BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

CP is not your problem. You can have capped CP and still do poorly. And you can have 160 CP and do a good job. Of course, CP helps, and people who have higher CP tend to have more experience. But don't go thinking, "I need to go grind CP now!"

What you absolutely do need, though, is good damage output. Even if you kill the targets in the first boss in the 'wrong" order, it should not be that much of a struggle unless your damage output is just far too low.

So the first thing to do, really, is to sit yourself in front of a target dummy and see how much damage you're doing. You don't need that much for vCoA2 (though the more you have, the easier it becomes, of course). Can you hit 20K on a target dummy? Make that your first goal, and then work from there.

Thanks for your response.

I have never practiced on a target dummy, and do not know where to find one.

When you ask if I can hit at least 20K on a dummy, is that 20K for a single attack, or combined?

I hear people in videos and see people on here talking different numbers as far as DPS output, but do not really know what it means.

You can either find someone who has a target dummy in their home (you could even ask in zone chat). Or you can acquire a dummy to place in your own home (either by buying one that someone crafted, crafting it yourself, or even buying one from the Crown Store). The basic 3-million-health dummy will suffice. Hit this dummy until it dies. And then the game will tell you how much DPS you did while killing the dummy. This is the number to pay attention to. (And for Console players like you, this is the only way to measure DPS.)

Okay, cool. So the number at the end is the number I need to pay attention to? Assuming that if I am producing under 20K, I need to make some adjustments?

Yes, if you are pulling less than 20k, some adjustments are likely in order. People always think its their gear, but it's almost always a rotation issue. DPS in this game is about 20% build and 80% rotation. If you need help with magic sorc (think thats what you said you were playing), I am more than happy to help. There are some very clean and simple rotations for magic sorc that should break 20k at your level without too much problem.

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

CP is not your problem. You can have capped CP and still do poorly. And you can have 160 CP and do a good job. Of course, CP helps, and people who have higher CP tend to have more experience. But don't go thinking, "I need to go grind CP now!"

What you absolutely do need, though, is good damage output. Even if you kill the targets in the first boss in the 'wrong" order, it should not be that much of a struggle unless your damage output is just far too low.

So the first thing to do, really, is to sit yourself in front of a target dummy and see how much damage you're doing. You don't need that much for vCoA2 (though the more you have, the easier it becomes, of course). Can you hit 20K on a target dummy? Make that your first goal, and then work from there.

Thanks for your response.

I have never practiced on a target dummy, and do not know where to find one.

When you ask if I can hit at least 20K on a dummy, is that 20K for a single attack, or combined?

I hear people in videos and see people on here talking different numbers as far as DPS output, but do not really know what it means.

You can either find someone who has a target dummy in their home (you could even ask in zone chat). Or you can acquire a dummy to place in your own home (either by buying one that someone crafted, crafting it yourself, or even buying one from the Crown Store). The basic 3-million-health dummy will suffice. Hit this dummy until it dies. And then the game will tell you how much DPS you did while killing the dummy. This is the number to pay attention to. (And for Console players like you, this is the only way to measure DPS.)

Or do what I do when I need a clear. Make @code65536 tank it for you.

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

At CP 200, you are far more powerful than any of us were when COA 2 launched (and it was maybe the toughest dungeon in the game).

COA2 Is one of the few non-DLC dungeons that really does require you to follow some mechanics, so it can be a wake up call for a lot of groups.

With your group, you were essentially trying to do this dungeon with REALLY low DPS. You group comp of a Tank, Heals, and 1 DPS is certainly one of your biggest problems. At your CP, you arent doing nearly enough damage by yourself to skip or minimize any mechanics.

The first boss can be done really 1 of about 3 ways. The first is a straight nuke. It can be done with one DPS, but they had better be hitting some big numbers. Most Groupfinder groups with 2 DPS cant do this strat. You bascially single target the boss and ignore adds.

The second way is more practical. Again, you basically single target the boss, but you have your tank (needs to be on his game), chain in adds as they spawn so you can kill them with cleave damage. This is probably how most groups should try to do it. For a DPS, it really is the same thing as a nuke (maybe you time your ults for add waves), but hopefully, you have a lot less pressure at the end.

The third way I have seen it done actually has the healer round up and try to separate adds away from the tank and boss, and the DPS focuses them directly. I never had a lot of patience for this strat, but killing and add wave or two is often a solid strat if you are getting overwhellmed.

Honestly, the first boss is the tip of the iceberg. I think the second Titan boss is the hardest in there. It requires a tank that can generally handle themselves, a healer that can pay attention to 2 things at once, and damage that wont fall over at the first fire wave.

The last boss is almost a pure DPS check. Again a tank with chains and some good cleave is helpful, but hardmode especially, is a essentially a DPS race mixed with a game of "the floor is lava."

It was definitely a wake up call. Other dungeons we go in with barely any knowledge of mechanics and make it through just fine as we learn along the way, but this one was like "okay this is too tough, maybe another time"

Our Tank is in the 400's but just recently re-speced his character to actually "Tank" as before, he was just playing the game his way. Our healer, who plays a handful of characters, is our most knowledgeable player. Usually he and I both do DPS when we have our fourth player.

