A fast and easy way to adress the Jewelrycrafting concerns

Carbonised · May 2018

There have already been plenty of posts outlining the problem of jewelrycrafting, which primarily concerns the lack of upgrade mats/tempers, and their being split into 1/10th of full upgrade mats.

ZOS is already wedded to the idea of tempers split into parts, and it seems unlikely this will change significantly.

However, there is a small but elegant solution to this: look into the droprates of temper parts from refining raw jewelrycrafting mats. By upping the dropchance for all colours of upgrade mats, you can keep the current system as is, and still provide players with a crafting system that doesn't take as much time, effort and grind in order to make a green ring, as it does to make a gold piece of armor (which is almost the case right now, according to the testing that has been done).

I suggest giving green upgrade mat parts a much higher droprate from refining, blue a somewhat higher droprate, purple a moderate droprate boost and gold a small droprate increase.
If nothing is changed from PTS now to live, I strongly suggest that ZOS monitors the usage of the jewelrycrafting very, very closely in the immediate months to come, and adjust the droprate of upgrade mats from refining accordingly. Your math and server statistics will tell you if people actually bother to create green, blue, purple or even gold jewels through crafting, or if they simply forego it altogether and only use jewelrycrafting to transmute into new traits.

Since nothing has been changed regarding master writs for jewelrycrafting, I also strongly suggest you monitor if people actually bother to waste their upgrade mats for a meager amount of vouchers (which I sincerely doubt anyone will). Once again, server statistics will tell you in a few months that jewelrycrafting master writs need to award a much higher amount of vouchers than they currently do (which is still the case for the provisioning writs that require perfect roe).

Surely someone at your office must be able to track these things and ajust droprates accordingly along the way. ZOS unfortunately has a bad habit of leaving droprates as-is for things like furniture recipes and other sought-after items, despite large famines on at least some of the megaservers. I suggest ZOS keeps a closer eye out on droprates in general, for items such as recipes and now jewelrycrafting upgrade mats, and do adjustments accordingly along the way, instead of going half or even a full year between adressing droprates that are way too low.

Bear in mind that upgrade mats are also used in the new jewelrycrafting furniture recipes, which often call for 4 green or 3 blue full upgrade mats per item. This also emphasizes the need for temper droprates to be higher than the other crafts for jewelrycrafting, since you went with the unnecessary concept of 1/10th of temper parts instead of whole tempers.
Another way of helping out furniture crafters would be to look again at some of the jewelrycrafting recipes, and adjust them accordingly, for instance requiring 2 green tempers instead of 4 as it currently is, which still translates to 20 green upgrade mats instead of 40, when you compare them to other crafts.

Wayshuba · May 2018

The easiest way to address it is to make it like people are expecting - to mimic blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking.

1.) Get rid of the 1/10 stuff and just go with the upgrade items dropping whole like tempers do.

2.) With passive upgrades, allow research of necklace and ring at same time.

3.) Add a hireling like you have for 5 out of 6 crafts today.

Anything else is horse-puckey. Might I say that what makes this a particularly bad rub the way it is now is that people are PAYING to get jewelry crafting and they are going to get this poor grind for no good reason at all.

I can say that some people I play with and weren't on PTS were rather very surprised by what ZoS is doing with jewelry crafting because it makes no logical design sense.

Carbonised · May 2018

Wayshuba wrote: »

The easiest way to address it is to make it like people are expecting - to mimic blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking.

1.) Get rid of the 1/10 stuff and just go with the upgrade items dropping whole like tempers do.

2.) With passive upgrades, allow research of necklace and ring at same time.

3.) Add a hireling like you have for 5 out of 6 crafts today.

Anything else is horse-puckey. Might I say that what makes this a particularly bad rub the way it is now is that people are PAYING to get jewelry crafting and they are going to get this poor grind for no good reason at all.

I can say that some people I play with and weren't on PTS were rather very surprised by what ZoS is doing with jewelry crafting because it makes no logical design sense.

