Vote kick changes to stop the abuse of the dungeon finder system.

craigr02 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

When it comes to dungeons, i want the ability to kick people who arent doing their part or role, especially on vet mode. Ive played with a few people who aren't very high cp that are decent, but a lot of people arent good. Even after explaining mechanics, some people just dont understand.
When I dps its not as bad, because i can solo almost all the non dlc dungeons, but when i heal its different.

Azuramoonstar · May 2018

Other( see comments)

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The random group finder in this game is heavily abused by some to use as their own personal group tool at the expense of others. The system is heavily exploited especially in vet dungeons. This leaves more and more of the player base with a bad experience and discourages the use of the RGF system for many people. In other words, because this abuse goes unchecked, it creates problems instead of solving them.

I would change how the system works as follows:

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

If you are picky who you run dungeons with, make some friends and join/start a guild. This is what guilds and friend lists are for. Use them. The dungeon finder is not your tool to find people to play with who meet your personal requirements.

Would you agree to these changes?

ff14 has vote kick abuse, even though they added 5 min timer and only allows 1 kick every 4 hours.

Only way to stop vote kick abuse is a true margin of vote, and it being say 4 man group do a 3vs 1 vote. If only 2 ppl say yes it doesn't go through.

realistically speaking, best way to do this is just make your own group, and stop relying on duty finder type systems. In ff11 i could only play 2 hours a day and i had 0 issue getting groups. I networked and scheduled with my guild mates. ff11 was a super grindy game.

best way is to communicate with your group, tell them why you are there, come to an agreement on things. If you can't leave and try again.

vote kicking happens when the groups goal don't match up. The abuse comes from overly using it with out any communication as to why, or kicking a person "just because" .

NovaMarx · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

If anything, the people who are toxic towards their random group mates - and/or have an issue with being paired up with lower level/CP players - are the ones who should not be using the dungeon finder, and they should be the ones playing with friends/guildies so that they can control who they are playing with.

I'm beyond tired of this argument. Let me break it down for you.

1. I am in 4 PVE guilds, 3 of which are near max capacity. Nothing is happening in any guild chats the vast majority of the time. Nobody is asking if anyone wants to farm gear, nobody is running trials (normal or vet), nobody is looking to do pledges, nobody is looking to get dungeon skins or motifs, nobody is even looking to do a skyshard or lorebook group. Sure, you'll see one of these things very occasionally, but for about 80% of the time I'm logged in and can see the chat from all these channels, it's just either completely dead across all channels or there will be a little banter that has nothing to do with running stuff, and this is in FOUR PVE GUILDS. "Just run with guildies" is not a valid point when nobody in 4 PVE guilds is making any attempt to collect players to do anything, and when I post something like "anyone want to farm SPC/Ebon/Whateverset", it's nothing but empty air waves for a response.

2. Some people (myself included) can only play at off-hours when the already generally uncohesive population is cut to one-tenth.

3. "Make more friends then". This depends on what kind of person you are on multiple levels. Your task-orientation, your standards for behavior, and your schedule all govern which people could potentially become your friends. If you're a guy that loves being rowdy, has little to no standards for behavior, volume, or skill level, and plays a lot in primetime, your friends list will be much larger than mine since I have high standards for behavior, courtesy, and skill level, I only run with people when I need to collect/complete something quickly and solo otherwise, and can only play in the wee hours of the morning.

"Just use guilds/friends to avoid the problems of the group finder" does not work for either side of the argument, and if people would just use whatever critical-thinking skills they have, this would have been realized and shut down a long time ago. Between schedules, incompatible personalities/skill levels, different goals that everyone is working on at any given point meaning working on someone elses' is a personal sacrifice, this argument should be considered the Poster-Boy for "easier said than done."

I am in PVE RP guilds (and RP and trading guilds) that are all very active, and people are constantly playing together - everything from PvE/PvP content to normal dungeons and trials. If your guilds are or feel dead/inactive you should consider leaving them and joining new guilds. There are so many guilds out there!

I would never say anything about "making more friends", as I am very well aware of how different people are in regards to their respective introversion or extroversion. But again, this is where either you join guilds to make it easier to connect with others, OR you use the Zone chat. There are always people (especially in the capitol cities) spamming the chat with LFM or LFG, which IMO is one of the better ways to find people that fit your "criteria".

As for what time you play, that of course can have affect on how many and what kind of players are online. But as a person who also plays in the off hours, I do not see this as an issue on the matter. If anything, I am just glad anyone is actually using the dungeon finder at these random times

Not to get too personal, but it seems your focus lies mainly on the issues of guilds and the social aspect of the game. Rarely do people choose to stay in inactive guilds, or in guilds where they don't feel they can properly connect with others. This is an MMO after all - so being "social" is kind of a must, especially if you want to do dungeons, PvP and general end-game content. ESO was my first ever MMO (have been playing since PC beta), and I definitely had to cross some personal boundaries in regards to communicating in the game, but it can be done.

But anyways, best of luck in the future - hope you get your guild situation sorted

DMuehlhausen · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

You can leave anything to the players to determine what is "offensive" you'd have people just lieing about what they found offensive to get people banned.

That being said the biggest change that needs to be made is if you are kicked from a dungeon you don't get a dungeon timer. Some do it cause they want a higher CP, some because they know a friend is in the queue and trying to get them in the group.

Whatever the reason if your kicked you just shouldn't get the 15 minute timer. If you leave before a mob is engaged you shouldn't get it either.

klowdy1 · May 2018

Other( see comments)

1) Perfectly reasonable.
2) If George goes afk, you're stuck with him?
3) No one can control others, or their verbal abuse.
4) That isn't fair. If you have to boot someone for being the weak link, and the obvious reason you cant be at the
final boss, even after 10 tries, those people should be punished for wanting to finish?

You are assuming the only people that use the feature are toxic elitists, but that's just not the case. You can't limit people just because you have had bad experiences. I try to always finish with the group I have, but if I'm in a vet dragon bones dungeon, and it's obvious the cp20 is holding us back, someone has been afk and is still at the front door, or they just aren't using abilities, I will vote to kick after a few fails.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Violynne wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

Then, no offense, but you can't possibly understand either extreme of the situation.

