ZOS- please stop the power creep- you've made your own content redundant.

MakoFore · May 2018

the title is self evident- but with CP now at 750 - (almost 30 percent more than what much of the content was scaled for), with stronger and stronger item sets, the power creep has made this game boring. You re killing your own game here ZOS- youve lowered the hoop to 6 foot- where everyone can dunk it- and thereby making it not challenging for anybody . Dungeons are mindlessly easy now- they already were- but now even the latest dungeons, scale and fang , hard modes- well designed bosses, can be burned ,skipping the actually well designed mechanics.
vMA- once the measure of solo play- is now essentially as normal mode was a year and half ago.
Questing is just running from arrow to arrow and ending with a 2 hit thumping of a low health "boss".

perhaps this is the conscious strategy - to funnel everyody into continually buying new trials and DLC's, but would be a mistep. There is alot of value left in the old content- but ur making it worthless. At least perhaps re-buff the old dungeons and overland - to a third difficulty that drops Gold Jewellery, or something of the like.
Anyway - maybe some people enjoy this- but I want the game to be as challenging as it once was- when you had to get a group to go into craglorn- when you needed help to do a dolmen, when finishing a trial was satisfying. now it seems you hit a certain CP- and u turn a corner and 98 percent of the games content becomes futile.

Marabornwingrion · May 2018

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

Turelus · May 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

I couldn't agree more.
For me personally I've not seen much good come from the CP system and it's only caused more issues than it solved. They should have just made Veteran levels account wide (like CP) and stuck with that system.

CP is neat and I like the idea behind it, but it should never have become a system where it increased power, or if it does remove the double dip (attribute bonus) to start with. I remember when this was announced and talked about as the whole parts of a whole, slices of pie thing at the guild summit and it sounded great.
It didn't work that way though, it just become more of the same buff everything on your character with no meaningful choice required.

SixVoltCar · May 2018

MakoFore wrote: »

the title is self evident- but with CP now at 750 - (almost 30 percent more than what much of the content was scaled for), with stronger and stronger item sets, the power creep has made this game boring. You re killing your own game here ZOS- youve lowered the hoop to 6 foot- where everyone can dunk it- and thereby making it not challenging for anybody . Dungeons are mindlessly easy now- they already were- but now even the latest dungeons, scale and fang , hard modes- well designed bosses, can be burned ,skipping the actually well designed mechanics.
vMA- once the measure of solo play- is now essentially as normal mode was a year and half ago.
Questing is just running from arrow to arrow and ending with a 2 hit thumping of a low health "boss".

perhaps this is the conscious strategy - to funnel everyody into continually buying new trials and DLC's, but would be a mistep. There is alot of value left in the old content- but ur making it worthless. At least perhaps re-buff the old dungeons and overland - to a third difficulty that drops Gold Jewellery, or something of the like.
Anyway - maybe some people enjoy this- but I want the game to be as challenging as it once was- when you had to get a group to go into craglorn- when you needed help to do a dolmen, when finishing a trial was satisfying. now it seems you hit a certain CP- and u turn a corner and 98 percent of the games content becomes futile.

So go into compeditive play and stop thinking the entire playerbase is as good as you/ will continue paying when they can't match you.

I agree that the Champion stuff is out of hand though, I'd prefer that it didn't exist at all.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · May 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

I'm sure i've annoyed half of the forums saying this over and over but its true. The champion system is the root cause of all the power creep and all of the terrible class skill nerfs.

The CP system should offer non-combat enhancing perks. Such as making wolves not attack you. (Beastmaster perk) No more stat pool increases, defense increases or flat damage perks.

Coatmagic · May 2018

"The champion system is the root cause of all the power creep and all of the terrible class skill nerfs."

>> ZoS refusing to do what every other game does and stubbornly, stupidly, and lazily insist on trying to balance PvP and PvE is the cause of ALL nerfs ~ to classes and fun sets, etc et al...

