zyk wrote: »

SirCritical wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

However, in this case, the reward is for an important Skill line that players will want on frequently played characters.

-1000/10

Heh? What's your problem, since you just concluded: it's a powerful skill-line. Why should they give it to you for free? Even legerdemain skill-line needed more time to max out (because of it's daily limits). I'm really not rushing, but I maxed psijics skill-line yesterday, with clearing up the stacks of surveys and treasure chests (collected by 9 characters in the latest anniversary event) in every zone.

You missed my point entirely.

I'm not displeased because it's not free. I dislike that it's extremely boring. Content this mindless is *painful* for me. I would be okay with it if it was behind and interesting questline or challenging in some way instead of the equivalent of 60 crafting surveys located across base game zones.

Legerdemain is much more interesting with the potential for interesting rewards along the way.

It is boring because you want to jump to the end result, without doing it bit by bit, daily or from time to time, as the devs designed it. They don't want the large majority to get this skill line maxed quickly and for all the alts. Otherwise there would have been a Psijic token in the crown store.

The Psijics are a legendary faction in the TES universe. So leveling them should take some time. The content is a week old. Why are you in a hurry? If you would have it maxed in a day across all of your alts you or other people would complain that it is very easy and everybody has it.

I do agree that some mechanics in this game are a bit boring or repetitive. This is mostly the case if you want to play more than one char competitively, like having achievements, skill lines, shards, books, etc for alts. But I doubt the devs imagined the game such that your alts are just clones of your main char's progress.

I have leveled the mages guild to 10 on two chars. But this took time (a lot), and it did not feel like a stupid grind, because when I started it I accepted that it will take weeks. I did the book hunt only in the days when I was in the mood to do it, so it did not feel stupid at all. Keep in mind that it is us, as players, who make things hard or boring for us, not the game. The game is just a hobby.. an environment for us to have fun. The desire to overachieve sometimes cuts of the fun. My advice to you is to do these grinds with a friend or two, then it will be much more fun, even if the game mechanic is flawed.

zyk wrote: »

SirCritical wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

However, in this case, the reward is for an important Skill line that players will want on frequently played characters.

-1000/10

Heh? What's your problem, since you just concluded: it's a powerful skill-line. Why should they give it to you for free? Even legerdemain skill-line needed more time to max out (because of it's daily limits). I'm really not rushing, but I maxed psijics skill-line yesterday, with clearing up the stacks of surveys and treasure chests (collected by 9 characters in the latest anniversary event) in every zone.

You missed my point entirely.

I'm not displeased because it's not free. I dislike that it's extremely boring. Content this mindless is *painful* for me. I would be okay with it if it was behind and interesting questline or challenging in some way instead of the equivalent of 60 crafting surveys located across base game zones.

Legerdemain is much more interesting with the potential for interesting rewards along the way.

I think I see your point, and agree that doing the same thing again and again is boring. But I wouldn't say the questline is utterly uninteresting. And back to legerdemain: which interesting rewards are you talking about? The lots of vegetables looted from the barrels and sacks in Koeglin's village? Because I hope you did not commit the mistake of raising it purely by pickpocketing

this new guild line is all travel quests though, so very new player unfriendly if you don't have a mount or have a slow one.
fighters and mage guild you can do at any level roughly at same speed
if you are new, have none of the locations yet in your map, and no or slow mount this new guild will take a LOT longer to complete.

The laziest piece of PvE content creation they have embarked on so far.

They could literally have the first couple of quests and the last one and just chop everything in the middle.

It would be like trying to drag the Hobbit film out into 10 films instead of just 3!

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I thought it was pretty fun to do with friends, and much nicer than grinding dolmens for the Fighters Guild and much less running around that hunting lore books.

Then again, I'm spoiled on lore books since I'm on PC and can use add-ons.

I'm not against content like this for people who enjoy it, but I don't think a major Skill Line should be tied to it.

I thought the Lost Library of Andule in Morrowind was a much better implementation because it was something that only had to be done once and the reward was compelling without being something every competitive player felt they must have. Plus it was entirely within Vvardenfell which was still new and interesting to me at the time.

In contrast, this is something I'll feel compelled to do on multiple characters which I'm dreading. If it was something that could be completed in Summerset, it wouldn't be so bad as that content is still new and interesting. I'm completely sick of the base content from leveling alts and the holiday events.

It's funny that you say you enjoyed completing it with a friend because the Craglorn segment reminded me of the original implementation of Craglorn which featured combat that was fun to do with friends. It made me a little sad that all overland content is so easy, that I'd never consider questing with another player anymore.

I wouldn't call it a major skill line tbh. Its got some fun stuff but thats about it. A major skill line would be classes tbh.

As someone who has done it on multiple characters already I can tell you its really not so bad. its simple. Just skip the dialogue etc and just keep moving and dont stop. I did it in under 4 hours so seriously its not that bad.

I think the problem here is that people see every skill line as a grind or repetitive but the problem is that its how its designed for nearly every non class/weapon skill line. Its been like this since the beginning. The argument shouldn't be against the skill line itself but rather how ZoS implements them.

If you were new to the game it might be more fun. You would need to get discover the various locations, and do some other quests.

zyk wrote: »

Has ZOS watched us collect shards and lorebooks and reached the conclusion that this is strong game design? Do they think we enjoy it? Everyone I know considers those steps in leveling an alt to be painful.