Seems like I have some learning and leveling to do before I attempt this again with hopes of succeeding.

My first VCOA clear took about 4 hours if it makes you feel better. Back then you didnt get a helm every time, nor could you group trade. I still remember getting my first skoria helm on run #16. I do believe it is the hardest non-DLC dungeon on vet. It was the first dungeon that my group at the time had to actually stop and think about a strategy. It was a very different animal back then, but the same principles apply. He is out of the game at this point I think, but I will plug Deltias old guides for these dungeons. They are thorough and tell you all you need to know. I always viewed his builds with a fair amount of skepticism, but his dungeon guides usually do the trick.

http://deltiasgaming.com/2014/11/29/veteran-city-ash-guide/

That is a good chunk of time! Thank you for the link, I like Deltia's videos.

Yea I would agree that is definitely tough. We previously tried Crypt of Hearts on veteran and blew through all the bosses before having to get off at the end boss, but it wasn't nearly as challenging as vCoA2.

What separates COA from some of the others is that the bosses along the way are actually tougher than the final boss. My first instinct is that you simply didnt have the DPS to clear with one damage dealer. Agains DPS (damage per second) is a measure of the total damage you do divided by the number of seconds in the fight. So if it takes you 75 seconds to kill a 3,000,000 health dummy, you did roughly 40k DPS (a high standard, and not what you should expect to pull). At your level, you should be shooting for 20-25k, so killing the 3 million dummy in 150 seconds or less. If you have never been on a dummy, that is honestly something you need to do. Dont take it personally, but I would be shocked if you broke 20k your first time. A common school of thought is that you need about 20k DPS per damage dealer to have a smooth run in most vet dungeons. Realistically you can get by with less, but mechanics matter even more. If you run with two DPS pulling 40k each for example, the opposite is true. Most 4 man content can be stacked and burned while mechanics are essentially ignored.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Okay, so last night I found a practice dummy to use. I know the number to pay attention to is the number at the end when I kill the dummy, to see my output. Is there a specific time limit I should be killing the dummy in?

When I was attacking it, I stopped after 3 minutes and 23 seconds, because in those few minutes, I managed to get the dummy down to 70% health. After I stopped, the damage output posted was just above 4400. I cannot remember the exact number.

I feel that this is probably terrible damage output for being cp251. My MagSorc main bar consists of Mage's Wrath - Boundless Storm - Liquid Lightning - Unstable Wall of Elements (shock staff) - Destructive Clench - Elemental Storm (Ultimate i just started using)

My back bar consists of my buffs: Dampen Magic - Power Surge - Bound Armor (can't morph yet) - Hardened Ward - Supression Shield (Ultimate). The remaining slot on this bar fluctuates.

I usually stat my rotations as follows:

Buffs (didn't use on dummy): Dampen Magic > Power Surge > Bound Armor > Hardened Ward - then I begin my attacks

Attack Rotation: Boundless Storm > Unstable Wall of Elements > Destructive Clench (usually knocks down enemy) > Liquid Lightning > Heavy Attack > Mage's Wrath (by this attack the enemy is usually low on health)

Rise and repeat.

@BozzyTheDrummer
Do be blunt, yes, that is terrible DPS. Not to fear, nobody pulls 30k out of the gate.

First lets talk about DPS generally. If you want to pull high damage, there are 2 main buffs, and one main debuff you want to figure out how to get, even on a dummy.

Buffs: Major Sorcery and Major Prophecy. These boost spell damage and spell crit. You can get both by simply drinking a spell power potion. If you have your alchemy passives maxed, you can keep these up 100% just by using potions. This is what ever serious damage dealer does at end game. You can also get Major Sorcery from Power surge, and major Prophecy by slotting Inner Light (mages guild skill line). Might make more sense to use the skills at lower levels, but potions are absolutely more damage. Potions can be cast at any time as long as they are off cooldown. Casting a skill like power surge means you weren't casting another damage skill, so its a DPS loss.

Debuffs: Major Breach is really important. Good news is that any competent tank will give this to you, so you shouldnt really need to worry about it. Penetration is one of the most important stats. Make sure you are wearing 5 light armor and spend the passives as well. When solo, you can cast elemental susceptibility (destro line) to give you major breach if you want to practice on a dummy. It refreshes with damage, so you should be able to cast it once pre-fight and then forget about it. Casting it wont draw aggro or start the fight.

Gear: I would be really hesitant to do too much with getting new gear until next patch, but as a general rule, use Magic DPS sets. Julianos is a great place to start. If you want to run a pet, Necropotence is a better option. Good monster sets include ilambris, Maw, Skoria, Zaan, Slimecraw. Trial Jewelry is generally your best bet, but willpower (arcane) will work just fine. Divines traits on armor, Infused traits on weapons, magic enchants on armor, spell damage enchants on jewelry. All attributes into magic (a few into health are okay).

