Non-NB Invisibility Skill

FoolishOptimist · May 2018

I'd like to open a discussion on the addition of a non-class specific invisibility skill. Invisibility has been a castable spell in each Elder Scrolls instalment via high level Illusion; while I appreciate that Nightblades are the class dedicated to Illusion magic, this ability should be available to all classes via a lore-appropriate medium. I will take into consideration effects on both PvE and PvP, and maintaining respect to the 'eliteness' of Nightblade Cloaking.

Why I'd like this skill

On my non-NB characters, I don't want to be bound to using invisibility pots- they cannot be spammed as required during PvE and PvP content.
Thieving and DB content is more enjoyable on a NB than on other classes, thanks to cloak.
Sneaking past trash mobs while completing overland content.
Opens up class versatility and viability of escape routes and stealth builds in PvP.

My interpretation of the skill
Ideally I'd like to see this skill locked behind a high level active ability in any of the following suitable Skill Lines.

Vampire - Vampire passives already support mobility in stealth. Elder Scrolls have portrayed vampires, lore-wise, as being masters of illusion.
Psijic - Though Psijics prefer Mysticism spells, they are still considered elite mages.
Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild - Fits thematically, would be nice to have an active ability to provide a benefit to reaching a high rank (I'm willing to consume Invisi Pots to get this).

Nightblades are the 'shadow assassin' class, so it makes sense their cloak ability critically empowers their sneak attack (Summerset's removal of 'dark cloak' providing invisiblity). The direction I'd like to take this skill, is away from the 'assassination' theme and apply more of an Illusion+Restoration / Illusion+Alteration feel.

Base: [Magicka] Caster becomes invisible for 2.5 seconds.
Morph 1: [Magicka] Caster becomes invisible for 2.5 seconds. Removes 1 negative effect.
Morph 2: [Stamina] Caster becomes invisible for 2.5 seconds. Converts to a stamina ability. [Also, possibly: Caster gains Minor Expedition for duration, increasing movement speed by 10%).

Considerations for PvP
While I'm no elite PvPer, I do spend a fair bit of time in Cyrodil (dying, mind you, but having fun nonetheless). We've all been ganked, it's a part of the combat system and I'm not one to take it personally or let it frustrate me. I usually laugh it off and plan an alternative path. The increase in stealth-viability for non-NBs will make sneak attacks a lot more thrilling; in my mind, it will open up offensive and defensive strategy mechanics, with increased pressure to utilise underused skills such as revealing flare and radiant mage light. If the skill is locked behind advanced guild content, it's less likely that casual players will be able to pop in and greatly disrupt mechanics. I feel Vampirism in PvP is fairly balanced currently, so this addition may disrupt that? What are your thoughts?

I'd like this to be a discussion, so if you don't agree, please take the time to write a response outlining why.

HonestGabe · May 2018

I disagree, mainly because it would eliminate nightblades effectiveness if every class could do the same thing nightblades are specialized for. I'm strongly against homogenizing the classes.

ak_pvp · May 2018

A year ago, I would have said no. Now, I agree. So damn much has been homogenized yet the NB keeps its cool stuff. Every class can tank, every class can heal, every class has access to speed, or a reflect, a spammable, many classes have unblockable CCs, with a hard CC next patch, strong dots, etc.

The only invis is a single tick on a potion, so if its broken, 45s without, and sacrifice of other effects.

It'd allow everyone to have a staple ES and RPG ability without having to play NB.

I would change how invisibility works though, currently way too strong since it stops dots and forces misses on attacks.

FoolishOptimist · May 2018

HonestGabe wrote: »

I disagree, mainly because it would eliminate nightblades effectiveness if every class could do the same thing nightblades are specialized for. I'm strongly against homogenizing the classes.

Current Nightblade skills that synergise well with Cloak, in relation to stealth:

Master Assassin Passive (Rank 2)
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while while you are Sneaking or invisible by 10%.
Increases the duration of stun from Sneak by 100%.
Veiled Strike/Surprise Attack
Slash an enemy, dealing 822 Magic Damage.
Attacking with Veiled Strike while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy and sets them Off Balance for 4 seconds.
Concealed Weapon (In addition to the above)
While slotted, your Movement Speed while stealthed or invisible is increased.
Dark Veil (Rank 2)
Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%.

