

Yeah this is what I'm thinking - could have been your weapon enchant that missed because it's single target, while the DBoS hit full smack.

2h bar is poison which had already procced about 4s earlier (the first two misses) and therefore could not have procced again. we can conclusively rule out a weapon proc as the source of the third miss.

Also, it's a 2h sword, not an axe, so bleeds are out as well.

Can also rule out the "poisoned" status effect - if it had procced we would've seen it ticking earlier.

UppGRAYxDD

My explanation: your DBOS got ZOSD on your ui

rfennell_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Well, he had 50% hp roughly when you got the dbos, then only did 4.6 dmg to him to kill him. Looks like a bug on your display and the damage actually did occur..

Yeah this is what I'm thinking - could have been your weapon enchant that missed because it's single target, while the DBoS hit full smack.

2h bar is poison which had already procced about 4s earlier (the first two misses) and therefore could not have procced again. we can conclusively rule out a weapon proc as the source of the third miss.

Also, it's a 2h sword, not an axe, so bleeds are out as well.

Can also rule out the "poisoned" status effect - if it had procced we would've seen it ticking earlier.

The combat log, in general, has never been reliable and the ui's representation of it is just as suspect.

We see the "stun" hit him though... on a lot of skills and ultimates there are a number of different things being applied at once (not really at once btw). There is the dawnbreaker direct damage, any weapon enchant procs (not even sure, at this point, what applies a weapon enchant lol), the stun from dawnbreaker, and if it was animation cancelled a lot of times the intial "tick" of dawnbreaker.

Brutusmax1mus

I think the dbos hit but wasn't displayed, just like when you meteor them and they cloak. It still hits, just shows no numbers to you. Happens all the time. That would make the 3rd miss the dot actually.

Brutusmax1mus

You were still with detect pot up, he visibly cloaks directly before your dbos. It says stun, meaning the initial damage component connected. You can't seethe damage bc he is technically in cloak even though you are able to see him with pots.

Either wayb it's goofy

ShadowMonarch

Cloak is set up to make attacks casted before it is casted miss, So if somebody throws a Poison injection or a snipe and I cloak after they are cast they will miss.

You cast dawnbreaker a hair before he casts cloak giving you the MISS, sense technically he cloaked out of your sight after dawnbreaker was casted, however dawnbreaker being AOE doesn't give a F and connects anyway, as we can see it did in fact stun unless that was procced by something else I can't see from my phone screen. The detect pot while having nothing to do with the miss really just adds to the confusion of the situation cause while you CAN see him the game does not stop him from using cloak. Your dawnbreaker WILL hit no matter what in that scenario because of the AOE, the cloak miss only can stop single target abilitys incoming if cloak is used after the ability is casted and before it hits, but it cannot proc miss vs AOE damage if set up as intended. If it could then Nightblades would be able to run through AOE at will as long as they spammed cloak, which I can tell you from personal experience AOE does pull you out of cloak.

Seems like it tripped up the UI though. Something that should be tested is if You pop a detect pot and a NB spams cloak can he still get a miss from incoming snipes, or will they land and simply say miss. If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it. Though it is much more likely that the UI system in this case dysnched or is not properly up to date with visibility during cloak, as its not something they probably thought about.

montjie

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it.

This is the case and as far as I know it is intentional or an oversight they just never bothered to look in to for multiple years.
This is one of the reasons why people argue detect pots arent a very useful counter to cloakspammers because the spammers just force miss (by spamming cloak) untill the (short) detect effect of the pot runs out and youre stuck on cooldown having wasted a pot.

ShadowMonarch

montjie wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it.

This is the case and as far as I know it is intentional or an oversight they just never bothered to look in to for multiple years.
This is one of the reasons why people argue detect pots arent a very useful counter to cloakspammers because the spammers just force miss (by spamming cloak) untill the (short) detect effect of the pot runs out and youre stuck on cooldown having wasted a pot.

It doesn't work with Mark Target as far as I know cause I have marked a lot of badblades and watched them spam cloak and I have still killed them so would really have to test it out in game with vid proof tbh.

If this IS the case then make a 2h/resto NB with enough magika to sustain cloak permanently in combat and you would be invincible to all but aoe.

Thogard

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Cloak is set up to make attacks casted before it is casted miss, So if somebody throws a Poison injection or a snipe and I cloak after they are cast they will miss.