The fact that you're asking for 48hr / 1wk penalties makes this quite obvious.

I'm not asking for anything. I merely proposed a change in the current system.

Those times were just numbers I threw out there. Don't like them? Change them.

And the odds of getting the same individual somewhere down the line in another random is minor - the client-viewable only list would have to be huge, and would probably never get accessed.

Of course the same person isn't the issue. The same type of player is.

The really good bad ones get /ignored. The really good ones get guild invites and friend requests.

Neither of these fix the issue of the PUG.

The idea is to PREVENT group votes/kicks, right?

Wouldn't a system set up where people pick their groups be the better solution?

@Violynne

You're proposing a change to a system you have never personally used. You have zero experience, good, bad, or indifferent in this regard. Kind of lessens the merit of your recommendations, don't you think?

The idea is to get capable groups. Capable groups will eliminate the need for most kicks. Your punch sheet idea would partially accommodate this. Thinking you fill out some minimums (as the lead) and still can't end up with group issues is wrong. Getting a temporary ban (which is what your suggestions amount to) as a result is even worse.

People wouldn't be agreeing to the ability to kick someone for 48 hrs to 7 days. Not sure where you think this would be a good idea the other way around?

I believe in an alternate thread, you even mentioned not having set foot in a Vet dungeon yet, unless I am mistaken?

Preventing the ability to vote to kick is most definitely not the idea.

How is your self rating list going to identify the 'same type of player,' exactly? (And which type of player are you referring to? The type that kicks legitimately, the type that abuses kick, or the type that gets kicked because they cannot perform the role or are not beneficial to the group?)

There is purpose behind the system. There is purpose behind realistically having certain limitations for certain content.

More often than not, the system works fine as it is. Start penalizing people for proper use of the system and people will simply stop using the system.

If someone using RDF thinks they're getting bad group combinations now, I shudder to think how something like this would affect the end result.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

TheCyberDruid wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

Surely the reverse is the case - dont use the GF is you dont want to deal with what you get

I want to run a dungeon with a group that works. If you enjoy running a dungeon with a random group that doesn't know what to do that's fine and the dungeon finder surely provides that. Sadly it's not suitable for what I am looking for.

Your right it isnt, a guild is. Dungeon finder is luck of the draw, not a personal screening tool to find the optimal group to run dungeons with.

Aleris wrote: »

i've been playing for like 3 months and so far ive been kicked just once and it was in a dlc dungeon on normal when i was cp180 doing DD after we wiped on first boss.. it made me sad but no crying.. just did more grinding till i got to a better cp.. people want to have smooth runs doing pledges and such, i understand that.. as others pointed out then if i wanted to run dungeon being non really competent and with low CP then i would have to ask friends or guild mates.. that's it.
this system works fine.. sometimes i also have voted to kick cp 60 dd in veteran DLC dungeon because it's just right.. better than running veteran banished cell 2 with a *** tank super low level that at the ends of the dungeon after the first wipe because he's a noob ( we not talking just of cp but about how they run the things as well) said omg this is veteran i didn't know it.. sorry. and left .
see? should have just kicked that guy at start instead of giving him the chance carrying him for the entire dungeon

So from your perspective, the person who new or a casual player should find a guild/friends to run dungeons with. And the "pros" who play 8 hours a day or been playing for thousands of hours since since launch should get to use it as a tool to optimize their dungeon runs?

Sounds like you have it backwords. You want optimized speed runs with everyone knowing what they are doing and pulling a zillion dps then you need to be running with a regular group not in a PUG. PUGs are great for casuals, people with limited time, and newbies but the system is being ruined by impatient self centered elitists who use it as a screening tool because they are to lazy to put a group a together of people they find acceptable to run dungeons with.

@jaschacasadiob16_ESO

1. Why should I not vote kick someone in the first 10 minutes?

Again, we are acting like the dungeon finder is our own personal screening tool. Why is this so hard to understand? Its not there for you to screen people to run with. You want to screen people to meet whatever requirements you have, CREATE A GUILD. Its not difficult. It is there so EVERYONE can enjoy dungeons, including people who have lives, are average players, and people who are new. Not everyone loads into dungeons as fast as someone else. On my desktop i can load into a dungeon in 15-30 seconds normally. On my lap top it takes 30-60 seconds because even though its newer, it isnt designed for heavy load games.

The 10 minutes starts when group is forming and porting. So you eat up a couple of minutes of that with just getting everyone organized. You cannot determine if someone is going to be bad for the group in the first few minutes anyway, nor is it your right to play god in dungeon finder and judge others on their worthiness to be there. Everyone has as much right to be in that dungeon as you. Everyone paid for the content just like you. So subjecting them to your own requirements of what is needed to get through the dungeon is YOUR problem not theirs. The game says they can be there, they have met all the requirements they need. If the group is not up to your standards, YOU drop the group and find one that fits your needs. Not kick everyone out until you get the player you want.

2. So according to your point, if a tank gets kicked because it was a cheater and he gets replaced by another cheater I cannot kick him?

that part of the current system needs to be fixed. But no one here hates fake tanks more than a healer, of which i do quite a bit in dungeons. It makes healing everyone and keeping them alive a real pain in the ass. You know who fake tanks? the same people who want to speed run and hold everyone to so artificial high standard. How many times have i seen " oh its just normal you dont need a tank anyway". Quite a bit. The people i see fake tanking the most are "vets" not noobs. Noobs actually make an attempt to tank they just arent good at it. Fake tanks are usually high CP and running through the dungeon with a 2h and no taunt and after the run by 20 mobs stop and smack one.

Actually running as healer i get to spend a lot of time watching the other players in the group and the ones, in normal dungeons, that are always a headache? the high level, i am mightier than thou, players who think they are the cat's ass. One of those cause me more headaches than a dozen new/casual players combined.

4. Why should I get a penalty when it is my right to vote kick? Then you should get a 24h penalty if you queue up as a tank when you are not.

Because using it as a screening tool is an EXPLOIT. That is not what it is for. Its not so you can run through half a dozen people before you make it to the first boss, so you get someone that meets your requirements. Its not so you can kick certain people who may compete for the gear you want. Its not so you can boot before the last boss. Its not your tool to play god with. But i see a lot of people using it this way. And the amount of players that get put off doing dungeons because of how self important elitists treat them in dungeons makes the system worthless for all but those who exploit it. And the abuse of the system actually discourages the people it was intended to help from using it. It should be changes to Dungeon Speed Run Tool.

