Vote kick changes to stop the abuse of the dungeon finder system.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2018

Other( see comments)

The changes you mention won’t “fix” people problems.

If I could suggest instead the following:

1. The game should select a role based upon what skills we have assigned and the stats with a basic min per level. Not CP but per level. While it seems limiting, there does seem to be a need for a min qualification due to the decision ZOS made to scale everything up without context to what could possibly not work well.

The goal is to offer an expected experience not a win/win because this doesn’t restrict people from changing in/our skills and gear.

2. As a result of number 1, roles are only changed when we change our skills and or gear but once you enter the queue, your role is locked until you exit the group.

3. There needs to also be a min to enter the queue. This means it should be possible to not qualify for the dungeon queue. This is mainly when someone doesn’t unlock a healing or tanking skill but not limited to DPS lock outs.

*This only applies to the activity finder and would not apply to manual grouping or entering dungeons.

**In manual groups that aren’t full it should force the above qualifications.

@ZOS_RichLambert maybe lurk this thread if it’s something the team is considering to look at again.

Charliff1966 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

When you want to use dungeon finder, join together with a friend.

mongoLC · May 2018

How about just grouping people around the same level cp and adjusting the dungeon for it.
Nothing worse than getting stuck with a 180 who thinks snipe is good dps.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

mongoLC wrote: »

How about just grouping people around the same level cp and adjusting the dungeon for it.
Nothing worse than getting stuck with a 180 who thinks snipe is good dps.

Yes there is: Getting stuck with a 180 who thinks snipe is a tank/healing skill.

Azuramoonstar · May 2018

Other( see comments)

NovaMarx wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

@novamarx Are you on Xbox NA? I forgot to mention that's my platform. I don't know if consoles or PC has a bigger playerbase.

I stick with the guilds I currently have simply because I've rotated through tons of them and they were all even more dead or irrelevant to me. I'm a top-level player in 4-man content on tank and healer and would be on dps as well if I could pull more than 22k due to my argonian-only character spread coupled with moderate arthritis. I get nothing out of the myriad of PVE guilds that cater to "new players and for having fun!". I'm well past all that and am looking for people to run veteran trials with, blast through things to get a gear setup, or go for harder things like skin challenges or motif farming. There's just not a lot of guilds that have a high population with that goal in mind, and of that limited number, all of the ones I've ever been in just have dead guild chats.

I'm a PC gal - and have been playing since closed PC beta. (So I have no real scope of the console populations, but the PC population is vast, alive and kicking.)

People have been abusing the group finder tool since day one. Like others have stated, people tend to use it like their own personal "screening tool", which defeats the purpose of the tool. The tool is susceptible to RNG as any other aspects of the game. When you use it you "run the risk" of being paired with players who are either new/inexperienced, low level/CP, don't live up to your expectations, or whatever else you don't want. And because of this, many players have been mistreated by fellow players - because entitled and/or elitist players use the tool as a sort of "audition" platform to find the "perfect match". This is just wrong, and needs to be addressed in some manner. I know they are adding slight changes to it soon, but IMO it needs a proper rework so that both new and seasoned players can get better experiences when using it.

And alas, I have to disagree with your view on there not being guilds that cater to seasoned players - at least on PC. If you really want a vet guild, then use the forums (or zone chat) to find one that fits you. You kind of have to do your own legwork and be proactive.

sorry but that was the intention of a vote kick system when they were added to MMO. It is to remove negative elements from a run. Which can include players who troll/ not playing well and refuse to try better. People run content to complete it, it isn't fair that one person refuses to try and it snowballs to a group failure. I fully believe not one can be singled out for a wipe, but if one person just refuses to reflect and fix there mistakes they need to go.

It isn't mistreatment, or elitist to use vote kick for that. It is what it was designed for.

Azuramoonstar · May 2018

Other( see comments)

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

First @Violynne, I want to clarify. Fresh perspective is a powerful thing, so I am not trying to discredit the potential here.
The goal should ultimately be for a system that is useful and just for all.

Violynne wrote: »

I'm CP500 right now. People expect this to carry some semblance of knowing what they do.

What do you think my odds are at being kicked because the group has no idea of my experience, but the PUG threw me into a group which wants better.

With any group that's worth a damn, your odds should be small. You should be given opportunity to demonstrate proficiency. You should be given a chance to give/take advice and adjust things based on the group's experience.

Every group situation is different. One method does not fit all. Experienced, or at least reasonable group members will realize this and offer insight how to help the entire group clear. I've helped groups with far lower CP (or no CP, in some cases) clear content they thought they had no chance in hell of clearing. It comes down to patience, useful advice that the group members are willing to entertain, and good explanation of what is happening and why last pull didn't work.

I don't care mind if you've never been 'here' before. I'll happily walk anyone through anything, so long as we're progressing. Any good group / group lead will do the same.

TL;DR; Everyone was brand damned new at one point. Everyone got their ass handed to them by some content. Everyone that is capable within reason deserves that chance. (Everyone that is not, due to level, gear, bad day, etc, deserves to hear the truth about why it won't work, so they can improve and come back later and kick said content's ass.)

Requiring more 'proof' in terms of punch cards would increase the odds of success, I'm sure. What I keep conveying though, is that there are still going to be occasional circumstances where someone meets the requirements you post on a punch card, but still is not able to clear content.

If, after sufficient time and opportunity, that person would not opt to leave on their own accord (which they should be able to do for reason and without penalty), then kick becomes the only option.

An experienced group will know in short order whether a clear is possible. It does no one any good to proceed at that point.
It only serves to discourage and frustrate.

The other caveat with that, is if a group does determine it's not going to work, they will have the courage to not only point it out (not necessarily point fingers), but they will be able to constructively explain why, and perhaps how to benefit in future runs.

CP500 doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing or lack player skill. CP1200 doesn't mean you do, either.

How is your self rating list going to identify the 'same type of player,' exactly? (And which type of player are you referring to? The type that kicks legitimately, the type that abuses kick, or the type that gets kicked because they cannot perform the role or are not beneficial to the group?)

The rating system wouldn't prevent issues in the current group, but it would help with future grouping, in that if your personal rating finds a player spawned in PUG, then you can decide if you wish to remain in the group.

