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ZOS- please stop the power creep- you've made your own content redundant.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Edited by idk on May 25, 2018 4:36PM0 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭For those clamoring for a non-optional increase in overland difficulty or demanding ZOS start releasing content solely for them because "the noobies have enough!", I remind you that the entire aim of One Tamriel and points after is enabling anyone of almost any skill level to experience any overland questing content at any point in almost any order. Morrowind's nostalgia strike your fancy? Dive right in. Prefer the high fantasy look of Summerset? Great! Rather do the alliance story lines? Awesome! Using boats or other transportation, you can reach any zone and, thanks to what looks like new lead-in quests, do those in any order.
And that's awesome. To be honest, I find it a bit ridiculous to draw people in with all the shiny promotional material and then say "No, new player! This is my sandbox! Go away!" You do realize that, of the four content releases we have this year, two of them are dungeon dlc, right? And that, in terms of difficulty, they will likely be/are north of WGT and ICP? Y'know, "Do not do normal under 160CP or vet under 300"? And that, though CR is a "mini-trial", it still stresses group cooperation and mechanics above all. The "upper portion" is getting new content, which, all told, probably takes as long to master as the overland does to complete. Demanding more, saying "They have enough! No more for them!" just seems like greed and pettiness.
Regarding power creep, while, yes, old content is easier, in part thanks to CP, that's not a horrible thing. Speaking solely for myself, I want to feel like my character is getting stronger, like older content is getting easier and what was once impossible now might be achievable. CP does that, to a small degree, without completely invalidating months of work like a gear treadmill/ever-increasing level cap does. As to things getting hellacious around CP2000, consider that we're only going up 120 points a year, so hitting that point is over ten years out. Beyond that, because of the way CP is set up with break points/the last 25 points in a star giving fractions of percentage points in terms of stat increase and some being for magicka and some for stamina, the ceiling of what's possible with CP is far lower than some think. Does it add power? Yes. Does it make some things easier? Yes, to a degree. Will it alone ever allow a casual player to beat vMoL with light attacks? Not even at CP2000.
I understand overland's easy, but expecting it to be tailored to you, or me, or Andy S is like expecting public high school to be catered entirely to a rocket scientist. I get it, Andy S can complete vMA in 30 minutes blindfolded perfectly. But, astoundingly enough, the vast majority of players can't even complete it. As someone who has finished it and who was dancing near 28k dps last I checked, I recognize I'm not in the majority any more and overland content isn't catered to me.
Could/should the newer players learn mechanics for dungeons and how to do dps? Certainly. But cranking the difficulty past 11/ to whatever Andy S finds challenging (because Andy S can beat vMA in 30 minutes) in order to force it on them or provide the higher end a challenge is not going to and should not happen. Not from a gameplay perspective or from a business one.
Maybe have a difficulty slider or vet overland. Maybe nudge newer players toward smarter build choices or balance things so there aren't as many "trap" weapon choices that newer/less skilled players fall into. Maybe create a mechanics tutorial to explain things, or explain some boss mechanics better in game (there are still some bosses in Dragon Bones where I have no idea what's going on.) Maybe replace CP with some other (non-gear-treadmill) progression, or create better defined soft caps. Or leave us where we are. I don't know. What I do know is that creating new overland zones solely for vet players, or non-optionally dramatically increasing the difficulty of existing ones, is not the way to go. If content is far too difficult or unrewarding, "Yay, I did it!" becomes "Never. Again." and forcing someone to wait to be rescued by another player in order to complete a quest (even in an MMO) just isn't fun.
Beyond that, people probably aren't going to buy content they can't reasonably expect to complete on some level. So if the majority can't complete it, and aren't buying it, ZOS isn't getting as much money and it's just not worth it.
*Note: I don't mean any disrespect to or intend to call out Andy S. I'm sure he's a great guy and highly skilled. I just find the thought that balance decisions should be made based on what he (or any of the very ultra super high end players) can do or finds challenging, or that his spending at least a year practicing vMA and memorizing everything about it leading to him finishing it in 30 minutes means CP is bad and the power creep is atrocious, to be...more than a little ridiculous.
EDIT: Please excuse any spelling/grammar errors. The phone keypad plots against me sometimes.Edited by BrightOblivion on May 25, 2018 4:42PM2 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The point is that content gets easier because of the power creep. We had a cap of 600, 630, 660, 690, 720 and now 750 etc... and it takes about the same amount of time to reach max CP due to the XP curve adjustment.
It is a lot harder to reach CP cap if you play two hours a night and don't grind every single night tough. Besides CP isn't really where the beginner area is. 1 - 50 is the general area of lower level and as far as I know <I COULD BE WRONG> they reduce the amount of CP grind, not level grind. So a brand new player still has the same grind 1-50 as anyone else.