The addition of an invisibility spell would not detract from the effectiveness of Nightblade cloaking, as their class passives best support it.

MercTheMage · May 2018

yes, this is exactly what we need in pvp. everyone playing a ganker build....

Luckylancer · May 2018

Yeah! They should remove all classes, recalculate dmg to make hybrids viable. I want to spam sorc shields while nb invis so I wont die after using wrecking blow from invis.

Narvuntien · May 2018

I am pretty sure one of the vampire ultimates gives stealth, the one no one uses.

Colecovision · May 2018

Okay, but it comes with being squishy and not just while slotted. Once you get access at all, even if you never add a skill point, you're squishy.

Actually, if there are invisibility pots for everyone, why are there no pots for hurricane? or that fire turtle shield that dks have? I want those.

#buffnb

FoolishOptimist · May 2018

Colecovision wrote: »

Okay, but it comes with being squishy and not just while slotted. Once you get access at all, even if you never add a skill point, you're squishy.

Actually, if there are invisibility pots for everyone, why are there no pots for hurricane? or that fire turtle shield that dks have? I want those.

#buffnb

Hurricane = Major Ward + Major Resolve + Minor Expedition. All of these components are available in potions, albeit not as a combinable solution, probably because every class has access to Major Resolve/Expedition as either a class skill, an armour skill (heavy) or a guild skill (mage).

Narvuntien wrote: »

I am pretty sure one of the vampire ultimates gives stealth, the one no one uses.

This does provide invisibility, as does a synergy from NB's Shadow Ultimate. The problem with synergies and ultimates, is that they are not readily available at any given stage. I can't just bust out an ultimate every time I fail pickpocketing while farming for furniture designs (I'd also prefer not to kill the mark until i'm done with the contents of their pockets).

Silver_Strider · May 2018

I was fully prepared for an invisibility to be added in TG or DB back before those skill lines were revealed.

I mean they could add a smoke bomb like ability that doesn't necessarily make you invisible but just blinds NPCs (probably be useless in PvP though, which would be fine IMO).

FoolishOptimist · May 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I was fully prepared for an invisibility to be added in TG or DB back before those skill lines were revealed.

I mean they could add a smoke bomb like ability that doesn't necessarily make you invisible but just blinds NPCs (probably be useless in PvP though, which would be fine IMO).

I wouldn't be mad about this; It's lateral thinking that would keep both PvP and PvE worlds stabilised.

Betsararie · May 2018

Just what we need to solve the Cloak problem. Give everyone cloak.

Qwazzy · May 2018

Take cloak out of the game.

aeowulf · May 2018

Cloak is only useful on PVP & overland questing (and that's only if you have low DPS and want to skip killings), so it's somewhat limited. I think NB get invis at least in part because they don't get shields, seems like a fair swap but ultimtely depends if you play PVP or PVE. Would you be willing to give up your shields for invis? If you play PVE I imagine the answer would more likely be yes, and less clear cut if you PVP.

I actually have no issues with any class getting something another has, as long as there's balance. All classes should be as comparable as possible in all roles, but with tons of class flavour. I'd actually like to see the way classes/skills reworked, more along the lines of you choose your three skill trees, and your class name is determined by the three selected. A little more comparable to the single player Elder Scrolls games. That way, all these forum class balance threads will go.

Bobby_V_Rockit · May 2018

Put cloak in fighters guild skill line, or make camoflaged hunter make you invisible...

Turelus · May 2018

I wouldn't be against this. I would want to see it work in a different way in some regard though, the same way other class abilities which got moved to global ones are variants.

Sru · May 2018

HonestGabe wrote: »

I disagree, mainly because it would eliminate nightblades effectiveness if every class could do the same thing nightblades are specialized for. I'm strongly against homogenizing the classes.

Totally agree here - even look at Templars, DKs etc. ; in all other MMO's you have healers/tanks/roles that mean something and a game design that makes them necessary. ZOS has determined that unique features of all classes will be eradicated and everyone can play everything. One of the last remaining "unique" aspects of a DK tank, chains, now becomes a tool everyone has.