If friends list/guild invites are sufficient in this manner, then the rating system can be omitted, though if the punch list is created, perhaps another identifier to show you want to be in the group?

It would have to be a publicly viewed system - a star rating, if you will.

It would show neutral until a certain number of runs was under your belt in a particular role. (Being new wouldn't automatically slam someone) It would filter outliers. and would have to take an average of votes to show the real result.

Could it still be abused to either extreme? Sure. But after so many runs with different groups, the true nature of a players potential would start to show through.

People had declined this kind of idea for the subjective nature and the ability for people to ultimately skew the system if they tried, either to benefit themselves (plz upvote me) or to troll someone else (let's all downvote him)

The idea of the list is sound. In my experience, though, I find the odds of you getting randomly grouped with someone from a previous run (whether they were awesome or horrible, either one) is very slim. The list would ultimately have to be huge to eventually benefit.

It's why friends list, guild roster, or even a carefully remembered @name of someone worth their salt is worth remembering (and snatching up in zone chat LFG's, when available.)

More often than not, the system works fine as it is. Start penalizing people for proper use of the system and people will simply stop using the system.

I understand this, which is why this proposal isn't something I want to see immediately put in place.

It's a primer, a way to see if there's compromise to both the current system, and improvements.

Blocking people from getting kicked within 10 minutes isn't a reasonable solution to me, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one who gets burned in 11 minutes, proving no amount of timer is going to work.

With each member accepting the group formation as is, then this should remove the burden from anyone having to be kicked, correct?

Communities shouldn't kick players from a group. They should help them get better.

If there was a proper advancement in place, I would absolutely agree to this. However, in the interest of people not wanting any kind of restriction placed on them, there is not (minor exception for CP requirements to enter certain content via RDF)

In present state, you could queue and be placed in Scalecaller or Fang Lair as easily as you could be placed in Banished Cells or City of Ash I.

There are vast differences between these, and everything in between. It would be absolutely unfair to bring you into the vet version of these with your current experience level. It's not a slam. It's not a statement on your potential as a player. It's the reality of the difficulty difference that is present and will filter out players, with no help from the group.

The mechanics will determine the outcome (or lack thereof).

This was once taken care of indirectly by Zone leveling. Since 1T, that's no longer really an option, so the required 'progression' and all it was supposed to teach in the process, is no longer mandatory.

It is a failure of the game that there are essentially no requirements prior to entry, and the only options are clear, don't clear, run in place for four hours, or kick/get kicked.

From my perspective, it seems there's a small segment of dungeon runners who don't care for this. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but for PUGs, not knowing this going in seems to be the problem.

If someone using RDF thinks they're getting bad group combinations now, I shudder to think how something like this would affect the end result.

How is selecting one's group a bad thing?

It would lessen the pool form which people were chosen.

If it resulted in grouping with like minded people of similar skill, then it would likely be a good thing. It would also limit, in some cases, the higher level, higher experienced, good players that do want to help people improve. I think people would self categorize even more and the pool would shrink.

Punishments aside (in fact, let's just remove them completely from this discussion), wouldn't options of player choice be better than randomly throwing people together?

That's the point of my proposal: giving choice to join groups they feel may (key here!) be better. It's not 100% perfect, but clearly there's a need for improvement.

I can't imagine what others, reading this who are also inexperienced to dungeons, would be thinking.

Agendas. Everyone has them. They're all different. So group based on them, rather than random luck. That's the key to my post.

What I'd like for you, especially to take out of this is keep doing what you're doing.

Keep your positive outlook and your interest in making things better.

Sometimes you have to disregard the "Pro's" and take what those of us that have been here since the beginning of time with a grain of salt.

Any player worth their weight will be willing to be open to new ideas and will to discuss the how's and why's of their opinions.

TL;TL;DR; Just because you are new to dungeons doesn't make you kick worthy. Any player prejudging you as such is a waste of your time, not the other way around

Keep at it, and good luck!

a party finder function wouldn't lessen the duty finder pool at all. ff14 has both, and neither is small.

Dapper Dinosaur · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Thinking about it further, literally the only reason I use the activity finder to do normal dungeons is because some of the things I need to queue for have mechanics like the harvester in WGT instantly resetting when she locks me in a cage if I'm alone. If no dungeons had things like that where they could all be solo'd, I'd only ever use the RGF on non-DLC dungeons.

heaven13 · May 2018

I think rather than penalize everyone for kicking, if YOU are kicked before first pull, your penalty should not be applied. You're not being kicked for failure to perform (since you haven't had a chance yet) so you shouldn't be penalized for using the group finder as intended.

It would be nice to have check boxes on the group finder - speed run, hard mode, pledge. If you tick pledge, for example, you're not going to be placed in a partially finished dungeon. If you tick hard mode, expect to do hard mode and be grouped with other players intending hm as well. This would, however, introduce the problem of people not ticking hm for faster queue times, same as fake roles, and then kicking people who didn't want to do that type of run in the first place and thus didn't select it.

A couple of weeks ago, I was PUGing pledges for dailies. I got grouped with some low CP (all under 200, one was under 160) for Darkshade II normal. We cleared it without any wipes, though we had a couple of deaths and DPS wasn't super high. Still, pretty good group.

They asked at the end if I wouldn't mind healing for them for normal Falkreath Hold. Agreed and in we ported. Only 1 of them had done it before (once) when it first released. So I let them know I would explain as we went. They waited before each fight, asked questions if they weren't sure, and were overall awesome. We didn't wipe a single time and all of them actively paid attention to mechanics. By the end, the one had hit cp160 and I'd added to my friends list. Would be completely happy to run with that group again.

I've also had instances where *I* am the noob. I was doing pledges on my tank for the first time and though I am above 500CP, there are some dungeons I've only done on my healer. I was always careful to inform people when we ported in that I hadn't tanked before (I always inform if I haven't done one or if I am doing quest) and offered to leave if the other players wanted a more experienced tank, especially on the DLC dungeons even though they were normal. I always was met with "nah, dude, it's cool, it's normal, let's do it!" and off we went with no issues. Of course, my high CP might have protected me somewhat.