Remember too, not everyone reads "How to powerlevel/grind/pay skyreach" guides as well so we can't count that. You literally have to count "How long does it take a guy who speccs not 100% build perfect + A little more tanky + may have a disability to hinder himself on quest content" to level. What is their TTK? How hard is too hard for story progression? If that guy can't even get past level 20 there is an issue and you just lose people. I quit a game once because an expansion <Runes of Magic> made my tank's TTK literally double so killing 12 bears was...unbearable.
Vet end gamers won't care about overland content once they did it once. They never have in *any* game I have played. From EQ -> WoW -> This one and in between. The only times you can get them back is if you put $$$ items in there. Which basically means each update would have to have better overland gear than the previous, which then just kills the previous zone etc. Sure if a build calls for FOTM status <Mothers sorrow anyone?> they might come back, but that's just a shot in the dark basically.
I would much rather just boost overland world bosses to be Normal craglorn trial level + up their quality of loot. World bosses are 100% optional, and do not disrupt questing. They can be placed in any zone and newbies wouldn't be interfered with. ZoS wants to keep the "play with anyone anywhere" kind of deal for overland and it is a good strat. CWC is wonderful example of it done right. Good reward <150% xp boost>, SP's, decent xp, and can be done at level 1 for a fresh alt.Edited by karekiz on May 25, 2018 4:42PM0 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
"Most people" don't do vet trials (or normal trials) because most people don't want to do trials the same way that most people didn't/don't want to raid says every MMO that has ever been. Is it based completely on difficulty? I figured it was more because most people don't want to have a scheduled commitment for a video game or want to voice chat with a room full of internet text friends. That's even assuming your background is more MMO and less Skyrim/ES series.
It's silly to suggest that people should complete content they're not interested in--a small fraction of the actual game--before they were allowed to have an opinion on the content they are interested in. There's a whole world out there that's getting bigger with every expansion. Assuming you even love vet trials and that's your 'difficulty fix', they make up a small portion of the content that is released.
edit: quote issuesEdited by Kolache on May 25, 2018 4:59PMSomething being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
"Most people" don't do vet trials (or normal trials) because most people don't want to do trials the same way that most people didn't/don't want to raid says every MMO that has ever been. Is it based completely on difficulty? I figured it was more because most people don't want to have a scheduled commitment for a video game or want to voice chat with a room full of internet text friends. That's even assuming your background is more MMO and less Skyrim/ES series.
It's silly to suggest that people should complete content they're not interested in--a small fraction of the actual game--before they were allowed to have an opinion on the content they are interested in. There's a whole world out there that's getting bigger with every expansion. Assuming you even love vet trials and that's your 'difficulty fix', they make up a small portion of the content that is released.
edit: quote issues
This is merely an excuse.
First, you ignored the dungeon part.
Second, a large number of MMO players do raid. What percentage I do no now and certainly you do not know or you would have cited such information.
Of those interested in challenging content, they do work on that challenging content and considering this is an MMO, not a single player game, and as such the more challenging content is expected to take advantage of that MMO aspect and be group content.0 -
gnarlyvandal✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging. You’ve completely missed the point. For the fact that you think someone has to be a complete noob to enjoy ordinary game content is very strange to me.
And what’s the problem with wanting bosses to not get 1 shot and also not want to participate in the hardest content in the game? You’ve made a severe logic fail my friend, the gap between those two points is huge.
You also seem to have limited experience in other MMO’s, I can’t think of another MMO where I kill a boss in 3 seconds. Please enlighten meEdited by gnarlyvandal on May 25, 2018 5:36PM3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.0 -
Zardayne✭✭✭✭✭I wonder how much of the easy overland gameplay can be attributed to CP or just overall game experience. I say this because yesterday I called a coworker of mine that plays ESO and began MMOs with Daoc. He's sitting around 680 CP. I told him about this and other posts about how easy overland was and I truly wanted his take on it. The reason is, is because even though he's a MMO vet he doesn't read the forums, didn't know who Alcast was until I showed 6-8 months ago, and generally bumbles around overland because he it truly scared of running regular dungeons. He's an older gamer (close to 60) and feels his reaction speed is a bit slower than the younger folks and he doesn't want to bring a team down with his gameplay. He also said playing off the lazy boy isnt helping either lol. Anyway after explaining the forum post I listened to his response. He told me hell yea overland was really a joke and it only became a little harder when he wasn't on his sorc (loss of shields scared him lol). He said that this game was in no way as hard as any MMO we'd ever played. I asked him how his new warden was going (around 30-40) and he said it was going good and pretty easy. I asked him if he had allocated his CP points on the new warden and he checked and he had totally forgot to use them leveling up. His game play experience had made the leveling of this new character so easy he didn't even think about adding CP. Couple that with CP which wold have made it even easier..WOW. So I feel experience trumps CP. If you're experienced you can reset those cp points all day and wear white con gear but anything short of using stamina abilities on your mag character, and tieing one hand behind your back will not bring the challenge in overland like those "golden age" MMOs.