"The CP system should offer non-combat enhancing perks. Such as making wolves not attack you. (Beastmaster perk) No more stat pool increases, defense increases or flat damage perks."

>> That being said, I neither agree nor disagree with this portion of your statement, as nearly none of what they do effects my personal gameplay whatsoever.

Uviryth · May 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

What do you propose as alternative for a horizontal progression? Armor that becomes obsolete every three months like other mmo`s do?

Mavloc · May 2018

If they can scale mobs up to match your level while leveling, they should be able to scale people down in dungeons.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2018

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

I'm sure i've annoyed half of the forums saying this over and over but its true. The champion system is the root cause of all the power creep and all of the terrible class skill nerfs.

The CP system should offer non-combat enhancing perks. Such as making wolves not attack you. (Beastmaster perk) No more stat pool increases, defense increases or flat damage perks.

Couldn't agree more. Cp sucks the life out of every class.

Digiman · May 2018

I like the system, it makes progression more satisfying, IF YOUR HAVE AN EASY TIME YOU PICKED THE WRONG DUNGEON.

But I am guessing most of the comments supporting the OP are from premaders and haven't pugged.

Now there is difficulty for you.

Feanor · May 2018

ZoS refusing to do what every other game does and stubbornly, stupidly, and lazily insist on trying to balance PvP and PvE is the cause of ALL nerfs ~ to classes and fun sets, etc et al...

This just a forum myth that doesn’t gain more truth the more it gets repeated. The fact is that both PvE and PvP are getting out of hand, and that ZOS tries to combat this with band aid fixes to sustain, class abilities and passives, and set adjustments.

If you pretend CP didn’t exist, most balancing problems would be just a matter of adjusting numbers. But as long as you have to balance content for CP and noCP and you increase player power via CP system with every update, the sweet spot for both PvE and PvP is always out of reach.

If you take vMA, some years ago the best players ran this in 1h 30m. Then the benchmark shifted to under an hour. Now the best ones run it under 30 minutes. It was never intended to be like that.

Datthaw · May 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

The cp system is an end game crutch tbh. They take this away and people might actually have to wear sustain and max stat sets in pve instead of just stacking damage. And in pvp it will remove all the total min maxed troll builds that totally take advantage of sets plus cp to buff the hell out of something such as defile.

Uviryth · May 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

The cp system is an end game crutch tbh. They take this away and people might actually have to wear sustain and max stat sets in pve instead of just stacking damage. And in pvp it will remove all the total min maxed troll builds that totally take advantage of sets plus cp to buff the hell out of something such as defile.

Without the CPsystem no one would play the game anymore, because there would be literally no way to advance your character. And no mmo works without an infinite horizontal progression.

Doctordarkspawn · May 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

The cp system is an end game crutch tbh. They take this away and people might actually have to wear sustain and max stat sets in pve instead of just stacking damage. And in pvp it will remove all the total min maxed troll builds that totally take advantage of sets plus cp to buff the hell out of something such as defile.

...People allready do that. People have had to do that since the morrowind nerfs.

And in order for the game to function after the CP system is removed alot of calibration will need to be made. The game is currently built -around- the system is far as endgame is concerned.

Expecting people to remove it, without the damage calibrated or the damage resistance of enemies calibrated to suit, shows a lack of ability to think through your choices.

VaranisArano · May 2018

So basically ZOS should have handed out nerfs all around like they did last year with Morrowind the last time things were way out of hand?

Thats how,ZOS handles it. When they cant make more difficult content, they nerf everyone.

Turelus · May 2018

Uviryth wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

What do you propose as alternative for a horizontal progression? Armor that becomes obsolete every three months like other mmo`s do?

Or just don't have progression. Guild Wars 1 was fine with hitting cap, getting gear and skills and just enjoying PvP or group content.
Change the meta up with balance, but we don't have to have more power every update to feel like we're progressing. It's also easier to balance.