Considering that we are now into the final week of PTS, that's simply not going to happen.

Clearly ZOS wants to keep the 1/10th model, asking for them to scrap it is wishful thinking, it's there for better or worse, and we might just accept that and instead work with the system.

Also, hireling isn't going to happen - at least not in the immediate future. I agree that a hireling would be great and I hope they do add one eventually, but for now, it's not going to happen and again, we just have to accept that and move on.

Upping the droprate of the temper parts is feasible, easy to do, doesn't require a lot of work for ZOS, and would in effect remedy a lot of the grind of jewelrycrafting, hence why I suggested it. And if ZOS doesn't want to change the droprate of temper parts immediately at release, then I strongly suggest they do so along the way, and sooner rather than later.

It's about working with the system and suggesting what's actually feasible, instead of trying to change the whole system, which will remain wishful thinking and nothing more.

Wayshuba · May 2018

I still think they could mimic existing crafts easy enough, even this close to going live.

That said, I can't wait to see the uproar ZoS is going to be dealing with when people see what they get with jewelry crafting (that they PAID FOR) when it goes live.

Going to be a lot of very disappointed people.

Gallagher563 · May 2018

Uping the drop rate of upgrade materials would work if say they increased gold's by about 3X and all the others by about 5X. So for purple that would mean it still takes double the mats of any other crafting line but still reasonable.

Carbonised · May 2018

Gallagher563 wrote: »

Uping the drop rate of upgrade materials would work if say they increased gold's by about 3X and all the others by about 5X. So for purple that would mean it still takes double the mats of any other crafting line but still reasonable.

Indeed. Upping the droprate of temper mats but keeping the system would place jewelrycrafting grind as harder/longer than the other 3 crafting skills, but easier/faster than the current model, which I think is an ideal spot for jewelry, considering that it's less pieces of an outfit.

redspecter23 · May 2018

I'd prefer that the drops from decon and refining stay the same. In that way, the % chance of a drop is similar among the 4 equipment crafting professions. I suspect that over time, they will adjust the number required to refine into the full mat. Possibly going from 10:1 to 5:1 and maybe eventually 1:1 once the system is firmly in place. ZOS is definitely playing it safe with the upgrade mats (way too safe if you ask me). Based on the master writ rewards which are shockingly low compared to the craft cost associated with it, they are already planning on bringing the grind more in line with other crafts. Their complete silence on the matter is completely infuriating however.

My thoughts going forward are that I won't refine anything until I have full decon perks. I won't combine raw upgrade mats into full upgrade mats unless absolutely necessary just in case they adjust the upgrade ratio. I'll hold onto all my master writs mostly because they are absolutely pointless currently but also in the hopes that once the material grind is lessened, the writs will look more appealing.

Gallagher563 · May 2018

My suggestion was geared towards making jewelry crafting viable day 1. If they want to do away with all this 10x stuff they can leave the drop rate as they are currently are and be consistent with the other crafting profession's.

drake88131 · May 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

There have already been plenty of posts outlining the problem of jewelrycrafting, which primarily concerns the lack of upgrade mats/tempers, and their being split into 1/10th of full upgrade mats.

ZOS is already wedded to the idea of tempers split into parts, and it seems unlikely this will change significantly.

However, there is a small but elegant solution to this: look into the droprates of temper parts from refining raw jewelrycrafting mats. By upping the dropchance for all colours of upgrade mats, you can keep the current system as is, and still provide players with a crafting system that doesn't take as much time, effort and grind in order to make a green ring, as it does to make a gold piece of armor (which is almost the case right now, according to the testing that has been done).

I suggest giving green upgrade mat parts a much higher droprate from refining, blue a somewhat higher droprate, purple a moderate droprate boost and gold a small droprate increase.
If nothing is changed from PTS now to live, I strongly suggest that ZOS monitors the usage of the jewelrycrafting very, very closely in the immediate months to come, and adjust the droprate of upgrade mats from refining accordingly. Your math and server statistics will tell you if people actually bother to create green, blue, purple or even gold jewels through crafting, or if they simply forego it altogether and only use jewelrycrafting to transmute into new traits.