Anyway, the attitude of yourself and the people you're grouped with can make or break a group. You might end up running with some great players you would have initially written off. Be honest, be kind, be courteous (this includes not fake queuing). And if you get kicked solely based on lack of CP before you even hit first trash mobs, screw those people because they are none of the above.

Ardan147 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

If they actually did this it would make the dungeon finder all but useless. So what would happen, is if you queued for a vet dungeon and ended up with someone in the group who was complete dead weight, and then their replacement turned out to be no better, you could forget about actually finishing the dungeon. And then once you finally gave up you would have to wait 30 minutes before you could even queue again for another attempt, and have to hope that the same thing doesn't happen again. So what would happen as a result is fewer and fewer players actually using the dungeon finder, making it all but impossible to find a group with three other players capable of performing their role at a level necessary to finish the dungeon.

I've been in dungeon groups where we went through multiple tanks because none of them could tank worth crap, but we ultimately made it through the dungeon. If this ridiculous and draconian rule had been in place, these dungeon runs would have all ended in failure and just been a waste of time and effort for nothing.

Sting864 · May 2018

Other( see comments)

craigr02 wrote: »

When it comes to dungeons, i want the ability to kick people who arent doing their part or role, especially on vet mode. Ive played with a few people who aren't very high cp that are decent, but a lot of people arent good. Even after explaining mechanics, some people just dont understand.
When I dps its not as bad, because i can solo almost all the non dlc dungeons, but when i heal its different.

Sick brag, brah.... your mechanics don't work with everyone... I was 2-manning a pledge and the other guy said, "You need to re-allocate your CP to this constellation..." Which would have worked, if I used is build... If he used my build, he needed to re-allocate his CP to a different constellation... Bottom-line... I found a replacement player, not a replacement build... So your "advice" may only work for you....

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

a party finder function wouldn't lessen the duty finder pool at all. ff14 has both, and neither is small.

We'll assume that people that would get kicked would be the same as never having been queued in the first place.

Now:

300 people queue for Vet. 100 of them are CP600. 100 of them are CP200. 100 of them are CP10.
All three have a queue with 300 people in the mix

After:

300 of the same people queue for Vet
- 100 of those people filter CP600+ (That leaves 100 people for their queue, which is fine, as it's what they wanted in the first place.) 50 of those people would have still tried to run a 200+ run for some content. 20 of those would have attempted a CP10+ run. So before, they would have had between 100 and 300 people to group with. Now it's 100.
- 100 more filter 200+ 50 of those people would have still tried a CP10+ run. Before they would have had between 100-250 people to group with. Now it's 100.
- Then there's the CP99's. Before, they would have had 170 people to group with. Now they have 100.

Filtering out will certainly lower the numbers available, moreso for the lesser experienced, lower CP groups than for the higher groups (and the higher groups won't be affected, because that's the very reason they're filtering in the first place.)

Of course the pool will be smaller - that's what filtering does.

Too small to get a complete? Maybe, maybe not. But when your long queue becomes even longer, because people have removed themselves from it, it will become obvious which group this would negatively affect the most.

Lynx7386 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

If more of these pug morons were capable of doing the role they signed up for, maybe we wouldn't have to kick them.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Sting864 wrote: »

craigr02 wrote: »

When it comes to dungeons, i want the ability to kick people who arent doing their part or role, especially on vet mode. Ive played with a few people who aren't very high cp that are decent, but a lot of people arent good. Even after explaining mechanics, some people just dont understand.
When I dps its not as bad, because i can solo almost all the non dlc dungeons, but when i heal its different.

Sick brag, brah.... your mechanics don't work with everyone... I was 2-manning a pledge and the other guy said, "You need to re-allocate your CP to this constellation..." Which would have worked, if I used is build... If he used my build, he needed to re-allocate his CP to a different constellation... Bottom-line... I found a replacement player, not a replacement build... So your "advice" may only work for you....

And yet the dungeon mechanics don't change for anyone.

Funny, that?

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2018

Absolutely not!

I'm 110% on the side of the "small guy" here, and I think that people who kick are a*holes.
My motto is "if you have expectations, don't PUG".

That being said... this motto includes "if you expect people NOT to be a*holes, don't PUG".

I believe we're all adult and tall and strong enough to recognize when we're being grouped with 1 or more of those a*holes, and leave or be kicked when it happens, and suck it up and wait for regrouping with, hopefully, nice people. And most people in ESO are nice.

The way the group finder is designed currrently is imho sufficient, and we cannot and should not expect from a computer system to filter out a*holes completely for us. We can do that ourselves.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

All I say is that those of you adamant on the "Never Kick!' side of things will know the exact moment the epiphany happens and you realize there are indeed circumstances that warrant a kick or a disband.

Hope doesn't clear dungeons.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

So from your perspective, the person who new or a casual player should find a guild/friends to run dungeons with. And the "pros" who play 8 hours a day or been playing for thousands of hours since since launch should get to use it as a tool to optimize their dungeon runs?

Sounds like you have it backwords. You want optimized speed runs with everyone knowing what they are doing and pulling a zillion dps then you need to be running with a regular group not in a PUG. PUGs are great for casuals, people with limited time, and newbies but the system is being ruined by impatient self centered elitists who use it as a screening tool because they are to lazy to put a group a together of people they find acceptable to run dungeons with.

RDF should be able to be used by all and it's not unreasonable to expect similarly experienced tier of player when using RDF.

A legit "Group me with similar tier," "Group me with these goals in mind," "Group me with lower experienced," or "Group me with whatever comes up" should all be an option.

You don't get to restrict what people use it for either. No one does. It's a public tool intended for public access. You don't get to put the only newer, non HM, no Speed Run restrictions on their either.

It's called Random for a reason - you get what you get. If you are looking for a specific purpose, whether a casual run with a less experienced group, a learning run, or a ND SR HM full achievements-in-one-go run, then premake your group.

There are legit times when it's not the l33t you're making it out to be that someone popping up in RDF is not going to be capable of a clear.

That CP100 tank isn't going to knock out vScalecaller. Doesn't matter how much good will, group experience, or hope their is. It's realistically not happening. To force it, via penalties, forced acceptance, etc won't change that.