The logical end point is to open all classes skill lines to all other classes - why else would you give a unique skill to one lot but then give the same skill to someone else. Then, remove all classes completely and make one. Oh, also all races should share the same attributes if we are looking to level the playing field. I am snowflake-insulted that my Imperial can't swim as fast as the Argonian - not fair ZOS ...

ok .. off my soapbox.

But, seriously, this move to remove roles in ESO is worse than dumbing down, it removes a core tenant of any MMO to the detriment of the gamer.

BaneOfBattler · May 2018

I main a templar oh yea i so love this i could spam someone to death while invis and jabbing my way in the combat and not being even seen!!!11!1 id love this !11!11

themaddaedra · May 2018

Sure cool idea. As long as you give NBs wings, sorc shields, templar purifies, then you remove classes, delete the word diversity from ESO literature, let planemeld strike upon us and merge Nirn into Oblivion. Then we can all quit the game in peace.

No more homogenizing threads pls.

ak_pvp wrote: »

A year ago, I would have said no. Now, I agree. So damn much has been homogenized yet the NB keeps its cool stuff. Every class can tank, every class can heal, every class has access to speed, or a reflect, a spammable, many classes have unblockable CCs, with a hard CC next patch, strong dots, etc

Being able to play different roles and being able to play other class specialties are way different things.

Avran_Sylt · May 2018

I raise you this:

Introduce a new kind of player state: 'Chameleon'

Does pretty much the same thing as cloak, but is the 'bastardized' version of the ability.

Instead of turning the player invisible, it makes the player nearly transparent (players with a good eye can still track your movements, but this does break tab targeting and grants all stealth benefits).

It does not suppress DoTs, but players can sprint while under the effects of chameleon. Chameleon is broken by Direct AoE Damage or any standard stealth breaking function.

Mechanically, this adds in the LoS breaking features and access to sets that perform functions while in stealth.

I would do this to the Fighter's Guild skill line.

Add: Fighter's guild skill cost reduction to 'Circle of Perseverance' (a renaming of Circle of Preservation)
Remove: Fighter's Guild skill cost reduction from 'Evil Hunter'
Move: Minor Berserk from Camouflaged Hunter to 'Evil Hunter' and rename to 'Patient Hunter'
Add: 5s Chameleon to Camouflaged Hunter and remove Stealth Detection.

aeowulf · May 2018

Sru wrote: »

HonestGabe wrote: »

I disagree, mainly because it would eliminate nightblades effectiveness if every class could do the same thing nightblades are specialized for. I'm strongly against homogenizing the classes.

Totally agree here - even look at Templars, DKs etc. ; in all other MMO's you have healers/tanks/roles that mean something and a game design that makes them necessary. ZOS has determined that unique features of all classes will be eradicated and everyone can play everything. One of the last remaining "unique" aspects of a DK tank, chains, now becomes a tool everyone has.

The logical end point is to open all classes skill lines to all other classes - why else would you give a unique skill to one lot but then give the same skill to someone else. Then, remove all classes completely and make one. Oh, also all races should share the same attributes if we are looking to level the playing field. I am snowflake-insulted that my Imperial can't swim as fast as the Argonian - not fair ZOS ...

ok .. off my soapbox.

But, seriously, this move to remove roles in ESO is worse than dumbing down, it removes a core tenant of any MMO to the detriment of the gamer.

I think ZOS want all classes to be able to perform all roles adequately. Going invis is not a role, nor is chains. As roles definitions are more clear cut in PVE, I think they have looked at feedback. I've not once seen a thread where the TL;DR was 'you need invis to be good DPS'

Chains is a bit different though, PVE tanking got to a point where a tank was expected to chain in mobs. They were also expected to AE root. There have been quite a few threads over the last year or two asking 'what makes a good tank' - crowd control features on that list every single time. Where only some classes have access to the skills percieved to be needed, it needs looking at. ZOS left it too long & we've had a boring year of almost only DK & warden tanks. That's really not diversity. It's also been made worse by some DK's brainwashing 'You can't tank well unless you have chains and root'. This is why we've also seen Time Stop. For example pre Morrowind I was often asked to chain in mobs, on my NB tank...