I see a lot of frustration in your message, typical of a low CP/DPS.

You want to believe this because it would justify that i am just some low cp scrub that doesnt know how to play and is frustrated because i wont learn my meta build and play like i am suppose too.

But your wrong. I am higher level CP and i do enough dps to do any content in this game with a group of people that do the same amount of DPS as me. In fact i can do it with people with lower dps than me. Just takes a bit longer. Which is ok, its a video game, not the Olympics.

As for getting kicked, i have been kicked 3 times from a dungeon out of hundreds of runs. 2 times were because the port screwed up and the group wasnt patient enough for me to do a workaround. The third time was because the client locked up so hard that i couldnt even alt tab out of the client, so i had to do a hard reboot which took like 6-7 minutes to get back in game.

And no you dont see frustration. You see someone who is tired of a small group of self important elitists making this one of the most toxic communities i have played in an MMO. Dungeon running is one of my favorite MMO activities. And it is one thing enjoy the least here. I almost run normal exclusively. Not because i cant run vet but because i cant deal with the toxic elitist in vet PUGs. I enjoy running with new players and casuals. They are fun and relaxing to run with. They dont make it seem like a job. They are literally the opposite of the most common people in vet dungeons. I dont care if someone wants to listen to the quest dialogue or wants to loot a container here or there or messes up and dies or doesnt know the mechanics. I still have a good time. Put me in a dungeon with a group of elitist 45k dps gold trial gear trying to blitz everything so they can get another pledge key to add to their collection of 2569 keys. ( why do you need that many keys? it takes me like two weeks to get monster gear max on my main it took 4 days)

You know there was a poll a while back( i may or may not of been the creator). in which it was asked if we should split the dungeons into casual/dont care mode and elite/blitz mode. Many of the vets were against that, some of them voted against this idea too. They were against it because it means they have to wait a few more minutes in queue.

You see how this works? The people who abuse the system want nothing to change because it benefits them while screwing over everyone else. They want, as they say, their cake and eat it too.

Dapper Dinosaur · May 2018

Absolutely not!

@novamarx Are you on Xbox NA? I forgot to mention that's my platform. I don't know if consoles or PC has a bigger playerbase.

I stick with the guilds I currently have simply because I've rotated through tons of them and they were all even more dead or irrelevant to me. I'm a top-level player in 4-man content on tank and healer and would be on dps as well if I could pull more than 22k due to my argonian-only character spread coupled with moderate arthritis. I get nothing out of the myriad of PVE guilds that cater to "new players and for having fun!". I'm well past all that and am looking for people to run veteran trials with, blast through things to get a gear setup, or go for harder things like skin challenges or motif farming. There's just not a lot of guilds that have a high population with that goal in mind, and of that limited number, all of the ones I've ever been in just have dead guild chats.

Azuramoonstar · May 2018

Other( see comments)

NovaMarx wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

If anything, the people who are toxic towards their random group mates - and/or have an issue with being paired up with lower level/CP players - are the ones who should not be using the dungeon finder, and they should be the ones playing with friends/guildies so that they can control who they are playing with.

I'm beyond tired of this argument. Let me break it down for you.

1. I am in 4 PVE guilds, 3 of which are near max capacity. Nothing is happening in any guild chats the vast majority of the time. Nobody is asking if anyone wants to farm gear, nobody is running trials (normal or vet), nobody is looking to do pledges, nobody is looking to get dungeon skins or motifs, nobody is even looking to do a skyshard or lorebook group. Sure, you'll see one of these things very occasionally, but for about 80% of the time I'm logged in and can see the chat from all these channels, it's just either completely dead across all channels or there will be a little banter that has nothing to do with running stuff, and this is in FOUR PVE GUILDS. "Just run with guildies" is not a valid point when nobody in 4 PVE guilds is making any attempt to collect players to do anything, and when I post something like "anyone want to farm SPC/Ebon/Whateverset", it's nothing but empty air waves for a response.

2. Some people (myself included) can only play at off-hours when the already generally uncohesive population is cut to one-tenth.

3. "Make more friends then". This depends on what kind of person you are on multiple levels. Your task-orientation, your standards for behavior, and your schedule all govern which people could potentially become your friends. If you're a guy that loves being rowdy, has little to no standards for behavior, volume, or skill level, and plays a lot in primetime, your friends list will be much larger than mine since I have high standards for behavior, courtesy, and skill level, I only run with people when I need to collect/complete something quickly and solo otherwise, and can only play in the wee hours of the morning.

"Just use guilds/friends to avoid the problems of the group finder" does not work for either side of the argument, and if people would just use whatever critical-thinking skills they have, this would have been realized and shut down a long time ago. Between schedules, incompatible personalities/skill levels, different goals that everyone is working on at any given point meaning working on someone elses' is a personal sacrifice, this argument should be considered the Poster-Boy for "easier said than done."

I am in PVE RP guilds (and RP and trading guilds) that are all very active, and people are constantly playing together - everything from PvE/PvP content to normal dungeons and trials. If your guilds are or feel dead/inactive you should consider leaving them and joining new guilds. There are so many guilds out there!

I would never say anything about "making more friends", as I am very well aware of how different people are in regards to their respective introversion or extroversion. But again, this is where either you join guilds to make it easier to connect with others, OR you use the Zone chat. There are always people (especially in the capitol cities) spamming the chat with LFM or LFG, which IMO is one of the better ways to find people that fit your "criteria".

As for what time you play, that of course can have affect on how many and what kind of players are online. But as a person who also plays in the off hours, I do not see this as an issue on the matter. If anything, I am just glad anyone is actually using the dungeon finder at these random times

Not to get too personal, but it seems your focus lies mainly on the issues of guilds and the social aspect of the game. Rarely do people choose to stay in inactive guilds, or in guilds where they don't feel they can properly connect with others. This is an MMO after all - so being "social" is kind of a must, especially if you want to do dungeons, PvP and general end-game content. ESO was my first ever MMO (have been playing since PC beta), and I definitely had to cross some personal boundaries in regards to communicating in the game, but it can be done.