Since nothing has been changed regarding master writs for jewelrycrafting, I also strongly suggest you monitor if people actually bother to waste their upgrade mats for a meager amount of vouchers (which I sincerely doubt anyone will). Once again, server statistics will tell you in a few months that jewelrycrafting master writs need to award a much higher amount of vouchers than they currently do (which is still the case for the provisioning writs that require perfect roe).

Surely someone at your office must be able to track these things and ajust droprates accordingly along the way. ZOS unfortunately has a bad habit of leaving droprates as-is for things like furniture recipes and other sought-after items, despite large famines on at least some of the megaservers. I suggest ZOS keeps a closer eye out on droprates in general, for items such as recipes and now jewelrycrafting upgrade mats, and do adjustments accordingly along the way, instead of going half or even a full year between adressing droprates that are way too low.

Bear in mind that upgrade mats are also used in the new jewelrycrafting furniture recipes, which often call for 4 green or 3 blue full upgrade mats per item. This also emphasizes the need for temper droprates to be higher than the other crafts for jewelrycrafting, since you went with the unnecessary concept of 1/10th of temper parts instead of whole tempers.
Another way of helping out furniture crafters would be to look again at some of the jewelrycrafting recipes, and adjust them accordingly, for instance requiring 2 green tempers instead of 4 as it currently is, which still translates to 20 green upgrade mats instead of 40, when you compare them to other crafts.

Guessing they won't do anything. It is going live. Just make your peace with it and transmute your jewels and be happy. No reason to grind.

Shantu · May 2018

I'll never understand why game architects think that requiring days/weeks/months of mindless, robotic grinding for minuscule return has any entertainment value at all. Maybe if I'm an obsessive hoarder with no real life who can sit in one place doing one thing for 15 hours a day. For the rest, it just pisses people off. Mind you I do it as much as I can tolerate because I enjoy crafting. 99% will tell you they hate it yet you continue to exponentially exasperate the problem. Get a grip already!

I was looking forward to jewelry crafting, but this new grindfest sucked all the anticipation out of me. Once released be prepared for a windfall of angry, enraged players.Why that is considered good game design is beyond by ability to comprehend.

drake88131 · May 2018

Shantu wrote: »

I'll never understand why game architects think that requiring days/weeks/months of mindless, robotic grinding for minuscule return has any entertainment value at all. Maybe if I'm an obsessive hoarder with no real life who can sit in one place doing one thing for 15 hours a day. For the rest, it just pisses people off. Mind you I do it as much as I can tolerate because I enjoy crafting. 99% will tell you they hate it yet you continue to exponentially exasperate the problem. Get a grip already!

I was looking forward to jewelry crafting, but this new grindfest sucked all the anticipation out of me. Once released be prepared for a windfall of angry, enraged players.Why that is considered good game design is beyond by ability to comprehend.

Well said

Ley · May 2018

People keep approaching Jewelry Crafting like it's a problem that needs to be fixed, rather that a crafting system that was deliberately designed the this way.

Gallagher563 · May 2018

Well we are trying then to make suggestions to improve upon a poorly designed system and improve upon the implementation before the system goes live.

ZeroXFF · May 2018

I wouldn't even have a problem with this 1/10 thing if they at least added hirelings, so that I wouldn't actually have to farm for it, just log in every day and wait. But as it stands now, this level of grinding + no hirelings is just absurd. At least one of these things has to change (preferably both). And on top of it all, the 1/10 thing is such a waste of inventory space. It's about time they released additional bag/bank upgrades (especially considering new style materials being added every patch) or made the craft bag a base game feature.

