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If you play the Dragon Knight class and hoped for better changes in Summerset... Well abandon ship.
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Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that
I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Yes they are best as tanking in PVE not PVP I would ranther have a tanky stam warden over a tanky Stam DK. Stam Wardens just provide so much more !! A troll tank PVP is freakin boring a role that you will find only a few p;ayers that stick with that role.. A true troll tank are just laughed at in most groups they are just left alone until everyone in the group dies ..... The stam DK was the brawler role and many of us here are from that mold..Most true stam DKs do not want to troll tank and we have played this class for years we want our brawler class back or atleast relevant.... How would a stam sorc feel if they were regulated to be a tank that is not really that effective in PVP .... PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables3 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
on actual reality though shimmering offers much greater protection since it blocks 3 separate projectiles, saves you a lot of time, single GCD versus 3 separate hits. while igneous , lets be honest. Breaks with a single light attack or spammable. It will be even weaker with fragmented shields, but the damage shield was never the reason for using this ability anyways. So who cares.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 18, 2018 3:55PM1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Yes, PvE tanking. Dk is BiS at that. As for PvP tanking goes, a tank is as valueable as the utility he/she offers. warden tanks, or any warden really, can offer the utility of DK standart(maj defile) in the form of a spammable aoe.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 18, 2018 3:58PM1 -
So basically, I should just abandon my main stamDK until (hopefully) the next patch, and roll either a stam warden (Brawler) or magsorc (overall winner)?
Or just find another MMO, since my favored class has been destroyed.3 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TheNorthernDragon wrote: »So basically, I should just abandon my main stamDK until (hopefully) the next patch, and roll either a stam warden (Brawler) or magsorc (overall winner)?
Or just find another MMO, since my favored class has been destroyed.
MagDK is also pretty good this patch. Just make sure you're an argonian if you plan to play the traditional SnB one.
For double staff, dunmer rules though.2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.
unless you're basically permablocking, minor protection comes ahead obviously. Not to mention minor protection works against aoes and dots, even bleeds. Meanwhile block mitigation obviously only works on stuff you block. You're not blocking dots or aoes.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 18, 2018 5:09PM3 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.
I think the formulas are right, it’s just the math is a bit funky.
Going from blocking 50% dmg to 55% dmg is going to see a 10% difference between the two... of you convert it into an additive number (5%) you should do the same with minor prot (which would become 4%). When you factor in the 1h/s the blocking passive becomes stronger while the minor protection becomes less of a factor.
If you are in 1h/s you’re also going to get extra blocking against projectiles.
When the dmg numbers affecting you are small due to block, that 4K igneous shield becomes significantly more impactful. Shimmering shield is a stronger skill overall, but it won’t save you when You turtle up... its meant to save you while you’re kiting. But tbh if you’re kiting you’ll be LOSing most projectiles anyway. When we factor in the prevalence of defile, using a lot of motivation and dmg shields is really the best strategy for defense.
I’d challenge anyone who thinks stamden is better at tanking than Stam DK to run the same gear and same defensive CP on both classes and experience it for themselves. In my experience, the DK clearly comes out on top.
Edit: but the warden has more burst, more mobility, and more group utility and is the better class over all.Edited by Thogard on May 18, 2018 5:22PMPC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp1 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Quite sure wrobel stated blocking passives & sets have their total added after resistance/effects are done. Which is why footmans was later scrapped at being the best set for tanks.
So let's say resistances mitigate the damage to 1k & no other effects were on you so it would be 10% of 1k. Effects like minor protection do not get that as they take priority over resistances (this was mentioned in an ESO live way back when I believe IC came out or before it).不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Quite sure wrobel stated blocking passives & sets have their total added after resistance/effects are done. Which is why footmans was later scrapped at being the best set for tanks.
So let's say resistances mitigate the damage to 1k & no other effects were on you so it would be 10% of 1k. Effects like minor protection do not get that as they take priority over resistances (this was mentioned in an ESO live way back when I believe IC came out or before it).
I think they nerfed it tho. That was back when footmN was BIS for tankingPC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »TheNorthernDragon wrote: »So basically, I should just abandon my main stamDK until (hopefully) the next patch, and roll either a stam warden (Brawler) or magsorc (overall winner)?
Or just find another MMO, since my favored class has been destroyed.
MagDK is also pretty good this patch. Just make sure you're an argonian if you plan to play the traditional SnB one.
For double staff, dunmer rules though.