Datthaw · May 2018

Uviryth wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

The cp system is an end game crutch tbh. They take this away and people might actually have to wear sustain and max stat sets in pve instead of just stacking damage. And in pvp it will remove all the total min maxed troll builds that totally take advantage of sets plus cp to buff the hell out of something such as defile.

Without the CPsystem no one would play the game anymore, because there would be literally no way to advance your character. And no mmo works without an infinite horizontal progression.

Lol people always say this and tbh it's ***. You find me a mmo with eso combat.... I'll wait

Edit and to prove my point you don't see mobs of people leaving atm who are already at max cp most of these people the bump up the cp level and they don't even have to get anymore levels they are already at like 900 cp

Datthaw · May 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

The cp system is an end game crutch tbh. They take this away and people might actually have to wear sustain and max stat sets in pve instead of just stacking damage. And in pvp it will remove all the total min maxed troll builds that totally take advantage of sets plus cp to buff the hell out of something such as defile.

...People allready do that. People have had to do that since the morrowind nerfs.

And in order for the game to function after the CP system is removed alot of calibration will need to be made. The game is currently built -around- the system is far as endgame is concerned.

Expecting people to remove it, without the damage calibrated or the damage resistance of enemies calibrated to suit, shows a lack of ability to think through your choices.

I get what your saying newer content would be tough without some changes. But the 80% of the remaining content wouldn't be mind numbing. If the changed cp to something non combat related it might help

Uviryth · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

What do you propose as alternative for a horizontal progression? Armor that becomes obsolete every three months like other mmo`s do?

Or just don't have progression. Guild Wars 1 was fine with hitting cap, getting gear and skills and just enjoying PvP or group content.
Change the meta up with balance, but we don't have to have more power every update to feel like we're progressing. It's also easier to balance.

GuildWars1 sucked, hard, if you wheren`t into insta-PvP
The only reason people played it was for its whimsicle characters and graphics and the fact that there was no other Softcore-Asiagame at the time.
And even those who played it only played it casually on the side, while gearing up and leveling in their main-mmo. You know, the ones with progressionsystems.

Bigevilpeter · May 2018

Most of the content was not doable by 90% of the population which was stupid, now a bigger percentage can do the easier Vet trials and DLC dungeons while the new trials are still very hard for most players, so there is still plenty of hard content in the game, just do them on HM

Turelus · May 2018

Uviryth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

What do you propose as alternative for a horizontal progression? Armor that becomes obsolete every three months like other mmo`s do?

Or just don't have progression. Guild Wars 1 was fine with hitting cap, getting gear and skills and just enjoying PvP or group content.
Change the meta up with balance, but we don't have to have more power every update to feel like we're progressing. It's also easier to balance.

GuildWars1 sucked, hard, if you wheren`t into insta-PvP
The only reason people played it was for its whimsicle characters and graphics and the fact that there was no other Softcore-Asiagame at the time.
And even those who played it only played it casually on the side, while gearing up and leveling in their main-mmo. You know, the ones with progressionsystems.

I played it full time as PvE and PvP as did all those I played with.
ESO also releases content much faster than GW1 so there would be new things to do. What I am saying though is you don't NEED a system where you get stronger every update to enjoy new content as long as there is new content to play and hard things to work towards.
ESO also shakes up the meta often enough that progression isn't needed to avoid stagnation.

Qbiken · May 2018

Dungeons are mindlessly easy now- they already were- but now even the latest dungeons, scale and fang , hard modes- well designed bosses, can be burned ,skipping the actually well designed mechanics.

Or maybe it is because you´ve done those dungeons 200 times already? I remember doing vFH and vBF a few months ago. Was very challenging at release. Now I breeze through them like they´re any normal dungeon. The better you understand the game and its mechanics, the better (and easier) you´ll find it to be. With or without sitting at CP-cap.

vMA- once the measure of solo play- is now essentially as normal mode was a year and half ago

Same thing here, vMA isn´t exactly new content. "Most people" (figure of speech) are quite comfortable with doing vMA. And you can even disable all your CP and do vMA and get decent scores as well.