But anyways, best of luck in the future - hope you get your guild situation sorted

pretty much this.

I have autism, and i had no real issue making friends in-game and networking with people. Easiest thing is simply help people and ask for help in return.

hell even start a guild around an interest, and look for people of similar interest. I met my boyfriend in my guild on ff14 by talking to him about games. nearly 6 years together and lived with him for 2 years come june 1ts.

idk why mmo went from very social games to anti-social. the "i have a real life" mantra really should die as everyone has a life outside of the game. I met people who had full time jobs/families that could play 5 hours a night. I also met people who play 2 hours a night simple because they shared a system, or just simply only wanted to play 2 hours a night.

really wish people would stop make petty excuses on why they can't meet people and get stuff done

game has a large player base that is fairly active at all hours. i play 5pm-5am CST/CDT and see chat very active, I've also play 5am-5pm and again see the chat fairly active.

MerlinPendragon · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Leave kicking functions as is.

I want to reserve my right to remove people from the group without restrictions.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

PUG setup should be based on a punch sheet. Those looking to run a dungeon would set up a PUG request, and then fill in requirements for the slots the maker wants filled. For example, they may create 3 slots of DPS, or 2 slots DPS, 1 slot Healer, etc.

Example of a punch sheets:
First one:
Slot Leader: Tank - CP720 - 6 runs of Veteran
Slot 2: Healer - CP720 - Minimum of 2 runs of Veteran
Slot 3: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs of Veteran
Slot 1: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs Veteran
Purpose: Loot

Second one:
Slot Leader: DPS - CP50 - No experience
Slot 2: Any - no minimum
Slot 3: Any - no minimum
Slot 4: Any - no minimum
Purpose: Learning/Experience

This would allow players to apply to a punch sheet. The PUG maker can then opt to accept or deny the recipient.

The game would verify the number of runs done by the player to ensure the minimum is met.

Once the PUG is formed, no group members can be kicked. If the leader leaves because they're dissatisfied with their selection, a 1 week penalty would be applied. PUG leaders should never quit the group they personally selected.

Players should also be allowed a personal rating list of every other player they grouped with. They can then rate the other players from 1-5 stars, so that if they see these players grouped in future PUGs, they can determine if they want to join with that player again and the star system will remind them of their worth to the group

This list is only viewable to the player and does not affect the PUG system nor is it a rating average system. Each rating is visible only to the person's list. This will help people so they don't join a group with a player they didn't like.

Once the PUG is formed, the punch list is set up to accept. Each player must either accept the group or leave it (without punishment, as this is done before entering the dungeon). Once all accepted, the group is formed.

With this system, everyone takes responsibility for their own grouping. Vote kicks are removed from the game, and anyone who leaves the group is served a 48 hour penalty. Sorry, but if you have a bad internet connection and got kicked that way, you have to accept this punishment because a bad internet connection isn't fair to the rest of the group.

This system would be fair to everyone.

Randomizing a group of people and hoping for a good outcome has never worked out well.

It is an interesting alternate Idea. The basis of your idea is basically like a group finder tool instead of a forced luck of the draw that the dungeon finder is now. So basically i queue for say N Fungal Grotto II as group leader and i set requirements of what a group member must meet to queue into my group and when they request to join, i can either accept or deny them. But im stuck with the group i picked because i am the one that set the requirements. Is that pretty much the jest of it?

If so it would be a good in addition to the random dungeon finder. The thing i like about random is i like the luck of the draw rather than people who meet some ridiculous requirement. Its challenging not playing with a bunch of people who ran dungeon 400 times and people of different skill levels. I like a challenge. Easy stuff bores me. But it sounds like it would be a good tool to have...for everyone.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

Then, no offense, but you can't possibly understand either extreme of the situation.

The fact that you're asking for 48hr / 1wk penalties makes this quite obvious.

And the odds of getting the same individual somewhere down the line in another random is minor - the client-viewable only list would have to be huge, and would probably never get accessed.

The really good bad ones get /ignored. The really good ones get guild invites and friend requests.

On the contrary, not having used the system @Violynne has a very unique view. Its not as biased as people who have used the dungeon finder system. You know, the whole outside perspective thing. Sure the ban needs major adjustment. I think a 15 minute quit penalty or so is fine. You could add a max number of times you can quit your own group per day or something.

Azuramoonstar · May 2018

Other( see comments)

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

@novamarx Are you on Xbox NA? I forgot to mention that's my platform. I don't know if consoles or PC has a bigger playerbase.

I stick with the guilds I currently have simply because I've rotated through tons of them and they were all even more dead or irrelevant to me. I'm a top-level player in 4-man content on tank and healer and would be on dps as well if I could pull more than 22k due to my argonian-only character spread coupled with moderate arthritis. I get nothing out of the myriad of PVE guilds that cater to "new players and for having fun!". I'm well past all that and am looking for people to run veteran trials with, blast through things to get a gear setup, or go for harder things like skin challenges or motif farming. There's just not a lot of guilds that have a high population with that goal in mind, and of that limited number, all of the ones I've ever been in just have dead guild chats.

personally, i would join the "new player" guilds and help people get up to your level, it builds a bond and gets people to know each others strengths and weaknesses. Any guild is a give/take, and it best not to be that "E". You could also start your own guild.

I think you going into guilds for the wrong reason, having personal goals is good and all, but it comes off as selfish if you only care about your goals.

Again starting a guild for max level only players would be the best way to go.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

So from your perspective, the person who new or a casual player should find a guild/friends to run dungeons with. And the "pros" who play 8 hours a day or been playing for thousands of hours since since launch should get to use it as a tool to optimize their dungeon runs?

Sounds like you have it backwords. You want optimized speed runs with everyone knowing what they are doing and pulling a zillion dps then you need to be running with a regular group not in a PUG. PUGs are great for casuals, people with limited time, and newbies but the system is being ruined by impatient self centered elitists who use it as a screening tool because they are to lazy to put a group a together of people they find acceptable to run dungeons with.

RDF should be able to be used by all and it's not unreasonable to expect similarly experienced tier of player when using RDF.

A legit "Group me with similar tier," "Group me with these goals in mind," "Group me with lower experienced," or "Group me with whatever comes up" should all be an option.