Skills: Unless you are really opposed to it, I highly recommend running at least one pet on a sorc. The damage is just too good to pass up. Volatile Familiar if you want to run one, Twilight Matriarch (or tormentor) if you want to run two. Liquid lighting and elemental blockade are arguably your two most important damage skills. I think they work much better on your back bar. Cast them both every 8-10 seconds. Your next combo of skills is Volatile Familiar and Daedric Prey. Always cast them in that order and let them do there thing. Lastly, you are looking for another damage skill(s) for some filler. The easier method is to use destructive clench, the more complicated way is to run force pulse and frags. I would start with clench.

Rotation/bars: A pet sorc rotation is as easy as it gets. I would absolutely recommend a pet sorc/heavy attack rotation until you are consistently breaking 30k on a dummy (killing the whole thing in 100 seconds). Once you master that, you can look to something more complicated. I would set up your bars like this:

Front Bar: Clench, Inner Light, Twilight Matriarch (or bound Aegis), Volatile Familiar, Daedric Prey, Shooting Star
Back bar: Liquid Lighting, Elemental Blockade, Twilight Matriarch (or bound Aegis), Volatile Familiar, Hardened Ward (elemental susceptibility when on a dummy), Elemental Rage.

This is a really simple bar setup. Your choice between Bound Aegis or Twilight Matriarch. The pet is more damage, and the heal is nice, but some people dont like dealing with two pets (or one for that matter). No reason to run a shield when practicing damage rotations, so this is a nice flex spot to slot elemental susceptibility for the major breach. Also, no reason to run dampen magic, in PVE, 2 shields is overkill and you need the bar space. Lastly, if you want to run power surge (you either need to do that or run potions), you could replace Destructive Clench, but its definitely a damage loss. You also need to flip your ultimate if you do that, because you need a destro skill on both bars.

The rotation is as follows: (Prefight) Begin with a potion or power surge (whatever you use, reapply when they run out) and cast elemental susceptibility, then pop your destro ultimate which will actually start the fight. Then it goes as follows (LA=Light attack, HA=Heavy Attack). LA>Liquid Lighting, LA>Elemental Blockade, Bar Swap, HA>Volatile Familiar, HA> Daedric Prey, LA> Clench (or an extra heavy attack if you drop clench), Bar swap, Repeat.

Basically its 5 skills that you cast with a mix of light and heavy attacks. Keep the rotation consistent and circular. When your ultimate is up, drop it. When your potion or surge runs out, reapply, but otherwise, just rinse and repeat.

Dont expect to go from 5k to 30k overnight. It will take practice, but hopefully this will point you in the right direction. On live, that rotation in BIS gear and max CP is flirting with 40k. On PTS, its more like mid 40s.

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

CP is not your problem. You can have capped CP and still do poorly. And you can have 160 CP and do a good job. Of course, CP helps, and people who have higher CP tend to have more experience. But don't go thinking, "I need to go grind CP now!"

What you absolutely do need, though, is good damage output. Even if you kill the targets in the first boss in the 'wrong" order, it should not be that much of a struggle unless your damage output is just far too low.

So the first thing to do, really, is to sit yourself in front of a target dummy and see how much damage you're doing. You don't need that much for vCoA2 (though the more you have, the easier it becomes, of course). Can you hit 20K on a target dummy? Make that your first goal, and then work from there.

Thanks for your response.

I have never practiced on a target dummy, and do not know where to find one.

When you ask if I can hit at least 20K on a dummy, is that 20K for a single attack, or combined?

I hear people in videos and see people on here talking different numbers as far as DPS output, but do not really know what it means.

You can either find someone who has a target dummy in their home (you could even ask in zone chat). Or you can acquire a dummy to place in your own home (either by buying one that someone crafted, crafting it yourself, or even buying one from the Crown Store). The basic 3-million-health dummy will suffice. Hit this dummy until it dies. And then the game will tell you how much DPS you did while killing the dummy. This is the number to pay attention to. (And for Console players like you, this is the only way to measure DPS.)

Or do what I do when I need a clear. Make @code65536 tank it for you.

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

At CP 200, you are far more powerful than any of us were when COA 2 launched (and it was maybe the toughest dungeon in the game).

COA2 Is one of the few non-DLC dungeons that really does require you to follow some mechanics, so it can be a wake up call for a lot of groups.

With your group, you were essentially trying to do this dungeon with REALLY low DPS. You group comp of a Tank, Heals, and 1 DPS is certainly one of your biggest problems. At your CP, you arent doing nearly enough damage by yourself to skip or minimize any mechanics.

The first boss can be done really 1 of about 3 ways. The first is a straight nuke. It can be done with one DPS, but they had better be hitting some big numbers. Most Groupfinder groups with 2 DPS cant do this strat. You bascially single target the boss and ignore adds.

The second way is more practical. Again, you basically single target the boss, but you have your tank (needs to be on his game), chain in adds as they spawn so you can kill them with cleave damage. This is probably how most groups should try to do it. For a DPS, it really is the same thing as a nuke (maybe you time your ults for add waves), but hopefully, you have a lot less pressure at the end.

The third way I have seen it done actually has the healer round up and try to separate adds away from the tank and boss, and the DPS focuses them directly. I never had a lot of patience for this strat, but killing and add wave or two is often a solid strat if you are getting overwhellmed.