Questing is just running from arrow to arrow and ending with a 2 hit thumping of a low health "boss".

Questing isn´t end-game content, it´s not supposed to be "challenging". All content doesn´t have to be endgame hardmode...

While I´m not advocating for a removal of CP, I´m ok with not adding more for each update.

The champion system is the root cause of all the power creep and all of the terrible class skill nerfs.

If you think CP caused power-creep, it´s nothing compared to what the new features with jewellery-crafting has added to the game (including the new jewellery traits as well). Wait a few months when most people have finished their trait-research and gathered enough material to craft their jewellery and you´ll wish that ZOS had added more CP instead of jewellery crafting.

Uviryth · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

What I am saying though is you don't NEED a system where you get stronger every update to enjoy new content as long as there is new content to play and hard things to work towards.
ESO also shakes up the meta often enough that progression isn't needed to avoid stagnation.

We just have to agree to disagree here then.
I wouldnt play a mmo just for the giggles, I want my Avatar to become stronger while playing. Thats the main (not sole though) feature of mmo`s for me.
Otherwise I would play one of the dozens of singpleplayergames with actual good story and graphics.

I see your point though. But I´m 110% sure the game would die out (or shrink to fansonly-level) if you removed CP without some kind of compensation.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2018

Digiman wrote: »

I like the system, it makes progression more satisfying, IF YOUR HAVE AN EASY TIME YOU PICKED THE WRONG DUNGEON.

But I am guessing most of the comments supporting the OP are from premaders and haven't pugged.

Now there is difficulty for you.

Do you really feel any progression when you add that sweet 0,3% to DoT damage mitigation every once in a while?

I'd be for a perk system instead of current cp. Many mentionend non-combat perks. I think few, very well thought out combat perks that tend to be in an "either/or" style, mainly to push diversity, wouldn't be all that bad as well.

Progression can have multiple facets. But honestly, "progression" in eso is wishi washi to begin with, thanks to battle leveling - Although I see why battle leveling is wanted.

And just a reminder, if it weren't for CP, they didn't need to suck the power out of skills in the first place. Balancing PvE should be the easiest thing to do if they get rid of cp power increase. After all it's always the same pattern, just adjust the numbers. But balancing PvE for high end players, for freshlings, CP PvP and no CP PvP all simutaniously is bound to fail.

Turelus · May 2018

Uviryth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

What I am saying though is you don't NEED a system where you get stronger every update to enjoy new content as long as there is new content to play and hard things to work towards.
ESO also shakes up the meta often enough that progression isn't needed to avoid stagnation.

We just have to agree to disagree here then.
I wouldnt play a mmo just for the giggles, I want my Avatar to become stronger while playing. Thats the main (not sole though) feature of mmo`s for me.
Otherwise I would play one of the dozens of singpleplayergames with actual good story and graphics.

I see your point though. But I´m 110% sure the game would die out (or shrink to fansonly-level) if you removed CP without some kind of compensation.

Then make CP a system like SWTOR's Legacy system. Helpful unlocks which are not combat stats, or make the system scale from achievements making people more inclined to do them to "progress".

Power can stay flat if there is enough combat and new challenges. ESO is about going anywhere and doing anything now a zone/dungeons progression system so it doesn't need increasing stats any more. The content doesn't go up in power so why are we still doing so?

Ojustaboo · May 2018

As long as theirs another way of getting the gathering cp bit (cuts gathering down to 1 hit) , I don't mind if it'a abolished.

I agree some people struggle with content whereas others like myself find it stupidly easy.

I shouldn't have to unselect my CP or remove my armour to make the game more challenging, the games scaling should be intelligent enough to say, here's a player with max usable CP, so we presume they also have decent gear, we will scale content to match.