I want to play double staff! Can’t wait!0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »TheNorthernDragon wrote: »So basically, I should just abandon my main stamDK until (hopefully) the next patch, and roll either a stam warden (Brawler) or magsorc (overall winner)?
Or just find another MMO, since my favored class has been destroyed.
MagDK is also pretty good this patch. Just make sure you're an argonian if you plan to play the traditional SnB one.
For double staff, dunmer rules though.
I want to play double staff! Can’t wait!
You already can @DDuke has an awesome build for double staff that works very well4 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.
It was explained to me by Asayre that dmg percents reduce the dmg kinda first, then shield reduces the dmg by a flat value, then your resists reduce that amount).
Here is the formula from the recent thread we have for no shield just mitigation:
MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100
Here is the formula for with a shield:
Mitigation = (1-(maim/CP/protection % mit)/100)-shield)*(1-(block pass1)/100))*(1-(block pass 2)/100)*(1-(block pass 3)/100)*(1-(resistance/662)/100)*(1-(base block)/100)
But once you add a shield, armor/block always happens after the shield reduces the dmg. Otherwise its multiplied all together.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.
It was explained to me by Asayre that dmg percents reduce the dmg kinda first, then shield reduces the dmg by a flat value, then your resists reduce that amount).
Here is the formula from the recent thread we have for no shield just mitigation:
MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100
Here is the formula for with a shield:
Mitigation = (1-(maim/CP/protection % mit)/100)-shield)*(1-(block pass1)/100))*(1-(block pass 2)/100)*(1-(block pass 3)/100)*(1-(resistance/662)/100)*(1-(base block)/100)
But once you add a shield, armor/block always happens after the shield reduces the dmg. Otherwise its multiplied all together.
When you say shield, do you mean damage shield?
In other words, if I have a 7k dmg shield and am getting hit for 2k a second without blocking, if I hold down the block button I’ll still see the dmg shield decrease by 2k a second?PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.
It was explained to me by Asayre that dmg percents reduce the dmg kinda first, then shield reduces the dmg by a flat value, then your resists reduce that amount).
Here is the formula from the recent thread we have for no shield just mitigation:
MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100
Here is the formula for with a shield:
Mitigation = (1-(maim/CP/protection % mit)/100)-shield)*(1-(block pass1)/100))*(1-(block pass 2)/100)*(1-(block pass 3)/100)*(1-(resistance/662)/100)*(1-(base block)/100)
But once you add a shield, armor/block always happens after the shield reduces the dmg. Otherwise its multiplied all together.
When you say shield, do you mean damage shield?
In other words, if I have a 7k dmg shield and am getting hit for 2k a second without blocking, if I hold down the block button I’ll still see the dmg shield decrease by 2k a second?
yea damage shield as in harness mag, bone shield, etc.
it was explained to me that the shield is kinda like a dam holding back water. When the dam break, block/resists are then calculated. So the damage is calculated against the full value of the shield, if the shield holds, your resists/block are not used.
But I never tested exactly which way the calculation operates in this manner or in a way that can answer your specific follow up question; I figured combat is happening so fast why bother.
Edit:
See this is where the shield exist in the equation:
Mitigation = (1-(maim/CP/protection % mit)/100)-shield)* mitigation blah blah blah
It sounds like the shield is subtractive against the dmg value AFTER %dmg reduction sources and exactly as I have described it. But I could be wrong.Edited by Minno on May 18, 2018 10:00PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.
It was explained to me by Asayre that dmg percents reduce the dmg kinda first, then shield reduces the dmg by a flat value, then your resists reduce that amount).
Here is the formula from the recent thread we have for no shield just mitigation:
MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100
Here is the formula for with a shield:
Mitigation = (1-(maim/CP/protection % mit)/100)-shield)*(1-(block pass1)/100))*(1-(block pass 2)/100)*(1-(block pass 3)/100)*(1-(resistance/662)/100)*(1-(base block)/100)
But once you add a shield, armor/block always happens after the shield reduces the dmg. Otherwise its multiplied all together.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that mean that minor protection is not just better, but a lot better than the block more modifiers? Since it is applied first and takes a larger chunk of damage, again, whilst not blocking and including all damage types too. It may end up evening out along the road, but as far as my tired eyes can see, its much stronger.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane
sorry mate you bore the brunt of my fury and you must be one heck of a fast reader lol but it's all good mate, sorry again my temper rarely rises but when it does it's like the DKs eruption.
