Vote kick changes to stop the abuse of the dungeon finder system.

AlienatedGoat · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

Everything is good except the timer.

If I kick someone, its for a very good reason, and usually because they are being a jerk.

I'm not taking a 30 minute hit because someone else was being a jerk.

abigfishy · May 2018

Absolutely not!

At the start of the dungeon I say to the 'tank'. "Hey your food has run out you only have 12k health."
They reply, "I'm a NB I don't have much health."
I note that they are armed with bow/DW and have no taunts.

Do we really have to wait 10 minutes to kick him? If we replace him with his twin we are stuck with him forever?

Bad idea.

Gythral · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

abigfishy wrote: »

At the start of the dungeon I say to the 'tank'. "Hey your food has run out you only have 12k health."
They reply, "I'm a NB I don't have much health."
I note that they are armed with bow/DW and have no taunts.

Do we really have to wait 10 minutes to kick him? If we replace him with his twin we are stuck with him forever?

Bad idea.

The system should never have let it in as a tank

zaria · May 2018

WOW had an kick timeout, you could only kick once in an dungeon, might be an timer to but never saw it.
However it was an extra kick if none had kicked that day. Ran into this on an run, first went offline on first trash, kick got an replacement who just stood there.
As we had kicked we could not kick but managed to clear dungeon with 4.

TheCyberDruid · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Well, just don't use the dungeon finder if you don't like to get vote kicked. The dungeon finder system is... sub-optimal and could use a lot of options to be really usable. Join a guild and run dungeons with your guildies and/or friends. Changing the way vote kick works won't solve any of the problems the dungeon finder has.

Gythral · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

TheCyberDruid wrote: »

Well, just don't use the dungeon finder if you don't like to get vote kicked. The dungeon finder system is... sub-optimal and could use a lot of options to be really usable. Join a guild and run dungeons with your guildies and/or friends. Changing the way vote kick works won't solve any of the problems the dungeon finder has.

Surely the reverse is the case - dont use the GF is you dont want to deal with what you get

TheCyberDruid · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Gythral wrote: »

Surely the reverse is the case - dont use the GF is you dont want to deal with what you get

I want to run a dungeon with a group that works. If you enjoy running a dungeon with a random group that doesn't know what to do that's fine and the dungeon finder surely provides that. Sadly it's not suitable for what I am looking for.

Dapper Dinosaur · May 2018

Absolutely not!

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

Yeah, let's allow the insane swarm of people not even cp 400 to clog groups in DLC dungeons for 10 minutes EACH. Excellent idea.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

It is at this point that I realize you're an extremely low-level (be it skill or character or both) player that simply has no idea what difficult content is like from the perspective of a better player that's tired of wasting hundreds of hours collectively trying to carry people like you.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

With enough reports, it is chat-bannable by Microsoft. However, I am glad it's not really actioned much, because the world we live in is so cancerously PC that nobody can take even the smallest amount of criticism without getting their feelings hurt and crying for the big meaniehead to be banned anymore.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

See #2.

If these changes were to take effect, I (and many others) would probably quit playing for good. Maybe instead of crying for these changes, you should just accept that people don't want to carry someone that is dead weight for one reason or another.

Gythral · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Which is not what the group finder is for - it's just a tool to group those that the system deems should be able to do it with similar others

Guilds are what "I only want overkill" are for!

Slick_007 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

1 no
2 no
3 has nothing to do with votekicking
4 no

pretty idiotic ideas actually. especially #4. seriously, wtf on that one!

TheCyberDruid · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Gythral wrote: »

Which is not what the group finder is for - it's just a tool to group those that the system deems should be able to do it with similar others

Guilds are what "I only want overkill" are for!

I'm always so happy to see people that are absolutely sure that their interpretation of something is the only viable one. No worries I'll live with the dungeon finder and what it is. By ignoring it.