Personally I spend most of my time doing PVE (but do enjoy PvP), I'm not really into trials, the trouble is, that doesn't leave much challenging content at all.

For example I soloed all the group dungeons in Crag with my newly created warden, sure there is one boss I haven't managed to kill (cant remember which dungeon) but I probably could if I kept trying or failing that, I guarantee I could do it if just one other person helped me.

I also haven't completed vma yet, but did literally fly through it in normal mode with my warden, when I wasn't sure how to play the class, and I could kill most things before the mechanics had time to kick in.

Before anyone asks, while I have decent crafted gear (no dropped set stuff), I'm not a great player by any means, my dps is no where near good enough to take part in my guilds trials, that being the case, surely this content should be harder.

Sure it can be argued that I have a lot to do still, but I don't find trials very interesting or battlegrounds. II'm not into 4x4x4 PvP I like open world PvP.

And yes at some point I want to complete VMA, but I don't want that to be my only challenge.

I'm not saying raise content so new players struggle, I'm saying have some sort of compromise, maybe people with different amount of CP get put in different dungeon instances?

Part of the problem is, the way it is now, a new player (or existing player with a new class) can get to level 50 (even if this sort of game is totally new to them and parts of it takes them a few tries) without ever having to have any real clue as to how their class actually works.

Then they wonder why when they try to group with people, many (I wouldn't but I understand why people do) kick them etc as they simply haven't a clue about the basics

Sure in an ideal world, people would take the time to teach them, but it's not really fair to expect someone wanting to do a quick run through whatever, to then have to suddenly act as a mentor, because the game hasn't prepared them for it.

Personally, while One Tamriel has its good points, I wish there were some areas of the PVE game (as in overland, not just dungeons etc) that was a challenge for those of us that enjoy that sort of thing.

While I appreciate that from what i read, although I used to love the old Crag, apparently most people didn't go there, there has to be a way to give us an option on porting or entering another area, sure it's another screen that some people may say is a little immersion breaking (cant be as bad as the adverts we are now getting for every character) , but a simple option along the lines of "do you want this area to scale to your CP yes/no" would keep us all happy?

devan0216 · May 2018

I dunno- I'm pretty pleased with the progression myself. I'm only mid 300s CP now, but I really like that overland content isn't a struggle. I personally don't want every encounter to be stressful, but then I'd rather do much fewer battles when picking my flowers, etc. Yet another division in the population's play styles...

Uviryth · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Then make CP a system like SWTOR's Legacy system. Helpful unlocks which are not combat stats, or make the system scale from achievements making people more inclined to do them to "progress".

Power can stay flat if there is enough combat and new challenges. ESO is about going anywhere and doing anything now a zone/dungeons progression system so it doesn't need increasing stats any more. The content doesn't go up in power so why are we still doing so?

Funny you mention my main mmo

Legacy is just a fluffpiece. No one really actively works towards it. Plus its one of the prime sources of removing credits from the economy in the game.

The true SW-ToR is the Conquestsystem, which is just a classic gearbased progressionsystem (meaning your gear becomes better the more you play. It becomes better faster if you do more difficult content).

Plus ToR also raises the levelcap every addon, rendering the gear obsolete.

Plus, its a perfect example. Two expansions ago there was a very easy way to max out your gear after like three weeks. After that all the players quit, eventhough there was so much fluff to do. It almost killed the game.

Turelus · May 2018

Uviryth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Then make CP a system like SWTOR's Legacy system. Helpful unlocks which are not combat stats, or make the system scale from achievements making people more inclined to do them to "progress".

Power can stay flat if there is enough combat and new challenges. ESO is about going anywhere and doing anything now a zone/dungeons progression system so it doesn't need increasing stats any more. The content doesn't go up in power so why are we still doing so?

Funny you mention my main mmo

Legacy is just a fluffpiece. No one really actively works towards it. Plus its one of the prime sources of removing credits from the economy in the game.