TL;DR; The problem isn't the kick. The problem is that you can place filters on your request to help alleviate some of this upfront. The other problem is there are no prerequisites beyond level. If you can access it, you can enter it.

You should be able to have half a chance at clearing it, having completed other requirements prior.

That is not an unreasonable suggestion that would benefit all tiers of players and groups.

Collectively beating your heads against the wall in impossible content (due a number of factors) helps no one.

Your taking the problem, agreeing that the dungeon finder should be usable by all, but your ok with the current abusive system with it.Because its their right to kick a bunch of people until they get one they want. But those other people that got kicked dont have the right to do the content.

Also i believe vdlcs have a cp 300 requirement. or maybe it was cp160. So CP100 running it isnt realistic anyway. But more to the point the devs should decide who is qualified to run a dungeon they created, not players. Players take it on themselves to decide who is worthy of doing content and who isnt, and that is wrong. It is wrong because they set requirements far higher than what is actually needed, but they refuse to run with anyone who isnt at least as good as them because if it takes 5 extra minutes to run the dungeon... then that is just completely unacceptable.

The only people who should be deciding if someone meets the requirements to do certain content are the people who created the content, which is absolutely none of us. And if your group of people isnt satisfactory to your requirements, you leave, not kick who you think is the weakest link. Why? Because if a weak link needs to be removed and replaced with someone better, that tells me your group is not very good. It cant compensate for a player that isnt as strong as the rest of the members, that tells me its not the player that needs to learn to play, its the group who thinks they know how to play but are unable to compensate for a newbie or casual that can only pull X DPS.

You know what i do when i a group that is a bit to weak to beat something? I kick the whole group and find me some dank elites... oh wait, no....I switch to support dps mode and tell the group they are going to have make a bit more effort to keep themselves healed, and i lay down extra DPS while popping. And then...then the strangest thing happens. A dps says "well i have vigor so i can help heal!" and the other dps says " I got a self heal on X(damage) ability, i can use that more and mostly keep myself healed!" And the tank says, " I can switch to 2h after i get aggro and then just switch back to tank as needed".

And then you know what happens? We overcome the obstacle( usually) as a team. You see i said "team" not " four players soloing in harmony". But these players arent even given a chance to step up. Many times they arent given a shot at the first trash mob. " Oh he is getting quest, screw that! BOOT!"

As i said before if you have requirements outside of those required by the game to run dungeons, I dont care what they are, if they are outside the games requirements, then you should either make your own group and run dungeons or just suck it up and play with who you are given.

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The only people who should be deciding if someone meets the requirements to do certain content are the people who created the content, which is absolutely none of us.

You are absolutely correct. The devs who are in charge of the game and decide the requirements for dungeons have also given us a system to remove problem players. They have decided that the current implementation is the proper solution to deal with those issues. If "none of us" are capable of deciding what requirements are needed for a dungeon, doesn't that make this thread pointless? By your own admission, you are not qualified to propose who can and can't run a dungeon.

JinMori · May 2018

Absolutely not!

I only agree with 3, but you know that you can already do that? Just screenshot and send it to zos if that happens.

Other then that, no, if someone is bad, like very bad,, then kick is incoming, sorry, practice better in normal, and then go to vet.

Kali_Despoine · May 2018

I have puged many a dungeon and I have found that most of the player base needs carried, don't want to learn mechanics and are just plain bad at what they think they are good at.
When my back hurts to much I will vote to kick.
Wear PvP gear in PvE and I will again vote to kick.
Get good, L2P and don't bite off more than u can chew... i.e. don't do pug vet @ 10-150cp and don't do vetDLC while under 300cp.

JinMori · May 2018

Absolutely not!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I've never been kicked, nor have I ever seen a group start a vote to kick someone for no reason. I see no reason to change the system. It's there to let you remove toxic players from your game.

If you're frequently getting kicked from PUGs, there is probably a reason why, and it starts with you.

1. You're probably toxic
2. You might not be performing at an adequate level (listen to advice from other players if they provide it + look up builds if you're struggling)

Yes, Jesus Christ, people just don't get it, most of these "elitist" don't kick you just because, there is a reason to it.

Admit it guys, you would want this system so you can get you butt carried through the dungeon if you manage to get some good players, because that's what it is at the end of the day, you don;t wanna put the effort, but you still wanna complete the dungeon, since you can't do that, you wanna force zos to make adjustments to the kick system, and then you know what's gonna happen?

What will happen is, just like communism where the rich get out, all the good player will start to make their own groups and never ever use lfg, and all that remains will be bad players, so think carefully about what you wish for....

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

JinMori wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I've never been kicked, nor have I ever seen a group start a vote to kick someone for no reason. I see no reason to change the system. It's there to let you remove toxic players from your game.

If you're frequently getting kicked from PUGs, there is probably a reason why, and it starts with you.

1. You're probably toxic
2. You might not be performing at an adequate level (listen to advice from other players if they provide it + look up builds if you're struggling)

Yes, Jesus Christ, people just don't get it, most of these "elitist" don't kick you just because, there is a reason to it.

Admit it guys, you would want this system so you can gett you butt carried through the dungeon if you manbage to ghet some good players, because that's what it is at the end of the day, you don;t wanna put the effort, but you still wanna complete the dungeon, since you can't do that, you wanna force zos to make adjustments to the kick system, amd then you know what's gonna happen?

What will happen is, just like communism where the rich get out, all the good player will start to make their own groups and never use lfg, and all that remains will be bad players, so think carefully about what you wish for....

What would happen is that the 3 players who now can't kick the other one will all just log off and eat the penalty on those toons while they just swap to 3 fresh toons to queue again. The end result is the same for the player that is left in the dungeon alone. They basically still get kicked.

JinMori · May 2018

Absolutely not!

redspecter23 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I've never been kicked, nor have I ever seen a group start a vote to kick someone for no reason. I see no reason to change the system. It's there to let you remove toxic players from your game.

If you're frequently getting kicked from PUGs, there is probably a reason why, and it starts with you.

1. You're probably toxic
2. You might not be performing at an adequate level (listen to advice from other players if they provide it + look up builds if you're struggling)

Yes, Jesus Christ, people just don't get it, most of these "elitist" don't kick you just because, there is a reason to it.