Gythral · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

The tool is what is is
I am interpreting nothing, it is a computer program that (warts an all) does exactly what I said it does,
groups players according to it's rules

NovaMarx · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Anyone who says that the people complaining about toxic experiences with the dungeon finder should not use it - that is seriously flawed logic. If anything, the people who are toxic towards their random group mates - and/or have an issue with being paired up with lower level/CP players - are the ones who should not be using the dungeon finder, and they should be the ones playing with friends/guildies so that they can control who they are playing with.

The dungeon finder is a tool to be used nice and easily by everyone, regardless of whether you are a new or seasoned player. Anything that can be done to improve it is welcome!

Dapper Dinosaur · May 2018

Absolutely not!

If anything, the people who are toxic towards their random group mates - and/or have an issue with being paired up with lower level/CP players - are the ones who should not be using the dungeon finder, and they should be the ones playing with friends/guildies so that they can control who they are playing with.

I'm beyond tired of this argument. Let me break it down for you.

1. I am in 4 PVE guilds, 3 of which are near max capacity. Nothing is happening in any guild chats the vast majority of the time. Nobody is asking if anyone wants to farm gear, nobody is running trials (normal or vet), nobody is looking to do pledges, nobody is looking to get dungeon skins or motifs, nobody is even looking to do a skyshard or lorebook group. Sure, you'll see one of these things very occasionally, but for about 80% of the time I'm logged in and can see the chat from all these channels, it's just either completely dead across all channels or there will be a little banter that has nothing to do with running stuff, and this is in FOUR PVE GUILDS. "Just run with guildies" is not a valid point when nobody in 4 PVE guilds is making any attempt to collect players to do anything, and when I post something like "anyone want to farm SPC/Ebon/Whateverset", it's nothing but empty air waves for a response.

2. Some people (myself included) can only play at off-hours when the already generally uncohesive population is cut to one-tenth.

3. "Make more friends then". This depends on what kind of person you are on multiple levels. Your task-orientation, your standards for behavior, and your schedule all govern which people could potentially become your friends. If you're a guy that loves being rowdy, has little to no standards for behavior, volume, or skill level, and plays a lot in primetime, your friends list will be much larger than mine since I have high standards for behavior, courtesy, and skill level, I only run with people when I need to collect/complete something quickly and solo otherwise, and can only play in the wee hours of the morning.

"Just use guilds/friends to avoid the problems of the group finder" does not work for either side of the argument, and if people would just use whatever critical-thinking skills they have, this would have been realized and shut down a long time ago. Between schedules, incompatible personalities/skill levels, different goals that everyone is working on at any given point meaning working on someone elses' is a personal sacrifice, this argument should be considered the Poster-Boy for "easier said than done."

DanteYoda · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

Yeah, let's allow the insane swarm of people not even cp 400 to clog groups in DLC dungeons for 10 minutes EACH. Excellent idea.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

It is at this point that I realize you're an extremely low-level (be it skill or character or both) player that simply has no idea what difficult content is like from the perspective of a better player that's tired of wasting hundreds of hours collectively trying to carry people like you.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

With enough reports, it is chat-bannable by Microsoft. However, I am glad it's not really actioned much, because the world we live in is so cancerously PC that nobody can take even the smallest amount of criticism without getting their feelings hurt and crying for the big meaniehead to be banned anymore.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

See #2.

If these changes were to take effect, I (and many others) would probably quit playing for good. Maybe instead of crying for these changes, you should just accept that people don't want to carry someone that is dead weight for one reason or another.

If these people quit along with you it would be a good thing imo.

Funnily enough everyone saying no are the problem people..

Aleris · May 2018

Absolutely not!

i've been playing for like 3 months and so far ive been kicked just once and it was in a dlc dungeon on normal when i was cp180 doing DD after we wiped on first boss.. it made me sad but no crying.. just did more grinding till i got to a better cp.. people want to have smooth runs doing pledges and such, i understand that.. as others pointed out then if i wanted to run dungeon being non really competent and with low CP then i would have to ask friends or guild mates.. that's it.
this system works fine.. sometimes i also have voted to kick cp 60 dd in veteran DLC dungeon because it's just right.. better than running veteran banished cell 2 with a *** tank super low level that at the ends of the dungeon after the first wipe because he's a noob ( we not talking just of cp but about how they run the things as well) said omg this is veteran i didn't know it.. sorry. and left .
see? should have just kicked that guy at start instead of giving him the chance carrying him for the entire dungeon

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · May 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

Honestly I think that the tool and system should be well rethought, yes. But the changes you suggest are all wrong on so many levels. Not only that, you don't even provide real use cases to support your points, which makes them even more weak.