The true SW-ToR is the Conquestsystem, which is just a classic gearbased progressionsystem (meaning your gear becomes better the more you play. It becomes better faster if you do more difficult content).

Plus ToR also raises the levelcap every addon, rendering the gear obsolete.

Plus, its a perfect example. Two expansions ago there was a very easy way to max out your gear after like three weeks. After that all the players quit, eventhough there was so much fluff to do. It almost killed the game.

Sure I understand the progression there but I mean only the legacy system in regards to that it's a system which has levels and unlocks to work towards without directly increasing power.

SWTOR gear progression also works because content is power gated, ESO doesn't do that any more past CP300 meaning our characters continue to get stronger but the content doesn't need that power.
We see nerfs to things, reductions in CP power etc. to keep the power level where they want whilst keeping a system to give that power back.
We might as well balance at level 50 as the max level of power and make CP just ranks you unlock to show how high your level is, because as soon as we hit CP 1500 they're just going to nerf everything again back to where we are now but make it feel like we're progressing.

MakoFore · May 2018

the CP system is a constant paradox that is never going to be balanced- because u are adding more beans to the one end of the scale every patch. its inevitable that players outscale content- and even each other. today in cyrodil i got 1 shot by a night blade who had 3 sets active- why? yes because of the aforementioned CP- but also because they had so many sets accessed- i havent been hit that hard since the good ol tremor,widow , viper days- and those were the dark days of pvp imo. (please assume i am a competent and experienced player here - I'm not the greatest - but I'm not a wimp in pvp either. Unless I'm totally off guard- i can almost always recover and counter play some- not this time)

as an alternative to CP- which equals more power- more power - and gear sets that are just power disguised in different animated forms- id like there to be CP skills that unlock different skills and abilities- similar to the way the shout and skill systems worked in skyrim. perhaps with CP- you unlock points you allocate into different ability pools- that allow-
for example
- the tuning of skills with CP- so that the CP system is tied into the skills system- allowing for how much variance you can make funnel health a damage ability - (and adding CP - makes it a damage +healing ability)
- adjust the amount of skills you can have on bar - or
- the amount of synergies or types of synergies you send out to allies- allowing you to branch them to your build.
- adjust the speed of your abilities firing from press to contact
- boost the range of your abilities
- whether your build does focused damage or caps at a certain amount of enemies you can hit with your AOE
- the amount of allies you can heal at once- whether you want concentrated healing or broad healing.

of course my suggestions are flawed- theyre just a thought not a theory or a plan- but i do think it at least offers the possibility of something else other than more more more. and i for one- would love to hear and discuss ideas here- so that we can come up with something better- because the CP system - i think alot of end gamers will agree- is broken- and secondly ZOS dont know what to do with it.

I'll just leave a final note- something that myself and many other end gamers and theory crafters- and yes- gamer nerds have discussed- is.......

that synergies NEED to be a bigger part of gameplay- and somehow- to become a focus of the games combat pvp and pve play. SYNERGIES are fantastic = They promote teamwork, co-ordination , and communication and timing- over raw power of builds and sets- they pay off and are a rewarding gameplay element. Its something that this game has that other games don't- and it is a great feature- something they should explore further. Not just pressing of X- but a call and response type of gameplay- so that i use a skill- a teammate presses synergy to amplify the skill and I cast again- this time the skill is even stronger. the counter is the other team must bash or time THEIR own synergy to counter. perhaps a call-response system - combined with a rhythm counter- or a proc counter such as assassins will- that worked as a teamwork type mechanic.
I feel if explored this would make this games team combat, pve and pvp systems really really rewarding.

anyway- thanks for reading guys- and for keeping things civil.

Feanor · May 2018

The CP system would be much more palatable if it weren’t a „you can have everything at the same time“ buff menu. If you’d have to make choices that would add a layer to building your character and actually make it interesting. But right now you just can have everything with no downsides.