Core requirements to be good at any role should be available to all, playstyle types are class flavour, and should should not. NB have a defined 'ganker' playstyle in PVP, maybe the thread should be more about other classes needing their own defining styles.

That said, sneak (which is essentially a dumbed down invis for all) could be improved through tweaking underused skills. For example, maybe turning camoflaged hunter into a skill that triggers 'instant sneak' instead.

Short version, I agree to a point. But roles should be as balanced as possible between the classes, just not at the expense of class diversity. Unfortunately I fear the easy option for balance has been chosen, which is to make everything the same.

Vizier · May 2018

Play a NB. By your logic we just shouldn't have classes because all skills have been traditionally available to all players in TES games. Not just no but **ll NO should "cloak" be available to All classes. Can you even imagine a streaking cloaking Mage? Holy ****. Make some invis pots or play a NB.

ak_pvp · May 2018

Vizier wrote: »

Play a NB. By your logic we just shouldn't have classes because all skills have been traditionally available to all players in TES games. Not just no but **ll NO should "cloak" be available to All classes. Can you even imagine a streaking cloaking Mage? Holy ****. Make some invis pots or play a NB.

OK, remove block and chains and unblockable CCs from all non DKs, remove all burst heals and purges from all non templars. *** shitblades want everything. Also, go try invis pots on a different class, see how long you last.

Xvorg · May 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I raise you this:

Introduce a new kind of player state: 'Chameleon'

Does pretty much the same thing as cloak, but is the 'bastardized' version of the ability.

Instead of turning the player invisible, it makes the player nearly transparent (players with a good eye can still track your movements, but this does break tab targeting and grants all stealth benefits).

It does not suppress DoTs, but players can sprint while under the effects of chameleon. Chameleon is broken by Direct AoE Damage or any standard stealth breaking function.

Mechanically, this adds in the LoS breaking features and access to sets that perform functions while in stealth.

I would do this to the Fighter's Guild skill line.

Add: Fighter's guild skill cost reduction to 'Circle of Perseverance' (a renaming of Circle of Preservation)
Remove: Fighter's Guild skill cost reduction from 'Evil Hunter'
Move: Minor Berserk from Camouflaged Hunter to 'Evil Hunter' and rename to 'Patient Hunter'
Add: 5s Chameleon to Camouflaged Hunter and remove Stealth Detection.

Great spell in Morrowind

THEDKEXPERIENCE · May 2018

I’m still wondering why chugging a potion isn’t a viable option?

I don’t set foot in Cyrodiil without 2 potions at the ready. My “traveling potion” which is always what I have equipped when outside of combat. It’s invisibility + speed. Of course it drops when I attack something but it should. Luckily I also have my immovable potion at the ready to get back all my resources and to keep you pesky rooters at bay.

Why someone would enter Cyrodiil without these, or something similar, is baffling.

If you’re dying a lot the first place to look at is your potion selection. Surviving in Cyrodiil is much more about being Batman than Superman. Use your utility belt people!

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

A year ago, I would have said no. Now, I agree. So damn much has been homogenized yet the NB keeps its cool stuff. Every class can tank, every class can heal, every class has access to speed, or a reflect, a spammable, many classes have unblockable CCs, with a hard CC next patch, strong dots, etc.

The only invis is a single tick on a potion, so if its broken, 45s without, and sacrifice of other effects.

It'd allow everyone to have a staple ES and RPG ability without having to play NB.

I would change how invisibility works though, currently way too strong since it stops dots and forces misses on attacks.

I agree. This is one of the few things that doesn't get homogenized and its a huge one. I'm perfectly happy with Nightblades being superior at Cloak and being able to use it to crank up damage numbers, activate a sneak attack cc, etc. That's what they're partly built to do. Simultaneously the Tank version of nightblade gets a self heal from the Shadow line now which replaces cloak. They are trying to make it so that all basic builds are functional on all 5 classes (tank, healer, dd). When it comes to stealthy content though, nothing comes close to the Nightblade-Vampire-Khajiit and unfortunately in the pve realm there have been many DLC related to stealth, giving great favor to the Nightblade class. This in and of itself is fine but I do think given the design goals it is a bit strange stealth can't be offered to others. Are there huge balance concerns around this? Hell yeah there are balance concerns, but there's already problems with that in the game.