Defending your class is perfectly valid, I didn't attack you for that I'm just as upset about the coming..... changes to Sorcerer as you are for the DK changes. I feel like DK changes are okay at least in some way, while the Sorc changes won't help me in any way.
Most of the DK changes have the magicka version in mind not the Stam DK.... Like I have said in other posts the Stam DK has be regulated to TANK ROLE the Brawler role has been stolen by the Stam Warden ... Stam Sorc is a better toon atm also, But I hate casting all those dam buffs .... the best role for a DK is a defile tank or some sort.... Every class right now does everything else better except a pure tank build...
So DK has something they are best at. That's better than some other classes.
Nope. Wardens out tank DK by a lot. Better heals, better class defense (wings vs shimmering is not even a question) better innate tankiness, minor protection on frost cloak beats both of DKs defensive passives, better damage too. Just less offstat regen.
Even a templar can be close to as tank as a DK.
There is literally nothing a DK does best. StamDK is bad at everything, and magDK is only average at what it is good at. (Other assets have better mitigation/defense, other classes have better or comparable CC, other classes have better or comparable burst/pressure with less sacrifice to defense.)
Even the "buffs" this patch were either PvE healing or partial reverts of other nerfs. Igneous and fragmented are still worse than before, basically just split up, (crystal blasted) and combustion is good, but still worse than old battle roar. (admittedly warming to the extra Stam) I suppose you have the useless wings and the heal stun.
That’s not exactly true. I think there’s an important distinction to make between healing and tanking. The DK is definitely tankier than the warden. With the exact same gear and same weapon layout, I can survive more burst on my DK than on my Warden.
Even healing aside, a warden has better mitigation.
Block passive = 5% mitigation (10% extra on base 50%) whilst block is up, on blocked attacks only.
Spell resist passive is another 5.31%,but only on spell attacks.
In this case, 8% on everything is better. A DK has minor maim on talons, which is pretty great, albiet situational, (riposte, melee only, magDK only) however if you want to count it, a warden has spikes+chilled chance increase, which applies maim.
Then the mitigation from cheap shimmering whichh is actually worth running, and the frozen armour passive too.
Warden comes out a lot tankier, though its easier for a DK to sustain block.
Your math on block mitigation is incorrect.
I also believe igneous shield is a better dmg shield for tanking than shim shield, but shim shield is better for kiting.
These are the two classes I have the most times Played on, all of which is PvP.
Hmm, I got the mitigation from a gilliam video, these percentage changes are multiplicative of the 50% original, and unless it calculates after the other block passives, it should be similar. Igneous is about a 3/4k shield for 4k in PvP,, less when using fragmented vs 3 projectiles absorbed for 5-700. It does have an arbitrary break point, but most won't reach.
Yea, block is multiplicative with other block passives and your total resistance value converted to a percentage. Altogether, that calculation happens AFTER any percentage based dmg reduction mitigation is taken into effect (and your shield happens before you tally resists).
Wait, resistances? IIRC it doesn't factor into the % damage reduced by iron skin. Just that damage taken = base - resists as a percentage, then reduced by block, not that resists as a percentage. Though I don't know the specific equation, by the videos I have seen, and the tooltip, it is only block multiplier that it affects, especially since block doesn't affect dots, but resist does, so if it affected resistances, then blocking would theoretically affect dots too
If I am right, at best it'd be its 0.50 x 1.2 = 0.60 (from the skill tree) x 1.1, (iron skin) = 0.66, so 6% from the DK block passive. Only on blocked attacks.
Still seems like minor protection comes out ahead, though I now feel like I have messed something up.
It was explained to me by Asayre that dmg percents reduce the dmg kinda first, then shield reduces the dmg by a flat value, then your resists reduce that amount).
Here is the formula from the recent thread we have for no shield just mitigation:
MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100
Here is the formula for with a shield:
Mitigation = (1-(maim/CP/protection % mit)/100)-shield)*(1-(block pass1)/100))*(1-(block pass 2)/100)*(1-(block pass 3)/100)*(1-(resistance/662)/100)*(1-(base block)/100)
But once you add a shield, armor/block always happens after the shield reduces the dmg. Otherwise its multiplied all together.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that mean that minor protection is not just better, but a lot better than the block more modifiers? Since it is applied first and takes a larger chunk of damage, again, whilst not blocking and including all damage types too. It may end up evening out along the road, but as far as my tired eyes can see, its much stronger.
It's still subject to diminishing returns when you start adding things like ironclad/thick skin, vampire low health passives, etc.
