Tasear wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Balancing the classes is a never ending process. Just be thankful Zos hasn’t streamlined and dumbed down the classes and skills to the point of total homogeneity.

That 1.5% dps isn’t worth it. Trust me.

I wish people would stop peddling the myth that when we talk about class imbalance we're talking about a miniscule difference in DPS. There is a 10k+ difference in DPS potential between some classes in a real trial environment, in part because some classes are badly in need of updating and in part because the new mobility-centered trial design that has prevailed since Morrowind highly favors the mobile classes. This is why the most effective DPS composition for trials is most likely going to be composed of 2-3 classes, with a number of specs (e.g. stamsorc, magplar, any 2H stam build, etc.) being simply unwelcome. That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone who cares about completing content above normal level.

stamsorc, magplar, any 2H stam build,

What do you think makes them unbalanced?

Same effort leads to less DPS than nightblade or DK.

There is plenty of constructive, well-sourced discussion in the various PTS feedback threads from the last few PTS cycles about what specifically makes these specs underperform, but ZOS' only response AFAIK was to say that there would be a future patch in which PVE DPS balance would be addressed. We're still waiting on that patch.

I think the classes are pretty balanced right now from a PvP perspective. You can take any class and beat any other class as long as you play well. As for pve that's going to be impossible to balance because some classes need to function better as tanks and some classes need to function better as DPS. A sorcerer or nightblade should pull higher dps than a warden or templar because they make better healers and tanks

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Balancing the classes is a never ending process. Just be thankful Zos hasn’t streamlined and dumbed down the classes and skills to the point of total homogeneity.

That 1.5% dps isn’t worth it. Trust me.

I wish people would stop peddling the myth that when we talk about class imbalance we're talking about a miniscule difference in DPS. There is a 10k+ difference in DPS potential between some classes in a real trial environment, in part because some classes are badly in need of updating and in part because the new mobility-centered trial design that has prevailed since Morrowind highly favors the mobile classes. This is why the most effective DPS composition for trials is most likely going to be composed of 2-3 classes, with a number of specs (e.g. stamsorc, magplar, any 2H stam build, etc.) being simply unwelcome. That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone who cares about completing content above normal level.

I’ve played my share of World of Warcraft. Blizzard gave in to the philosophy that every class needs to be equally good at whatever role they are used for in raiding. It resulted in a game where everything is so streamlined, dumbed down, and homogenized that nobody even has to think strategically anymore.

Honestly, I’m ok with there being a discrepancy in the effectiveness of certain classes in different roles. You have so many build options to choose from. Appreciate that, use it. Experiment, tinker, try different strategies. Use different combinations of skills, stats, CPs, and gear sets to find what works. Embrace it.

Stop looking to META builds from YouTube and other sites like they’re gospel. You’ll get the puzzle put together right and you’ll do fine in the Trials. That’s the point to this system and to an RPG.

Assess your character’s strengths and weaknesses and find a way to overcome it. That is the real balance. When people ask for “class balance”, they’re really just asking for homogenization of the classes for raiding purposes, and that just makes for a crappy game - do you want green or blue abilities that do 2000 damage with each cast? I don’t. Variety is a good thing and not everything needs to be equal in capability.

This isn't a matter of not knowing my class's strengths and weakness or not thinking hard enough. There is not a way to make a magplar as mobile as a magblade and still perform at the same level. There is not a way to make a magplar pull as much DPS as a magblade. Any amount of work I put into making my class function at its peak would result in even higher performance on a different class. It should not be the case that the same amount of time spent theorycrafting, practicing on a target dummy, and gaining experience in raids will reliably yield 20% more DPS on one class than another.

I'm not asking for homogenization -- I want a unique, class-specific way to pull top-tier DPS on the class I chose. Just like nightblades want a unique, class-specific way to achieve top-tier tank performance, DKs want a unique, class-specific way to achieve top-tier healing, and so on.

I think you’ll be alright, you’ll get there. Keep working at it. Templars don’t need to be as mobile as Nightblades and Wardens, Sorcerors and Dragonknights don’t need to heal and rez as well as Templars. Nightblades and Dragonknights don’t need to do burst damage as well as Sorcerors and Templars. It’s ok for Dragonknights to be the best at tanking.

Rock, paper, scissors. It makes things more interesting. If you want the mobility and sustained DPS of a Nightblade, then play a Nightblade.

Based on your comments, it's unclear to me how familiar you are with the new trials. But please keep the condescending tone out of your future forum posts.

I can’t control the tone you use to read my posts. I think you should keep the condescending tone out of my posts.

That aside, I honestly don’t care if your magplar only does 30k dps as opposed to a magblade doing 36k dps. If you need to change your gear, then change your gear. If you need to change your skill load out, then change your equipped skills. If you need to roll a magblade, then roll a magblade.

It doesn’t change my original statement - class balance will never be achieved, ever, without total homogenization of the classes. Since I would prefer not to see that happen, I’m ok with your dps suffering a little bit compared to other classes. It seems to me that the most productive thing you can do with your time in the game is to continue to theory craft until you close that dps gap - that’s the point to this system.