Honestly, the first boss is the tip of the iceberg. I think the second Titan boss is the hardest in there. It requires a tank that can generally handle themselves, a healer that can pay attention to 2 things at once, and damage that wont fall over at the first fire wave.

The last boss is almost a pure DPS check. Again a tank with chains and some good cleave is helpful, but hardmode especially, is a essentially a DPS race mixed with a game of "the floor is lava."

It was definitely a wake up call. Other dungeons we go in with barely any knowledge of mechanics and make it through just fine as we learn along the way, but this one was like "okay this is too tough, maybe another time"

Our Tank is in the 400's but just recently re-speced his character to actually "Tank" as before, he was just playing the game his way. Our healer, who plays a handful of characters, is our most knowledgeable player. Usually he and I both do DPS when we have our fourth player.

Seems like I have some learning and leveling to do before I attempt this again with hopes of succeeding.

My first VCOA clear took about 4 hours if it makes you feel better. Back then you didnt get a helm every time, nor could you group trade. I still remember getting my first skoria helm on run #16. I do believe it is the hardest non-DLC dungeon on vet. It was the first dungeon that my group at the time had to actually stop and think about a strategy. It was a very different animal back then, but the same principles apply. He is out of the game at this point I think, but I will plug Deltias old guides for these dungeons. They are thorough and tell you all you need to know. I always viewed his builds with a fair amount of skepticism, but his dungeon guides usually do the trick.

http://deltiasgaming.com/2014/11/29/veteran-city-ash-guide/

That is a good chunk of time! Thank you for the link, I like Deltia's videos.

Yea I would agree that is definitely tough. We previously tried Crypt of Hearts on veteran and blew through all the bosses before having to get off at the end boss, but it wasn't nearly as challenging as vCoA2.

What separates COA from some of the others is that the bosses along the way are actually tougher than the final boss. My first instinct is that you simply didnt have the DPS to clear with one damage dealer. Agains DPS (damage per second) is a measure of the total damage you do divided by the number of seconds in the fight. So if it takes you 75 seconds to kill a 3,000,000 health dummy, you did roughly 40k DPS (a high standard, and not what you should expect to pull). At your level, you should be shooting for 20-25k, so killing the 3 million dummy in 150 seconds or less. If you have never been on a dummy, that is honestly something you need to do. Dont take it personally, but I would be shocked if you broke 20k your first time. A common school of thought is that you need about 20k DPS per damage dealer to have a smooth run in most vet dungeons. Realistically you can get by with less, but mechanics matter even more. If you run with two DPS pulling 40k each for example, the opposite is true. Most 4 man content can be stacked and burned while mechanics are essentially ignored.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Okay, so last night I found a practice dummy to use. I know the number to pay attention to is the number at the end when I kill the dummy, to see my output. Is there a specific time limit I should be killing the dummy in?

When I was attacking it, I stopped after 3 minutes and 23 seconds, because in those few minutes, I managed to get the dummy down to 70% health. After I stopped, the damage output posted was just above 4400. I cannot remember the exact number.

I feel that this is probably terrible damage output for being cp251. My MagSorc main bar consists of Mage's Wrath - Boundless Storm - Liquid Lightning - Unstable Wall of Elements (shock staff) - Destructive Clench - Elemental Storm (Ultimate i just started using)

My back bar consists of my buffs: Dampen Magic - Power Surge - Bound Armor (can't morph yet) - Hardened Ward - Supression Shield (Ultimate). The remaining slot on this bar fluctuates.

I usually stat my rotations as follows:

Buffs (didn't use on dummy): Dampen Magic > Power Surge > Bound Armor > Hardened Ward - then I begin my attacks

Attack Rotation: Boundless Storm > Unstable Wall of Elements > Destructive Clench (usually knocks down enemy) > Liquid Lightning > Heavy Attack > Mage's Wrath (by this attack the enemy is usually low on health)

Rise and repeat.

@BozzyTheDrummer
Do be blunt, yes, that is terrible DPS. Not to fear, nobody pulls 30k out of the gate.

First lets talk about DPS generally. If you want to pull high damage, there are 2 main buffs, and one main debuff you want to figure out how to get, even on a dummy.

Buffs: Major Sorcery and Major Prophecy. These boost spell damage and spell crit. You can get both by simply drinking a spell power potion. If you have your alchemy passives maxed, you can keep these up 100% just by using potions. This is what ever serious damage dealer does at end game. You can also get Major Sorcery from Power surge, and major Prophecy by slotting Inner Light (mages guild skill line). Might make more sense to use the skills at lower levels, but potions are absolutely more damage. Potions can be cast at any time as long as they are off cooldown. Casting a skill like power surge means you weren't casting another damage skill, so its a DPS loss.

Debuffs: Major Breach is really important. Good news is that any competent tank will give this to you, so you shouldnt really need to worry about it. Penetration is one of the most important stats. Make sure you are wearing 5 light armor and spend the passives as well. When solo, you can cast elemental susceptibility (destro line) to give you major breach if you want to practice on a dummy. It refreshes with damage, so you should be able to cast it once pre-fight and then forget about it. Casting it wont draw aggro or start the fight.