You don't get to restrict what people use it for either. No one does. It's a public tool intended for public access. You don't get to put the only newer, non HM, no Speed Run restrictions on their either.

It's called Random for a reason - you get what you get. If you are looking for a specific purpose, whether a casual run with a less experienced group, a learning run, or a ND SR HM full achievements-in-one-go run, then premake your group.

There are legit times when it's not the l33t you're making it out to be that someone popping up in RDF is not going to be capable of a clear.

That CP100 tank isn't going to knock out vScalecaller. Doesn't matter how much good will, group experience, or hope their is. It's realistically not happening. To force it, via penalties, forced acceptance, etc won't change that.

TL;DR; The problem isn't the kick. The problem is that you can place filters on your request to help alleviate some of this upfront. The other problem is there are no prerequisites beyond level. If you can access it, you can enter it.

You should be able to have half a chance at clearing it, having completed other requirements prior.

That is not an unreasonable suggestion that would benefit all tiers of players and groups.

Collectively beating your heads against the wall in impossible content (due a number of factors) helps no one.

Minyassa · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Something needs to change. The apparently extremely high population of horrible people resulting in a constant stream of horror stories about getting kicked from dungeons because someone wanted a friend to have something or someone didn't like your name or someone didn't like your CP or someone didn't like the skills you have, etc. ad infinitum, has got me scared away from the dungeon finder for good because I figure since I am not a perfect match for the meta I have a snowball's chance in hell of not getting kicked even if I am lucky enough to get in as a DPS.

Kolache · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Don't let group finder force carries by placing people in content they're not ready/built for and you won't have nearly as many kicks.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

PUG setup should be based on a punch sheet. Those looking to run a dungeon would set up a PUG request, and then fill in requirements for the slots the maker wants filled. For example, they may create 3 slots of DPS, or 2 slots DPS, 1 slot Healer, etc.

Example of a punch sheets:
First one:
Slot Leader: Tank - CP720 - 6 runs of Veteran
Slot 2: Healer - CP720 - Minimum of 2 runs of Veteran
Slot 3: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs of Veteran
Slot 1: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs Veteran
Purpose: Loot

Second one:
Slot Leader: DPS - CP50 - No experience
Slot 2: Any - no minimum
Slot 3: Any - no minimum
Slot 4: Any - no minimum
Purpose: Learning/Experience

This would allow players to apply to a punch sheet. The PUG maker can then opt to accept or deny the recipient.

The game would verify the number of runs done by the player to ensure the minimum is met.

Once the PUG is formed, no group members can be kicked. If the leader leaves because they're dissatisfied with their selection, a 1 week penalty would be applied. PUG leaders should never quit the group they personally selected.

Players should also be allowed a personal rating list of every other player they grouped with. They can then rate the other players from 1-5 stars, so that if they see these players grouped in future PUGs, they can determine if they want to join with that player again and the star system will remind them of their worth to the group

This list is only viewable to the player and does not affect the PUG system nor is it a rating average system. Each rating is visible only to the person's list. This will help people so they don't join a group with a player they didn't like.

Once the PUG is formed, the punch list is set up to accept. Each player must either accept the group or leave it (without punishment, as this is done before entering the dungeon). Once all accepted, the group is formed.

With this system, everyone takes responsibility for their own grouping. Vote kicks are removed from the game, and anyone who leaves the group is served a 48 hour penalty. Sorry, but if you have a bad internet connection and got kicked that way, you have to accept this punishment because a bad internet connection isn't fair to the rest of the group.

This system would be fair to everyone.

Randomizing a group of people and hoping for a good outcome has never worked out well.

It is an interesting alternate Idea. The basis of your idea is basically like a group finder tool instead of a forced luck of the draw that the dungeon finder is now. So basically i queue for say N Fungal Grotto II as group leader and i set requirements of what a group member must meet to queue into my group and when they request to join, i can either accept or deny them. But im stuck with the group i picked because i am the one that set the requirements. Is that pretty much the jest of it?

If so it would be a good in addition to the random dungeon finder. The thing i like about random is i like the luck of the draw rather than people who meet some ridiculous requirement. Its challenging not playing with a bunch of people who ran dungeon 400 times and people of different skill levels. I like a challenge. Easy stuff bores me. But it sounds like it would be a good tool to have...for everyone.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

Then, no offense, but you can't possibly understand either extreme of the situation.

The fact that you're asking for 48hr / 1wk penalties makes this quite obvious.

And the odds of getting the same individual somewhere down the line in another random is minor - the client-viewable only list would have to be huge, and would probably never get accessed.

The really good bad ones get /ignored. The really good ones get guild invites and friend requests.

On the contrary, not having used the system @Violynne has a very unique view. Its not as biased as people who have used the dungeon finder system. You know, the whole outside perspective thing. Sure the ban needs major adjustment. I think a 15 minute quit penalty or so is fine. You could add a max number of times you can quit your own group per day or something.

Hard to be biased when you are unfamiliar with any situation.

You can be experienced without bias - there are legit circumstances where this functionality is necessary.

Being in one of those situations and suddenly realizing the need and debating on whether you're ready for your 1 week penalty is the type of thing that only experience can provide.

Ignorance doesn't mean the impossibility of no good ideas, but it doesn't change that it's still ignorance. (Which,by itself is not a bad thing, before anyone gets all up-in-arms).

PouletRico · May 2018

Absolutely not!

I think they just need to do a Ranked/Casual mode, like a lot of games these days (CS:GO, LOL etc...).
Playing in ranked would requires a good level/CP, or a certain amount of time spent in casual, and you could be ban from ranked if you're being kick too much, or reported.

Every points listed by OP are wrong, and only fix problems for him, not for everyone (or for the major part of the players).

Violynne · May 2018

Other( see comments)

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You're proposing a change to a system you have never personally used. You have zero experience, good, bad, or indifferent in this regard. Kind of lessens the merit of your recommendations, don't you think?

Sometimes, the best ideas come from people who aren't exposed to the problems. If my proposal lessens the issues, then I'm more than open to them being refused/rejected.

I have no personal stake in this discussion, just observations.