I’ll take this imperfect but flexible system over WoW’s “what can we do to make the raiders happy” system any day of the week.

yodased wrote: »

Not to *** in your cereal, but you are literally following this games model.

Every couple of months you play for a few weeks, buy the expansion, do the content and move on..

THAT is this games designed experience. Anyone looking for long term lasting progession and changes to balance really need to look at a vertical progression game.

I was going to say that I'm sure I heard someone from Zos state that's exactly the crowd and what they are going for by design. Seems to be working, I myself follow that same pattern, though with more and more good games coming out for ps4, including MMO'S, my "breaks" from eso get longer and longer.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Balancing the classes is a never ending process. Just be thankful Zos hasn’t streamlined and dumbed down the classes and skills to the point of total homogeneity.

That 1.5% dps isn’t worth it. Trust me.

I wish people would stop peddling the myth that when we talk about class imbalance we're talking about a miniscule difference in DPS. There is a 10k+ difference in DPS potential between some classes in a real trial environment, in part because some classes are badly in need of updating and in part because the new mobility-centered trial design that has prevailed since Morrowind highly favors the mobile classes. This is why the most effective DPS composition for trials is most likely going to be composed of 2-3 classes, with a number of specs (e.g. stamsorc, magplar, any 2H stam build, etc.) being simply unwelcome. That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone who cares about completing content above normal level.

I’ve played my share of World of Warcraft. Blizzard gave in to the philosophy that every class needs to be equally good at whatever role they are used for in raiding. It resulted in a game where everything is so streamlined, dumbed down, and homogenized that nobody even has to think strategically anymore.

Honestly, I’m ok with there being a discrepancy in the effectiveness of certain classes in different roles. You have so many build options to choose from. Appreciate that, use it. Experiment, tinker, try different strategies. Use different combinations of skills, stats, CPs, and gear sets to find what works. Embrace it.

Stop looking to META builds from YouTube and other sites like they’re gospel. You’ll get the puzzle put together right and you’ll do fine in the Trials. That’s the point to this system and to an RPG.

Assess your character’s strengths and weaknesses and find a way to overcome it. That is the real balance. When people ask for “class balance”, they’re really just asking for homogenization of the classes for raiding purposes, and that just makes for a crappy game - do you want green or blue abilities that do 2000 damage with each cast? I don’t. Variety is a good thing and not everything needs to be equal in capability.

This isn't a matter of not knowing my class's strengths and weakness or not thinking hard enough. There is not a way to make a magplar as mobile as a magblade and still perform at the same level. There is not a way to make a magplar pull as much DPS as a magblade. Any amount of work I put into making my class function at its peak would result in even higher performance on a different class. It should not be the case that the same amount of time spent theorycrafting, practicing on a target dummy, and gaining experience in raids will reliably yield 20% more DPS on one class than another.

I'm not asking for homogenization -- I want a unique, class-specific way to pull top-tier DPS on the class I chose. Just like nightblades want a unique, class-specific way to achieve top-tier tank performance, DKs want a unique, class-specific way to achieve top-tier healing, and so on.

I think you’ll be alright, you’ll get there. Keep working at it. Templars don’t need to be as mobile as Nightblades and Wardens, Sorcerors and Dragonknights don’t need to heal and rez as well as Templars. Nightblades and Dragonknights don’t need to do burst damage as well as Sorcerors and Templars. It’s ok for Dragonknights to be the best at tanking.

Rock, paper, scissors. It makes things more interesting. If you want the mobility and sustained DPS of a Nightblade, then play a Nightblade.

Based on your comments, it's unclear to me how familiar you are with the new trials. But please keep the condescending tone out of your future forum posts.

I can’t control the tone you use to read my posts. I think you should keep the condescending tone out of my posts.

That aside, I honestly don’t care if your magplar only does 30k dps as opposed to a magblade doing 36k dps. If you need to change your gear, then change your gear. If you need to change your skill load out, then change your equipped skills. If you need to roll a magblade, then roll a magblade.

It doesn’t change my original statement - class balance will never be achieved, ever, without total homogenization of the classes. Since I would prefer not to see that happen, I’m ok with your dps suffering a little bit compared to other classes. It seems to me that the most productive thing you can do with your time in the game is to continue to theory craft until you close that dps gap - that’s the point to this system.

I’ll take this imperfect but flexible system over WoW’s “what can we do to make the raiders happy” system any day of the week.

I'll change my approach and maybe we can see eye to eye that way.