Gear: I would be really hesitant to do too much with getting new gear until next patch, but as a general rule, use Magic DPS sets. Julianos is a great place to start. If you want to run a pet, Necropotence is a better option. Good monster sets include ilambris, Maw, Skoria, Zaan, Slimecraw. Trial Jewelry is generally your best bet, but willpower (arcane) will work just fine. Divines traits on armor, Infused traits on weapons, magic enchants on armor, spell damage enchants on jewelry. All attributes into magic (a few into health are okay).

Skills: Unless you are really opposed to it, I highly recommend running at least one pet on a sorc. The damage is just too good to pass up. Volatile Familiar if you want to run one, Twilight Matriarch (or tormentor) if you want to run two. Liquid lighting and elemental blockade are arguably your two most important damage skills. I think they work much better on your back bar. Cast them both every 8-10 seconds. Your next combo of skills is Volatile Familiar and Daedric Prey. Always cast them in that order and let them do there thing. Lastly, you are looking for another damage skill(s) for some filler. The easier method is to use destructive clench, the more complicated way is to run force pulse and frags. I would start with clench.

Rotation/bars: A pet sorc rotation is as easy as it gets. I would absolutely recommend a pet sorc/heavy attack rotation until you are consistently breaking 30k on a dummy (killing the whole thing in 100 seconds). Once you master that, you can look to something more complicated. I would set up your bars like this:

Front Bar: Clench, Inner Light, Twilight Matriarch (or bound Aegis), Volatile Familiar, Daedric Prey, Shooting Star
Back bar: Liquid Lighting, Elemental Blockade, Twilight Matriarch (or bound Aegis), Volatile Familiar, Hardened Ward (elemental susceptibility when on a dummy), Elemental Rage.

This is a really simple bar setup. Your choice between Bound Aegis or Twilight Matriarch. The pet is more damage, and the heal is nice, but some people dont like dealing with two pets (or one for that matter). No reason to run a shield when practicing damage rotations, so this is a nice flex spot to slot elemental susceptibility for the major breach. Also, no reason to run dampen magic, in PVE, 2 shields is overkill and you need the bar space. Lastly, if you want to run power surge (you either need to do that or run potions), you could replace Destructive Clench, but its definitely a damage loss. You also need to flip your ultimate if you do that, because you need a destro skill on both bars.

The rotation is as follows: (Prefight) Begin with a potion or power surge (whatever you use, reapply when they run out) and cast elemental susceptibility, then pop your destro ultimate which will actually start the fight. Then it goes as follows (LA=Light attack, HA=Heavy Attack). LA>Liquid Lighting, LA>Elemental Blockade, Bar Swap, HA>Volatile Familiar, HA> Daedric Prey, LA> Clench (or an extra heavy attack if you drop clench), Bar swap, Repeat.

Basically its 5 skills that you cast with a mix of light and heavy attacks. Keep the rotation consistent and circular. When your ultimate is up, drop it. When your potion or surge runs out, reapply, but otherwise, just rinse and repeat.

Dont expect to go from 5k to 30k overnight. It will take practice, but hopefully this will point you in the right direction. On live, that rotation in BIS gear and max CP is flirting with 40k. On PTS, its more like mid 40s.

This helps immensely, thank you! The build I looked up for the sorc I have now is the one without using pets. I actually like using pets, so I don't mind having them slotted. This specific character isn't very skilled in them, so I will need to level them accordingly.

I am going to work on this and see how it pans out for me. As it is right now, I can hold my own on some bosses, but gog lord does it take forever! That's why I wanted to start working on at least figuring out what my damage output is, because it's taking way too long for me to take down powerful enemies by myself.

Pets are absolutely more damage. There are certain fights (mostly in trials) where they will continue to die over and over, so they just arent worth using for some things. Also, some people just hate having to deal with them. That said, 99% of the PVE content in this game is pet friendly.

Also, seriously dont feel bad. You are doing the right thing. The first dummy attempt is often a very rude awakening for most people. 5k absolutely stinks, but you will get it up in no time if you work at it a bit. You will feel a world of difference once you get it up to about 20k or so, and will be ahead of your average person in group finder. 20k is enough for most veteran content if you pay attention to mechanics. At your CP, 30k is probably pushing it, but its a reasonable goal. At that level, you will start to skip a lot of mechanics.

And remember, this same rotation works as well on a boss as it does in a trash pull. Heavy attacks with lighting staves (run lighting staves) do a ton of AOE damage if you spend the passives (make sure to put points into passives). Other than clench and LAs, essentially all your damage is AOE, so you will start to see mobs just melt when you get the hang of things.

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

CP is not your problem. You can have capped CP and still do poorly. And you can have 160 CP and do a good job. Of course, CP helps, and people who have higher CP tend to have more experience. But don't go thinking, "I need to go grind CP now!"

What you absolutely do need, though, is good damage output. Even if you kill the targets in the first boss in the 'wrong" order, it should not be that much of a struggle unless your damage output is just far too low.