1. Why should I not vote kick someone in the first 10 minutes? It's the very opposite instead: in the first 10 minutes yo ucan see how good a group is and decide changes accordingly. I don't like to kick someone based on his CP only. I want to see how people play and to do that I need some minute and some trash fight. If the tank has 16K health and does not taunt that's a good reason for me to kick him. If DPS is ridiculously low that it takes 3 minutes to clear the first trash that again is a good reason.

2. So according to your point, if a tank gets kicked because it was a cheater and he gets replaced by another cheater I cannot kick him? This would fuel cheating even more, because people would know they can queue up as whatever they want and not get kicked at all.

3. Verbally abusing is always an offense that may lead to a ban. If you think you are being verbally abused, take a screenshot, create an in-game ticket and also drop a line to customer care through the forums. If you don't yo uare responsible of these abuses too.

4. Why should I get a penalty when it is my right to vote kick? Then you should get a 24h penalty if you queue up as a tank when you are not.

I see a lot of frustration in your message, typical of a low CP/DPS.

If a vote kick fails, whoever started it should be removed from the group.
People should avoid doing content they can't face.
People should avoid queuing up for roles they won't / can't cover.

So as you can see, things would be a lot better if people themselves would start behaving with a little more common sense and respect for everybody's time.

swirve · May 2018

Other( see comments)

Fake role queuers and being forced to endure them or be penalised is a bigger issue.

The carry me entitlement of stopping ppl from leaving is bad.

Grabmoore · May 2018

Stinkyremy wrote: »

"You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline."
great so fake tanks and CP10s can queue for vet WGT and you are screwed, leaving gives you a 15 min ban...
nice logic.... (sarcasm)

You don't need a real tank anyways. CP 10 can't random queue anymore, if I remember correctly. If you can't carry randoms, you should stop using group finder. Seems you are the weak link and need to L2P or run with friends.

Feanor · May 2018

Absolutely not!

No system whatsoever can stop people being jerks. Also you have to take the other way round into account: If vote kicks are too restrictive you get stuck with people who are just looking for an easy carry or like to troll groups.

The best solution - as always - is to run with friends or guild mates.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · May 2018

Grabmoore wrote: »

If you can't carry randoms, you should stop using group finder. Seems you are the weak link and need to L2P or run with friends.

You can't carry randoms is very questionable. Not necessarily I:

Have the time to carry you.
Have the willingness to carry you.
Have the power to carry you. Which doesn't mean I am not able to face this content.

If you wan't to get carried ask your friends to get you a Zaan mask.
Random groups should be fun. They don't have to be assassin's no deaths runs. But they should not even be a pain in the a$$.

SugaComa · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

I got kicked once for queing as a DD on a magplar with a message that simply read ... "You a healer you Cnt" I thought ... Am I ... I only have three heals slotted and they all do damage primarily first ... Second we have not even moved to the first mob

So yes I'm in agreement with some changes

No kicks till after the first boss or first boss wipe

This will help determine the groups synergy better

Second no cool down if you instigate or vote yes to kick for queing but a cool down of 30 minutes to initiate a second kick ... This gives plenty of time for them to decide to see how the new player is or they can leave and requeue

Now to counter the whole timer issues

The crown can select requeue instead of kick, and select players to requeue if the select yes they are removed from the dungeon and the remaining player gets crown and option to bring in a new group

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · May 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

No kicks till after the first boss or first boss wipe
This will help determine the groups synergy better
Second no cool down if you instigate or vote yes to kick for queing but a cool down of 30 minutes to initiate a second kick ... This gives plenty of time for them to decide to see how the new player is or they can leave and requeue

Do you understand that 1. sometimes groups take 5 minutes to clear the first trash, so that getting to the first boss could take a lot of time; and 2. that in 30 minutes yo uare supposed to haev cleared the dungeon or be near the end of it already? I'm queuing up to play a random dungeon with you, not to spend the whole weekend together in a cave.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

The majority of time, it works and serves its proper purpose. You're going to run into the occasional ***. It is, after all, an MMO.