2 -
gnarlyvandal✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
Just read my previous post rather than redundantly responding; quest bosses die in 3 seconds on a level 10 character with no champion points invested. That is a problem for most players in the game which is why these threads pop up every couple of days. Extending that 3 seconds to 30 seconds without increasing a quest boss’ power should be sufficient to solve the problem.
Read posts, then respond. Don’t be a ***0 -
Zardayne✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
First off your "And this is normal for MMORPGs" in my opinion is not entirely true. There have been many MMO's in the past that have successfully made quest bosses tough and not a total faceroll (Lotro, WoW, Warhammer, Everquest, Everquest 2 and I can go on and on). I've been MMOing since 97' in Ultima.
I'm also curious how you seem so certain "that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content". I al;ways see this slung around in these discussions to try to seal the deal that their viewpoint is right. This game has been out 4 years. A lot of us have done a ton of vet things in this game to keep it fresh. The folks who feel the game has gotten too easy, what are they supposed to do? Just keep repeating the same old tired vet content day after day (which is a very low portion of content) until the next DLC? What if they've done all but trials. Are they then supposed to [snip] a large group every single day after a hard day at work and only a couple hours to play because that's all the challenging content that's left for them? BS
[Edited to remove profanity]Edited by ZOS_KatP on May 26, 2018 1:02PM5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
Just read my previous post rather than redundantly responding; quest bosses die in 3 seconds on a level 10 character with no champion points invested. That is a problem for most players in the game which is why these threads pop up every couple of days. Extending that 3 seconds to 30 seconds without increasing a quest boss’ power should be sufficient to solve the problem.
Read posts, then respond. Don’t be a ***
Redundantly respond? That is an interesting and new way in these forums to belittle someone just because one may disagree with them. Good attempt but I am not so feeble minded.
I guarantee not everyone can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds. I have seen some struggle with a trash mob.
That is not being redundant. That is merely stating facts. For some that just might be an inconvenient fact.
Edited by idk on May 25, 2018 6:08PM1 -
AlCiao✭✭✭Just peeking in to say that I personally *like* being powerful. I'm a casual player, and I don't care for much challenge.1
-
Zardayne✭✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
This here I'll agree with you on and of course that's where the issue is. How would a company like ZOS know where that median is for the experienced and non experienced player so they could make adjustments? I don't know how they could get such data even if they cared.
The more I play ESO along with some of the newer MMOs I'm beginning to think they really don't care about the original MMO concept of creating worlds and expanding on that idea. I'm starting to feel they are more in it to get as many people in the door and to that cash shop as possible even if that means catering to the slowest antelope in all aspects of gameplay. I mean they are a business and I understand that. I just feel they are slowly pushing me out of a genre I've loved and supported for many, many years in the hunt for the almighty $Edited by Zardayne on May 25, 2018 6:27PM1 -
gnarlyvandal✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
Just read my previous post rather than redundantly responding; quest bosses die in 3 seconds on a level 10 character with no champion points invested. That is a problem for most players in the game which is why these threads pop up every couple of days. Extending that 3 seconds to 30 seconds without increasing a quest boss’ power should be sufficient to solve the problem.
Read posts, then respond. Don’t be a ***
Redundantly respond? That is an interesting and new way in these forums to belittle someone just because one may disagree with them. Good attempt but I am not so feeble minded.
I guarantee not everyone can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds. I have seen some struggle with a trash mob.
That is not being redundant. That is merely stating facts. For some that just might be an inconvenient fact.
Your whole post was basically centred on what I personally would consider ‘normal’, something I did in fact explain in my first comment that’s been quoted continuously in responses. Including this one. So yes, your comment was redundant as I had already explained my ‘normal’ in my very first post. I wasn’t belittling you.
You say you can guarantee that not everyone kills quest bosses in 3 seconds? I’d like to know how you can guarantee this? Cause my level 10 no CP character can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds by literally spamming any attack move.
I’m not sure how others cannot manage this? ‘Push button, push button, push button’ = oh look it’s dead.... = every quest boss fight
And yes, I have actually had more trouble on a group of trash mobs than any quest boss in game0 -
martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭BrightOblivion wrote: »I remind you that the entire aim of One Tamriel and points after is enabling anyone of almost any skill level to experience any overland questing content at any point in almost any order.