So the first thing to do, really, is to sit yourself in front of a target dummy and see how much damage you're doing. You don't need that much for vCoA2 (though the more you have, the easier it becomes, of course). Can you hit 20K on a target dummy? Make that your first goal, and then work from there.

Thanks for your response.

I have never practiced on a target dummy, and do not know where to find one.

When you ask if I can hit at least 20K on a dummy, is that 20K for a single attack, or combined?

I hear people in videos and see people on here talking different numbers as far as DPS output, but do not really know what it means.

You can either find someone who has a target dummy in their home (you could even ask in zone chat). Or you can acquire a dummy to place in your own home (either by buying one that someone crafted, crafting it yourself, or even buying one from the Crown Store). The basic 3-million-health dummy will suffice. Hit this dummy until it dies. And then the game will tell you how much DPS you did while killing the dummy. This is the number to pay attention to. (And for Console players like you, this is the only way to measure DPS.)

Or do what I do when I need a clear. Make @code65536 tank it for you.

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BozzyTheDrummer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

At CP 200, you are far more powerful than any of us were when COA 2 launched (and it was maybe the toughest dungeon in the game).

COA2 Is one of the few non-DLC dungeons that really does require you to follow some mechanics, so it can be a wake up call for a lot of groups.

With your group, you were essentially trying to do this dungeon with REALLY low DPS. You group comp of a Tank, Heals, and 1 DPS is certainly one of your biggest problems. At your CP, you arent doing nearly enough damage by yourself to skip or minimize any mechanics.

The first boss can be done really 1 of about 3 ways. The first is a straight nuke. It can be done with one DPS, but they had better be hitting some big numbers. Most Groupfinder groups with 2 DPS cant do this strat. You bascially single target the boss and ignore adds.

The second way is more practical. Again, you basically single target the boss, but you have your tank (needs to be on his game), chain in adds as they spawn so you can kill them with cleave damage. This is probably how most groups should try to do it. For a DPS, it really is the same thing as a nuke (maybe you time your ults for add waves), but hopefully, you have a lot less pressure at the end.

The third way I have seen it done actually has the healer round up and try to separate adds away from the tank and boss, and the DPS focuses them directly. I never had a lot of patience for this strat, but killing and add wave or two is often a solid strat if you are getting overwhellmed.

Honestly, the first boss is the tip of the iceberg. I think the second Titan boss is the hardest in there. It requires a tank that can generally handle themselves, a healer that can pay attention to 2 things at once, and damage that wont fall over at the first fire wave.

The last boss is almost a pure DPS check. Again a tank with chains and some good cleave is helpful, but hardmode especially, is a essentially a DPS race mixed with a game of "the floor is lava."

It was definitely a wake up call. Other dungeons we go in with barely any knowledge of mechanics and make it through just fine as we learn along the way, but this one was like "okay this is too tough, maybe another time"

Our Tank is in the 400's but just recently re-speced his character to actually "Tank" as before, he was just playing the game his way. Our healer, who plays a handful of characters, is our most knowledgeable player. Usually he and I both do DPS when we have our fourth player.

Seems like I have some learning and leveling to do before I attempt this again with hopes of succeeding.

My first VCOA clear took about 4 hours if it makes you feel better. Back then you didnt get a helm every time, nor could you group trade. I still remember getting my first skoria helm on run #16. I do believe it is the hardest non-DLC dungeon on vet. It was the first dungeon that my group at the time had to actually stop and think about a strategy. It was a very different animal back then, but the same principles apply. He is out of the game at this point I think, but I will plug Deltias old guides for these dungeons. They are thorough and tell you all you need to know. I always viewed his builds with a fair amount of skepticism, but his dungeon guides usually do the trick.

http://deltiasgaming.com/2014/11/29/veteran-city-ash-guide/

That is a good chunk of time! Thank you for the link, I like Deltia's videos.

Yea I would agree that is definitely tough. We previously tried Crypt of Hearts on veteran and blew through all the bosses before having to get off at the end boss, but it wasn't nearly as challenging as vCoA2.

What separates COA from some of the others is that the bosses along the way are actually tougher than the final boss. My first instinct is that you simply didnt have the DPS to clear with one damage dealer. Agains DPS (damage per second) is a measure of the total damage you do divided by the number of seconds in the fight. So if it takes you 75 seconds to kill a 3,000,000 health dummy, you did roughly 40k DPS (a high standard, and not what you should expect to pull). At your level, you should be shooting for 20-25k, so killing the 3 million dummy in 150 seconds or less. If you have never been on a dummy, that is honestly something you need to do. Dont take it personally, but I would be shocked if you broke 20k your first time. A common school of thought is that you need about 20k DPS per damage dealer to have a smooth run in most vet dungeons. Realistically you can get by with less, but mechanics matter even more. If you run with two DPS pulling 40k each for example, the opposite is true. Most 4 man content can be stacked and burned while mechanics are essentially ignored.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Okay, so last night I found a practice dummy to use. I know the number to pay attention to is the number at the end when I kill the dummy, to see my output. Is there a specific time limit I should be killing the dummy in?