You're wanting to invert the system so three players get penalized instead of one. 30 minute cooldown, after complete? Most dungeons don't take that long start to finish in the first place, and why should other group members get penalized for someone that can't or won't perform their role?

What about when the overall group makeup isn't sufficient to clear the content? Sometimes it's no one person's fault. Sometimes is simply someone having a bad day or group fatigue or *** game connection, or one of a hundred non-player-controllable things?

If you think the queue is bad now, wait until you are obligated to beat your head against a wall for the first 10 minute no-kick cooldown. If you flat out leave, it's a 15 minute penalty.

Your idea by itself is not enough. There would have to be a 'reason' justification that got logged, for one, and a ratings system for the players/roles, for another.

Fake tank enough times, and it will show in both. Get enough 'demerits' and perhaps you're not able to queue as that role for a while, or enter that content.

On the other hand, if you're a L30/CP100 badass that can mechanic for days, take advice and instruction, and adjust to the situation, you deserve to be a 4 start rating.

Quantity matter too. If you've cleared hard content once, maybe you're that good? Maybe you had an exceptional group? Maybe the boss bugged out and there were no mechanics to speak of? If you've cleared it 10 times, 100 times, or more, they I'd say the pattern indicates you're probably fairly proficient with what you do.

I've got 1000's of clears on all kinds of four man. I don't automatically remove someone based on CP's, level, or even build most of the time.

New to the dungeon? No problem. I'll explain all day long. Coordinating with the group to offer group suggestions on how to proceed differently is part of experience. You're method is essentially asking to take that tool away?

If you think people will leave on their own accord or agree with the reason something isn''t possible, you have far more faith in human nature than I do. I've seen the *** that try to aggro the boss before they get removed because they couldn't perform.

RDF could then group people with the option of tiers. If you want to be grouped with anyone, use as is. Want to be grouped with similarly experienced people, for a number of reasons, check that as well.

In either case, don't punish the 90+% of the time were a kick is justified or you'll quickly find no one running RDF at all.

I'm not going to linger in BC I for sixty minutes because of unnecessary penalty because a healer can't heal, a bow tank with no taunt, or DPS that can't burn the centipedes and rats placed there for aesthetic reasons. No one is.

If you're truly having that much trouble

Group with people you know first, then queue. You still get the buffs and bonus XP, even with a 4 man premade.
Group at a different time of day. Notice you see the same names in zone during certain times? Wait a bit and you're going to be less likely to get paired up with those people.
Be honest and truly look at the reason behind the kick or the vote. Is the person listening, helping the group, actually doing their job to the best of their ability? If not, even if that person is you, then perhaps that is what needs to be looked into.

A ratings system would help, even though it would still be trolled by some. In the end, the overall consensus for a player, combined with the quantity of clears and achievements would start to tell the true tale.

Until they make a 'certification,' a gauntlet to prove you can do your role, and even methods to help you improve it, something like this would be just as abused as they very thing you seek to remedy. (Achieve's are the next closest thing, aside from players knowing players, which is why they are asked for or offered up for some content.)

I understand your frustration (I've gotten kicked for assumptions made by the group before, too. I laugh it off, because I could have provided experience and ability that they could have benefited from, but I make note and ensure they never will.), but this is not the solution.

Incidentally, a lot of max level characters occasionally run RDF for the XP bonus, but more often simply for something to do. They do it to help out other groups. If they start getting burned as a result, either by cooldowns or by being forced to stay with a certain incapably groupmember, they simply won't bother anymore.

Meld777 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

I fully agree with all proposed changes. They would make the group finder experience much less toxic.