But actually it isn't because ESO in its current form is not meeting my expectations of what is playable in a video game. The overland content is so easy for me - I dont even have to try and I win - that the experience is sub-par.
To be honest these days I am a pretty poor pve player.
The experience in terms of my characters abilities and the time I have dedicated to building that character is poor.
It is as if there was no One Tamriel and my cap character is questing in a zone 10-20 levels lower.
Therefore One-Tamriel is not working as intended for me and a whole bunch of other customers.Edited by martinhpb16_ESO on May 25, 2018 6:34PMAt least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
This here I'll agree with you on and of course that's where the issue is. How would a company like ZOS know where that median is for the experienced and non experienced player so they could make adjustments? I don't know how they could get such data even if they cared.
The more I play ESO along with some of the newer MMOs I'm beginning to think they really don't care about the original MMO concept of creating worlds and expanding on that idea. I'm starting to feel they are more in it to get as many people in the door and to that cash shop as possible even if that means catering to the slowest antelope in all aspects of gameplay. I mean they are a business and I understand that. I just feel they are slowly pushing me out of a genre I've loved and supported for many, many years in the hunt for the almighty $
Zos did not attempt to make questing and overland normal. It is not in their best interest.
They did attempt to make overland at a difficulty level that would not scare off those new players. They added other content to accommodate those who want a challenge in an MMORPG environment.
Granted, they cannot please everyone and also some people seem to really want a single player game when they try an MMORPG.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
Just read my previous post rather than redundantly responding; quest bosses die in 3 seconds on a level 10 character with no champion points invested. That is a problem for most players in the game which is why these threads pop up every couple of days. Extending that 3 seconds to 30 seconds without increasing a quest boss’ power should be sufficient to solve the problem.
Read posts, then respond. Don’t be a ***
Redundantly respond? That is an interesting and new way in these forums to belittle someone just because one may disagree with them. Good attempt but I am not so feeble minded.
I guarantee not everyone can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds. I have seen some struggle with a trash mob.
That is not being redundant. That is merely stating facts. For some that just might be an inconvenient fact.
Your whole post was basically centred on what I personally would consider ‘normal’, something I did in fact explain in my first comment that’s been quoted continuously in responses. Including this one. So yes, your comment was redundant as I had already explained my ‘normal’ in my very first post. I wasn’t belittling you.
You say you can guarantee that not everyone kills quest bosses in 3 seconds? I’d like to know how you can guarantee this? Cause my level 10 no CP character can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds by literally spamming any attack move.
I’m not sure how others cannot manage this? ‘Push button, push button, push button’ = oh look it’s dead.... = every quest boss fight
And yes, I have actually had more trouble on a group of trash mobs than any quest boss in game
I chose not to remove any part of your statement but bolded what I found most important.
I find it interesting that somehow you think that noob struggling to kill a trash mob in 3 hits can actually kill the quest boss with 3x health in 3 hits?
I am not talking about a group. There are some zones with single mobs in them, well, probably all of them but some that do not have many actually grouped.0 -
martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I guarantee not everyone can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds. I have seen some struggle with a trash mob.
That is not being redundant. That is merely stating facts. For some that just might be an inconvenient fact.
So the game must be set at the lowest possible level?
That is as bad as setting it at the highest possible level to appease the minority at the top in terms of player ability.
Also your observation that you have seen some struggle with a trash mob is based on your impression of what you think is happening rather than that person describing their experience as a struggle. What if it was that persons very first MMO or first week playing ESO - should they just be able to beat mobs without any form of learning curve?
Maybe for you the inconvenient fact is that many people find the overland content too easy. How do we know? Because we are communicating it here in person.Edited by martinhpb16_ESO on May 25, 2018 6:42PMAt least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*2 -
Kuwhar✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
Just read my previous post rather than redundantly responding; quest bosses die in 3 seconds on a level 10 character with no champion points invested. That is a problem for most players in the game which is why these threads pop up every couple of days. Extending that 3 seconds to 30 seconds without increasing a quest boss’ power should be sufficient to solve the problem.
Read posts, then respond. Don’t be a ***
Im not sure how this can be a constructive discussion if its not an honest one.
I forget the name of the public dungeon, think its in stormhaven? With oathbreakers and ogrims etc.
Ran through that last night and none of the quest bosses "died in 3 seconds on a level 10". Im CP53 and even with other randoms in the dungeon helping on a few (cp100+) the bosses weren't pushovers.
Hell, slogging through that dungeon was a pain because groups of 5-6 mobs were pounding me through heavy armor.
Not about to say it was "hard" but, it seemed a good challenge where i had to pay attention but not be mashing like a crazy person.
