ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

To be completely honest, your threads start to trigger me. They’re extremely biased towards your inexperienced view on game balance and have no actual good suggestions in it.

You do realize what lowering the cost of concealed will do right? Melee magblades are strong enough in open world as it is, leave them be. Why the hell would you want to buff something that is already performing fine?

Buff something that preforms just fine? You talking about DKs too right?

I'm really just poking holes in stuff. Like the fact all ranged spammables should totally 100% be the cost of force pulse and melee is supposed to be cheaper yet this one oddly isn't and strife is getting screwed over anyways. I could care less if Con Weapon gets changed or not but it'd be nice since strife is getting screwed

Honestly a small cost reduction is almost a quality of life change rather than a buff and since strife is getting gutted Concealed Weapon could use a bit of love.

But whatever, believe what you like

Maybe remember that melee magblades are fine, and one of the strongest specs. Easily the strongest mag spec. even with "buffed" (really nerfed and partially unnerfed) DKs, and the weird gank sorc thing. Magblade also got a massive mobility buff with shade, since it can now be hidden behind LOS without anyone knowing where it is via hitting, which IMO is a fair buff that reflects the sneaky nature of an NB.

I don't even think strife needs a nerf, but concealed sure as hell doesn't need a buff, it has an instant from stealth stun+offbalance (10% extra damage from exploiter) and a nice extra speed buff, whilst having slightly higher tooltip damage than strife. You also got numerous buffs to merciless, which more than makes up for its increase.

melee mag nb the strongest spec? melee mag nb without zaan lacks the ability to kill anybody halfway decent in this game. I dont know any melee mag nb I would fear without Zaan. While melee mag nb is good at surviving - shields cloak, 2h snare removal, shade. double take - the damage is rly lacking esp NEXT UPDATE - loosing the high staff dmg + hard to sustain spammable results in low damage.

I pick a ranged mag nb, mSorc, mDK any day over a melee mag nb.

@Subversus melee mag nb is the strongest spec .

Minalan wrote: »

With spammable gap closers, chains, and silver leash with no penalty, cooldowns, or cost increase?

Everything is melee range.

The whole idea that ranged is somehow less risky in this game is a serious thinking error. There’s no difference. If there is? Hit one button and fix it. Over and over and over.

This isn’t an MMO where pulls and leaps are on some 30-40 second cooldown, and ranged classes have knock-backs to kick you out of melee range. That doesn’t exist. This isn’t that game. Stop thinking in those terms, it’s flat wrong.

In PVP maybe. There is a huge difference in ranged and melee in PVE. And currently, concelaled weapon is completely useless.

Minalan wrote: »

With spammable gap closers, chains, and silver leash with no penalty, cooldowns, or cost increase?

Everything is melee range.

The whole idea that ranged is somehow less risky in this game is a serious thinking error. There’s no difference. If there is? Hit one button and fix it. Over and over and over.

This isn’t an MMO where pulls and leaps are on some 30-40 second cooldown, and ranged classes have knock-backs to kick you out of melee range. That doesn’t exist. This isn’t that game. Stop thinking in those terms, it’s flat wrong.

In pvp this may be true, but not pve.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

To be completely honest, your threads start to trigger me. They’re extremely biased towards your inexperienced view on game balance and have no actual good suggestions in it.

You do realize what lowering the cost of concealed will do right? Melee magblades are strong enough in open world as it is, leave them be. Why the hell would you want to buff something that is already performing fine?

Buff something that preforms just fine? You talking about DKs too right?

I'm really just poking holes in stuff. Like the fact all ranged spammables should totally 100% be the cost of force pulse and melee is supposed to be cheaper yet this one oddly isn't and strife is getting screwed over anyways. I could care less if Con Weapon gets changed or not but it'd be nice since strife is getting screwed

Honestly a small cost reduction is almost a quality of life change rather than a buff and since strife is getting gutted Concealed Weapon could use a bit of love.

But whatever, believe what you like

Maybe remember that melee magblades are fine, and one of the strongest specs. Easily the strongest mag spec. even with "buffed" (really nerfed and partially unnerfed) DKs, and the weird gank sorc thing. Magblade also got a massive mobility buff with shade, since it can now be hidden behind LOS without anyone knowing where it is via hitting, which IMO is a fair buff that reflects the sneaky nature of an NB.

I don't even think strife needs a nerf, but concealed sure as hell doesn't need a buff, it has an instant from stealth stun+offbalance (10% extra damage from exploiter) and a nice extra speed buff, whilst having slightly higher tooltip damage than strife. You also got numerous buffs to merciless, which more than makes up for its increase.

Why do you have exploiter on a magblade???? And in PvP at that!

Burst, if attacking from stealth you get quite a few pros, and it's not a massive loss in damage otherwise, higher zaan and higher cripple, and in BGs higher path.