You cast dawnbreaker a hair before he casts cloak giving you the MISS, sense technically he cloaked out of your sight after dawnbreaker was casted, however dawnbreaker being AOE doesn't give a F and connects anyway, as we can see it did in fact stun unless that was procced by something else I can't see from my phone screen. The detect pot while having nothing to do with the miss really just adds to the confusion of the situation cause while you CAN see him the game does not stop him from using cloak. Your dawnbreaker WILL hit no matter what in that scenario because of the AOE, the cloak miss only can stop single target abilitys incoming if cloak is used after the ability is casted and before it hits, but it cannot proc miss vs AOE damage if set up as intended. If it could then Nightblades would be able to run through AOE at will as long as they spammed cloak, which I can tell you from personal experience AOE does pull you out of cloak.

Seems like it tripped up the UI though. Something that should be tested is if You pop a detect pot and a NB spams cloak can he still get a miss from incoming snipes, or will they land and simply say miss. If it is in fact the case that they can still get a miss from spamming cloak while visible through detect pot then im sure its not intentional but It might be a more complicated fix so I wouldn't expect zos to actually go out of their way to fix it. Though it is much more likely that the UI system in this case dysnched or is not properly up to date with visibility during cloak, as its not something they probably thought about.

Every single target ability that has a travel time can be force missed by the NB casting cloak. The most frustrating ability in this lineup is the gap closers. Those are not HP desync and outgoing dmg desyncs - those are straight up misses. This is especially fristrating because when a detect pot is used, speed is sacrificed because there is no detect / speed pot, so if the NB simply runs away at normal speed while force missing the projectiles and gap closers then there is literally nothing the attacker can do. But that’s beside the point - the goal of this thread is to figure out what happened in that video.

HP desyncs happen. It’s extremely rare but it happens. I’ve seen damage numbers vanish and I’ve seen lag make people die before the animations finish.

What I’ve never seen happen is for a UI or combat log to show an attack as a “miss” when it actually hit.

It’s also worth mentioning that up until last patch (or maybe the one before?) dawnbreaker was dodgeable. You could roll dodge it and take no damage... ZoS then changed the coding on it. This was the same patch where they made steel tornado undodgeable.. and I have seen similar issues with steel tornado where an NB uses cloak while I am mid-animation and the steel tornado just fizzles our and does no damage. No damage that I can see anyway...

Koensol

I think it is cloak that is bugged. Up until some time ago I could reliably nuke cloaking NBs with DB. But since, I think last patch, you can reliably evade DB by cloaking. So far my experience has been pretty consistent with this.

Kadoin

I don't think its cloak, I think it has to do with dodge itself.

Honestly, I think dawnbreaker and other skills are not really "undogeable" like they claim. I've roll dodged DBoS and Meteor reliably without intending to do so, in fact, the game even played the animation showing that I dodged it. Every time I see it, I'm like "ah, well they got me...Wait, WHAT!?" This is even after the last patch. Perhaps the devs need to take a look at the code they are using for either the undodgeable skills and/or dodge itself...

Thogard

Kadoin wrote: »

I don't think its cloak, I think it has to do with dodge itself.

Honestly, I think dawnbreaker and other skills are not really "undogeable" like they claim. I've roll dodged DBoS and Meteor reliably without intending to do so, in fact, the game even played the animation showing that I dodged it. Every time I see it, I'm like "ah, well they got me...Wait, WHAT!?" This is even after the last patch. Perhaps the devs need to take a look at the code they are using for either the undodgeable skills and/or dodge itself...

“Dodge” is a different alert than “miss”

This was clearly a “miss”

Kadoin

Thogard wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

I don't think its cloak, I think it has to do with dodge itself.

Honestly, I think dawnbreaker and other skills are not really "undogeable" like they claim. I've roll dodged DBoS and Meteor reliably without intending to do so, in fact, the game even played the animation showing that I dodged it. Every time I see it, I'm like "ah, well they got me...Wait, WHAT!?" This is even after the last patch. Perhaps the devs need to take a look at the code they are using for either the undodgeable skills and/or dodge itself...

“Dodge” is a different alert than “miss”

This was clearly a “miss”

Yeah, but I have no idea what the other person sees since it does not say "dodge" for me, just shows the animation and the damage is negated (and yes, my damage text is on and it still says nothing). So what does my enemy see in text? In all these instances other skills still did their damage though, like crushing shock or other AoEs. But not Leap, Meteor and Dawnbreaker.

Also from what I see, he was still within his dodge window (window after dodge). 100% certain of that.

React

Cba to read the comments, but when you dawnbreaker a nightblade who has just cloaked, you'll cc them, pull them from cloak, and deal the initial dawnbreaker damage. However, their health bar WILL NOT MOVE ON YOUR SCREEN OR THEIRS. It straight up 100% of the time causes a health desync.