And threads like this pop up every so often because:
1. People mostly come to forums to complain.
2. People that are on the forums are more likely to be the hardcore addicts (not judging)
3. Those hardcore players are generally at the top in terms of skill, progression, number crunching etc.
I invite you to run through that dungeon on a level 10 and prove me wrong. Ill get the name later tonight.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »
I guarantee not everyone can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds. I have seen some struggle with a trash mob.
That is not being redundant. That is merely stating facts. For some that just might be an inconvenient fact.
So the game must be set at the lowest possible level?
That is as bad as setting it at the highest possible level to appease the minority at the top in terms of player ability.
Lowest possible level? No, I think it is clearly not set to that.
It does have what some would easily consider an easy level, but that is subjective which has been my point.
It seems with your comment we are back to square one. I could suggest read through my posts again because I will not repeat myself totally, but what you consider easy someone else considers a challenge, In the same token, what you consider a challenge someone else considers painfully easy.
Zos accommodates most pretty well. If you are looking for zone content to be where you find some challenge and MMORPG may not be your cup of tea.0 -
gnarlyvandal✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
Asking for content to feel normal, not challenging.
Define normal?
You can define normal for yourself, but you are unable to define normal for everyone. Just not possible.
What might be normal for you is absurdly easy for someone else and immensely challenging for another. I see it all the time. Go through a dungeon with a group of friends and we face roll most vet dungeons on HM. Enter GF and the same dungeon, not doing HM, can be much of a challenge.
So in the end, tiered difficulty is what we have. Overland and regular questing is fairly easy, it is more about the story line.
I assume I do not have to explain the various tiers we have in many popular MMOs including ESO.
Just read my previous post rather than redundantly responding; quest bosses die in 3 seconds on a level 10 character with no champion points invested. That is a problem for most players in the game which is why these threads pop up every couple of days. Extending that 3 seconds to 30 seconds without increasing a quest boss’ power should be sufficient to solve the problem.
Read posts, then respond. Don’t be a ***
Im not sure how this can be a constructive discussion if its not an honest one.
I forget the name of the public dungeon, think its in stormhaven? With oathbreakers and ogrims etc.
Ran through that last night and none of the quest bosses "died in 3 seconds on a level 10". Im CP53 and even with other randoms in the dungeon helping on a few (cp100+) the bosses weren't pushovers.
Hell, slogging through that dungeon was a pain because groups of 5-6 mobs were pounding me through heavy armor.
Not about to say it was "hard" but, it seemed a good challenge where i had to pay attention but not be mashing like a crazy person.
And threads like this pop up every so often because:
1. People mostly come to forums to complain.
2. People that are on the forums are more likely to be the hardcore addicts (not judging)
3. Those hardcore players are generally at the top in terms of skill, progression, number crunching etc.
I invite you to run through that dungeon on a level 10 and prove me wrong. Ill get the name later tonight.
Did I say anything about public dungeons? Don’t think I did. Maybe 1 public dungeon per zone? 1-2 quests per public dungeon? The dungeons designed for a small group yeah? Definitely representative of most of the overland quests...
...or not.Edited by gnarlyvandal on May 25, 2018 7:02PM0 -
Skeletalkk✭✭✭I'm only level 300 something (whatever, who cares) I mostly play PvE but its so boring not even having to really use skills during PvE, I'm just clicking a few times and it kills most mobs even small bosses, its just not fun.
edit: also killing bosses before they finish their first sentence lmao whats that all about?
Finishing a really good quest, reaching the big guy and killing him in a few seconds......Edited by Skeletalkk on May 25, 2018 7:09PM- PC EU -I JUST WANT MORE DAMN HOUSE ITEM SLOTS.Kireth Telvanni - Dunmer - MagSorc
The Ending of Words is AlmSiVi.
Accept Mephala's Embrace.2 -
summitxho✭✭✭my girlfriend who started playing a few months ago still struggles with bosses on overland content I can verify, we are both horrible players and play a few hours a week, its more about the story for us instead of the challenge, no time invested in rotations or learning to play I will admit. While I find the overland content pretty easy due to CP level, seeing her struggle as a newbie (level 24 currently) made me realize overland content is fine where its at. I am sure there are some ideas to better give vet players more of a challenge, but I would not increase overland difficulty for all players, I think there are a lot of horrible players playing this game like us, but who knows. One suggestion I would make is perhaps try playing with one weapon only? Handicap yourself, but in a realistic way.Edited by summitxho on May 25, 2018 7:14PM0
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gnarlyvandal✭✭✭martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »
I guarantee not everyone can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds. I have seen some struggle with a trash mob.
That is not being redundant. That is merely stating facts. For some that just might be an inconvenient fact.