Admit it guys, you would want this system so you can gett you butt carried through the dungeon if you manbage to ghet some good players, because that's what it is at the end of the day, you don;t wanna put the effort, but you still wanna complete the dungeon, since you can't do that, you wanna force zos to make adjustments to the kick system, amd then you know what's gonna happen?

What will happen is, just like communism where the rich get out, all the good player will start to make their own groups and never use lfg, and all that remains will be bad players, so think carefully about what you wish for....

What would happen is that the 3 players who now can't kick the other one will all just log off and eat the penalty on those toons while they just swap to 3 fresh toons to queue again. The end result is the same for the player that is left in the dungeon alone. They basically still get kicked.

Or that. I think both would happen, because there would still be a very high chance that you get in a very bad group with this system, and you can do nothing about it

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

So from your perspective, the person who new or a casual player should find a guild/friends to run dungeons with. And the "pros" who play 8 hours a day or been playing for thousands of hours since since launch should get to use it as a tool to optimize their dungeon runs?

Sounds like you have it backwords. You want optimized speed runs with everyone knowing what they are doing and pulling a zillion dps then you need to be running with a regular group not in a PUG. PUGs are great for casuals, people with limited time, and newbies but the system is being ruined by impatient self centered elitists who use it as a screening tool because they are to lazy to put a group a together of people they find acceptable to run dungeons with.

RDF should be able to be used by all and it's not unreasonable to expect similarly experienced tier of player when using RDF.

A legit "Group me with similar tier," "Group me with these goals in mind," "Group me with lower experienced," or "Group me with whatever comes up" should all be an option.

You don't get to restrict what people use it for either. No one does. It's a public tool intended for public access. You don't get to put the only newer, non HM, no Speed Run restrictions on their either.

It's called Random for a reason - you get what you get. If you are looking for a specific purpose, whether a casual run with a less experienced group, a learning run, or a ND SR HM full achievements-in-one-go run, then premake your group.

There are legit times when it's not the l33t you're making it out to be that someone popping up in RDF is not going to be capable of a clear.

That CP100 tank isn't going to knock out vScalecaller. Doesn't matter how much good will, group experience, or hope their is. It's realistically not happening. To force it, via penalties, forced acceptance, etc won't change that.

TL;DR; The problem isn't the kick. The problem is that you can place filters on your request to help alleviate some of this upfront. The other problem is there are no prerequisites beyond level. If you can access it, you can enter it.

You should be able to have half a chance at clearing it, having completed other requirements prior.

That is not an unreasonable suggestion that would benefit all tiers of players and groups.

Collectively beating your heads against the wall in impossible content (due a number of factors) helps no one.

Your taking the problem, agreeing that the dungeon finder should be usable by all, but your ok with the current abusive system with it.Because its their right to kick a bunch of people until they get one they want. But those other people that got kicked dont have the right to do the content.

No, they don't. But since there is no justification why to kick required by the game, it's an impossible to solve problem.

I am the least likely to kick without cause. I know that CP's and time in game does not equate to player skill (or lack thereof), so I'll always give someone a chance to prove themselves unless they show they cannot.

There's a huge difference between "Now this dungeon is going to take 10 extra minutes" and "There's no way in hell this group is ever going to clear."

It doesn't take the end-boss to determine that.

Also i believe vdlcs have a cp 300 requirement. or maybe it was cp160. So CP100 running it isnt realistic anyway. But more to the point the devs should decide who is qualified to run a dungeon they created, not players. Players take it on themselves to decide who is worthy of doing content and who isnt, and that is wrong. It is wrong because they set requirements far higher than what is actually needed, but they refuse to run with anyone who isnt at least as good as them because if it takes 5 extra minutes to run the dungeon... then that is just completely unacceptable.

It was 160. With next patch, it will be 300.

Insert irony: I've cleared content on my alt account that some Max CP players have not, yet after the patch (for a short while) I will not be able to queue for content I have already proven myself with.

Again, there used to be a progression when dungeons were Zone leveled. You could walk into Elden Hollow II as a level 20, but you were probably going to get wiped at the front door. On the other hand if you could clear it 20 levels early, it was a testament to your skill.

None of that is required anymore, because people complained when they couldn't access content they had zero chance of clearing.

Experience shows what it takes to clear content. It's not being a *** when experience shows there won't be enough heals/survivability to get it done.

There are DPS checks in the game. There are mechanics checks in the game. Liking them or not does not change that they exist.

The only people who should be deciding if someone meets the requirements to do certain content are the people who created the content, which is absolutely none of us. And if your group of people isnt satisfactory to your requirements, you leave, not kick who you think is the weakest link. Why? Because if a weak link needs to be removed and replaced with someone better, that tells me your group is not very good. It cant compensate for a player that isnt as strong as the rest of the members, that tells me its not the player that needs to learn to play, its the group who thinks they know how to play but are unable to compensate for a newbie or casual that can only pull X DPS.

You know what i do when i a group that is a bit to weak to beat something? I kick the whole group and find me some dank elites... oh wait, no....I switch to support dps mode and tell the group they are going to have make a bit more effort to keep themselves healed, and i lay down extra DPS while popping. And then...then the strangest thing happens. A dps says "well i have vigor so i can help heal!" and the other dps says " I got a self heal on X(damage) ability, i can use that more and mostly keep myself healed!" And the tank says, " I can switch to 2h after i get aggro and then just switch back to tank as needed".

And then you know what happens?

Yeah, no one ends up doing their job and you likely get nowhere.

Please tell me how you switch things up across four roles to burn Grobull, for instance, when previously it took several minutes to clear trash mobs?

If you're doing more healing, dps, or tanking, you're doing less of the other thing. (Oh, and when someone doing even less of the thing they queued to do dies, that leaves three other people doing even less of the less they were doing.)

You're describing a bandaide, not a fix.

We overcome the obstacle( usually) as a team. You see i said "team" not " four players soloing in harmony". But these players arent even given a chance to step up. Many times they arent given a shot at the first trash mob. " Oh he is getting quest, screw that! BOOT!"