The idea is to get capable groups. Capable groups will eliminate the need for most kicks. Your punch sheet idea would partially accommodate this. Thinking you fill out some minimums (as the lead) and still can't end up with group issues is wrong. Getting a temporary ban (which is what your suggestions amount to) as a result is even worse.

I never said my idea is infallible.

The punch sheet would reduce the chances of getting a group that's not capable, correct?

What makes more sense: players selected/being selected for a group for better runs or randomization?

People wouldn't be agreeing to the ability to kick someone for 48 hrs to 7 days. Not sure where you think this would be a good idea the other way around?

This was based on seeing comments of people who leave the group before completion. If it's not feasible to add this punishment, it need not be part of the solution.

I believe in an alternate thread, you even mentioned not having set foot in a Vet dungeon yet, unless I am mistaken?

Correct, and this is actually quite important to me because imagine what it's like for us who haven't joined a group, and then seeing how easy it is to get kicked just "because".

I'm CP500 right now. People expect this to carry some semblance of knowing what they do.

What do you think my odds are at being kicked because the group has no idea of my experience, but the PUG threw me into a group which wants better.

Preventing the ability to vote to kick is most definitely not the idea.

This is where I disagree.

The OP's premise is there's abuse rampant in the current system, correct? Then a punch sheet system would help with this.

If a group leader's intentions are not in line with the group members who join, then there's clearly a problem with communication, and by the time the group starts, it's too late.

This, I admit, is speculation on my part. I have no idea if the RFG/PUG system allows people to communicate before the group starts, but if people are getting kicked after the group is formed, then this tells me there's a problem.

How is your self rating list going to identify the 'same type of player,' exactly? (And which type of player are you referring to? The type that kicks legitimately, the type that abuses kick, or the type that gets kicked because they cannot perform the role or are not beneficial to the group?)

The rating system wouldn't prevent issues in the current group, but it would help with future grouping, in that if your personal rating finds a player spawned in PUG, then you can decide if you wish to remain in the group.

If friends list/guild invites are sufficient in this manner, then the rating system can be omitted, though if the punch list is created, perhaps another identifier to show you want to be in the group?

More often than not, the system works fine as it is. Start penalizing people for proper use of the system and people will simply stop using the system.

I understand this, which is why this proposal isn't something I want to see immediately put in place.

It's a primer, a way to see if there's compromise to both the current system, and improvements.

Blocking people from getting kicked within 10 minutes isn't a reasonable solution to me, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one who gets burned in 11 minutes, proving no amount of timer is going to work.

With each member accepting the group formation as is, then this should remove the burden from anyone having to be kicked, correct?

Communities shouldn't kick players from a group. They should help them get better.

From my perspective, it seems there's a small segment of dungeon runners who don't care for this. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but for PUGs, not knowing this going in seems to be the problem.

If someone using RDF thinks they're getting bad group combinations now, I shudder to think how something like this would affect the end result.

How is selecting one's group a bad thing?

Punishments aside (in fact, let's just remove them completely from this discussion), wouldn't options of player choice be better than randomly throwing people together?

That's the point of my proposal: giving choice to join groups they feel may (key here!) be better. It's not 100% perfect, but clearly there's a need for improvement.

I can't imagine what others, reading this who are also inexperienced to dungeons, would be thinking.

Agendas. Everyone has them. They're all different. So group based on them, rather than random luck. That's the key to my post.

Azuramoonstar · May 2018

Other( see comments)

PouletRico wrote: »

I think they just need to do a Ranked/Casual mode, like a lot of games these days (CS:GO, LOL etc...).
Playing in ranked would requires a good level/CP, or a certain amount of time spent in casual, and you could be ban from ranked if you're being kick too much, or reported.

Every points listed by OP are wrong, and only fix problems for him, not for everyone (or for the major part of the players).

stuff like that only works in fps not mmo. Better idea would be adding a party finder type system that you can set your rules up on. Pretty much allow you to set a cp level, a lock out option (so only people who cleared it can join must clear'ed it to use option), a learning party option, set up a role list (like 4dd only).

ff14 has one and works wonders, it has it's own UI window so people can look and join one.

NovaMarx · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

@novamarx Are you on Xbox NA? I forgot to mention that's my platform. I don't know if consoles or PC has a bigger playerbase.

I stick with the guilds I currently have simply because I've rotated through tons of them and they were all even more dead or irrelevant to me. I'm a top-level player in 4-man content on tank and healer and would be on dps as well if I could pull more than 22k due to my argonian-only character spread coupled with moderate arthritis. I get nothing out of the myriad of PVE guilds that cater to "new players and for having fun!". I'm well past all that and am looking for people to run veteran trials with, blast through things to get a gear setup, or go for harder things like skin challenges or motif farming. There's just not a lot of guilds that have a high population with that goal in mind, and of that limited number, all of the ones I've ever been in just have dead guild chats.

I'm a PC gal - and have been playing since closed PC beta. (So I have no real scope of the console populations, but the PC population is vast, alive and kicking.)

People have been abusing the group finder tool since day one. Like others have stated, people tend to use it like their own personal "screening tool", which defeats the purpose of the tool. The tool is susceptible to RNG as any other aspects of the game. When you use it you "run the risk" of being paired with players who are either new/inexperienced, low level/CP, don't live up to your expectations, or whatever else you don't want. And because of this, many players have been mistreated by fellow players - because entitled and/or elitist players use the tool as a sort of "audition" platform to find the "perfect match". This is just wrong, and needs to be addressed in some manner. I know they are adding slight changes to it soon, but IMO it needs a proper rework so that both new and seasoned players can get better experiences when using it.

And alas, I have to disagree with your view on there not being guilds that cater to seasoned players - at least on PC. If you really want a vet guild, then use the forums (or zone chat) to find one that fits you. You kind of have to do your own legwork and be proactive.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · May 2018

Absolutely not!