I kind of disagree with this. The game should be experienced as a whole. You shouldn't divide it into different compartments. You shouldn't have nor want to 'grind' shards and lorebooks, you should stumble upon them through your adventures. It's the adventure that should count, but we have a habit to turn it all into a grind and then complain about exactly that; the grind which we ourselves created.
So yes, if the ultimate is your goal, it's gonna be a grind, because you set that goal for yourself, you and you alone are to blame. I don't think ZOS needs to make any changes to those two 'mechanics'.

I do agree however that the Psijic order is indeed a grind. Every other aspect in the game is intertwined with regular gameplay. The Psijic order is not. You can't simply decide to spend some time in Worthgar, enjoying the quests and scenery meanwhile also increasing your Psijic order skill. I feel that compared to every other mechanic, this particular part feels very out of place.

This 'skill line' is basically the reason I bought the expac. I don't really care much for the zone itself as I have so much more of Tamriel to explore still. Needless to say I'm very disappointed with this expansion.
On the other hand, I know ZOS always has an ear for feedback. As disappointed as I am in the skill line, as firmly convinced I am that ZOS will find a way to better integrate it into the game.

Edit: sorry, not a native speaker, it shows, I know

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I thought it was pretty fun to do with friends, and much nicer than grinding dolmens for the Fighters Guild and much less running around that hunting lore books.

Then again, I'm spoiled on lore books since I'm on PC and can use add-ons.

I'm not against content like this for people who enjoy it, but I don't think a major Skill Line should be tied to it.

I thought the Lost Library of Andule in Morrowind was a much better implementation because it was something that only had to be done once and the reward was compelling without being something every competitive player felt they must have. Plus it was entirely within Vvardenfell which was still new and interesting to me at the time.

In contrast, this is something I'll feel compelled to do on multiple characters which I'm dreading. If it was something that could be completed in Summerset, it wouldn't be so bad as that content is still new and interesting. I'm completely sick of the base content from leveling alts and the holiday events.

It's funny that you say you enjoyed completing it with a friend because the Craglorn segment reminded me of the original implementation of Craglorn which featured combat that was fun to do with friends. It made me a little sad that all overland content is so easy, that I'd never consider questing with another player anymore.

I wouldn't call it a major skill line tbh. Its got some fun stuff but thats about it. A major skill line would be classes tbh.

As someone who has done it on multiple characters already I can tell you its really not so bad. its simple. Just skip the dialogue etc and just keep moving and dont stop. I did it in under 4 hours so seriously its not that bad.

I think the problem here is that people see every skill line as a grind or repetitive but the problem is that its how its designed for nearly every non class/weapon skill line. Its been like this since the beginning. The argument shouldn't be against the skill line itself but rather how ZoS implements them.

It has required skills for several DPS classes to min/max their performance. It has a ton of PVP utility. Like every other "major" skill line, it has 5 skills and an ultimate. Define Major for me.

"A major skill line would be classes tbh."

I already did smart arse. You should really read the first line that you decided to be picky with putting in bold.

You mean channeled accel and imbue? 2 skills, 2 that you dont need to complete the whole skill line for? seriously? you just get to 5 and you're set. Beyond 5 is mend wounds and meditate. Then theres only one useful passive towards the top which is cost reduction.

Alternatively a major skill line would also be a weapon skill line.

The utility strength of the skillline is debatable - meditate can be bashed and negated by defile. Undo sacrifices damage for a perfectly timed ult or bust and then theres a tiny damage shield passive and the damage reduction passive which honestly only works well for mend wounds and meditate and even then mend wounds comes out as better as at least you're being somewhat useful. Meditate just means you're gaining resources back but you're doing nothing else. Not helping your group and not beating your opponent you're just floating there trolling most of the time and even if you manage to break line of sight you often dont have enough time to gain back resources enough that even make a difference in the fight because they already caught up to you no nightblade would slot it on a good build and only sorcs would probably 100% benefit as they can break LoS much easier than most due to streak.

Generally speaking its impact on pvp is tiny by comparison to the TG and MG skill lines.

AchlysNox wrote: »

ZOS developer meeting on the Psijic questline:

Dev 1: I have this great new idea for a type of quests we can make!
Dev 2: Oh?
Dev 1: How about we make the player read a map, then ride to that point on the map and press E?
Dev 2: That's awesome! Let's make them do that 60 times in a row! That'll be super fun!
Dev 1: Can we put the locations in hard to reach places far away from way shrines and scatter them all over the map requiring multiple loading screens to complete each quest along the way?
Dev 2: Sure! And then we can harass them along the way with this annoying disembodied voice that babbles nonsensically!
Dev 1: This is pure gold!

>_<

It's more like:

Lead Dev: Hey you. Put together the Psijiic questline. You have $100 and 2 days to get it done.

Psijiic skilline was wonderfully designed. It's like the questline was an afterthought.

Agree 100% with you OP, it is extremely boring and I do not want to do it with any of my alts. Unfortunately, I will probably have to do at least a little bit for some of the skills to be unlocked. This is just a giant scavenger hunt like the skyshards & lorebooks, I've literally fallen asleep 2x trying to complete it on my main character. My friends feel the same way, we usually end up doing a little bit then off to do other activities like pvp or log off to play other games together. Whoever came up with the Psijic Questline grind was not creative at all, this isn't good content & it isn't good design. It's just grinding that doesn't make me want to spend more time in the game.

I finished it some days ago. It actually wasn’t as bad as expected. That is, if you use Alcast’s maps instead of the game ones. Those are hilariously inaccurate in some cases. The final boss fight is disappointing though.