Avran_Sylt · May 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I raise you this:

Introduce a new kind of player state: 'Chameleon'

Does pretty much the same thing as cloak, but is the 'bastardized' version of the ability.

Instead of turning the player invisible, it makes the player nearly transparent (players with a good eye can still track your movements, but this does break tab targeting and grants all stealth benefits).

It does not suppress DoTs, but players can sprint while under the effects of chameleon. Chameleon is broken by Direct AoE Damage or any standard stealth breaking function.

Mechanically, this adds in the LoS breaking features and access to sets that perform functions while in stealth.

I would do this to the Fighter's Guild skill line.

Add: Fighter's guild skill cost reduction to 'Circle of Perseverance' (a renaming of Circle of Preservation)
Remove: Fighter's Guild skill cost reduction from 'Evil Hunter'
Move: Minor Berserk from Camouflaged Hunter to 'Evil Hunter' and rename to 'Patient Hunter'
Add: 5s Chameleon to Camouflaged Hunter and remove Stealth Detection.

Great spell in Morrowind

@Xvorg

Yup. Only reason that I don't want it to be magicka is that+ rolldodge on all classes would be broken. Imagine a 'Stamblade' dragonknight able to mesh roll-dodge with a pseudo-dodge split amongst two resource pools. Bonus points if they're argonian and running pot cooldown glyphs.

Xvorg · May 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I raise you this:

Introduce a new kind of player state: 'Chameleon'

Does pretty much the same thing as cloak, but is the 'bastardized' version of the ability.

Instead of turning the player invisible, it makes the player nearly transparent (players with a good eye can still track your movements, but this does break tab targeting and grants all stealth benefits).

It does not suppress DoTs, but players can sprint while under the effects of chameleon. Chameleon is broken by Direct AoE Damage or any standard stealth breaking function.

Mechanically, this adds in the LoS breaking features and access to sets that perform functions while in stealth.

I would do this to the Fighter's Guild skill line.

Add: Fighter's guild skill cost reduction to 'Circle of Perseverance' (a renaming of Circle of Preservation)
Remove: Fighter's Guild skill cost reduction from 'Evil Hunter'
Move: Minor Berserk from Camouflaged Hunter to 'Evil Hunter' and rename to 'Patient Hunter'
Add: 5s Chameleon to Camouflaged Hunter and remove Stealth Detection.

Great spell in Morrowind

@Xvorg

Yup. Only reason that I don't want it to be magicka is that+ rolldodge on all classes would be broken. Imagine a 'Stamblade' dragonknight able to mesh roll-dodge with a pseudo-dodge split amongst two resource pools. Bonus points if they're argonian and running pot cooldown glyphs.

What about a health cost? I think it's quite interesting

Skullstachio · May 2018

@FoolishOptimist

In regard to this paragraph below.

"Vampire - Vampire passives already support mobility in stealth. Elder Scrolls have portrayed vampires, lore-wise, as being masters of illusion."

You might be interested in an idea that I am currently working on. (But you & everyone else may have to wait before they can provide the appropriate criticism on it.)

Avran_Sylt · May 2018

@Xvorg

Great, now those uber tanks have decent escape mechanism in addition to all their healing buffs (Templar/Warden).

Nah, it's gotta either gimp you in terms of mobility (such that a heavy reliance will cause you to stand still), or add a bunch of weaknesses (like NB's general lack of burst heals).

I could see true invisibility being added to Vamps (given proper gimping effects while used or even passively).

But even chameleon needs to share the same pool as it's effective counterpart.

I will admit that I have not put as much thought into this as I probably should, but my guts doesn't like easily paired invisibility with all classes (since I main NB and am quite aware of how powerful invisibility is)

bloodthirstyvampire · May 2018

Oh ok deal, but while your at it throw us nightblades shield stacking an combat pets