I have used GF literally hundreds of times with my average use being 4 times a day. I have never been vote kicked. Not on a newb toon or as some of you infer on an Elitist toon. It appears some of you posting that you have been vote kicked a lot. If so I suggest looking at your playstyle and build. I always give players a chance to play and have fun. If your DPS build has 32K that is an indicator you cannot do much DPS. If your Tank has 16k maybe your toon is not a Tank. If your Healer uses dual Destro Staves maybe your healing is sub par. Seems a lot of bad experiences are posted here. I ran four Vet randoms in a row the other day. Four. All went well with two being speed runs and no deaths. All different players every time. Maybe some of you are being vote kicked for not doing your role and are taking it too personally. Improving your builds and your skills may be what is needed instead.

jaws343 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

A very particularly toxic Vet Scalecaller run comes to mind with this. We get into the dungeon and get to the first boss in maybe 5 minutes. Really good dps and heals. But at the first boss, our tank says that they queued for DPS and Tank and that they are not geared to tank. No taunt, no resistance, nothing, in Vet Scalecaller. We kick him.

Now we get a replacement tank, and this guy is good. However, one of our dps is new to the dungeon so we are explaining the fight to him. The new tank isn't on comms. The dps dies twice but we don't wipe and we clear the boss pretty quickly.

New tank initiates a vote kick on the healer. We all decline because what? The tank jumps into comms raging about the awful healing because the dps dies (to one shots). We explain that the dps was new to the dungeon and that we were explainining the mechanics. The tank goes on a tirade about how he is the best at the dungeon and that we are terrible and so on.

We immediately vote kick him, because the level of abuse that he was pouring out at us, after clearing the first boss without a wipe mind you, was incredibly absurd.

So we re-queue for a tank. After a few minutes we get one. And it was the same guy we literally just kicked. So we immediately vote kicked him again because nope, not playing with him. We are waiting 10 more minutes for the queue and bam we get him again. Immediate vote kick.

A few minutes pass and we get a new tank finally. We finish the dungeon with that tank, only wiping once on the final fight.

In your absurd proposed group finder changes:

1) We wouldn't have been able to kick the first guy without just standing around waiting for the 10 minutes to go through or purposefully wiping at the first boss until the 10 minutes went through. No way anyone is managing that fight with a fake tank like that.

2) We are finally able to kick this guy who has no purpose there and now we are stuck with this abusive player. Nope no thank you.

Your idea is terrible.

NordSwordnBoard · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Majority rules in the PUG, for better or worse. The majority of my experiences using GF are positive/successful, due to the fact I can surmise if I should stay, leave, or vote to kick another player within the first 10 minutes or so.

1) I've been kicked to login before porting into a dungeon, then logged back in ASAP to find I was booted. The groups' impatience is annoying to me, but its really a misunderstanding - we both think the other is inconsiderate of others' time.

2) I recently helped a random person beat vICP for the first time, we were in chat, explaining mechanics etc. I came in after the first boss, and we had to replace three more before the group could move past the giant fleshbag boss. Our run would've had to end under your rule because a few trolls got in and kept aggro'ing the boss before anyone was ready (I was tank) and not joining chat or following mechanics and constantly dying. I'm glad we could boot them and finish the dungeon.

3) Any verbal abuse is ugly and speaks volumes about what you're getting into. Instead of trying to enlighten the willfully ignorant, I'm just going to move on. 15 minutes is so much better than actual frustration with toxic people.

4) This read to me as: accept this scrub or troll (who refuses to at least cooperate), the next one may be worse and you can't get rid of that one because of rule #2.

I have to admit, there is a big difference between those who have already done the content, and those who haven't/seldom complete it. The former is usually more easy-going about dropping out of a bad group (knowing what they are up against, nothing to prove) and the latter is sometimes prone to get too invested/obsessed with completion.

I don't have to be picky about who's in my PUG, because I accept that the majority rules in the PUG. If I'm cool with what they want to do or not - that's on me.

(edit for spelling)

jaws343 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Also, to add to my comments. The Group Finder has an intended purpose of putting together a group to complete a dungeon. If a player is included in your group through the finder who is unable to perform the intended design of group finder, contribute to the completion the dungeon, then the other players in the group should always have the option to remove that player from group.

Group Finder is not a means to be carried through content that you are unable to complete. That is probably the most selfish expectation I have read on here.

That doesn't mean that group finder cannot be used to learn content. But at some point, inexperience with content and the inability to complete content diverge. And if you learn the mechanics are are still unable to complete the content, group finder is not, and should not, be for you.

greenmachine · May 2018

Absolutely not!

So much drama and wringing of hands over vote kicks.

Queuing with one friend makes you kick proof. Make a friend, it's an MMO. If you can't make a friend, don't blame the game or community. There are loads of people eager to help in this community.

NordSwordnBoard · May 2018

Absolutely not!

greenmachine wrote: »

So much drama and wringing of hands over vote kicks.

Queuing with one friend makes you kick proof. Make a friend, it's an MMO. If you can't make a friend, don't blame the game or community. There are loads of people eager to help in this community.

This

Where the majority rules, ensure you control half the vote. Only once did I ever go into GF with a friend and came across two toxic jerks resulting in a stalemate.

I'd even venture to say that most of the time, the toxic tools are solo anyways. Controlling half the vote will send them to 15 min purgatory instead of you and your pal.

Keep in mind, all those forum posts about kicking and the other ones that were trolling the original post don't really represent the actual player base. Only some players come to the forums, and not everybody posts in the forums.

The system typically works, it's the people its designed to help that fail. This issue and a few others is why in my experience the PvE community is far more toxic than the PvP one.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · May 2018

Text walls like those above clearly show frustration.

I think the real problem here is that everyone has a slighlty different idea of what is fun.

I think that overall many problems would be avoided, or at least reduced, by giving us more options:

No roles: 4 people enter without any specific role.
Speed run: the group is disbanded if the dungeon is not cleared in N minutes.
No deaths: the group is disbanded at the first death.
Hard mode: no need to read a scroll or break orbs.
No partials: not necessarily I wanna get dragged into a group that is half way to the end.

On the other hand, people should have a little more respect for others. If you join other people as a role, do it. But as you can't heal stupid, you can't teach them respect. And that unfortunately is not good enough as a reason to get banned.

Motherball · May 2018

I feel bad for players that get kicked, but the tool is there for a reason. If you find yourself getting kicked regularly, either find out why and adjust or find something else to do, imo.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

First @Violynne, I want to clarify. Fresh perspective is a powerful thing, so I am not trying to discredit the potential here.
The goal should ultimately be for a system that is useful and just for all.