When I was attacking it, I stopped after 3 minutes and 23 seconds, because in those few minutes, I managed to get the dummy down to 70% health. After I stopped, the damage output posted was just above 4400. I cannot remember the exact number.

I feel that this is probably terrible damage output for being cp251. My MagSorc main bar consists of Mage's Wrath - Boundless Storm - Liquid Lightning - Unstable Wall of Elements (shock staff) - Destructive Clench - Elemental Storm (Ultimate i just started using)

My back bar consists of my buffs: Dampen Magic - Power Surge - Bound Armor (can't morph yet) - Hardened Ward - Supression Shield (Ultimate). The remaining slot on this bar fluctuates.

I usually stat my rotations as follows:

Buffs (didn't use on dummy): Dampen Magic > Power Surge > Bound Armor > Hardened Ward - then I begin my attacks

Attack Rotation: Boundless Storm > Unstable Wall of Elements > Destructive Clench (usually knocks down enemy) > Liquid Lightning > Heavy Attack > Mage's Wrath (by this attack the enemy is usually low on health)

Rise and repeat.

@BozzyTheDrummer
Do be blunt, yes, that is terrible DPS. Not to fear, nobody pulls 30k out of the gate.

First lets talk about DPS generally. If you want to pull high damage, there are 2 main buffs, and one main debuff you want to figure out how to get, even on a dummy.

Buffs: Major Sorcery and Major Prophecy. These boost spell damage and spell crit. You can get both by simply drinking a spell power potion. If you have your alchemy passives maxed, you can keep these up 100% just by using potions. This is what ever serious damage dealer does at end game. You can also get Major Sorcery from Power surge, and major Prophecy by slotting Inner Light (mages guild skill line). Might make more sense to use the skills at lower levels, but potions are absolutely more damage. Potions can be cast at any time as long as they are off cooldown. Casting a skill like power surge means you weren't casting another damage skill, so its a DPS loss.

Debuffs: Major Breach is really important. Good news is that any competent tank will give this to you, so you shouldnt really need to worry about it. Penetration is one of the most important stats. Make sure you are wearing 5 light armor and spend the passives as well. When solo, you can cast elemental susceptibility (destro line) to give you major breach if you want to practice on a dummy. It refreshes with damage, so you should be able to cast it once pre-fight and then forget about it. Casting it wont draw aggro or start the fight.

Gear: I would be really hesitant to do too much with getting new gear until next patch, but as a general rule, use Magic DPS sets. Julianos is a great place to start. If you want to run a pet, Necropotence is a better option. Good monster sets include ilambris, Maw, Skoria, Zaan, Slimecraw. Trial Jewelry is generally your best bet, but willpower (arcane) will work just fine. Divines traits on armor, Infused traits on weapons, magic enchants on armor, spell damage enchants on jewelry. All attributes into magic (a few into health are okay).

Skills: Unless you are really opposed to it, I highly recommend running at least one pet on a sorc. The damage is just too good to pass up. Volatile Familiar if you want to run one, Twilight Matriarch (or tormentor) if you want to run two. Liquid lighting and elemental blockade are arguably your two most important damage skills. I think they work much better on your back bar. Cast them both every 8-10 seconds. Your next combo of skills is Volatile Familiar and Daedric Prey. Always cast them in that order and let them do there thing. Lastly, you are looking for another damage skill(s) for some filler. The easier method is to use destructive clench, the more complicated way is to run force pulse and frags. I would start with clench.

Rotation/bars: A pet sorc rotation is as easy as it gets. I would absolutely recommend a pet sorc/heavy attack rotation until you are consistently breaking 30k on a dummy (killing the whole thing in 100 seconds). Once you master that, you can look to something more complicated. I would set up your bars like this:

Front Bar: Clench, Inner Light, Twilight Matriarch (or bound Aegis), Volatile Familiar, Daedric Prey, Shooting Star
Back bar: Liquid Lighting, Elemental Blockade, Twilight Matriarch (or bound Aegis), Volatile Familiar, Hardened Ward (elemental susceptibility when on a dummy), Elemental Rage.

This is a really simple bar setup. Your choice between Bound Aegis or Twilight Matriarch. The pet is more damage, and the heal is nice, but some people dont like dealing with two pets (or one for that matter). No reason to run a shield when practicing damage rotations, so this is a nice flex spot to slot elemental susceptibility for the major breach. Also, no reason to run dampen magic, in PVE, 2 shields is overkill and you need the bar space. Lastly, if you want to run power surge (you either need to do that or run potions), you could replace Destructive Clench, but its definitely a damage loss. You also need to flip your ultimate if you do that, because you need a destro skill on both bars.

The rotation is as follows: (Prefight) Begin with a potion or power surge (whatever you use, reapply when they run out) and cast elemental susceptibility, then pop your destro ultimate which will actually start the fight. Then it goes as follows (LA=Light attack, HA=Heavy Attack). LA>Liquid Lighting, LA>Elemental Blockade, Bar Swap, HA>Volatile Familiar, HA> Daedric Prey, LA> Clench (or an extra heavy attack if you drop clench), Bar swap, Repeat.