So the 8% dmg mitigation accounts for around 2-3% your total mitigation at the end of the line.
But yet, % mitigation is important due to it's priority in the equation. Another note, crit resists, while subject to their own diminishing returns, is calculated before the % mitigation sources (but only if the enemy crits). Another thing to note, is that block and armor share the same side of the mitigation equation but armor is instantly subtracted by penetration. So while you might get closer to 90-98% total mitigation running full buffed resists/block, if the enemy reduces your armor your block/armor calculation will still show a lesser total mitigation but you might see better benefit out of blocking.
You can use the calculator in the dmg mitigation thread to compare block versus minor protection too. Just try to isolate it and then decide which is easier to get for your build. We already know block is crazy strong; it's just free 50% dmg mitigation for pressing the right mouse button.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dk are the best tanks.
Because they are the best to gain ressource while holding block. They can block longer, and for it's where their tankiness come from.
Warden is actually stealing the tank role to dk in PvP, because warden can heal spam instead of blocking longer.1 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Aedaryl
If that's your main reasoning for why DKs are the best tanks i.e "Because they are the best to gain resources while holding block" then that surely isn't a good reason at all.
With the current shield ultimate anyone can gain resources back simply by heavy attacking till they gain more resources back while there natural recovery keeps it going. I'm not sure if a stamplar can dark deal while using shield wall but if it can then that puts it way over the DK class.
Edited by MaxwellC on May 18, 2018 11:40PM不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Aedaryl
If that's your main reasoning for why DKs are the best tanks i.e "Because they are the best to gain resources while holding block" then that surely isn't a good reason at all.
With the current shield ultimate anyone can gain resources back simply by heavy attacking till they gain more resources back while there natural recovery keeps it going. I'm not sure if a stamplar can dark deal while using shield wall but if it can then that puts it way over the DK class.
Well, DK can hold the block without using a defensive ultimate, that's the point, they can use an offensive one where others need to use a defensive one because block managment. Even if DK is forced to use spell wall, he will be able to be on the offensive because he will not be forced to spam heavies cuz battle roar.
That's why the are the best tanks, they don't need something else to be tanky (warden three, spell wall, ect)1 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Aedaryl
Mate what are you talking about? No class can hold block without using a defensive ultimate (from a hard dungeon/trial perspective). Your arguments to justify why a DK tank would be better than another class is pretty weak & also I'm not sure what tank would run an offensive ultimate as they'd do low damage lol.
Touching on the weak spell wall argument; Again you display some sort of disconnect on how tanking works. For some reason you feel that no class other than a DK would be offensive while using spell wall when I literally first stated you could use spell wall & heavy attack (an offensive move) which any class can do. I do that when my PuG trial group needs someone to tank 6 axes.
Touching on the misconception of battle roar; I'm not sure if you realize if we use an ultimate that costs low i.e spell wall, we'd receive roughly 4k-5k stamina back. You could do 3 or 4 heavy attacks & reach that threshold, you could drink a stam trash pot and exceed that threshold, & you can be a sorc using dark deal and instantly exceed that threshold.
Please stop making weak arguments I know you're trying hard but it isn't working.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Aedaryl
If that's your main reasoning for why DKs are the best tanks i.e "Because they are the best to gain resources while holding block" then that surely isn't a good reason at all.
With the current shield ultimate anyone can gain resources back simply by heavy attacking till they gain more resources back while there natural recovery keeps it going. I'm not sure if a stamplar can dark deal while using shield wall but if it can then that puts it way over the DK class.
Actually I have to disagree on this one. I do sometimes think that @Aedaryl hates Dks with a burning passion, but he/she is right on this one. Dks are better selfish tanks. Meanwhile wardens tanks pack much better utility for helping their team.
Dks do make the best tanks due to having the absolute best and easiest block sustain.. That is extremely strong for tanking in PvE, while also fairly strong in PvP duels aswell. One thing DK absolutely doesn't need any help with, is tanking, and second is self healing obviously.
And sadly we got tanking sustain/healing buffs in summerset. Which is exactly why I'm mad at Wrobel, he doesn't know what the heck he wants to do with this class. He first says DK sustain is too good and takes battle roar scaling,says Dk healing is too powerful , cuts major mending in half, and 11 months later he gives us back major mending and gives us some more sustain.