So the game must be set at the lowest possible level?
That is as bad as setting it at the highest possible level to appease the minority at the top in terms of player ability.
Lowest possible level? No, I think it is clearly not set to that.
It does have what some would easily consider an easy level, but that is subjective which has been my point.
It seems with your comment we are back to square one. I could suggest read through my posts again because I will not repeat myself totally, but what you consider easy someone else considers a challenge, In the same token, what you consider a challenge someone else considers painfully easy.
Zos accommodates most pretty well. If you are looking for zone content to be where you find some challenge and MMORPG may not be your cup of tea.
Again mate, you’re missing the point, it’s not looking for a ‘challenge’, it’s about not facerolling every quest. You keep mentioning mmorpg not being people’s cup of tea.. I’ve played an absolute ton of MMO’s, and I’ve not had ordinary quests ‘bosses’ die as easily as in ESO, yeah trash mobs can drop by looking at them for all I care.
But if an enemy NPC has their name/health gilded as an elite, then don’t have their health as low as trash mobs? Seems obvious...
Can’t believe I’ve had to explain myself this much over something so simple...
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Zardayne✭✭✭✭✭martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »
I think it's just the sign of the times and this bleeds over into everything. I'm a Safety & Training Manager by trade and unfortunately even safety training is broken down so that even the least intelligent/experienced in class can understand. This is great and all in the safety field , especially for new hands, because you want them to understand it in a classroom environment and then hit the plant and not get hurt. The ones who suffer though from this bottom up approach are the mid range and veteran workers. You can tell because during the classes they're the ones drifting off and due to their disinterest they're not getting near as much out of it. It would be ideal if I could split training into experienced and green hands but unfortunately there's not enough time in the day usually. On rare occasions you get a classroom of veteran workers you can tell their more interested and engaged when I'm able to elevate the training to their level. It also enables me to talk about more advanced items that they can relate to usually ending in a way more productive time. I guess what I've learned here is in my field, teaching to the lowest possible level makes sure the inexperienced get the message and injuries are prevented. From a business stand point this is what you need on construction. No injuries=more jobs=more money. If the same is true in MMOs the least experienced get to enjoy their game and learn the basics, The veterans in game who would like to be included are really met with the same ole same ole they've been rehashing for years and thus become disinterested (just like my vet trainees) until the next dungeon and trial are released and the game developer reaps even more cash due to dragging in a lot larger catch of normally non MMO gamers who realize you don't have to group in 80% of the game so they play waiting for Skyrim 8 or whatever.
I have a feeling money and masses are going to win even though the developer should be just as concerned about our well being as they are a newer or casual players.Edited by Zardayne on May 25, 2018 7:43PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gnarlyvandal wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »
I guarantee not everyone can kill a quest boss in 3 seconds. I have seen some struggle with a trash mob.
That is not being redundant. That is merely stating facts. For some that just might be an inconvenient fact.
So the game must be set at the lowest possible level?
That is as bad as setting it at the highest possible level to appease the minority at the top in terms of player ability.
Lowest possible level? No, I think it is clearly not set to that.
It does have what some would easily consider an easy level, but that is subjective which has been my point.
It seems with your comment we are back to square one. I could suggest read through my posts again because I will not repeat myself totally, but what you consider easy someone else considers a challenge, In the same token, what you consider a challenge someone else considers painfully easy.
Zos accommodates most pretty well. If you are looking for zone content to be where you find some challenge and MMORPG may not be your cup of tea.
Again mate, you’re missing the point, it’s not looking for a ‘challenge’, it’s about not facerolling every quest. You keep mentioning mmorpg not being people’s cup of tea.. I’ve played an absolute ton of MMO’s, and I’ve not had ordinary quests ‘bosses’ die as easily as in ESO, yeah trash mobs can drop by looking at them for all I care.
But if an enemy NPC has their name/health gilded as an elite, then don’t have their health as low as trash mobs? Seems obvious...
Can’t believe I’ve had to explain myself this much over something so simple...
Please do not tell me I have missed the point when it is clear I have not.
I understand what you are attempting to argue.
The post just before this last one of yours. It explains things well. I also suggest you read through what I have already posted here as I do not see the need to constantly repeat myself to you.
We all have the right to our opinions are we have the right to disagree with the opinions others have. However, I have not been posting my opinion on the matter but merely explaining why things are the way they are.
I have been speaking as a matter of fact as to the reasons what you desire will not happen. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
So we have to raid vAS HM etc. to being "allowed" to find overland conten funsucking easy? That's a very obscure opinion. Not to mention that thanks to the easy ol content you run into a brick wall once you set foot into a more demanding environment.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »gnarlyvandal wrote: »3) I agree that power creep is an issue, and many players have suggested a veteran overland which would be nice, but honestly I think the only change that needs to be made would be to increase the health of quest bosses to roughly half of the world bosses, so they don’t die to less than one full rotation, even on alts.