When it comes to research speed though, I disagree with @Wayshuba , it should stay the same. You will finish research just as fast as you can finish it with woodworking. These two are literally identical in time requirements.

DeadlyRecluse · May 2018

Having the 4th equipment craft operate on a 1/10th scaled version of the system is inconsistent and nonsensical.

Just make it use the same system and reduce the drop rate/number of jewelry mat nodes if you need artificial scarcity for a patch or two. Making it mechanically distinct is silliness (similar to the x10 mats for CP160 gear thing, it works fine but is completely inconsistent with the rest of the crafting system).

Silver_Strider · May 2018

I expect them to add refined mats to the IC vendor for Tel Var at some point in the future. Would lessen some of the grind that's for sure.

yttoks · May 2018

This all assumes that ZOS agrees that the grind is a problem. I don't think they do.

They won't do any of this, because there intention is for jewelry crafting to be a grind, just like CP160 gear was when it came out and the drop rates for mats was lower than they currently are.

It might also be a case of careful what you ask for. They will be making lots of balance changes for awhile as the implications of jewelry crafting and the other combat changes become more clear. It might not be such a great thing if large #'s of gold crafted-set jewelry were out in the world right out of the starting gate. A slower pace would at least give them a chance to react to new and crazy set combos that are surely coming.

Tannus15 · May 2018

Ley wrote: »

People keep approaching Jewelry Crafting like it's a problem that needs to be fixed, rather that a crafting system that was deliberately designed the this way.

This pretty much sums up the PTS

the product team know what they want to do, we're just looking for bugs.

Wayshuba · May 2018

Ley wrote: »

People keep approaching Jewelry Crafting like it's a problem that needs to be fixed, rather that a crafting system that was deliberately designed the this way.

I respectfully disagree. I think most realize this was intentionally designed this way and part of the disappointment is, since Homestead, it seems game design is being run by marketing about what they can monetize in each release (in this case the new jewelry research scrolls), than what makes sense from a game design standpoint.

In addition, what makes this rub particularly bad is this is not some free update to the game but rather something people have to PAY FOR to be able to get.

What people realize is many who have purchased Summerset but haven't gone on the PTS are expecting it to be similar to blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking (and why wouldn't they when it has been the core craft design of the game) and instead are in for a very rude awakening when they find out it was needlessly changed to have a bigger grind, no hirelings, and limiting research to one item at a time.

What people are trying to do is wake ZoS up from this stupor of trying to monetize every aspect of game design around F2P tactics when it is a B2P game. This is the part of the gaming industry that is starting to suffer customer backlash because people are sick of it.

But it appears ZoS is committed to this path, so we might as well enjoy things while we can until there are so many layers of this in game monetization that we have another LOTRO or SWTOR on our hands.

Wayshuba · May 2018

yttoks wrote: »

This all assumes that ZOS agrees that the grind is a problem. I don't think they do.

They won't do any of this, because there intention is for jewelry crafting to be a grind, just like CP160 gear was when it came out and the drop rates for mats was lower than they currently are.

It might also be a case of careful what you ask for. They will be making lots of balance changes for awhile as the implications of jewelry crafting and the other combat changes become more clear. It might not be such a great thing if large #'s of gold crafted-set jewelry were out in the world right out of the starting gate. A slower pace would at least give them a chance to react to new and crazy set combos that are surely coming.

Honestly, I think it is much less about the crafted set meta and more about the upgrade capabilities. Being able to upgrade blue to gold means people won't need to run the harder content for jewelry (though there are still plenty of reasons to run harder content besides jewelry).

Feanor · May 2018

It’s just Housing 2.0. Remember how people complained over the low drop rate of the ingredients when it was first released. The fear of someone having everything day 1 must be really strong at ZOS.

Carbonised · May 2018

I see some people:

1) *** in general about jewelrycrafting. There are plenty of threads for this already, please use one of those. It's unrealistic to expect ZOS to do away with temper parts or long grinds at this point in time, the information is already out in official guides, text books and whatnot, asking for the impossible is not going to be fruitful.