What is he even trying to achieve? hell if I know.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 19, 2018 3:24AM1 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Ragnarock41
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, I didn't state DKs aren't the best tanks but stated the reasons he gave were weak & not the correct one. The block sustain comment again isn't a good enough argument for the class because as I stated with shield wall anyone can sustain & I'm quite sure you can dark deal with shield wall active & thus out sustain DK even if said DK used a 250 ulti after shield wall was active (impossible but yeah).
If you wanna state why DKs are the better tanking class, then I will say sure battle roar is apart of what makes it slightly better but more so it's the skills that give increased healing received due to passives + hardened/volatile armor which has it's bonuses being a 1 slot skill that either gives you a shield or a DoT + the 12% extra healing when it's active.
^This slight advantage makes a DK a better class but not so much as it would be a 90 while a warden would be a 85.
Edit: I would mention the block passive but meh that's kind of a weak argument too but I also could mention dragons' blood morphs but both are kinda meh too & a waste (IMO) in terms of PvE related content.Edited by MaxwellC on May 19, 2018 5:08AM不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are a lot of reasons why DKs are the best tanks. The Stam gain while blocking is definitely one of the top reasons.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp4 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭@Ragnarock41
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, I didn't state DKs aren't the best tanks but stated the reasons he gave were weak & not the correct one. The block sustain comment again isn't a good enough argument for the class because as I stated with shield wall anyone can sustain & I'm quite sure you can dark deal with shield wall active & thus out sustain DK even if said DK used a 250 ulti after shield wall was active (impossible but yeah).
If you wanna state why DKs are the better tanking class, then I will say sure battle roar is apart of what makes it slightly better but more so it's the skills that give increased healing received due to passives + hardened/volatile armor which has it's bonuses being a 1 slot skill that either gives you a shield or a DoT + the 12% extra healing when it's active.
^This slight advantage makes a DK a better class but not so much as it would be a 90 while a warden would be a 85.
Edit: I would mention the block passive but meh that's kind of a weak argument too but I also could mention dragons' blood morphs but both are kinda meh too & a waste (IMO) in terms of PvE related content.
Combination of: chain, aoe immobilize, bonuses to block, battle roar+helping hands passives from 3d class skilline, Major Mending from igneous + 12% healing recieved passive from 2nd class skilline.
Last 1+ year Zos had cut dk's things, and added and will add more in Summerset to another classes, so warden can compete dk. templars and nbs (new cloak without cloak is very strong and very nice ultigen) will have better healing but without cc options. sorcs - still will be *** as tanks. But better than now.
But, dk's as tanks are and still will be maybe most comfortable.
And as stamwarriors in pvp most poor in options, boring and counterable, because that cuts were critical to make them underpowered@Anethum from .ua0 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭DK will be OP next patch. Quit your crying and "get gud".
do u really think fragmented shield and snare-removing scales will turn stamdk to normal state in feeding chain? objectively...
(King Krotha?)
P.s: I see stamdk interesting only if scales will give also some seconds of snare immunity on activation, because for expensive magskill, both these skills...), removing is nothing. But how to make this and not overpower manadk at the same time idk. Maybe only to make this skill cost stamina.Edited by Anethum on May 19, 2018 7:42AM@Anethum from .ua0 -
Krotha✭✭✭DK will be OP next patch. Quit your crying and "get gud".
do u really think fragmented shield and snare-removing scales will turn stamdk to normal state in feeding chain? objectively...
(King Krotha?)
P.s: I see stamdk interesting only if scales will give also some seconds of snare immunity on activation, because for expensive magskill, both these skills...), removing is nothing. But how to make this and not overpower manadk at the same time idk. Maybe only to make this skill cost stamina.
Yes it is I.
With proper resource management + combustion changes you will have no problem sustaining a DK in any scale of PvP. I recommend triune traits on jewelry to give more magicka to help with using wings/fragmented shield/hardened armor/fossilize/ flames of oblivion. Shouldn't really use any other DK ability on a Stam build.
What they really should do is just simply DK skill abilities. Make noxious breath give poison dmg increase. Make some draconic power morphs cost stamina like Green Dragon Blood, Hardened Armor, Choking Talons, Wings + Snare Removal, and dare I even say a stamina Exhale?!?!Edited by Krotha on May 19, 2018 7:48AM0 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭With proper resource management + combustion changes you will have no problem sustaining a DK in any scale of PvP.
argonians, bosmers, danmers ... its good combustion changed to at least but I'm skeptical of this because of so many popular immune to these status effects races. stamdk need more love i think, not enouch in current summersetEdited by Anethum on May 19, 2018 9:13AM@Anethum from .ua0