Would make questing more satisfying without making lower level players unable to complete content; this would provide double benefit as it would at least mean new players could learn not to stand in the red circles of doom
The problem here is that:
1. It would take newer players, who deal far less damage than end game players with fully built characters, way longer to kill these buffed mobs, and.
2. This would just turn mobs into damage sponges. The problem with overland as an end game player is that mobs die too quickly, and mobs deal very little damage. As an end game player, I don't need to bother about blocking that heavy attack, because it's just inconvenient, not lethal. To make overland truly more difficult, mobs need to be buffed in both their health, and their damage. Or, as my last comment suggested, we need to be nerfed in terms of our damage, and our mitigation.
I do understand what you mean, but I completely disagree. You’re assuming the changes have to be aimed at end game players, that isn’t even the case.
My magdk is level 10, right now I have no CP invested in that character, although I have roughly 500cp ‘in the bank’ and don’t have half my armour and jewellery slots filled. Just to reiterate, character is lvl 10 and is using zero CP.
So, right off the bat, this magdk cannot be considered end game in any way.
Yet.... When I’m doing a quest and get to the ‘boss’ of said quest, they die in literally a few hits.
Can’t remember dk’s skill names so bare with me here:
Rotation: weapon buff (flame sword), defence buff (ugly crystals), flame swipe (the mag DOT), flame lash (whip), then uppercut (the 2h stam move that takes a second to channel). Quest bosses die to this by the time I’m using my uppercut...
That is a problem. A HUGE problem. In fact, for me it is one of the only problems ESO has.
The trolls and elephants in the world have more health than quest bosses. I can’t believe that someone is so bad at the game that if they opposed one of those two ‘half elite’ mobs that they couldn’t kill it and rage quit due to the game being too hard.
EVERY game has a learning curve, yes cause of animation cancelling the curve in ESO is slightly higher than other MMO’s, but it’s not necessary to do content. If you feel it is necessary it’s not hard to learn to do, just go play a fighting game for half hour to teach yourself (street fighter, dragon ball fighterz, marvel vs capcom). Every move on those games are optimised through animation cancelling, will give you some transferable skills for gaming ;P
I’m not saying make the fights a HP grind, but adding health so that fights take more than 3 seconds would be nice. It’s so anticlimactic building up tension through the quests story to find that the enemy everybody is afraid of gets dropped before they can even finish saying the dialogue ZOS gave them. That is a PROBLEM.
No need to make the game harder, no need for enemies to deal more damage, no need for Veteran overland (although that would be fun), just give them a BIT of *** health to make me feel like I’m actually playing a game rather than grinding skill points or levels. Just because their health does need to be raised, does NOT mean it has to be raised so high ordinary players can’t beat it or spend 10 minutes+ trying to, but 30 seconds to a single minute is not exactly difficult!
This!
I usually play PvE with my GF, that I'd describe as a casual eso player, while myself is also far from l33t. No optimised builds, she's nowhere near CP cap, not even golded out gear. And still she finds it very disappointing that even quest line's final bosses die before a rotation is laid down.
Just like you said, very anticlimatic for those very nicely written quests to have no climax from a gameplay pov.
Sometimes enemies feel more like a chore than a fun obstacle. Very suboptimal for a video game.
If 'd want to simply experience a story with not the slightest of a challenge I'd read a book or watch a movie instead.
And this is normal for MMORPGs not to mention you GF is probably not a complete noob.
Not to mention the realities that most of the people in this thread have not cleared all the most challenging content yet they seem to want everything else to become more challenging.
Seems kind of hypocritical. Read my post on the previous page.
So we have to raid vAS HM etc. to being "allowed" to find overland conten funsucking easy? That's a very obscure opinion. Not to mention that thanks to the easy ol content you run into a brick wall once you set foot into a more demanding environment.
@Chilly-McFreeze
Your comment makes little sense. If I have missed the point completely then I suggest you please reword your statement.
I have said nothing that being able to clear vAS HM is required for overland content to be extremely easy.
I suggest reading over the several posts I have made in here today to get a complete understanding of why overland is easy and that their is a tiered difficulty in ESO like most MMORPGs.
I have not been expressing my opinion but merely stating why it will not change. For higher difficulty there is other content in the game to suite most difficulty levels, like most MMORPGs have.Edited by idk on May 25, 2018 8:03PM0 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »BrightOblivion wrote: »I remind you that the entire aim of One Tamriel and points after is enabling anyone of almost any skill level to experience any overland questing content at any point in almost any order.