2) Claim that jewelrycrafting is working perfectly fine, often with a snooty and lofty attitude. I suggest you read the extensive post from Code in which he explains in detail why the current temper upgrade system is excessive in its grind. Once again, I suggest you discuss the "grindness" or lack thereof of jewelrycrafting in that thread, this thread isn't the one for that discussion.

This thread is specifically suggesting something /simple/ that is actually /doable/ at this state of the PTS and chapter, or at least in a short time after release. Tinkering with drop rates is an easy and quick way to minimize the grind, if it is deemed excessive, while keeping the overall system with no changes.
I understand that people have very strong and divisive opinions about jewelrycrafting as a whole, but please do keep this thread on topic, specifically the topic of changing droprates of temper bits to something more generous.

Feanor · May 2018

Something simple that’s actually doable: Adjust the bars and platings it takes. Green and Blue should be very easy to craft. Purple should be harder to obtain, since it’s normally tied to veteran content, but given that purple jewelry also comes with dolmen chests it shouldn’t be a heavy grind. Upgrading to gold quality could stay as is.

Carbonised · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Something simple that’s actually doable: Adjust the bars and platings it takes. Green and Blue should be very easy to craft. Purple should be harder to obtain, since it’s normally tied to veteran content, but given that purple jewelry also comes with dolmen chests it shouldn’t be a heavy grind. Upgrading to gold quality could stay as is.

You know, that's exactly what I suggested, mate =p

Essentially, giving green temper bits a double droprate compared to currently, is exactly the same as cutting down the required upgrade plates from 2 to 1.

However, whereas I'm sure many people would get frustrated if they suddenly changed upgrade mats from one number to another, then to something else after that - tinkering with droprates is much more preferable. They can keep the current amount of temper plates, keep the current 1/10th part of a temper nonsense, but also:

- boost the droprate of green temper bits significantly
- boost the droprates of blues moderately
- boost the droprates of purples somewhat
- boost the droprates of golden temper bits slightly

Feanor · May 2018

@Carbonised

I see the merit of adjusting drop rates. It's a good suggestion.

Mix · May 2018

Wayshuba wrote: »

The easiest way to address it is to make it like people are expecting - to mimic blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking.

1.) Get rid of the 1/10 stuff and just go with the upgrade items dropping whole like tempers do.

2.) With passive upgrades, allow research of necklace and ring at same time.

3.) Add a hireling like you have for 5 out of 6 crafts today.

Anything else is horse-puckey. Might I say that what makes this a particularly bad rub the way it is now is that people are PAYING to get jewelry crafting and they are going to get this poor grind for no good reason at all.

I can say that some people I play with and weren't on PTS were rather very surprised by what ZoS is doing with jewelry crafting because it makes no logical design sense.

/Signed

This is what needs to be done. People will be shocked by the 1/10 thing and then angry. It is unnecessary.

radiostar · May 2018

It's as if they want to delay crafted set jewels until they can change all the popular sets 5pc bonus. NMG is already changing.

Jayne_Doe · May 2018

drake88131 wrote: »

Guessing they won't do anything. It is going live. Just make your peace with it and transmute your jewels and be happy. No reason to grind.

Your post only serves to illustrate the point that the system is far too grindy. It's not the first post I've seen suggesting that the system is fine 'cuz there's no reason to grind when all they want to do is change the traits of their jewelry and upgrade from purple to gold.

But, for people who were actually looking forward to CRAFTING jewelry, it will be a big grind for mats, and not just the upgrade mats - most of the trait mats come in parts as well. In addition, seams share the same spawn as ores.

I agree with the OP that at this point, adjusting drop rates of temper parts would be an easy way to alleviate some of the grind. I don't think it needs to entirely go away, or even be as easy as the current crafts. It is a new system and will have a significant effect on gameplay, so I can see why they'd want it to take a little longer.