As i said before if you have requirements outside of those required by the game to run dungeons, I dont care what they are, if they are outside the games requirements, then you should either make your own group and run dungeons or just suck it up and play with who you are given.

And now you're going to extremes, which is as much a problem as the original complaint.

The Devs do decide what it takes. You don't have the right to be upset when the game sets a standard that you or your group can't meet.

The problem with your method of adjustment? When the tank has to add a little healing, and the healer has to add a little dps, all of a sudden the primary role gets less attention. That's just diluting the problem or spreading it around.

That doesn't help the group improve either. That may get you a lucky clear. It generally won't be repeatable, and it's that kind of thing that gets you kicked, not prevents it.

You see, the players do get to have a say, because it's not just one person's time involved, it's four.

It's not unreasonable to expect to be given fair chance. It's equally not unreasonable to expect groupmembers to carry on towards an impossible, or at highly improbable task.

Kalgert · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Yeah, I don't agree with any of these ideas.

1) If the party member is wretched bile incarnate (Be it a speedrunner or a terrible person), ten minutes is simply too long to get anyone kicked out.

2) Oh, okay, end up dealing with someone who could be equally as bad as the person was kicked out. Can either be poetic justice to the party that was kicking the person out, or a death sentence, depending on what kind of people the kicking group is.

3) Verbal abuse should be bannable in general, not just in dungeons.

4) I have no words for this to properly describe the logic of this one. But let me say this:

You are a *** idiot.

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

redspecter23 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The only people who should be deciding if someone meets the requirements to do certain content are the people who created the content, which is absolutely none of us.

You are absolutely correct. The devs who are in charge of the game and decide the requirements for dungeons have also given us a system to remove problem players. They have decided that the current implementation is the proper solution to deal with those issues. If "none of us" are capable of deciding what requirements are needed for a dungeon, doesn't that make this thread pointless? By your own admission, you are not qualified to propose who can and can't run a dungeon.

Except you're forgetting one important thing... the Devs already have set down minimum requirements for what is needed to enter specific dungeons at both Normal and Veteran levels, Vanilla and DLC. And no, it's not 300 CP's, don't be ridiculous. It's not even 160 CP's. No one getting into a dungeon through the Finder is doing so outside of the criteria that the Devs set down. It's not your job to police and screen the Dungeon Finder, that's something the Devs have already done. So if you want something above and beyond what the Devs have established as THEIR criteria, you had best go and make your own group outside of the Dungeon Finder.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

All I say is that those of you adamant on the "Never Kick!' side of things will know the exact moment the epiphany happens and you realize there are indeed circumstances that warrant a kick or a disband.
Hope doesn't clear dungeons.

This might very well be true, but it's also true that Manners Maketh Man, and there's no excuse for being an utter boor. Politeness never cost you anything.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

PUG setup should be based on a punch sheet. Those looking to run a dungeon would set up a PUG request, and then fill in requirements for the slots the maker wants filled. For example, they may create 3 slots of DPS, or 2 slots DPS, 1 slot Healer, etc.

Example of a punch sheets:
First one:
Slot Leader: Tank - CP720 - 6 runs of Veteran
Slot 2: Healer - CP720 - Minimum of 2 runs of Veteran
Slot 3: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs of Veteran
Slot 1: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs Veteran
Purpose: Loot

Second one:
Slot Leader: DPS - CP50 - No experience
Slot 2: Any - no minimum
Slot 3: Any - no minimum
Slot 4: Any - no minimum
Purpose: Learning/Experience

This would allow players to apply to a punch sheet. The PUG maker can then opt to accept or deny the recipient.

The game would verify the number of runs done by the player to ensure the minimum is met.

Once the PUG is formed, no group members can be kicked. If the leader leaves because they're dissatisfied with their selection, a 1 week penalty would be applied. PUG leaders should never quit the group they personally selected.

Players should also be allowed a personal rating list of every other player they grouped with. They can then rate the other players from 1-5 stars, so that if they see these players grouped in future PUGs, they can determine if they want to join with that player again and the star system will remind them of their worth to the group

This list is only viewable to the player and does not affect the PUG system nor is it a rating average system. Each rating is visible only to the person's list. This will help people so they don't join a group with a player they didn't like.

Once the PUG is formed, the punch list is set up to accept. Each player must either accept the group or leave it (without punishment, as this is done before entering the dungeon). Once all accepted, the group is formed.

With this system, everyone takes responsibility for their own grouping. Vote kicks are removed from the game, and anyone who leaves the group is served a 48 hour penalty. Sorry, but if you have a bad internet connection and got kicked that way, you have to accept this punishment because a bad internet connection isn't fair to the rest of the group.

This system would be fair to everyone.

Randomizing a group of people and hoping for a good outcome has never worked out well.

It is an interesting alternate Idea. The basis of your idea is basically like a group finder tool instead of a forced luck of the draw that the dungeon finder is now. So basically i queue for say N Fungal Grotto II as group leader and i set requirements of what a group member must meet to queue into my group and when they request to join, i can either accept or deny them. But im stuck with the group i picked because i am the one that set the requirements. Is that pretty much the jest of it?

If so it would be a good in addition to the random dungeon finder. The thing i like about random is i like the luck of the draw rather than people who meet some ridiculous requirement. Its challenging not playing with a bunch of people who ran dungeon 400 times and people of different skill levels. I like a challenge. Easy stuff bores me. But it sounds like it would be a good tool to have...for everyone.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

Then, no offense, but you can't possibly understand either extreme of the situation.

The fact that you're asking for 48hr / 1wk penalties makes this quite obvious.

And the odds of getting the same individual somewhere down the line in another random is minor - the client-viewable only list would have to be huge, and would probably never get accessed.

The really good bad ones get /ignored. The really good ones get guild invites and friend requests.

On the contrary, not having used the system @Violynne has a very unique view. Its not as biased as people who have used the dungeon finder system. You know, the whole outside perspective thing. Sure the ban needs major adjustment. I think a 15 minute quit penalty or so is fine. You could add a max number of times you can quit your own group per day or something.

Hard to be biased when you are unfamiliar with any situation.

You can be experienced without bias - there are legit circumstances where this functionality is necessary.