I'm not as worried about class homogenization as you are, but I also think that bringing it up in the way you are misses the point. On the one hand, it's entirely possible to buff underperforming classes while creating less class homogenization than currently exists. On the other hand, it's entirely possible for the classes to come to perform more equitably without homogenizing them. I'll give two examples of what I mean by reference to my main class, but something similar could be said in the case of other classes (especially in the case of stamina classes, where the biggest nerfs in the most recent patch come in the form of ZOS introducing more homogenization into the game and not less, by nerfing stamina penetration sets and making POTL's debuff easier to come by).
- When it comes to magplar sustain in PVE, ZOS could cover a lot of ground simply by updating the class's toolkit. For instance, their main class sustain tool is tied to a self-buff that lasts 1/3 as long as other classes' comparable self-buffs and is ground-based on top of that. This means that in order to sustain their magicka pool, magplars need to waste global cooldowns that other classes don't need to, without gaining any benefit from it that other classes don't. (Other classes get the same self-buff without being tied to a specific location and they get superior sustain through other means). Changing this ability either to give templars some benefit in exchange for tying their sustain mechanic to a clunky and inferior self-buff would actually increase class diversity. On the other hand, changing the ability so that it sticks to the caster wherever they go instead of being tied to a ground-based buff wouldn't make templars behave any differently in trials than they currently do (since mechanics force you to be mobile or die even if your class isn't "supposed" to be mobile), but it would enable them to perform in the way their class mechanics expect them to (i.e. get sustain from Channeled Focus) while also behaving as trial mechanics require them to (i.e., remain highly mobile).
- For magplar DPS, similarly, class toolkit changes would help the class a lot. Templars' two most important damage passives (Burning Light and Piercing Spear) only work if an Aedric Spear ability is slotted, for instance, but the way ZOS has designed the last year or so of content strongly pushes magplars to drop Aedric Spear abilities (except for one on the back bar) in favor of Destruction Staff or Psijic Order abilities. Now there are two alternative solutions to this: (1) buff Puncturing Sweeps so that magplars can achieve top-tier DPS by using it instead of Force Pulse or Elemental Weapon as their main spammable (thus creating less class homogenization than currently exists), or (2) simply allow templars to have the passive damage bonuses already built into their toolkit without slotting Aedric Spear abilities (which wouldn't create any more homogenization than already exists).

I don't play a nightblade anymore. I tried it and did well with it, but I don't enjoy that class very much. I prefer my main, a templar, and I prefer the DPS role. What I'm claiming is (a) that my class choice shouldn't place an artificial limit on how well I'm able to perform at my chosen role, (b) that it currently does, and (c) that that problem can be fixed without creating greater homogeneity among the classes.

If you disagree with (a) then I would worry that you're confusing class performance with class homogeneity, but beyond that I wouldn't know what to say to you -- that would seem like a fairly fundamental disagreement about what makes for good game design. If you disagree with (b) then I hope you're right, and would love to see 6m dummy parses showing that I'm wrong. If you disagree with (c) then I suppose we just disagree about what it would take to fix the underperforming classes.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

It doesn’t change my original statement - class balance will never be achieved, ever, without total homogenization of the classes.

That's a logical fallacy. There absolutely exists a point in anything numbers based (which ESO is) where the numbers all cross on a graph. That would be the point of perfect balance. The tuning, testing, and effort it would require to get to it might be huge. Like 100% of their available dev time for a year huge, but it exists and it is theoretically possible. No homogenization required.

There may be absolutely no way we'll ever see that from ZOS given their track record, but don't sit there and act like it's literally impossible.

I'd be willing to accept even 10% like other games I previously thought were hugely imbalanced.

As it stands, any PvE build not using MA (thank god for the nerf) and a Bow on some bar (usually back bar), you'll be suffering huge dmg loss for no appreciable reason. Balancing that stuff to acceptable levels would only require minimum effort of maybe 1-2 months full time attention (which we'll still never get, but meh...).

Can it be sold in Crown store? If not, then no ETA.

lazerlaz wrote: »

Go play chess where you're only limited by skill.

Chess is imbalanced! I want all the chess pieces to be equally good at every roll! I should be able to move any way I want with any piece!

I am shocked this did not pop up. Truly shocked!

Ley wrote: »

lazerlaz wrote: »

Go play chess where you're only limited by skill.

Chess is imbalanced! I want all the chess pieces to be equally good at every roll! I should be able to move any way I want with any piece!

Chess is easily my favorite tabletop game! Wish they had a Chess mini game in ESO.

If classes are being excluded from content at end game then the balance is off.. and should be fixed asap..

Honestly to level up a character to end game and find out you cannot join others to play all the content is wrong and broken.. That is what customers want fixed yesterday not to be told no ETA..

Its not rocket science. Make all classes viable through the whole game.

Tasear wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Balancing the classes is a never ending process. Just be thankful Zos hasn’t streamlined and dumbed down the classes and skills to the point of total homogeneity.

That 1.5% dps isn’t worth it. Trust me.

I wish people would stop peddling the myth that when we talk about class imbalance we're talking about a miniscule difference in DPS. There is a 10k+ difference in DPS potential between some classes in a real trial environment, in part because some classes are badly in need of updating and in part because the new mobility-centered trial design that has prevailed since Morrowind highly favors the mobile classes. This is why the most effective DPS composition for trials is most likely going to be composed of 2-3 classes, with a number of specs (e.g. stamsorc, magplar, any 2H stam build, etc.) being simply unwelcome. That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone who cares about completing content above normal level.

stamsorc, magplar, any 2H stam build,

What do you think makes them unbalanced?

Templar, DK and Warden skills do not pull their weight like Sorcerer and Nightblade skills do..