However, it may be something that they will adjust over time - at least I hope so. Keeping an eye on the drop rates and on how many people are actually using the system to craft jewelry and not just transmute/upgrade their purple dropped jewelry, will inform them on whether adjustments need to be made.

Also, the CP 160 mat grind was significantly reduced when nodes were added with Orsinium and subsequent DLCs and then again with One Tamriel. I don't recall when the 50% split between Void/Ruby was removed, but that also helped quite a bit. It may be, then that the JC mat grind will be lessened over time. And, the OP's suggestion of adjusting the drop rates of the upgrade mats would be a simple way to make adjustments over time. Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing them do away with the 1/10th thing altogether.

drake88131 · May 2018

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

drake88131 wrote: »

Guessing they won't do anything. It is going live. Just make your peace with it and transmute your jewels and be happy. No reason to grind.

Your post only serves to illustrate the point that the system is far too grindy. It's not the first post I've seen suggesting that the system is fine 'cuz there's no reason to grind when all they want to do is change the traits of their jewelry and upgrade from purple to gold.

But, for people who were actually looking forward to CRAFTING jewelry, it will be a big grind for mats, and not just the upgrade mats - most of the trait mats come in parts as well. In addition, seams share the same spawn as ores.

I agree with the OP that at this point, adjusting drop rates of temper parts would be an easy way to alleviate some of the grind. I don't think it needs to entirely go away, or even be as easy as the current crafts. It is a new system and will have a significant effect on gameplay, so I can see why they'd want it to take a little longer.

However, it may be something that they will adjust over time - at least I hope so. Keeping an eye on the drop rates and on how many people are actually using the system to craft jewelry and not just transmute/upgrade their purple dropped jewelry, will inform them on whether adjustments need to be made.

Also, the CP 160 mat grind was significantly reduced when nodes were added with Orsinium and subsequent DLCs and then again with One Tamriel. I don't recall when the 50% split between Void/Ruby was removed, but that also helped quite a bit. It may be, then that the JC mat grind will be lessened over time. And, the OP's suggestion of adjusting the drop rates of the upgrade mats would be a simple way to make adjustments over time. Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing them do away with the 1/10th thing altogether.

Oh I'm. It saying it's fine. I am saying it sounds like it is absolutely horrid and a bad idea, but that we have to look at the reality of it. I'm saying it is what it is. It's not changing. So, given it is not changing Bc zos never listens, you might as well just do what you can with it to make it have any value and move on. There is no jewelry crafting from what I'm gathering. Glass half full here. Thanks zos for the new transmutation of jewelry!

kojou · May 2018

I'm not going to grind it out either. I will just sell all the materials I get.

Wayshuba · May 2018

drake88131 wrote: »

Oh I'm. It saying it's fine. I am saying it sounds like it is absolutely horrid and a bad idea, but that we have to look at the reality of it. I'm saying it is what it is. It's not changing. So, given it is not changing Bc zos never listens, you might as well just do what you can with it to make it have any value and move on. There is no jewelry crafting from what I'm gathering. Glass half full here. Thanks zos for the new transmutation of jewelry!

I disagree. I think ZoS really needs to look at the reality of it.

People are PAYING to get jewelry crafting. They are EXPECTING to get something similar to the three motif crafts - and why shouldn't they? It has been the design method for crafting for a long time.

Instead, they are going to have another layer added (grains) for no good design reason AT ALL and having some things taken away (research two items and hirelings).

I can't wait to see the serious uproar ZoS is going to be dealing this when this goes live. Remember, they are trying to sell Chapters once a year now. Getting people to pay for something and then giving them something that is frustrating and makes them angry is NOT doing yourself any favors for selling future Chapters.

Some will say they wrote an article (many players don't read them). They are expecting what I wrote above, so the real question that needs to be answered is WHAT was the design reasoning behind making jewelry crafting such a tenuous grind and taking away things common to the motif crafts (which it mimics)?