Violynne wrote: »

I'm CP500 right now. People expect this to carry some semblance of knowing what they do.

What do you think my odds are at being kicked because the group has no idea of my experience, but the PUG threw me into a group which wants better.

With any group that's worth a damn, your odds should be small. You should be given opportunity to demonstrate proficiency. You should be given a chance to give/take advice and adjust things based on the group's experience.

Every group situation is different. One method does not fit all. Experienced, or at least reasonable group members will realize this and offer insight how to help the entire group clear. I've helped groups with far lower CP (or no CP, in some cases) clear content they thought they had no chance in hell of clearing. It comes down to patience, useful advice that the group members are willing to entertain, and good explanation of what is happening and why last pull didn't work.

I don't care mind if you've never been 'here' before. I'll happily walk anyone through anything, so long as we're progressing. Any good group / group lead will do the same.

TL;DR; Everyone was brand damned new at one point. Everyone got their ass handed to them by some content. Everyone that is capable within reason deserves that chance. (Everyone that is not, due to level, gear, bad day, etc, deserves to hear the truth about why it won't work, so they can improve and come back later and kick said content's ass.)

Requiring more 'proof' in terms of punch cards would increase the odds of success, I'm sure. What I keep conveying though, is that there are still going to be occasional circumstances where someone meets the requirements you post on a punch card, but still is not able to clear content.

If, after sufficient time and opportunity, that person would not opt to leave on their own accord (which they should be able to do for reason and without penalty), then kick becomes the only option.

An experienced group will know in short order whether a clear is possible. It does no one any good to proceed at that point.
It only serves to discourage and frustrate.

The other caveat with that, is if a group does determine it's not going to work, they will have the courage to not only point it out (not necessarily point fingers), but they will be able to constructively explain why, and perhaps how to benefit in future runs.

CP500 doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing or lack player skill. CP1200 doesn't mean you do, either.

How is your self rating list going to identify the 'same type of player,' exactly? (And which type of player are you referring to? The type that kicks legitimately, the type that abuses kick, or the type that gets kicked because they cannot perform the role or are not beneficial to the group?)

The rating system wouldn't prevent issues in the current group, but it would help with future grouping, in that if your personal rating finds a player spawned in PUG, then you can decide if you wish to remain in the group.

If friends list/guild invites are sufficient in this manner, then the rating system can be omitted, though if the punch list is created, perhaps another identifier to show you want to be in the group?

It would have to be a publicly viewed system - a star rating, if you will.

It would show neutral until a certain number of runs was under your belt in a particular role. (Being new wouldn't automatically slam someone) It would filter outliers. and would have to take an average of votes to show the real result.

Could it still be abused to either extreme? Sure. But after so many runs with different groups, the true nature of a players potential would start to show through.

People had declined this kind of idea for the subjective nature and the ability for people to ultimately skew the system if they tried, either to benefit themselves (plz upvote me) or to troll someone else (let's all downvote him)

The idea of the list is sound. In my experience, though, I find the odds of you getting randomly grouped with someone from a previous run (whether they were awesome or horrible, either one) is very slim. The list would ultimately have to be huge to eventually benefit.

It's why friends list, guild roster, or even a carefully remembered @name of someone worth their salt is worth remembering (and snatching up in zone chat LFG's, when available.)

More often than not, the system works fine as it is. Start penalizing people for proper use of the system and people will simply stop using the system.

I understand this, which is why this proposal isn't something I want to see immediately put in place.

It's a primer, a way to see if there's compromise to both the current system, and improvements.

Blocking people from getting kicked within 10 minutes isn't a reasonable solution to me, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one who gets burned in 11 minutes, proving no amount of timer is going to work.

With each member accepting the group formation as is, then this should remove the burden from anyone having to be kicked, correct?

Communities shouldn't kick players from a group. They should help them get better.

If there was a proper advancement in place, I would absolutely agree to this. However, in the interest of people not wanting any kind of restriction placed on them, there is not (minor exception for CP requirements to enter certain content via RDF)

In present state, you could queue and be placed in Scalecaller or Fang Lair as easily as you could be placed in Banished Cells or City of Ash I.

There are vast differences between these, and everything in between. It would be absolutely unfair to bring you into the vet version of these with your current experience level. It's not a slam. It's not a statement on your potential as a player. It's the reality of the difficulty difference that is present and will filter out players, with no help from the group.

The mechanics will determine the outcome (or lack thereof).

This was once taken care of indirectly by Zone leveling. Since 1T, that's no longer really an option, so the required 'progression' and all it was supposed to teach in the process, is no longer mandatory.

It is a failure of the game that there are essentially no requirements prior to entry, and the only options are clear, don't clear, run in place for four hours, or kick/get kicked.

From my perspective, it seems there's a small segment of dungeon runners who don't care for this. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but for PUGs, not knowing this going in seems to be the problem.

If someone using RDF thinks they're getting bad group combinations now, I shudder to think how something like this would affect the end result.

How is selecting one's group a bad thing?

It would lessen the pool form which people were chosen.

If it resulted in grouping with like minded people of similar skill, then it would likely be a good thing. It would also limit, in some cases, the higher level, higher experienced, good players that do want to help people improve. I think people would self categorize even more and the pool would shrink.

Punishments aside (in fact, let's just remove them completely from this discussion), wouldn't options of player choice be better than randomly throwing people together?

That's the point of my proposal: giving choice to join groups they feel may (key here!) be better. It's not 100% perfect, but clearly there's a need for improvement.

I can't imagine what others, reading this who are also inexperienced to dungeons, would be thinking.

Agendas. Everyone has them. They're all different. So group based on them, rather than random luck. That's the key to my post.

What I'd like for you, especially to take out of this is keep doing what you're doing.

Keep your positive outlook and your interest in making things better.

Sometimes you have to disregard the "Pro's" and take what those of us that have been here since the beginning of time with a grain of salt.

Any player worth their weight will be willing to be open to new ideas and will to discuss the how's and why's of their opinions.

TL;TL;DR; Just because you are new to dungeons doesn't make you kick worthy. Any player prejudging you as such is a waste of your time, not the other way around

Keep at it, and good luck!

emilyhyoyeon · May 2018

I would only be ok with the OP's suggestions as they are if the penalty for leaving a group were removed.