Basically its 5 skills that you cast with a mix of light and heavy attacks. Keep the rotation consistent and circular. When your ultimate is up, drop it. When your potion or surge runs out, reapply, but otherwise, just rinse and repeat.

Dont expect to go from 5k to 30k overnight. It will take practice, but hopefully this will point you in the right direction. On live, that rotation in BIS gear and max CP is flirting with 40k. On PTS, its more like mid 40s.

This helps immensely, thank you! The build I looked up for the sorc I have now is the one without using pets. I actually like using pets, so I don't mind having them slotted. This specific character isn't very skilled in them, so I will need to level them accordingly.

I am going to work on this and see how it pans out for me. As it is right now, I can hold my own on some bosses, but gog lord does it take forever! That's why I wanted to start working on at least figuring out what my damage output is, because it's taking way too long for me to take down powerful enemies by myself.

Pets are absolutely more damage. There are certain fights (mostly in trials) where they will continue to die over and over, so they just arent worth using for some things. Also, some people just hate having to deal with them. That said, 99% of the PVE content in this game is pet friendly.

Also, seriously dont feel bad. You are doing the right thing. The first dummy attempt is often a very rude awakening for most people. 5k absolutely stinks, but you will get it up in no time if you work at it a bit. You will feel a world of difference once you get it up to about 20k or so, and will be ahead of your average person in group finder. 20k is enough for most veteran content if you pay attention to mechanics. At your CP, 30k is probably pushing it, but its a reasonable goal. At that level, you will start to skip a lot of mechanics.

And remember, this same rotation works as well on a boss as it does in a trash pull. Heavy attacks with lighting staves (run lighting staves) do a ton of AOE damage if you spend the passives (make sure to put points into passives). Other than clench and LAs, essentially all your damage is AOE, so you will start to see mobs just melt when you get the hang of things.

Okay, so I have been spending my time working on the skills and rotations you have recommended for my sorc. My front/back bar are almost identical to what you advised, I am not using bound aegis, as I have volatile familiar and twilight matriarch on both bars.

I am using the rotations you mentioned and my results are:

before using pet rotation: Taking out the dummy in 6 and a half minutes only doing between 4.5k-5.5k.

after using pet rotation: taking out the dummy in about 5 minutes and 20 seconds, but dealing about 9.2k in total damage.

Not the best, but that a decent amount of damage increase without having any crafted sets like juli or necro.

Currently what I am wearing is 5/5 pieces of worm cult armor and skoria helmet and infernal guardian shoulder (trying to get skoria shoulder but no luck.

I am going to work on trying to get Ilambris. But I am not having any luck with vet dungeons. I keep getting kicked towards the middle of dungeons. I understand why, I am not salty about it, I'm not dealing enough damage. So one day I'll get the ilambris helmet.

I ended up farming battegrounds to buy the skoria helmet. I managed to get in a group to run through Vet CoA2, as expected, I wasn't doing a whole lot of damage compared to the rest of the group. Was trying to do as much I could. We got to Skoria at the end, and they ended up kicking me at the last minute. I messaged one of the guys about it, again not salty at all. I more so thanked him for keeping me in the group long enough and that I understood why they voted to kick me. He ended up friending me on there and offered to help me later.

Which monster set is better though for a pet build? Should I go for ilambris or skoria? I really like skoria for the look, but does it differ much from using ilambris?

Dont work yourself up over the monster set. They both work just fine, as does Maw and Zaan. Pretty much any monster set at the extreme end of things is going to give you 2-3k single target DPS, and that is on someone pulling 40k to begin with. I would wear whichever one you complete first. Skoria is nice for less experienced players because of the health boost if nothing else.

Your bigger goal should be some actual gear. I am a little hesitent to recommend specific sets as the new patch just dropped and I havent got around to testing a pet sorc yet. That said, a 5 piece set of julianos would go a long way. I wont call it best in slot, but this is what I would do if I was trying to put together my first gear set in the current meta.

Start by farming 3 Purple Necro Rings. Go to rivenspire and start farming dolmens. There should be a really big group with the new patch. You are guaranteed a jewelry drop with each dolmen. Every thing that is not purple necro, you can simply sell for 2-4K in zone chat. Everyone is buying up random jewelry to decon, so you will make some good money (or you can use to level your own jewelry crafting).

Next Find a crafter. Have them make two Julianos Lighting Staves in infused, and 3 pieces of armor (not head or shoulders).

After, farm (in rivenspire public dungeon) or simply buy, 2 pieces of necro armor. It's just not that expensive. You could even buy the jewelry if you want, but the farm is not bad and pretty lucrative right now. Also, nothing wrong with blue jewelry at first.

Finally, pair it with any monster set you can get, if they are miss matched in the beginning, its not the end of the world.

Make sure you have 5 light, 1 medium and 1 heavy with you armor pieces. Ideally, you have a heavy chest and medium legs (nice thing about julianos is you can pick whatever weight you want), but if the monster set you get happens to be in medium or heavy, you can make the chest or legs light as needed. Just get to 5/1/1. The best traits this patch seem to be, infused weapons, Infused Head, Chest, Legs, Divines everything else.