Being in one of those situations and suddenly realizing the need and debating on whether you're ready for your 1 week penalty is the type of thing that only experience can provide.

Ignorance doesn't mean the impossibility of no good ideas, but it doesn't change that it's still ignorance. (Which,by itself is not a bad thing, before anyone gets all up-in-arms).

The time was a little excessive, it doesnt mean the whole idea should be trashed. I thought it was a good idea, personally. It just needed some adjustments. The principle was sound though.

@Merlin13KAGL Concerning this post:

First @Violynne, I want to clarify. Fresh perspective is a powerful thing, so I am not trying to discredit the potential here.
The goal should ultimately be for a system that is useful and just for all.

You seem like you are willing to give people a reasonable chance and that is great. You are not part of the problem, but leaving it as is, is not the solution either. The system is heavily abused and ive met some really newbie friendly nice vet players that are really helpful in dungeons. The problem is they are choked out by an excessive amount of *** that abuse the system. And that needs to stop.

You have to be really bad for me to vote to kick you. I mean you cant just be bad at DPS or tanking or healing. You have to be not trying or offline. So you have to be like completely dead weight before i will consider kicking you. It has to be major with no hope for improvement. Not " you only do X dps, your gone". But there are so many like that, that will literally look at your weapon/armor( or if your lucky wait to see what abilities you use on the trash) and be like nope, not meta, your gone.

mongoLC wrote: »

How about just grouping people around the same level cp and adjusting the dungeon for it.
Nothing worse than getting stuck with a 180 who thinks snipe is good dps.

So here is the problem. The problem isnt that someone thinks snipe is good dps, the problem is you dont think it is, therefore they are bad and shouldnt be allowed in your PUG. I can parse 18k using snipe on a 3 mil dummy and only using injection, LA and HA . 2 abilities and normal attacks. Open world im doing ST damage of 30-40k on normal mobs( not mudcrabs) and i only use a bow. Here is the kicker... im not using a maelstrom bow. Im using a hundings bow. 3 pieces of my gear( excluding jewels which are also purple) is purple. Im not using poison, and im using trash stam pots only. And a bonus FYI, i do it all on one bar. My back bar is utility. Takes like 15 seconds to kill a mudcrab on my back bar.

The irony is i watched someone solo a trial boss with 22k dps. So all these inflated numbers that elitist throw out of you must do 30k or 40k or 50k dps to do content is complete BS. Just like in wow and rift where elitist say the same thing and average people with average dps complete the content every day, ESO is no different. You dont need to do 30k dps to run content in this game. A group doing 25k dps per damage dealer is sufficient and you can get through most content with 20k per damage dealer. That whole 30k-40k dps is nonsense elitists players make up because they have a superiority complex and want to feel like the average person isnt good enough to complete content while they are.

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The only people who should be deciding if someone meets the requirements to do certain content are the people who created the content, which is absolutely none of us.

You are absolutely correct. The devs who are in charge of the game and decide the requirements for dungeons have also given us a system to remove problem players. They have decided that the current implementation is the proper solution to deal with those issues. If "none of us" are capable of deciding what requirements are needed for a dungeon, doesn't that make this thread pointless? By your own admission, you are not qualified to propose who can and can't run a dungeon.

Except you're forgetting one important thing... the Devs already have set down minimum requirements for what is needed to enter specific dungeons at both Normal and Veteran levels, Vanilla and DLC. And no, it's not 300 CP's, don't be ridiculous. It's not even 160 CP's. No one getting into a dungeon through the Finder is doing so outside of the criteria that the Devs set down. It's not your job to police and screen the Dungeon Finder, that's something the Devs have already done. So if you want something above and beyond what the Devs have established as THEIR criteria, you had best go and make your own group outside of the Dungeon Finder.

Don't get me wrong. I definitely advocate forming your own group for the best results. I've always said dungeon finder should be an absolute last resort to fill in missing party members instead of the primary method of filling groups. Dungeon finder with its current implementation does exactly what it promises to do. If finds 4 people and puts them in a group. It offers no guarantee of player quality or mannerisms. It guarantees no success. Anyone looking specifically for any of these qualities should try to find other players in guild, friends or even zone, then fill in the gaps with group finder.

The only thing the new rules by the OP would do it force players on both sides to find more interesting ways to mess with players in group finder. Inadequate players would get a free pass at being carried until the other 3 are forced to quit instead of removing the one problem player. Of course the kick system is abused by some people. However, this newly proposed system just switches the abuse potential to the other side. It doesn't solve a problem, it just changes which side is affected by it.

JinMori · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

PUG setup should be based on a punch sheet. Those looking to run a dungeon would set up a PUG request, and then fill in requirements for the slots the maker wants filled. For example, they may create 3 slots of DPS, or 2 slots DPS, 1 slot Healer, etc.

Example of a punch sheets:
First one:
Slot Leader: Tank - CP720 - 6 runs of Veteran
Slot 2: Healer - CP720 - Minimum of 2 runs of Veteran
Slot 3: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs of Veteran
Slot 1: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs Veteran
Purpose: Loot

Second one:
Slot Leader: DPS - CP50 - No experience
Slot 2: Any - no minimum
Slot 3: Any - no minimum
Slot 4: Any - no minimum
Purpose: Learning/Experience

This would allow players to apply to a punch sheet. The PUG maker can then opt to accept or deny the recipient.

The game would verify the number of runs done by the player to ensure the minimum is met.

Once the PUG is formed, no group members can be kicked. If the leader leaves because they're dissatisfied with their selection, a 1 week penalty would be applied. PUG leaders should never quit the group they personally selected.

Players should also be allowed a personal rating list of every other player they grouped with. They can then rate the other players from 1-5 stars, so that if they see these players grouped in future PUGs, they can determine if they want to join with that player again and the star system will remind them of their worth to the group

This list is only viewable to the player and does not affect the PUG system nor is it a rating average system. Each rating is visible only to the person's list. This will help people so they don't join a group with a player they didn't like.

Once the PUG is formed, the punch list is set up to accept. Each player must either accept the group or leave it (without punishment, as this is done before entering the dungeon). Once all accepted, the group is formed.