BG are no cp.

Aye, keep forgetting. Last patch I had everything the same for PvE and PvP, but too lazy to change. No path then, but zaan melee magblade seems safe.

mDK whip costs about as much as force pulse.
mTemplar Sweep costs almost 3k.
mSorc uses pulse morphs
mWarden bird costs 2.4k
mNB Concealed Weapon costs 2.7k and strife costed 1.8k at the base.

Most spammables costs around the same. Most expensive one being Puncturing Sweep. But hey, strife nerf is the end of the world, yeah? There have been worse nerfs before. I am actually surprised that ZOS did not completely ruin the skill by making it cost 3.5k or something. Maybe Concealed Weapoon can use 200 cost reduction. But no more. It is not some outlier in the grand scheme of things when other skills cost 3k~6k for being magicka.

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

With spammable gap closers, chains, and silver leash with no penalty, cooldowns, or cost increase?

Everything is melee range.

The whole idea that ranged is somehow less risky in this game is a serious thinking error. There’s no difference. If there is? Hit one button and fix it. Over and over and over.

This isn’t an MMO where pulls and leaps are on some 30-40 second cooldown, and ranged classes have knock-backs to kick you out of melee range. That doesn’t exist. This isn’t that game. Stop thinking in those terms, it’s flat wrong.

I dont wanna sound rude, but you should really try playing something other than a sorc and see both sides of the arguement. Gapclosers are nowhere near as safe and spammable as many ppl say, using a gapcloser takes away control from your character and opens you up to burst for almost a second, which is enough to get hit by a merciless proc, frag or anything really if youre gapclosing someone who isnt a potato. Gapclosing at the wrong time can actually get you killed. Ranged builds have a huge advantage over melee unless they get hardcountered by shimmering/wings.

I would put that under L2P issues, especially when the class intern gap closer isn't a charge but a teleport. But what do I know?

Sincerely, a stam sorc that "see both sides of the argument" when chasing streaking sorcs with gap closers and when being unable to get away from gap closer spammers via streak.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

With spammable gap closers, chains, and silver leash with no penalty, cooldowns, or cost increase?

Everything is melee range.

The whole idea that ranged is somehow less risky in this game is a serious thinking error. There’s no difference. If there is? Hit one button and fix it. Over and over and over.

This isn’t an MMO where pulls and leaps are on some 30-40 second cooldown, and ranged classes have knock-backs to kick you out of melee range. That doesn’t exist. This isn’t that game. Stop thinking in those terms, it’s flat wrong.

I dont wanna sound rude, but you should really try playing something other than a sorc and see both sides of the arguement. Gapclosers are nowhere near as safe and spammable as many ppl say, using a gapcloser takes away control from your character and opens you up to burst for almost a second, which is enough to get hit by a merciless proc, frag or anything really if youre gapclosing someone who isnt a potato. Gapclosing at the wrong time can actually get you killed. Ranged builds have a huge advantage over melee unless they get hardcountered by shimmering/wings.

I would put that under L2P issues, especially when the class intern gap closer isn't a charge but a teleport. But what do I know?

Sincerely, a stam sorc that "see both sides of the argument" when chasing streaking sorcs with gap closers and when being unable to get away from gap closer spammers via streak.

Thats why i said "at the wrong time". The point was that gapclosers are not as brainless as many sorc mains want to believe and you can get severely punished for misplaying as a melee build as opposed to ranged.

Minalan wrote: »

With spammable gap closers, chains, and silver leash with no penalty, cooldowns, or cost increase?

Everything is melee range.

The whole idea that ranged is somehow less risky in this game is a serious thinking error. There’s no difference. If there is? Hit one button and fix it. Over and over and over.

This isn’t an MMO where pulls and leaps are on some 30-40 second cooldown, and ranged classes have knock-backs to kick you out of melee range. That doesn’t exist. This isn’t that game. Stop thinking in those terms, it’s flat wrong.

That's not necessarily true. Range still has it's advantages over melee in PvP. Forcing players to gap close you is a huge advantage and most of the time you can stay out of melee range by just backing up.

I see your point as well though if you are fighting more than say 3 people it becomes very difficult to stay at range. But 1v1 or 1v2 range is really strong. It's also very strong if you have a tanky player with you and you are free to cast you skills without being pressured.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

mDK whip costs about as much as force pulse.
mTemplar Sweep costs almost 3k.
mSorc uses pulse morphs
mWarden bird costs 2.4k
mNB Concealed Weapon costs 2.7k and strife costed 1.8k at the base.