But actually it isn't because ESO in its current form is not meeting my expectations of what is playable in a video game. The overland content is so easy for me - I dont even have to try and I win - that the experience is sub-par.
To be honest these days I am a pretty poor pve player.
The experience in terms of my characters abilities and the time I have dedicated to building that character is poor.
It is as if there was no One Tamriel and my cap character is questing in a zone 10-20 levels lower.
Therefore One-Tamriel is not working as intended for me and a whole bunch of other customers.
Except you are experiencing it. You are able to complete the quests. In almost any order, at almost any level, at almost any time. Which, by the way, is exactly what One Tamriel was intended to do. You not liking how it turned out does not change its intent, it just makes it unsatisfactory to you. Additionally, I didn't specify (and neither did they) that it wouldn't be a breeze to do if you were more experienced, simply that you could complete it.
Because here's the thing. Non-optionally (and notice that I specify non-optionally- no vet toggles, no difficulty sliders, nothing) increasing the difficulty so that you and that "whole bunch of customers" feels challenged and are like "Yeah! This overland content is tough and we find it fun!" means that another whole bunch of customers- one that's possibly, even probably larger than your bunch- may be unable to complete it at all. And faced with the choice between people being unable to complete the content and experience the story, or finding it far too easy, between not being able to experience it at all or finding the experience subpar, I will pick the latter every day of the week and twice on Sunday. And that's from someone who is actually able to take out almost every quest boss (outside of Craglorn and maybe some in Wrothgar) in one magsorc rotation.
I've done almost every quest in almost every zone, save Clockwork City and Summerset, though I did Vvardenfell on an alt and am currently working through it on my main. And you know what? My least favorite zone, by far, was Craglorn. Others may be like "Yeah, the difficulty's awesome!" I hated it. I've beaten vMA, not flawlessly mind you, but definitely beaten it. I've done every trial on normal and HRC and AA on vet. So I'm not exactly a completely terrible player, I suppose. But this zone was awful. The mob sizes made everything a slog, the bosses seemed gimmicky. I walked into Shada's Tear a few days ago, walked out over two hours later, and my first words were "Never again." You could not pay me to go through that again. I spent over 15 minutes bashing my head against one boss, dying, and trying again, and finally had to sneak past it. I swear, even vMA didn't make me as irate as Shada's Tear did.
"But it's group content!" I can hear some of you yelling at your screens. Okay. Right. And do you see anyone lining up to group for Craglorn overland content? Because I sure don't, and I'm in three guilds that usually dance near capacity. I'd hate to see how a newer player managed. But people want to make it all more difficult, more like Craglorn? I'm sorry...sort of...ish..not really, but no. Gods, no.
It seems to me as though your argument boils down to "This overland questing story content is too easy for me and I want it harder and/or want the newer questing story content to be tailored for my difficulty level. It doesn't matter if another, possibly larger group would then find it miserable, impossible to complete, or need to beg other stronger players to come help them finish the quests," and frankly, I'll pass. It's incredibly likely there's a sweet spot at some point, or maybe there could be a vet mode toggle/difficulty slider option, but full bore cranking it to 11 (or even 8) just so you and that "whole bunch of customers" find the story content challenging? Flies about as well as the Hindenburg after the explosion.1 -
kichwas✭✭✭✭
Cosmetics.
Basically you either have vertical progression like WoW and FFXIV -
- where every x months ALL of your gear becomes junk,
- everything from crafting is junk, crafting becomes worthless,
- any zone older than the latest patch has NO ONE playing in it,
- people become hyper sensitive to 'dead time' where there hasn't been a patch recently enough due to all old content being worthless,
- people start thinking they're better players just because they have the newer stuff...
- PvP is not a matter of skill but a matter of having better gear.
Or you have Horizontal progression like Guild Wars 2 -
- where players are still wearing the gear they got in 2013,
- and people who don't care about fashion or mini-pets leave the game,
- crafting is more important that raiding or dungeons,
- folks complain all night long that the outfits in crown store don't look good enough,
- people demand bikini-sets and complain about everything having a butt-flap or skirt - when outfits ARE progression it's looks or nothing.
- progression is counted by the number of mini-pets you have,
- anything you can buy in the store but not grind for in world becomes a focal point of player rebellion,
- and the main-towns fill up with people doing fashion contests.
- Old zones are often more popular than new ones if they have less advanced mob-AIs or better mat farming in them...
- Take your pick.
Developers really can't win...
Edited by kichwas on May 25, 2018 8:43PMJah bless
PST timezone - mostly PvE player.
Super casual player
Seeking a casual 'lets do some dungeons and world stuff together' guild.1