With this system, everyone takes responsibility for their own grouping. Vote kicks are removed from the game, and anyone who leaves the group is served a 48 hour penalty. Sorry, but if you have a bad internet connection and got kicked that way, you have to accept this punishment because a bad internet connection isn't fair to the rest of the group.

This system would be fair to everyone.

Randomizing a group of people and hoping for a good outcome has never worked out well.

It is an interesting alternate Idea. The basis of your idea is basically like a group finder tool instead of a forced luck of the draw that the dungeon finder is now. So basically i queue for say N Fungal Grotto II as group leader and i set requirements of what a group member must meet to queue into my group and when they request to join, i can either accept or deny them. But im stuck with the group i picked because i am the one that set the requirements. Is that pretty much the jest of it?

If so it would be a good in addition to the random dungeon finder. The thing i like about random is i like the luck of the draw rather than people who meet some ridiculous requirement. Its challenging not playing with a bunch of people who ran dungeon 400 times and people of different skill levels. I like a challenge. Easy stuff bores me. But it sounds like it would be a good tool to have...for everyone.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

Then, no offense, but you can't possibly understand either extreme of the situation.

The fact that you're asking for 48hr / 1wk penalties makes this quite obvious.

And the odds of getting the same individual somewhere down the line in another random is minor - the client-viewable only list would have to be huge, and would probably never get accessed.

The really good bad ones get /ignored. The really good ones get guild invites and friend requests.

On the contrary, not having used the system @Violynne has a very unique view. Its not as biased as people who have used the dungeon finder system. You know, the whole outside perspective thing. Sure the ban needs major adjustment. I think a 15 minute quit penalty or so is fine. You could add a max number of times you can quit your own group per day or something.

Hard to be biased when you are unfamiliar with any situation.

You can be experienced without bias - there are legit circumstances where this functionality is necessary.

Being in one of those situations and suddenly realizing the need and debating on whether you're ready for your 1 week penalty is the type of thing that only experience can provide.

Ignorance doesn't mean the impossibility of no good ideas, but it doesn't change that it's still ignorance. (Which,by itself is not a bad thing, before anyone gets all up-in-arms).

The time was a little excessive, it doesnt mean the whole idea should be trashed. I thought it was a good idea, personally. It just needed some adjustments. The principle was sound though.

@Merlin13KAGL Concerning this post:

First @Violynne, I want to clarify. Fresh perspective is a powerful thing, so I am not trying to discredit the potential here.
The goal should ultimately be for a system that is useful and just for all.

You seem like you are willing to give people a reasonable chance and that is great. You are not part of the problem, but leaving it as is, is not the solution either. The system is heavily abused and ive met some really newbie friendly nice vet players that are really helpful in dungeons. The problem is they are choked out by an excessive amount of *** that abuse the system. And that needs to stop.

You have to be really bad for me to vote to kick you. I mean you cant just be bad at DPS or tanking or healing. You have to be not trying or offline. So you have to be like completely dead weight before i will consider kicking you. It has to be major with no hope for improvement. Not " you only do X dps, your gone". But there are so many like that, that will literally look at your weapon/armor( or if your lucky wait to see what abilities you use on the trash) and be like nope, not meta, your gone.

mongoLC wrote: »

How about just grouping people around the same level cp and adjusting the dungeon for it.
Nothing worse than getting stuck with a 180 who thinks snipe is good dps.

So here is the problem. The problem isnt that someone thinks snipe is good dps, the problem is you dont think it is, therefore they are bad and shouldnt be allowed in your PUG. I can parse 18k using snipe on a 3 mil dummy and only using injection, LA and HA . 2 abilities and normal attacks. Open world im doing ST damage of 30-40k on normal mobs( not mudcrabs) and i only use a bow. Here is the kicker... im not using a maelstrom bow. Im using a hundings bow. 3 pieces of my gear( excluding jewels which are also purple) is purple. Im not using poison, and im using trash stam pots only. And a bonus FYI, i do it all on one bar. My back bar is utility. Takes like 15 seconds to kill a mudcrab on my back bar.

The irony is i watched someone solo a trial boss with 22k dps. So all these inflated numbers that elitist throw out of you must do 30k or 40k or 50k dps to do content is complete BS. Just like in wow and rift where elitist say the same thing and average people with average dps complete the content every day, ESO is no different. You dont need to do 30k dps to run content in this game. A group doing 25k dps per damage dealer is sufficient and you can get through most content with 20k per damage dealer. That whole 30k-40k dps is nonsense elitists players make up because they have a superiority complex and want to feel like the average person isnt good enough to complete content while they are.

So many bits of dishonesty here.

FIrst: maelstrom bow doesn't even increase the damage from snipe light and heacy attack and poison injection, here's the kicker... sure dude.

Second: you watched a video were someone was soloing a boss with 22 k dps, and? So what honestly, tat's a build specifically for solo, meaning you will sacrifice dps for defense and healing, and you are comparing it to a full dps build? So dishonest, and anyway, most of these bad players aren't even at 15 k dps.

Third: superiority complex? You know what that's called?It's called ad hominem, because you attack the person rather then the argument they are making, 40 k inflated? You know nothing dude, you can get 40 k dps in a group pretty easily, and pretty much no one is making an argument that you need 30 k dps to complete content, but most of these people don;t even do 15k.

So, what i get from you is that you are very dishonest in making arguments.

Kuramas9tails · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

I, personally, don't like any of the ideas you came up with. If someone joins a queue for a role they are not, people should be able to kick them without any drawbacks.

The only thing I can see actually being useful is if ZOS makes a better queueing system. You can't even deselect DLC dungeons so if you want to queue for a random vet dungeon but leave out DLC dungeons, you can't. I would be more inclined to have a 50CP tank Vet Volenfell but NOT Vet Mazz

It's as terrible as their guild search UI. You're looking for Ebonsahow motifs? Here, how about you scroll through EVERY motif and waste tons of hours that a better UI would fix.

But they changed the UI for the Crown Store/Chapter/Crown Crates that I found completely unnecessary. But that's for marketing so that's more important.

zaria · May 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

If more of these pug morons were capable of doing the role they signed up for, maybe we wouldn't have to kick them.

This, and no queuing as tank because your dps is tank level does not work