Most spammables costs around the same. Most expensive one being Puncturing Sweep. But hey, strife nerf is the end of the world, yeah? There have been worse nerfs before. I am actually surprised that ZOS did not completely ruin the skill by making it cost 3.5k or something. Maybe Concealed Weapoon can use 200 cost reduction. But no more. It is not some outlier in the grand scheme of things when other skills cost 3k~6k for being magicka.

Whip at base costs about 2.4k but with light armor passives it is further reduced.

Force pulse at base is 2.7k

Sweeps costs almost 3k and 2.7k with the light armor passives but that is not something that should be taken into consideration because this skill is a channeled effect

A spammable is spammable. Just like how apple is an apple regardless. 2.7k is hardly a deal breaker and it is in the cheaper range of all magicka skills relatively. Sorcs have been dealing with it, so have been any other magicka builds that involves no good class spammable or range oriented builds. You will adjust. Just like all the magicka builds have.

Actually most sorcs have resorted to flame reach spam with master destro

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

With spammable gap closers, chains, and silver leash with no penalty, cooldowns, or cost increase?

Everything is melee range.

The whole idea that ranged is somehow less risky in this game is a serious thinking error. There’s no difference. If there is? Hit one button and fix it. Over and over and over.

This isn’t an MMO where pulls and leaps are on some 30-40 second cooldown, and ranged classes have knock-backs to kick you out of melee range. That doesn’t exist. This isn’t that game. Stop thinking in those terms, it’s flat wrong.

That's not necessarily true. Range still has it's advantages over melee in PvP. Forcing players to gap close you is a huge advantage and most of the time you can stay out of melee range by just backing up.

I see your point as well though if you are fighting more than say 3 people it becomes very difficult to stay at range. But 1v1 or 1v2 range is really strong. It's also very strong if you have a tanky player with you and you are free to cast you skills without being pressured.

While I agree that range has some benefits over melee, I think it's untrue that you can stay ranged "most of the time". I've seen people follow mounted + rapids players, I've seen people run along streaking sorcs and I know from first hand that once you're into melee range it's absolutely not easy to create enough space to stay out of melee range.

This game has evolved to a point where mobility is key. Kiting is uneasy if you consider how fast and long stam chars can sprint, that gap closers have no cooldown, how prevalent snares are, that knockbacks can only be applied when no cc immunity is on the opponent, that streak has stacking cost and other issues and that there is no such thing as snare immunity for mag toons (at least not without much bigger opportunity costs than for stam chars).

But that said, I'm not unhappy about that. Like I know ZoS, in order to implement the kiting factor, ranged speccs would experience some heavy nerfs. Probably in the damage or defense departement.

Episodic knowledge incoming: I have the most success in OL cyro on a melee stam sorc without a gap closer, min/maj expedition is enough to keep up with everything, especially once a snare is applied to the opponent.

NyassaV wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

With spammable gap closers, chains, and silver leash with no penalty, cooldowns, or cost increase?

Everything is melee range.

The whole idea that ranged is somehow less risky in this game is a serious thinking error. There’s no difference. If there is? Hit one button and fix it. Over and over and over.

This isn’t an MMO where pulls and leaps are on some 30-40 second cooldown, and ranged classes have knock-backs to kick you out of melee range. That doesn’t exist. This isn’t that game. Stop thinking in those terms, it’s flat wrong.

I dont wanna sound rude, but you should really try playing something other than a sorc and see both sides of the arguement. Gapclosers are nowhere near as safe and spammable as many ppl say, using a gapcloser takes away control from your character and opens you up to burst for almost a second, which is enough to get hit by a merciless proc, frag or anything really if youre gapclosing someone who isnt a potato. Gapclosing at the wrong time can actually get you killed. Ranged builds have a huge advantage over melee unless they get hardcountered by shimmering/wings.

I would put that under L2P issues, especially when the class intern gap closer isn't a charge but a teleport. But what do I know?

Sincerely, a stam sorc that "see both sides of the argument" when chasing streaking sorcs with gap closers and when being unable to get away from gap closer spammers via streak.

Thats why i said "at the wrong time". The point was that gapclosers are not as brainless as many sorc mains want to believe and you can get severely punished for misplaying as a melee build as opposed to ranged.

Gap closer are expensive and often times ineffective in the long run. The damage done vs the cost can be brutal. Gap closers are not brainless at all and if you truly think they are then chances are you are (slightly) brainless as well.

But gap closer spam is pretty brainless

That's bc gap closer are designed to be more of an utility skill than an actual dmg spammable. You nullify the advantage of ranged specs, they are often coupled with other utility (garantueed crits, snares, heals, empower, aoe, expedition, stuns, absorb (if you count BoL as a gc) ....) mostly being "undodgeable", or even the possibility to pull someone into your own group. Having ultra low cost or good damage on top of that was overkill and pushed the mentioned brainless spam. No you have to decide if you want utility or damage. Good thing if you ask me.