Violynne · May 2018

Other( see comments)

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

PUG setup should be based on a punch sheet. Those looking to run a dungeon would set up a PUG request, and then fill in requirements for the slots the maker wants filled. For example, they may create 3 slots of DPS, or 2 slots DPS, 1 slot Healer, etc.

Example of a punch sheets:
First one:
Slot Leader: Tank - CP720 - 6 runs of Veteran
Slot 2: Healer - CP720 - Minimum of 2 runs of Veteran
Slot 3: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs of Veteran
Slot 1: DPS - CP720 - Minimum of 5 runs Veteran
Purpose: Loot

Second one:
Slot Leader: DPS - CP50 - No experience
Slot 2: Any - no minimum
Slot 3: Any - no minimum
Slot 4: Any - no minimum
Purpose: Learning/Experience

This would allow players to apply to a punch sheet. The PUG maker can then opt to accept or deny the recipient.

The game would verify the number of runs done by the player to ensure the minimum is met.

Once the PUG is formed, no group members can be kicked. If the leader leaves because they're dissatisfied with their selection, a 1 week penalty would be applied. PUG leaders should never quit the group they personally selected.

Players should also be allowed a personal rating list of every other player they grouped with. They can then rate the other players from 1-5 stars, so that if they see these players grouped in future PUGs, they can determine if they want to join with that player again and the star system will remind them of their worth to the group

This list is only viewable to the player and does not affect the PUG system nor is it a rating average system. Each rating is visible only to the person's list. This will help people so they don't join a group with a player they didn't like.

Once the PUG is formed, the punch list is set up to accept. Each player must either accept the group or leave it (without punishment, as this is done before entering the dungeon). Once all accepted, the group is formed.

With this system, everyone takes responsibility for their own grouping. Vote kicks are removed from the game, and anyone who leaves the group is served a 48 hour penalty. Sorry, but if you have a bad internet connection and got kicked that way, you have to accept this punishment because a bad internet connection isn't fair to the rest of the group.

This system would be fair to everyone.

Randomizing a group of people and hoping for a good outcome has never worked out well.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · May 2018

Violynne wrote: »

Once the PUG is formed, no group members can be kicked. If the leader leaves because they're dissatisfied with their selection, a 1 week penalty would be applied. PUG leaders should never quit the group they personally selected

So if I am the leader of a group and Real Life happens, say my daughter has her nose bleeding, I should tell her to sit and wait because else I get a one week ban from dungeons?

Do you ever walk outside home?

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

Then, no offense, but you can't possibly understand either extreme of the situation.

The fact that you're asking for 48hr / 1wk penalties makes this quite obvious.

And the odds of getting the same individual somewhere down the line in another random is minor - the client-viewable only list would have to be huge, and would probably never get accessed.

The really good bad ones get /ignored. The really good ones get guild invites and friend requests.

fossoyer · May 2018

Maybe Zos should add a checkbox "HM mode" on group finder.

I never kick people because, if i am with a PUG, I let them a chance on first boss, after I quit because I have lot of car on my account to restart a search.

If I play with my friends, we dont kick a weak PU ; because we dont really need him, using finder give lot of dmg bound, that's enough for us.

For DLC, I only play with friends/guild.

Violynne · May 2018

Other( see comments)

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I've not used the dungeon finder tool, but it appears to me it needs some work.

Then, no offense, but you can't possibly understand either extreme of the situation.

The fact that you're asking for 48hr / 1wk penalties makes this quite obvious.

I'm not asking for anything. I merely proposed a change in the current system.

Those times were just numbers I threw out there. Don't like them? Change them.

And the odds of getting the same individual somewhere down the line in another random is minor - the client-viewable only list would have to be huge, and would probably never get accessed.

Of course the same person isn't the issue. The same type of player is.

The really good bad ones get /ignored. The really good ones get guild invites and friend requests.

Neither of these fix the issue of the PUG.

The idea is to PREVENT group votes/kicks, right?

Wouldn't a system set up where people pick their groups be the better solution?